11 ms·

Revolut staff claim they’ve been told to quit their jobs or be fired

223 points by headalgorithm 6y ago

metalliqaz 6y ago
Being from the US it wasn't immediately clear to me why they would do this. Found the relevant part of the article: > In Poland, workers say they were told by their line managers and HR that they were underperforming and would be terminated if they didn’t leave voluntarily. But in Portugal mutual agreements stated that dismissals were a result of a reduction of 40 per cent in the group’s activity and a 30 per cent excess in staff numbers. By getting employees to voluntarily leave, Revolut has avoided launching a group redundancy consultation, that, among other things would give employees the right to severance payments and the chance to be offered alternative roles within the company. “[Mutual agreement] is better for Revolut because they can’t go to labour court [employment tribunal],” says the source from the HR department. “The way they prepare the terminations are so bad that if someone would go to court Revolut would lose,” the source claims.
- joncrane 6y ago
  Sounds like the employees should go to court, then.
  - frei 6y ago
    It sounds like the employees are foreigners who are probably unfamiliar with the polish legal system, with no income or health insurance as more pressing issues.
    - avianlyric 6y ago
      > It sounds like the employees are foreigners who are probably unfamiliar with the polish legal system I would be a little surprised if this was true. One of the big reasons for Western European companies to hire in Poland is because Eastern European countries are very cheap. For most Western European companies, Polish people _are_ the foreigners (along with all the unfair preconceptions and prejudices that comes with that).
      - hrydgard 6y ago
        Just like many Polish people work in say England or Sweden, Ukrainians work in Poland. Exactly the same dynamic.
      - snappieT 6y ago
        Did you read the article? It specifically mentions that the Polish office has workers from India, Chile and Italy
      - dantondwa 6y ago
        Actually, it is exceptionally easy as a foreigner to find a job in Poland and there’s a very big demand for them. Many multinationals move their seats to Poland for this. As a foreigner, you generally get higher than the Polish average salaries but still lower than in other countries.
- Klinky 6y ago
  I automatically assumed this was a ploy to dodge unemployment/redundancy benefits for employees. This also happens in the US. Much harder to get benefits if you voluntarily quit versus get fired or laid off.
  - loeg 6y ago
    Which is why US companies sometimes pay people to voluntarily retire instead of laying them off.
    - xsmasher 6y ago
      I was curious what the benefit was to the company if the unemployment insurance is already paid (sunk cost) so I looked it up - > Employers with more unemployment claims against them will pay a higher rate, and employers with fewer claims will pay less.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    Yes, indirectly. Businesses in the US generally have to pay into unemployment "premiums" to the appropriate state labor dept. If the business has a lot of terminations, then its premiums go up. However, employees resigning doesn't result in higher unemployment premiums because those employees aren't eligible for unemployment benefits. However, forcing employees to resign instead of be fired is a huge labor law violation, and in many states also constitutes unemployment fraud. On top of paying fines to the state labor dept, at a minimum you'd be paying employees for lost wages due to the unlawful terminations (or lost UE benefits)...and if the company is stupid enough to fight this in court, usually a much larger settlement or award for employees' financial losses plus treble damages (aka punitive damages). Usually ends up costing the company 10x of what they thought they would save.
- avianlyric 6y ago
  I find this approach really weird. I’m not sure about Poland, but at least in the the UK, for a mutual agreement (or settlement agreement) to be valid, the employee _must_ receive independent legal guidance. Anything else and the dismissal would be completely illegal. I’m not sure, but I would guess the Poland has similar or equivalent worker protections (the EU is generally pretty hot on worker protection). Which means that Revolut are opening themselves up to quite a bit future legal liability and pain. Doubly now that it’s in the press and there’s probably lawyers who see an opportunity to earn a paycheque and do some public good.
  - toyg 6y ago
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the end that obligation is on you - so you can just sign the bit that says "I declare that I received independent advice" and the other party is fine. If you then turn around and say "but it was a lie!" the company can just put their hands up, it's not their problem.
    - avianlyric 6y ago
      In the UK the company needs to get certification from the provider of the independent legal advice, otherwise the agreement is void. Normal behaviour is for the company to pay for the legal advice up to some reasonable limit.
  - jacekm 6y ago
    In Poland legal consultation is not required and parting ways via mutual agreement is common here. While this system is often abused by companies there are many cases where it benefits employees too.
- loeg 6y ago
  In the US it isn't immediately obvious why it would work, either. As a worker you're much better off being laid off than quitting. "Firing" when it is pretty flagrantly just a mass lay-off shouldn't impact future hiring.
  - Ozzie_osman 6y ago
    I've seen a lot of hiring managers miss out on great candidates because they assume that someone laid off probably wasn't a top performer ("if they were, the company would have found a way to keep them"). Of course, reality is great people do get laid off when companies draw really broad lines like "everyone hired within the past year" or "the entire division of X". Or sometimes it's just being on the wrong side of your manager, director, or whoever is making the decision. Hell, sometimes it's "all the people who we felt were at risk of leaving in the next few months anyway". But the other reason companies in the US do this is to shield against liability. If you are terminated, you could later claim wrongful termination. While if you resign, it's much harder.
