8 ms·

How wonderful! Congratulations to the entire Space X team, this is a real accomplishment and I'm sure not one that came easily. It's exciting to see relatively

How wonderful! Congratulations to the entire Space X team, this is a real accomplishment and I'm sure not one that came easily. It's exciting to see relatively small companies fulfilling roles that people thought might require massive military contractors. Elon is an interesting figure. He is, I think, a paradigmatic example of the imperfect creator. His undeniable success in difficult endeavors can create an aura of authority for acting within domains where signals about the appropriateness of his judgement are less clear. We've had technical experts lead us down paths that were not, in hindsight, in our best interests (I think of Teller and Von Neumann's advocacy for aggressive action against the USSR). I hope we can move away from the "elon sucks" v.s. "elon is a genius" dichotomy and into a culture of acknowledging accomplishment while insisting claims in other areas be fully justified.

philwelch 6y ago
For me the better precedent for Elon's eccentricities might be someone like Henry Ford. Ford was an undeniable genius and innovator in a way that inspired broad admiration, but he was also troublingly paternalistic with his workers--providing above-market pay and benefits but expecting them to live up to his moral standards in their personal lives. He was also a massive sponsor of anti-Semitic publications and, prior to Pearl Harbor, a Nazi sympathizer.
- catalogia 6y ago
  I think the comparison between Elon Musk and Henry Ford starts to break down a bit towards the end of your comment. Elon Musk tweets plenty I don't like, but he's far from a Nazi.
  - mpfundstein 6y ago
    he? maybe you should read again the post of your parent....
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      I'm actually much more confused by your comment than the parent of yours.
  - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    I think that's an ungenerous interpretation of the parent comment. Saying they are comparable are not saying they have the exact same vices. But while they both did great things, IMO they also have done some pretty awful things, but more importantly, the awful things they did were given undue deference because of their greatness in other areas.
  - philwelch 6y ago
    That's certainly true and I don't think you can compare magnitudes.
  - dleslie 6y ago
    This is definitely a hindsight is 20/20 moment. In an age where radio was new, where televisions were even newer, where transcontinental news took hours, days or even weeks to travel, the knowledge that the Nazis were engaging in mass murder was not readily available. When allied troops liberated the concentration camps they filmed everything that they saw because they were concerned that without footage no one would believe them. Why? Because it was a shock, a shock so unbelievable in writing that only video and photographic evidence would suffice.
    - jhgb 6y ago
      Wait, are you saying that people didn't notice that Nazis were mass-killing people until 1945? What had they been doing since 1939?
      - philwelch 6y ago
        The Nazis were in power for six years before 1939 and existed as a political movement since 1920.
        jhgb 6y ago
        And they started mass-murdering people in 1939. The news were full of it.
        philwelch 6y ago
        Most of Henry Ford’s Nazi sympathies took place prior to 1939. In fact it might be fairer to say that the Nazis were the ones inspired by Ford’s open promotion of anti-semitism.
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        Yup. In fact, there are various stories of people in late 1930s who tried to get the word out to the wider world about what's starting to happen in Germany, and they were generally ignored. The world truly didn't learn about the camps until Nazi Germany was conquered.
  - the_rosentotter 6y ago
    The slow ethnic cleansing and land theft being perpetrated by a close American ally, supported by many of the biggest American corporations and capitalists, seems a comparable situation.
- api 6y ago
  Howard Hughes feels like a better comparison to Elon Musk.
  - dwd 6y ago
