10 ms·

I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are

by mikece 6y ago

I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are so deprived of essential vitamins and minerals that "treating" someone with what they have been missing causes the body to simply function the way it's supposed to. I haven't read the full study but if it takes into account what someone's diet was prior to this treatment as well as their vitamin and mineral levels (however that is measured) I think it would be more interesting to see how such a vitamin boost affects those who are vitamin starved versus those who were taking a "decent amount" of vitamins but where given a boost because of an illness. It just seems the more we learn in this field the more it shows us what we don't know.

Traubenfuchs 6y ago
You are right and it is no secret: - 40% of US Americans are B12 deficient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:text=B12%20deficiency%20is%20often%20perceived,are%20deficient%20in%20this%20nutrient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:.... - 42% are Vitamin D deficient: https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-americans-are-vitamin-d-deficient/#:~:text=42%25%20Percent%20of%20Americans%20Are%20Vitamin%20D%20Deficient https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-america.... - up to 50% are Magnesium deficient: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h... - 10 - 20% of women are iron deficient: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.html#:~:text=The%20prevalence%20of%20iron%20deficiency,a%20gastrointestinal%20cancer%20when%20evaluated https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.html#:~:text=The%20p.... My unscientific conclusion is that the vast majority of people world-wide probably suffer from at least one and probably more significant nutrient deficiency. With that we are wasting our "performance potential" and, less capitalistic, our "well-being potential". The lack of any of just those nutrients I looked up can cause anything from debilitating brain fog, over physical and mental deterioration to numerous physical ailments... Yet for most of them, taking them in excess causes the exact same problem. If I was filthy rich I would get nutrient levels measured once a week. (-;
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  Presumably it's relatively easy for a lab to run a panel of tests on me and say "you're deficient in X, Y, Z; try eating more A B C; spend 30mins extra a week outside; drink less alcohol". How easy is it too get such tests (in UK), I'm surprised we don't seem to have anything like this as part of our health system. I've had blood pressure and height/weight taken a couple of times (I'm middle aged). But that's about all wrt biological metrics, seems lackadaisical?
  - Traubenfuchs 6y ago
    Just measuring those 4 costs 83€ in a laboratory in Vienna. And there are more measurements one should probably take! And you need to test them more than once to see if supplementation works and you are not getting too much. That's not cheap...
    - andy_ppp 6y ago
      I had a load of blood tests done in the uk and the health insurance company were charged over £1000. I couldn’t believe it!
      - raverbashing 6y ago
        Define "a lot" I remember doing some tests once that had a cost breakdown and they would vary a lot in price (meaning some would be let's say, single digits, some others would be in the triple digits area - think USD/EUR price ranges)
    - krageon 6y ago
      We're talking an expense of somewhere around 1k total over a period of a few months. While not within everyone's reach (and if a single check is performed say yearly after initial alteration of your diet also an ongoing expense), it's far from an insurmountable cost. Especially considering this directly impacts your day-to-day well-being.
VMisTheWay 6y ago
>It just seems the more we learn in this field the more it shows us what we don't know. I think the root issue is that Medical treatment existed before the scientific method. This creates a huge industrial debt of "doing things the old way" and relying on authority/tradition. I can only imagine deregulation is the solution. At least in the United States, medical is run by various cartels/factions. It would be nice to have input from scientists rather than authority.
qwerty456127 6y ago
Besides extensive studies, there is little reason to be sure any particular intake of a particular nutrient or medicine is optimal. What is considered "natural", "normal" or "sufficient" is not necessarily the best in terms of the results you are going get. Theoretically it is well possible (unless real studies indicate it's not) unnaturally huge dose of a particular nutrient may happen to be very beneficial. It is also possible deficiency in particular nutrients may happen to be beneficial too. Although I'm not actually one of vitamin mega-dosing maniacs, I actually believe the chances the official RDAs (let alone ordinary rations) are optimal are fairly low.
smooth_remmy 6y ago
It's sampling bias. Plenty of people eat healthy diets in America. But if you only look at people who get very sick with COVID, they're far more likely to eat a bad diet
himinlomax 6y ago
There's reasons to believe the supposedly adequate levels of vitamin D according to authorities are way too low. Additionally, it seems the risks of overdosing (for that particular vitamin) have been greatly exaggerated in two ways: not only are dangerous levels much higher than recognized, but the effects are milder. Other fat-soluble vitamins can be dangerous in high doses, which may be part of the reasons for this (likely) mistake. What we have is the typical conundrum of opportunity cost of not using vs. risks.
thorwasdfasdf 6y ago
Absolutely. The Western diet primarily has very little variety in it. 55% of our diet comes from boxes/processed food which is almost entirely made up of only 3 things: Oil, Processed flour, sugar, and maybe some dairy. The vast majority of our diet is: meat, dairy, oil, sugar and flour. Oil and Sugar have 0 nutrients. Highly processed flour has little nutrients, but it does have some: the problem it's super deficient in potassium, magnesium and iron. So, the same eating pattern gets exploited day in day out and people end up deficient in the things you mentioned, plus potassium.
- WillDaSilva 6y ago
  I think you're confused about the meaning of "nutrient". Oils, or more generally fats/lipids, are macronutrients[1], as is the case with sugar and "highly processed flour". A diet with a variety of different foods (whether they come in boxes or are "processed" is irrelevant in general) and a good balance of macronutrients and micronutrients is healthy. I'd say the largest public health issue related to this is that most people eat an overabundance of carbs. The next most important is that people don't eat a large enough variety of foods (or supplements) to get sufficient micronutrients. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
  - thorwasdfasdf 6y ago
    I mean, it has not micronutrients: minerals and vitamins.
blablabla123 6y ago
There is also this general wisdom that Fruit because of Vitamins (in particular Vitamin C) is supposed to be good against the common cold. Numerous studies show that there is no effect. I bet this wisdom doesn't come out of nowhere, but is rather an indicator how bad the average Vitamin (C) supply is. FWIW older people are usually more often indoors and have both higher likelihoods of becoming hospitalized because of Covid and are more often indoors, thus prone to Vitamin D insufficiency.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  They're also more likely to have kidney problems that cause vitamin d insufficiency.
JungleGymSam 6y ago
This is the same thought I had on a recent article about "treating" ADHD with exercise. lol
travmatt 6y ago
This is related to the triage theory of nutrition
James_Henry 6y ago
Vitamin and mineral deficiencies, including D and Magnesium, are often a sign of metabolic syndrome and not directly because of the lack of those vitamins and minerals in the diet/behavior. If you have kidney problems, you might be deficient in Vitamin D even with a lot of sunshine.
- petra 6y ago
  Can someone explain that last sentence ? My Mom has kidney problems, so it would be very useful to know about that.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    Here's a place to start, but there is a wealth of information on the role of the kidney in vitamin d activation and what can go wrong with different disorders of the kidneys. https://www.davita.com/diet-nutrition/articles/basics/vitamin-d-and-chronic-kidney-disease https://www.davita.com/diet-nutrition/articles/basics/vitami...
turbulents 6y ago
It's also important to consider that drugs work by leveraging a particular mechanism in the body into increased action, creating chain-reactions that are fueled by vitamins and nutrients. As a result, sustained use of that drug (or even short-term use of drugs that act aggressively) would make relevant vitamin and nutrient levels trend towards depletion, among the other listed side effects of that drug. If you take any medications, a normal diet may not be enough to mitigate this.