    - throwaway-asdz9 6y ago
      SWE @ Lyft: Just one data point, but we went through a layoff last month. Every person I knew closely who was laid off had one or more weak performance reviews in the last year. Not saying this is always the case, but there is some truth in this concern that might make hiring managers weary.
      - Ozzie_osman 6y ago
        Sure. Like any generalization, there is always some truth. But it's still a generalization. Also, generally, well-run companies don't need covid-like events to cull the herd. They're managing low-performers out regularly.
    - loeg 6y ago
      > I've seen a lot of hiring managers miss out on great candidates because they assume that someone laid off probably wasn't a top performer The distinction I was trying to draw was between firing-for-cause and layoffs; I believe there is more negative association with the former. > But the other reason companies in the US do this is to shield against liability. If you are terminated, you could later claim wrongful termination. While if you resign, it's much harder. Pretty hard to claim wrongful termination for a non-cause layoff in the US with typical at-will employment.
- ornornor 6y ago
  Why would any employee take that deal though? When would it make sense to have your employer tell you to quit because they don’t want to lay you off and you just do it??
  - jacekm 6y ago
    A company may threaten with disciplinary dismissal which in theory could diminish your prospects on the job market. I never heard of this being an actual problem (unless your position requires background checks) but maybe I just work in an industry that doesn't care about this stuff.
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  I don't know about Poland, but in most EU countries you can not just fire someone and stop paying them. There is a termination period the length of which is relative to the time they were employed at the company. After an initial 'trial' period of typically 6 months, during which both parties can end the contract without notice, the notice period can run between 3 to 24 months for the employer, and 1 to 6 months for the employee. While in case of a firing the employee is in theory still working during that period, in practice most knowledge or commercial workers are cut from access to the company's premises and systems the second after the firing meeting. Companies try to avoid having to pay salary during the termination period by pressuring employees to sign a voluntary immediate mutual contract ending agreement.
hootbootscoot 6y ago
Why on earth would anyone voluntarily quit, particularly as in Portugal you will be eligable for unemployment benefits from having been laid-off, vs quitting and not being eligable for the same. Call their bluff. (I live in Portugal, and some foolish bosses tried the same and were rebuffed. FWIW the gov't agreed to pay 60% of the workers benefits during the lockdown in an effort to stem layoffs and furloughs etc.)
- docdeek 6y ago
  Is there a difference in Portugal between being laid off (for economic reasons) and being fired (for underperforming or misconduct)? I got the impression, perhaps mistaken, that the choice for some of the workers referenced in the article was get fired or take this meager deal.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    They could be using the old HR blackmail trick from the book where if you agree to leave they promise to give you an awesome letter of recommendation whereas if you let them fire you for underperforming reasons they'll give you a iffy sounding letter of recommendation.
  - lexa1979 6y ago
    Don't know for Portugal, but in Belgium "underperforming" is also an economic reason, you get the social security protection. Misconduct on the other hand gets you suspended from govt protection for some times.
  - galfarragem 6y ago
    In Portugal being laid off means (aproximately) getting 2 thirds of your sallary (one third payed by state and one third payed by the employer) and hope to get back to work. Being fired means getting 80%(?) of your sallary and possibly a severance IF you have worked continuosly for at least 6 months AND have a dependent work contract (or equivalent). If you quit you get nothing.
    - 6y ago
joelbluminator 6y ago
Winter is coming...
hypnotist 6y ago
it is just sad to see the same tactics(people being bullied into "mutual agreement") used now as in 90s in Eastern Europe. that is good enough reason to not use their product at all. I am sure there is plenty of capable competitors.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  I've seen the same tactics used in Germany as well. Basically the HR rep and their line manager call them in a meeting room and play good cop - bad cop so they end up just signing whatever the good cop says is "best" for them. That's why lots of companies here love hiring young expats sine they're easy to abuse like this as they're new in the country, don't have anyone to ask for help, don't know the language, don't know the law, don't qualify yet for unemployment and can't afford a lawyer and are emotionally vulnerable so they'll blindly sign whatever HR gives them and focus on finding a new job ASAP instead of fighting them in court. It's one of the reasons I avoid working in companies that focus on hiring mostly expats.
ddon 6y ago
Revolut is really scary organization... used them for a year or so, and then one day locked my account... harassed me for 6 months, asking for all sorts of documents, which I provided them. then one day, they closed my account, and sent back 2K balance to random people who sent me money in the past. When contacted them via twitter, the blocked my the same day :)
- kkarpkkarp 6y ago
  My story with revolut is one day, without warning before, when I opened the app, I'd seen info to update it before I do anything with my money. And in Google Store there was no newer release for my version of Android. The only way to complain is to do this in-app so I was not able to do even this. Basically, I was cut off my money, completely. After two days I found on their site a form to cancel my account. Which was still not easy, before this they tried to keep me as a customer (suggesting for example to buy newer phone :) )
- saos 6y ago