    Brunel would be my pick as a predecessor who Musk emulates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel Brunels' achievements spanned both civil and naval engineering projects, and much like Musk he didn't so much invent something completely new, but innovated on existing systems. His work on propeller screws is very much in the same vein as Musk and the Raptor engine. Probably fair to say he was a larger than life figure in his day and a driving force during the industrial revolution.
    - api 6y ago
      Fascinating! He even helped get a pneumatic railway built, which failed, and reminds me a bit of hyperloop. If I had to bet on a Musk project that would fail it would be that one. Something about it just feels wrong to my engineering intuition... too tight of tolerances for a civil engineering project.
      - dwd 6y ago
        What the hyperloop set out to achieve was a worthy goal. The cost of high-speed rail in the US is astronomical so any solution that cuts that cost dramatically is a good thing. His plans for the LA-SF route was very much like what Brunel engineered for the GWR with a series of tunnels and bridges to minimise the gradient and allow for high speed and volume. I caught an InterCity125 a heap of times back in the early 80's while living near Chippenham running on the same line Brunel built. I think with Musk, it's the lesser known achievements like the big battery in South Australia that elevate him to the level of Brunel. https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-outsmarts-lumbering-coal-units-after-loy-yang-trips-70003/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-outsmarts-lumb...
  - nickik 6y ago
    Elon doesn't like the Howard Hughes comparisons because Hughes innovations didn't change the everyday experience of people. See this story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNG6ZzDh9C8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNG6ZzDh9C8
lazyjones 6y ago
> I hope we can move away from the "elon sucks" v.s. "elon is a genius" dichotomy and into a culture of acknowledging accomplishment while insisting claims in other areas be fully justified. Until then, I'll happily consider Elon's or even John Carmack's opinion over those of Elon's numerous, noisy but otherwise uninteresting critics on the Internet and elsewhere.
- nutjob2 6y ago
  How much weight should I give the opinion of someone who calls someone who disagrees with him "the pedo guy"? It's a serious question. Elon may run some successful companies, but beyond that his credibility has taken a beating on any number of fronts. How much credit should Elon get for heading companies full of other people who do the actual work? Could another leader do a better job, given Elons unsteady behaviour?
  - jdamon96 6y ago
    I mean the whole point of capitalism is another leader can try to do better, and if they do the market will allocate them resources. It’s not like Elon was handed spacex with 8,000 employees; he built it up.
  - icelancer 6y ago
    Perhaps our opinions - positive and negative - are relatively meaningless?
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    Let's be honest. You have never said something that is considered bad to someone you didn't like or disagree with? I doubt it. Does that now mean your opinion is null and void? Maybe people should recognize that failure in a domain doesn't mean that same person isn't otherwise highly competent.
  - jokit 6y ago
    Anyone who does anything for decentralization is good in my book. That everything Elon does is to that end has me a big fan.
octygen 6y ago
We simply need capable egomaniacs to move society forward via exploration. The type of people that shrug at loss of life and say "That's the cost of exploration. Next?" and then somehow motivate a whole slew of people to dedicate their lives to trying again. Not sure he'd do this if life was lost but he does ask for the type of efforts/sacrifices few are willing to give that most view as unspeakable. I say this knowing people at both SpaceX and Tesla.
sunstone 6y ago