by mikece 6y ago

Traubenfuchs 6y ago

You are right and it is no secret: - 40% of US Americans are B12 deficient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:text=B12%20deficiency%20is%20often%20perceived,are%20deficient%20in%20this%20nutrient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:.... - 42% are Vitamin D deficient: https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-americans-are-vitamin-d-deficient/#:~:text=42%25%20Percent%20of%20Americans%20Are%20Vitamin%20D%20Deficient https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-america.... - up to 50% are Magnesium deficient: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h... - 10 - 20% of women are iron deficient: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.html#:~:text=The%20prevalence%20of%20iron%20deficiency,a%20gastrointestinal%20cancer%20when%20evaluated https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.html#:~:text=The%20p.... My unscientific conclusion is that the vast majority of people world-wide probably suffer from at least one and probably more significant nutrient deficiency. With that we are wasting our "performance potential" and, less capitalistic, our "well-being potential". The lack of any of just those nutrients I looked up can cause anything from debilitating brain fog, over physical and mental deterioration to numerous physical ailments... Yet for most of them, taking them in excess causes the exact same problem. If I was filthy rich I would get nutrient levels measured once a week. (-;

pbhjpbhj 6y ago
Presumably it's relatively easy for a lab to run a panel of tests on me and say "you're deficient in X, Y, Z; try eating more A B C; spend 30mins extra a week outside; drink less alcohol". How easy is it too get such tests (in UK), I'm surprised we don't seem to have anything like this as part of our health system. I've had blood pressure and height/weight taken a couple of times (I'm middle aged). But that's about all wrt biological metrics, seems lackadaisical?
- Traubenfuchs 6y ago
  Just measuring those 4 costs 83€ in a laboratory in Vienna. And there are more measurements one should probably take! And you need to test them more than once to see if supplementation works and you are not getting too much. That's not cheap...
  - andy_ppp 6y ago
    I had a load of blood tests done in the uk and the health insurance company were charged over £1000. I couldn’t believe it!
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      Define "a lot" I remember doing some tests once that had a cost breakdown and they would vary a lot in price (meaning some would be let's say, single digits, some others would be in the triple digits area - think USD/EUR price ranges)
  - krageon 6y ago
    We're talking an expense of somewhere around 1k total over a period of a few months. While not within everyone's reach (and if a single check is performed say yearly after initial alteration of your diet also an ongoing expense), it's far from an insurmountable cost. Especially considering this directly impacts your day-to-day well-being.