  Yeah I knew they were a little farfetched when I saw their head of engineering job spec https://web.archive.org/web/20200406205828/https://jobs.lever.co/revolut/7445f477-6ba8-43e8-ab50-fa61cb303630 https://web.archive.org/web/20200406205828/https://jobs.leve... > School/university Olympic medal in competitions in physics, maths or programming :/
  - lucisferre 6y ago
    • 10+ years as an engineer • Minimum GPA 3.5/4 (US), 60% (UK), 8/10 in any other country "So we know you've been out of school for 10 years, but can you send us a copy of your report cards?"
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      Well I had "we know you've been out of school over 20 years, but we really need to know which exam boards you did your age-16 English literature exam with before we'll interview you for this science degree requiring position ... that we previously employed you for". Thankfully I quite enjoy hunting down lost information but I was not impressed with the HR personnel in that one.
klmadfejno 6y ago
It sounds like these people were pressured into making a decision under tense circumstances (QUIT IN THE NEXT 30 MINUTES OR YOU GET NOTHING). In the US this could probably qualify for nullification as it was made under duress. Don't know anything about Poland.
- newacct583 6y ago
  In the US it probably constitutes criminal fraud, as it's a transparent attempt to evade unemployment benefits. Again, though, Poland and the EU may be different.
  - boudewijnrempt 6y ago
    It's definitely illegal if the employee was a EU citizen, but I'm not sure whether that's also the case if the employee isn't.
    - pas 6y ago
      Are there EU-wide labor protection laws?
- MichaelApproved 6y ago
  Duress is a high bar and I don’t think it would apply here.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    Being cornered in a closed office by two employees, handing you a legal paper and ordering you to sign it immediately, is not duress?
nkingsy 6y ago
They also successfully pressured over 60% of their staff into exchanging salary for twice the value in options. I've worked for dysfunctional companies, but I guess I'm lucky I haven't run into management trying to steal from me.
- objclxt 6y ago
  Any time a company asks you to forgo cash compensation for stock you should start preparing an exit strategy: this is doubly true if the stock isn't liquid. I once worked at a unicorn that a week before bonuses were due to be paid changed them from cash to immediately vesting RSUs. Six months later they were filing for Chapter 11.
- technorally 6y ago
  Get this: before announcing the salary trade-off option, they already gave negative feedback to people in positions they were looking to cut. Then they announced the salary exchange option as an opt-in for the entire company, saying that if people trade at least 30% of salary across the board they wouldn't lay anyone off. You could opt to trade anywhere from 1% to your entire salary for 2x pre-Covid stock valuation. People who were concerned about getting laid off traded more as a result. Some of them were laid off anyways after working for reduced salary.
dede4metal 6y ago
I want to close my account but is transferwise any better?
- hocuspocus 6y ago
  I believe so: * Transferwise has been profitable for a little while now. * Their pricing if fairly transparent and they're always upfront when they need to increase some fees. I could be wrong, but it looks like they're trying to stay competitive but not take part in a race to the bottom. * They haven't been trying to recruit new customers as aggressively as Revolut. * Their MasterCard is a little bit more lenient with offline transactions, which can sometimes be a problem with Revolut. * On the other hand, the mobile app is a bit bland. It does the job, but the UX isn't as good.
  - derencius 6y ago
    I just had my TransferWise account closed during a transfer to pay rent while overseas. They are holding some of my money, with no perspective of returning it. They say they can't disclose the reasons, leaving you helpless. I'd advise to be cautions with transferwise as well. https://transferwise.com/help/24/technical-issues/2961844/why-was-my-account-deactivated https://transferwise.com/help/24/technical-issues/2961844/wh...
    - stavros 6y ago
      I had the same experience, I tried to make a transfer of $100 or so and they just closed my account with no explanation, and I've never been able to open another one since. They did refund everything, though.
    - maccard 6y ago
      If there's a suspicion of money laundering, you won't get any information from any financial institution, FWIW.
- raincom 6y ago
  Yes, if you are not sending money to the third world countries often.
richardARPANET 6y ago
It's a well-known fact the Revolut CEO is a spoiled baby and a douche. I blacklisted their company long ago due to this.
mdavis6890 6y ago
The companies behavior was indeed poor, but I wonder how many people realize that laws that make it hard to reduce your workforce lead to this bad behavior. Business needs change all the time, and being able to adjust your workforce in response is critical. Not being able to do that can be very costly for both the business owners and employees in the long run, or even the short run if the business has revenue or cash-flow problems.
- zentiggr 6y ago
  Sounds like all they had to do was give people proper departure operations, and although they would have not saved as much expense, they would have avoided looking like amoral jerks and maybe even avoided a bunch of labor lawsuits in various places. Just treat people decently, and you don't have to be painted as callous bastards.
- flohofwoe 6y ago
  Maybe companies which build their business on a high employee turnover and are incapable of any long-term planning shouldn't exist in the first place?
- chucky 6y ago
  Alternatively, companies need to accept that being able to adjust your workforce is costly and account for that. This is not something new for them. Revolut knew damn well what the labor laws looked like when they opened their Poland offices. Following laws and regulations is part of the cost of doing business. There's no need to make excuses for companies that fail at doing this.
- frei 6y ago
  If the bad behavior is skirting the labor reduction laws, we should get rid of the labor reduction laws to reduce bad behavior? This argument doesn't make sense to me.
  - Sharlin 6y ago