Perhaps a more interesting comparison is between Elon the CEO of Tesla and Elon the CEO of SpaceX. You may notice that these are two very different personalities that serve two different corporate requirements. The Elon of SpaceX introduces himself as "I'm proud to be here representing the SpaceX team." The Elon of Tesla is smoking up on camera, throwing humongous ball bearings at the Cybertruck windows, sleeping in his sleeping bag while trying to bring Model 3 production through the Shadow of the Valley of Death. You almost never hear about any of Elon's direct contributions to SpaceX whereas he's mister Tesla front and center at Tesla pulling stunt after tweet. SpaceX servers a very conservative industrial market and Tesla makes consumer products. These companies require to very different types of leadership. Who is the real Elon behind this public Jekyll and Hyde dynamic? Most likely it's the driven "man of first principles" just doing what needs to be done.
- briga 6y ago
  I think it's pretty transparent that Elon creates controversy and does stunts to get attention. Like many other celebrities he seems to have mastered the art of getting the public to talk about him. It's easier to sell your products or ideas if people are continually talking about you.
- nickik 6y ago
  I think you are pretty wrong, I see absolutely no difference at all and I follow both companies pretty closely. The media is just much more actively following Tesla in because they are marketing to the general population there is a far more detailed view on Tesla. However overall Elon is pretty much just Elon al the time. Elon talks about the Starship pretty much like he does about the Cybertruck. These are just products he is working on, he informs people about what is going on, changes that they are doing and so on. Both during SpaceX and Tesla talks he gives about equal time thanking the team as far as I can tell. We know that Elon for example pushed the team to develop phase shut off for Merlin engine. We know that Elon was pushing for adopting steal on the Starship. With both companies its not totally clear when what decisions are made (as makes sense with private companies), but overall I think its pretty much the same. Most of his twitter shananigans have nothing to do with Tesla or SpaceX, or have to do with both. The Tesla factory opening was of course about Tesla, but his comments in general about Corona were not. His Thailand diver thing was not about a particular company either. > The Elon of Tesla is smoking up on camera In that interview he spent about equal time on both companies > sleeping in his sleeping bag while trying to bring Model 3 production through the Shadow of the Valley of Death He has said much the same kind of stuff for SpaceX stuff too. Not specifically sleeping in the factory but overwork after failures, not sleeping for a long time and so on.
arnaudsm 6y ago
Elon's speech pertinence was exceptional in the 2010s, but his last 12 months were really chaotic (pedo-sub, tesla-tweets-420 and "it's just a flu" scandals). I guess that working 100h weeks takes a toll on your brain. Fortunately his companies can live without him now.
- icelancer 6y ago
  >> Fortunately his companies can live without him now. This seems quite unlikely in both cases.
- logarhythmic 6y ago
  Elon is synonymous with Tesla. Its not so obvious to me that they could survive without him, it is a consumer product after all.
nickik 6y ago
You can hate Elon if you want or think whatever, but anybody that can't admit that on purely intelligence level he is genius is pretty much in denial.
- cm2012 6y ago
  He's smart but not infallible. He said covid would be at zero cases by April.
  - tluyben2 6y ago
    No one said he was infallible; no human is.
wmeredith 6y ago
AM I the only one that feels like the Elon sucks/is a genius thing are just two sides of the same coin? Geniuses are rarely well adjusted.
nirav72 6y ago
probably because one company's revenue depends on government contracts and the other depends on consumers.
fasteddie31003 6y ago
I think it's hilarious how HN dislikes Elon. Elon is edgy, non-pc, and speaks his mind. All traits I see looked down upon in Silicon Valley.
- unixhero 6y ago
  What's non-pc?
  - isatty 6y ago
    Maybe non politically correct.
    - unixhero 6y ago
      Thanks!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
jessedotexe 6y ago
It was really cool to see the launch. Your last sentence is something I hope every can strive for.