VMisTheWay 6y ago

>It just seems the more we learn in this field the more it shows us what we don't know. I think the root issue is that Medical treatment existed before the scientific method. This creates a huge industrial debt of "doing things the old way" and relying on authority/tradition. I can only imagine deregulation is the solution. At least in the United States, medical is run by various cartels/factions. It would be nice to have input from scientists rather than authority.

qwerty456127 6y ago

Besides extensive studies, there is little reason to be sure any particular intake of a particular nutrient or medicine is optimal. What is considered "natural", "normal" or "sufficient" is not necessarily the best in terms of the results you are going get. Theoretically it is well possible (unless real studies indicate it's not) unnaturally huge dose of a particular nutrient may happen to be very beneficial. It is also possible deficiency in particular nutrients may happen to be beneficial too. Although I'm not actually one of vitamin mega-dosing maniacs, I actually believe the chances the official RDAs (let alone ordinary rations) are optimal are fairly low.

smooth_remmy 6y ago

It's sampling bias. Plenty of people eat healthy diets in America. But if you only look at people who get very sick with COVID, they're far more likely to eat a bad diet

himinlomax 6y ago

There's reasons to believe the supposedly adequate levels of vitamin D according to authorities are way too low. Additionally, it seems the risks of overdosing (for that particular vitamin) have been greatly exaggerated in two ways: not only are dangerous levels much higher than recognized, but the effects are milder. Other fat-soluble vitamins can be dangerous in high doses, which may be part of the reasons for this (likely) mistake. What we have is the typical conundrum of opportunity cost of not using vs. risks.

thorwasdfasdf 6y ago

Absolutely. The Western diet primarily has very little variety in it. 55% of our diet comes from boxes/processed food which is almost entirely made up of only 3 things: Oil, Processed flour, sugar, and maybe some dairy. The vast majority of our diet is: meat, dairy, oil, sugar and flour. Oil and Sugar have 0 nutrients. Highly processed flour has little nutrients, but it does have some: the problem it's super deficient in potassium, magnesium and iron. So, the same eating pattern gets exploited day in day out and people end up deficient in the things you mentioned, plus potassium.

WillDaSilva 6y ago
I think you're confused about the meaning of "nutrient". Oils, or more generally fats/lipids, are macronutrients[1], as is the case with sugar and "highly processed flour". A diet with a variety of different foods (whether they come in boxes or are "processed" is irrelevant in general) and a good balance of macronutrients and micronutrients is healthy. I'd say the largest public health issue related to this is that most people eat an overabundance of carbs. The next most important is that people don't eat a large enough variety of foods (or supplements) to get sufficient micronutrients. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
- thorwasdfasdf 6y ago
  I mean, it has not micronutrients: minerals and vitamins.

blablabla123 6y ago

There is also this general wisdom that Fruit because of Vitamins (in particular Vitamin C) is supposed to be good against the common cold. Numerous studies show that there is no effect. I bet this wisdom doesn't come out of nowhere, but is rather an indicator how bad the average Vitamin (C) supply is. FWIW older people are usually more often indoors and have both higher likelihoods of becoming hospitalized because of Covid and are more often indoors, thus prone to Vitamin D insufficiency.

James_Henry 6y ago
They're also more likely to have kidney problems that cause vitamin d insufficiency.

JungleGymSam 6y ago

This is the same thought I had on a recent article about "treating" ADHD with exercise. lol

travmatt 6y ago

This is related to the triage theory of nutrition

James_Henry 6y ago

Vitamin and mineral deficiencies, including D and Magnesium, are often a sign of metabolic syndrome and not directly because of the lack of those vitamins and minerals in the diet/behavior. If you have kidney problems, you might be deficient in Vitamin D even with a lot of sunshine.

petra 6y ago
Can someone explain that last sentence ? My Mom has kidney problems, so it would be very useful to know about that.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  Here's a place to start, but there is a wealth of information on the role of the kidney in vitamin d activation and what can go wrong with different disorders of the kidneys. https://www.davita.com/diet-nutrition/articles/basics/vitamin-d-and-chronic-kidney-disease https://www.davita.com/diet-nutrition/articles/basics/vitami...

turbulents 6y ago

It's also important to consider that drugs work by leveraging a particular mechanism in the body into increased action, creating chain-reactions that are fueled by vitamins and nutrients. As a result, sustained use of that drug (or even short-term use of drugs that act aggressively) would make relevant vitamin and nutrient levels trend towards depletion, among the other listed side effects of that drug. If you take any medications, a normal diet may not be enough to mitigate this.