    You see, you cannot skirt a law if there is no such law.
rb808 6y ago
I dont understand how these new startup banks can stay in business. Previously banks could make money on the deposits in check accounts, now with negative rates they can only lose. Even big European banks are slowly dying.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  They make all their money on the "value add" services. Things like insurance, loans, cryptocurrencies, fees for a shiny metal card, etc. Even so, I can't see how they can afford ~1,000 support agents employed with only ~1,000,000 daily customers. I don't want to pay 0.1% of my income to pay for tech support for my bank account!
- pavlov 6y ago
  It's like WeWork. These "fintech" companies are primarily in the business of taking money from giant investors who have too much cash (Softbank, Saudi Arabian sovereign wealth fund etc.) These investors love to make oversized bets in WeWork-style startups which are actually just tech-colored lipstick on an old unprofitable industry, because it ticks the boxes on their "disruption" checklists.
  - Ayesh 6y ago
    Yep! These companies have quite deep pockets but they systematically ruin the opportunities for smaller players to make an organic growth. Most of the "Uber, but for *" startups get funding with these companies, and I don't even feel bad about using their 60% off codes if 8t provides something I'd pay otherwise anyway. When the promotions stop, I stop using the app too.
- avianlyric 6y ago
  You would be amazed at how much money a bank can make on card interchange (the fee they earn on every card transaction you make). Also most central banks don’t have negative base rates, so some money can still be earned from deposit interest. But COVID has of course slashed that revenue stream.
hermitcrab 6y ago
Their have been various articles from credible sources over the last year or two making it clear that they are a really shitty company. You would be crazy to trust them with either your money or your career.
- philjohn 6y ago
  I've heard anecdotally that they promised a certain level to a new starter and then upon starting he'd been down-levelled. This was second hand information, so I can't verify, but I have also heard bad things about them.
- hermitcrab 6y ago
  Here is one reference: "But former Revolut employees say this high-speed growth has come at a high human cost – with unpaid work, unachievable targets, and high-staff turnover." https://www.wired.co.uk/article/revolut-trade-unions-labour-fintech-politics-storonsky https://www.wired.co.uk/article/revolut-trade-unions-labour-... Their CEO sounds like scumbag of the first order.
wastedhours 6y ago
Everything that comes out of Revolut internally sounds horrific. I applied and was offered an interview, upon further research into how they work I pulled out of the process immediately. They push their employees to breaking point (and with this, seemingly beyond). I'm so glad I didn't pursue that avenue, and feel so sorry for those caught up in this.
DrBazza 6y ago
“Primarily, it starts with their CEO Nikolay [Storonsky] being very vocal about their mentality, that if you do a 9-5 [workday] it won't work out...everything he has said is a recipe for burnout” says Stevie Buckley, co-founder of Honest Work and HR advisor to dozens of startups. https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/3/18248826/revolut-workplace-culture-burnout-finance-app-reports https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/3/18248826/revolut-workplace... https://www.wired.co.uk/article/revolut-trade-unions-labour-fintech-politics-storonsky https://www.wired.co.uk/article/revolut-trade-unions-labour-...
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Never trust a founder who claims that extraordinary work effort is the key; they stand to reap the rewards while the costs accumulate downwards. You have to have significant equity (not options) before the risk/reward works out in your favor.
- zkid18 6y ago
  probably 9to5 state of mind employees not a good fit for a growing startup. Not trying to defend burnout culture rather than job-to-be-done approach.
sdgjhfdlkgjhdf 6y ago
By the way, anyone knows a competitor to Revolut that respect privacy (online banking, able to send/receive other currencies easily). I would love to switch but it is hard to find anyone actually better from a privacy point of view.
- longtermdd 6y ago
  N26 could be interesting
- philjohn 6y ago
  Transferwise - they also have a borderless Mastercard. I use them to bring proceeds of RSU's back to the UK (0.6% commission on mid-market rate).
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    To mention my experience, for some reason whenever I try to open an account with them, they lock it without telling me why. They've put me on some sort of blacklist without any explanation, and all I ever tried to do with them is send $100 from one of my accounts to another.
    - ddalex 6y ago
      I must have transferred multiple 10K s for various reasons and didn't have any problem with them. Monzo is amazing in UK, but they don't support larger EU :(
AlexandrB 6y ago
> “I thought maybe I should speak to another institution for legal advice because I am a foreigner,” Elena says. “[But] they said I had no additional time and that I have 30 minutes to make this decision.” Really nasty tactics. Impossible to understand the consequences of what you're signing in that short of a time.
- mnw21cam 6y ago
  Correction: Really illegal tactics.
obayesshelton 6y ago
The legs are falling off the unicorn... which one will be the next WeWork.
hogFeast 6y ago
Presumably this is legal in Poland...but the company is from the UK, this is obviously illegal in the UK, and it looks terrible. Shame. Shame. Shame. Even worse, they are a bank. Who would trust their money to people who behave this way?
technorally 6y ago
My boyfriend manages a team at Revolut, and half of them just got laid off despite him fighting to keep them on since shutdown started, when he was prompted to fill out performance reviews. Some of them were hired within the past half year, were on a trial period, and let go the day before the end so they wouldn't receive severance packages. All of them were told it was due to their performance, even though he placed them all at high-performing in his reviews, so that the company can fudge their numbers on covid-related layoffs.

223 points by headalgorithm 6y ago

Being from the US it wasn't immediately clear to me why they would do this. Found the relevant part of the article: > In Poland, workers say they were told by their line managers and HR that they were underperforming and would be terminated if they didn’t leave voluntarily. But in Portugal mutual agreements stated that dismissals were a result of a reduction of 40 per cent in the group’s activity and a 30 per cent excess in staff numbers. By getting employees to voluntarily leave, Revolut has avoided launching a group redundancy consultation, that, among other things would give employees the right to severance payments and the chance to be offered alternative roles within the company. “[Mutual agreement] is better for Revolut because they can’t go to labour court [employment tribunal],” says the source from the HR department. “The way they prepare the terminations are so bad that if someone would go to court Revolut would lose,” the source claims.

joncrane 6y ago
Sounds like the employees should go to court, then.
- frei 6y ago
  It sounds like the employees are foreigners who are probably unfamiliar with the polish legal system, with no income or health insurance as more pressing issues.
  - avianlyric 6y ago
    > It sounds like the employees are foreigners who are probably unfamiliar with the polish legal system I would be a little surprised if this was true. One of the big reasons for Western European companies to hire in Poland is because Eastern European countries are very cheap. For most Western European companies, Polish people _are_ the foreigners (along with all the unfair preconceptions and prejudices that comes with that).
    - hrydgard 6y ago
      Just like many Polish people work in say England or Sweden, Ukrainians work in Poland. Exactly the same dynamic.
    - snappieT 6y ago
      Did you read the article? It specifically mentions that the Polish office has workers from India, Chile and Italy
    - dantondwa 6y ago
      Actually, it is exceptionally easy as a foreigner to find a job in Poland and there’s a very big demand for them. Many multinationals move their seats to Poland for this. As a foreigner, you generally get higher than the Polish average salaries but still lower than in other countries.
Klinky 6y ago
I automatically assumed this was a ploy to dodge unemployment/redundancy benefits for employees. This also happens in the US. Much harder to get benefits if you voluntarily quit versus get fired or laid off.
- loeg 6y ago
  Which is why US companies sometimes pay people to voluntarily retire instead of laying them off.
  - xsmasher 6y ago
    I was curious what the benefit was to the company if the unemployment insurance is already paid (sunk cost) so I looked it up - > Employers with more unemployment claims against them will pay a higher rate, and employers with fewer claims will pay less.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  Yes, indirectly. Businesses in the US generally have to pay into unemployment "premiums" to the appropriate state labor dept. If the business has a lot of terminations, then its premiums go up. However, employees resigning doesn't result in higher unemployment premiums because those employees aren't eligible for unemployment benefits. However, forcing employees to resign instead of be fired is a huge labor law violation, and in many states also constitutes unemployment fraud. On top of paying fines to the state labor dept, at a minimum you'd be paying employees for lost wages due to the unlawful terminations (or lost UE benefits)...and if the company is stupid enough to fight this in court, usually a much larger settlement or award for employees' financial losses plus treble damages (aka punitive damages). Usually ends up costing the company 10x of what they thought they would save.
avianlyric 6y ago
I find this approach really weird. I’m not sure about Poland, but at least in the the UK, for a mutual agreement (or settlement agreement) to be valid, the employee _must_ receive independent legal guidance. Anything else and the dismissal would be completely illegal. I’m not sure, but I would guess the Poland has similar or equivalent worker protections (the EU is generally pretty hot on worker protection). Which means that Revolut are opening themselves up to quite a bit future legal liability and pain. Doubly now that it’s in the press and there’s probably lawyers who see an opportunity to earn a paycheque and do some public good.
- toyg 6y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the end that obligation is on you - so you can just sign the bit that says "I declare that I received independent advice" and the other party is fine. If you then turn around and say "but it was a lie!" the company can just put their hands up, it's not their problem.
  - avianlyric 6y ago
    In the UK the company needs to get certification from the provider of the independent legal advice, otherwise the agreement is void. Normal behaviour is for the company to pay for the legal advice up to some reasonable limit.
- jacekm 6y ago
  In Poland legal consultation is not required and parting ways via mutual agreement is common here. While this system is often abused by companies there are many cases where it benefits employees too.
loeg 6y ago
In the US it isn't immediately obvious why it would work, either. As a worker you're much better off being laid off than quitting. "Firing" when it is pretty flagrantly just a mass lay-off shouldn't impact future hiring.
- Ozzie_osman 6y ago
  I've seen a lot of hiring managers miss out on great candidates because they assume that someone laid off probably wasn't a top performer ("if they were, the company would have found a way to keep them"). Of course, reality is great people do get laid off when companies draw really broad lines like "everyone hired within the past year" or "the entire division of X". Or sometimes it's just being on the wrong side of your manager, director, or whoever is making the decision. Hell, sometimes it's "all the people who we felt were at risk of leaving in the next few months anyway". But the other reason companies in the US do this is to shield against liability. If you are terminated, you could later claim wrongful termination. While if you resign, it's much harder.
  - throwaway-asdz9 6y ago
    SWE @ Lyft: Just one data point, but we went through a layoff last month. Every person I knew closely who was laid off had one or more weak performance reviews in the last year. Not saying this is always the case, but there is some truth in this concern that might make hiring managers weary.
    - Ozzie_osman 6y ago
      Sure. Like any generalization, there is always some truth. But it's still a generalization. Also, generally, well-run companies don't need covid-like events to cull the herd. They're managing low-performers out regularly.
  - loeg 6y ago
    > I've seen a lot of hiring managers miss out on great candidates because they assume that someone laid off probably wasn't a top performer The distinction I was trying to draw was between firing-for-cause and layoffs; I believe there is more negative association with the former. > But the other reason companies in the US do this is to shield against liability. If you are terminated, you could later claim wrongful termination. While if you resign, it's much harder. Pretty hard to claim wrongful termination for a non-cause layoff in the US with typical at-will employment.
ornornor 6y ago
Why would any employee take that deal though? When would it make sense to have your employer tell you to quit because they don’t want to lay you off and you just do it??
- jacekm 6y ago
  A company may threaten with disciplinary dismissal which in theory could diminish your prospects on the job market. I never heard of this being an actual problem (unless your position requires background checks) but maybe I just work in an industry that doesn't care about this stuff.
PeterStuer 6y ago
I don't know about Poland, but in most EU countries you can not just fire someone and stop paying them. There is a termination period the length of which is relative to the time they were employed at the company. After an initial 'trial' period of typically 6 months, during which both parties can end the contract without notice, the notice period can run between 3 to 24 months for the employer, and 1 to 6 months for the employee. While in case of a firing the employee is in theory still working during that period, in practice most knowledge or commercial workers are cut from access to the company's premises and systems the second after the firing meeting. Companies try to avoid having to pay salary during the termination period by pressuring employees to sign a voluntary immediate mutual contract ending agreement.

hootbootscoot 6y ago

Why on earth would anyone voluntarily quit, particularly as in Portugal you will be eligable for unemployment benefits from having been laid-off, vs quitting and not being eligable for the same. Call their bluff. (I live in Portugal, and some foolish bosses tried the same and were rebuffed. FWIW the gov't agreed to pay 60% of the workers benefits during the lockdown in an effort to stem layoffs and furloughs etc.)

docdeek 6y ago
Is there a difference in Portugal between being laid off (for economic reasons) and being fired (for underperforming or misconduct)? I got the impression, perhaps mistaken, that the choice for some of the workers referenced in the article was get fired or take this meager deal.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  They could be using the old HR blackmail trick from the book where if you agree to leave they promise to give you an awesome letter of recommendation whereas if you let them fire you for underperforming reasons they'll give you a iffy sounding letter of recommendation.
- lexa1979 6y ago
  Don't know for Portugal, but in Belgium "underperforming" is also an economic reason, you get the social security protection. Misconduct on the other hand gets you suspended from govt protection for some times.
- galfarragem 6y ago
  In Portugal being laid off means (aproximately) getting 2 thirds of your sallary (one third payed by state and one third payed by the employer) and hope to get back to work. Being fired means getting 80%(?) of your sallary and possibly a severance IF you have worked continuosly for at least 6 months AND have a dependent work contract (or equivalent). If you quit you get nothing.
  - 6y ago

joelbluminator 6y ago

Winter is coming...

hypnotist 6y ago

it is just sad to see the same tactics(people being bullied into "mutual agreement") used now as in 90s in Eastern Europe. that is good enough reason to not use their product at all. I am sure there is plenty of capable competitors.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
I've seen the same tactics used in Germany as well. Basically the HR rep and their line manager call them in a meeting room and play good cop - bad cop so they end up just signing whatever the good cop says is "best" for them. That's why lots of companies here love hiring young expats sine they're easy to abuse like this as they're new in the country, don't have anyone to ask for help, don't know the language, don't know the law, don't qualify yet for unemployment and can't afford a lawyer and are emotionally vulnerable so they'll blindly sign whatever HR gives them and focus on finding a new job ASAP instead of fighting them in court. It's one of the reasons I avoid working in companies that focus on hiring mostly expats.

ddon 6y ago

Revolut is really scary organization... used them for a year or so, and then one day locked my account... harassed me for 6 months, asking for all sorts of documents, which I provided them. then one day, they closed my account, and sent back 2K balance to random people who sent me money in the past. When contacted them via twitter, the blocked my the same day :)

kkarpkkarp 6y ago
My story with revolut is one day, without warning before, when I opened the app, I'd seen info to update it before I do anything with my money. And in Google Store there was no newer release for my version of Android. The only way to complain is to do this in-app so I was not able to do even this. Basically, I was cut off my money, completely. After two days I found on their site a form to cancel my account. Which was still not easy, before this they tried to keep me as a customer (suggesting for example to buy newer phone :) )
saos 6y ago
Yeah I knew they were a little farfetched when I saw their head of engineering job spec https://web.archive.org/web/20200406205828/https://jobs.lever.co/revolut/7445f477-6ba8-43e8-ab50-fa61cb303630 https://web.archive.org/web/20200406205828/https://jobs.leve... > School/university Olympic medal in competitions in physics, maths or programming :/
- lucisferre 6y ago
  • 10+ years as an engineer • Minimum GPA 3.5/4 (US), 60% (UK), 8/10 in any other country "So we know you've been out of school for 10 years, but can you send us a copy of your report cards?"
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    Well I had "we know you've been out of school over 20 years, but we really need to know which exam boards you did your age-16 English literature exam with before we'll interview you for this science degree requiring position ... that we previously employed you for". Thankfully I quite enjoy hunting down lost information but I was not impressed with the HR personnel in that one.

klmadfejno 6y ago

It sounds like these people were pressured into making a decision under tense circumstances (QUIT IN THE NEXT 30 MINUTES OR YOU GET NOTHING). In the US this could probably qualify for nullification as it was made under duress. Don't know anything about Poland.

newacct583 6y ago
In the US it probably constitutes criminal fraud, as it's a transparent attempt to evade unemployment benefits. Again, though, Poland and the EU may be different.
- boudewijnrempt 6y ago
  It's definitely illegal if the employee was a EU citizen, but I'm not sure whether that's also the case if the employee isn't.
  - pas 6y ago
    Are there EU-wide labor protection laws?
MichaelApproved 6y ago
Duress is a high bar and I don’t think it would apply here.
- user5994461 6y ago
  Being cornered in a closed office by two employees, handing you a legal paper and ordering you to sign it immediately, is not duress?

nkingsy 6y ago

They also successfully pressured over 60% of their staff into exchanging salary for twice the value in options. I've worked for dysfunctional companies, but I guess I'm lucky I haven't run into management trying to steal from me.

objclxt 6y ago
Any time a company asks you to forgo cash compensation for stock you should start preparing an exit strategy: this is doubly true if the stock isn't liquid. I once worked at a unicorn that a week before bonuses were due to be paid changed them from cash to immediately vesting RSUs. Six months later they were filing for Chapter 11.
technorally 6y ago
Get this: before announcing the salary trade-off option, they already gave negative feedback to people in positions they were looking to cut. Then they announced the salary exchange option as an opt-in for the entire company, saying that if people trade at least 30% of salary across the board they wouldn't lay anyone off. You could opt to trade anywhere from 1% to your entire salary for 2x pre-Covid stock valuation. People who were concerned about getting laid off traded more as a result. Some of them were laid off anyways after working for reduced salary.

dede4metal 6y ago

I want to close my account but is transferwise any better?

hocuspocus 6y ago
I believe so: * Transferwise has been profitable for a little while now. * Their pricing if fairly transparent and they're always upfront when they need to increase some fees. I could be wrong, but it looks like they're trying to stay competitive but not take part in a race to the bottom. * They haven't been trying to recruit new customers as aggressively as Revolut. * Their MasterCard is a little bit more lenient with offline transactions, which can sometimes be a problem with Revolut. * On the other hand, the mobile app is a bit bland. It does the job, but the UX isn't as good.
- derencius 6y ago
  I just had my TransferWise account closed during a transfer to pay rent while overseas. They are holding some of my money, with no perspective of returning it. They say they can't disclose the reasons, leaving you helpless. I'd advise to be cautions with transferwise as well. https://transferwise.com/help/24/technical-issues/2961844/why-was-my-account-deactivated https://transferwise.com/help/24/technical-issues/2961844/wh...
  - stavros 6y ago
    I had the same experience, I tried to make a transfer of $100 or so and they just closed my account with no explanation, and I've never been able to open another one since. They did refund everything, though.
  - maccard 6y ago
    If there's a suspicion of money laundering, you won't get any information from any financial institution, FWIW.
raincom 6y ago
Yes, if you are not sending money to the third world countries often.

richardARPANET 6y ago

It's a well-known fact the Revolut CEO is a spoiled baby and a douche. I blacklisted their company long ago due to this.

mdavis6890 6y ago

The companies behavior was indeed poor, but I wonder how many people realize that laws that make it hard to reduce your workforce lead to this bad behavior. Business needs change all the time, and being able to adjust your workforce in response is critical. Not being able to do that can be very costly for both the business owners and employees in the long run, or even the short run if the business has revenue or cash-flow problems.

zentiggr 6y ago
Sounds like all they had to do was give people proper departure operations, and although they would have not saved as much expense, they would have avoided looking like amoral jerks and maybe even avoided a bunch of labor lawsuits in various places. Just treat people decently, and you don't have to be painted as callous bastards.
flohofwoe 6y ago
Maybe companies which build their business on a high employee turnover and are incapable of any long-term planning shouldn't exist in the first place?
chucky 6y ago
Alternatively, companies need to accept that being able to adjust your workforce is costly and account for that. This is not something new for them. Revolut knew damn well what the labor laws looked like when they opened their Poland offices. Following laws and regulations is part of the cost of doing business. There's no need to make excuses for companies that fail at doing this.
frei 6y ago
If the bad behavior is skirting the labor reduction laws, we should get rid of the labor reduction laws to reduce bad behavior? This argument doesn't make sense to me.
- Sharlin 6y ago
  You see, you cannot skirt a law if there is no such law.

rb808 6y ago

I dont understand how these new startup banks can stay in business. Previously banks could make money on the deposits in check accounts, now with negative rates they can only lose. Even big European banks are slowly dying.

londons_explore 6y ago
They make all their money on the "value add" services. Things like insurance, loans, cryptocurrencies, fees for a shiny metal card, etc. Even so, I can't see how they can afford ~1,000 support agents employed with only ~1,000,000 daily customers. I don't want to pay 0.1% of my income to pay for tech support for my bank account!
pavlov 6y ago
It's like WeWork. These "fintech" companies are primarily in the business of taking money from giant investors who have too much cash (Softbank, Saudi Arabian sovereign wealth fund etc.) These investors love to make oversized bets in WeWork-style startups which are actually just tech-colored lipstick on an old unprofitable industry, because it ticks the boxes on their "disruption" checklists.
- Ayesh 6y ago
  Yep! These companies have quite deep pockets but they systematically ruin the opportunities for smaller players to make an organic growth. Most of the "Uber, but for *" startups get funding with these companies, and I don't even feel bad about using their 60% off codes if 8t provides something I'd pay otherwise anyway. When the promotions stop, I stop using the app too.
avianlyric 6y ago
You would be amazed at how much money a bank can make on card interchange (the fee they earn on every card transaction you make). Also most central banks don’t have negative base rates, so some money can still be earned from deposit interest. But COVID has of course slashed that revenue stream.

hermitcrab 6y ago

Their have been various articles from credible sources over the last year or two making it clear that they are a really shitty company. You would be crazy to trust them with either your money or your career.

philjohn 6y ago
I've heard anecdotally that they promised a certain level to a new starter and then upon starting he'd been down-levelled. This was second hand information, so I can't verify, but I have also heard bad things about them.
hermitcrab 6y ago
Here is one reference: "But former Revolut employees say this high-speed growth has come at a high human cost – with unpaid work, unachievable targets, and high-staff turnover." https://www.wired.co.uk/article/revolut-trade-unions-labour-fintech-politics-storonsky https://www.wired.co.uk/article/revolut-trade-unions-labour-... Their CEO sounds like scumbag of the first order.

wastedhours 6y ago

Everything that comes out of Revolut internally sounds horrific. I applied and was offered an interview, upon further research into how they work I pulled out of the process immediately. They push their employees to breaking point (and with this, seemingly beyond). I'm so glad I didn't pursue that avenue, and feel so sorry for those caught up in this.

DrBazza 6y ago

“Primarily, it starts with their CEO Nikolay [Storonsky] being very vocal about their mentality, that if you do a 9-5 [workday] it won't work out...everything he has said is a recipe for burnout” says Stevie Buckley, co-founder of Honest Work and HR advisor to dozens of startups. https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/3/18248826/revolut-workplace-culture-burnout-finance-app-reports https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/3/18248826/revolut-workplace... https://www.wired.co.uk/article/revolut-trade-unions-labour-fintech-politics-storonsky https://www.wired.co.uk/article/revolut-trade-unions-labour-...

ashtonkem 6y ago
Never trust a founder who claims that extraordinary work effort is the key; they stand to reap the rewards while the costs accumulate downwards. You have to have significant equity (not options) before the risk/reward works out in your favor.
zkid18 6y ago
probably 9to5 state of mind employees not a good fit for a growing startup. Not trying to defend burnout culture rather than job-to-be-done approach.

sdgjhfdlkgjhdf 6y ago

By the way, anyone knows a competitor to Revolut that respect privacy (online banking, able to send/receive other currencies easily). I would love to switch but it is hard to find anyone actually better from a privacy point of view.

longtermdd 6y ago
N26 could be interesting
philjohn 6y ago
Transferwise - they also have a borderless Mastercard. I use them to bring proceeds of RSU's back to the UK (0.6% commission on mid-market rate).
- StavrosK 6y ago
  To mention my experience, for some reason whenever I try to open an account with them, they lock it without telling me why. They've put me on some sort of blacklist without any explanation, and all I ever tried to do with them is send $100 from one of my accounts to another.
  - ddalex 6y ago
    I must have transferred multiple 10K s for various reasons and didn't have any problem with them. Monzo is amazing in UK, but they don't support larger EU :(

AlexandrB 6y ago

> “I thought maybe I should speak to another institution for legal advice because I am a foreigner,” Elena says. “[But] they said I had no additional time and that I have 30 minutes to make this decision.” Really nasty tactics. Impossible to understand the consequences of what you're signing in that short of a time.

mnw21cam 6y ago
Correction: Really illegal tactics.

obayesshelton 6y ago

The legs are falling off the unicorn... which one will be the next WeWork.

hogFeast 6y ago

Presumably this is legal in Poland...but the company is from the UK, this is obviously illegal in the UK, and it looks terrible. Shame. Shame. Shame. Even worse, they are a bank. Who would trust their money to people who behave this way?

technorally 6y ago

My boyfriend manages a team at Revolut, and half of them just got laid off despite him fighting to keep them on since shutdown started, when he was prompted to fill out performance reviews. Some of them were hired within the past half year, were on a trial period, and let go the day before the end so they wouldn't receive severance packages. All of them were told it was due to their performance, even though he placed them all at high-performing in his reviews, so that the company can fudge their numbers on covid-related layoffs.