philwelch 6y ago

For me the better precedent for Elon's eccentricities might be someone like Henry Ford. Ford was an undeniable genius and innovator in a way that inspired broad admiration, but he was also troublingly paternalistic with his workers--providing above-market pay and benefits but expecting them to live up to his moral standards in their personal lives. He was also a massive sponsor of anti-Semitic publications and, prior to Pearl Harbor, a Nazi sympathizer.

catalogia 6y ago
I think the comparison between Elon Musk and Henry Ford starts to break down a bit towards the end of your comment. Elon Musk tweets plenty I don't like, but he's far from a Nazi.
- mpfundstein 6y ago
  he? maybe you should read again the post of your parent....
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    I'm actually much more confused by your comment than the parent of yours.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  I think that's an ungenerous interpretation of the parent comment. Saying they are comparable are not saying they have the exact same vices. But while they both did great things, IMO they also have done some pretty awful things, but more importantly, the awful things they did were given undue deference because of their greatness in other areas.
- philwelch 6y ago
  That's certainly true and I don't think you can compare magnitudes.
- dleslie 6y ago
  This is definitely a hindsight is 20/20 moment. In an age where radio was new, where televisions were even newer, where transcontinental news took hours, days or even weeks to travel, the knowledge that the Nazis were engaging in mass murder was not readily available. When allied troops liberated the concentration camps they filmed everything that they saw because they were concerned that without footage no one would believe them. Why? Because it was a shock, a shock so unbelievable in writing that only video and photographic evidence would suffice.
  - jhgb 6y ago
    Wait, are you saying that people didn't notice that Nazis were mass-killing people until 1945? What had they been doing since 1939?
    - philwelch 6y ago
      The Nazis were in power for six years before 1939 and existed as a political movement since 1920.
      - jhgb 6y ago
        And they started mass-murdering people in 1939. The news were full of it.
        philwelch 6y ago
        Most of Henry Ford’s Nazi sympathies took place prior to 1939. In fact it might be fairer to say that the Nazis were the ones inspired by Ford’s open promotion of anti-semitism.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      Yup. In fact, there are various stories of people in late 1930s who tried to get the word out to the wider world about what's starting to happen in Germany, and they were generally ignored. The world truly didn't learn about the camps until Nazi Germany was conquered.
- the_rosentotter 6y ago
  The slow ethnic cleansing and land theft being perpetrated by a close American ally, supported by many of the biggest American corporations and capitalists, seems a comparable situation.
api 6y ago
Howard Hughes feels like a better comparison to Elon Musk.
- dwd 6y ago
  Brunel would be my pick as a predecessor who Musk emulates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel Brunels' achievements spanned both civil and naval engineering projects, and much like Musk he didn't so much invent something completely new, but innovated on existing systems. His work on propeller screws is very much in the same vein as Musk and the Raptor engine. Probably fair to say he was a larger than life figure in his day and a driving force during the industrial revolution.
  - api 6y ago
    Fascinating! He even helped get a pneumatic railway built, which failed, and reminds me a bit of hyperloop. If I had to bet on a Musk project that would fail it would be that one. Something about it just feels wrong to my engineering intuition... too tight of tolerances for a civil engineering project.
    - dwd 6y ago
      What the hyperloop set out to achieve was a worthy goal. The cost of high-speed rail in the US is astronomical so any solution that cuts that cost dramatically is a good thing. His plans for the LA-SF route was very much like what Brunel engineered for the GWR with a series of tunnels and bridges to minimise the gradient and allow for high speed and volume. I caught an InterCity125 a heap of times back in the early 80's while living near Chippenham running on the same line Brunel built. I think with Musk, it's the lesser known achievements like the big battery in South Australia that elevate him to the level of Brunel. https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-outsmarts-lumbering-coal-units-after-loy-yang-trips-70003/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-outsmarts-lumb...
- nickik 6y ago
  Elon doesn't like the Howard Hughes comparisons because Hughes innovations didn't change the everyday experience of people. See this story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNG6ZzDh9C8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNG6ZzDh9C8

lazyjones 6y ago

> I hope we can move away from the "elon sucks" v.s. "elon is a genius" dichotomy and into a culture of acknowledging accomplishment while insisting claims in other areas be fully justified. Until then, I'll happily consider Elon's or even John Carmack's opinion over those of Elon's numerous, noisy but otherwise uninteresting critics on the Internet and elsewhere.

nutjob2 6y ago
How much weight should I give the opinion of someone who calls someone who disagrees with him "the pedo guy"? It's a serious question. Elon may run some successful companies, but beyond that his credibility has taken a beating on any number of fronts. How much credit should Elon get for heading companies full of other people who do the actual work? Could another leader do a better job, given Elons unsteady behaviour?
- jdamon96 6y ago
  I mean the whole point of capitalism is another leader can try to do better, and if they do the market will allocate them resources. It’s not like Elon was handed spacex with 8,000 employees; he built it up.
- icelancer 6y ago
  Perhaps our opinions - positive and negative - are relatively meaningless?
- rowanG077 6y ago
  Let's be honest. You have never said something that is considered bad to someone you didn't like or disagree with? I doubt it. Does that now mean your opinion is null and void? Maybe people should recognize that failure in a domain doesn't mean that same person isn't otherwise highly competent.
- jokit 6y ago
  Anyone who does anything for decentralization is good in my book. That everything Elon does is to that end has me a big fan.

octygen 6y ago

We simply need capable egomaniacs to move society forward via exploration. The type of people that shrug at loss of life and say "That's the cost of exploration. Next?" and then somehow motivate a whole slew of people to dedicate their lives to trying again. Not sure he'd do this if life was lost but he does ask for the type of efforts/sacrifices few are willing to give that most view as unspeakable. I say this knowing people at both SpaceX and Tesla.

sunstone 6y ago

Perhaps a more interesting comparison is between Elon the CEO of Tesla and Elon the CEO of SpaceX. You may notice that these are two very different personalities that serve two different corporate requirements. The Elon of SpaceX introduces himself as "I'm proud to be here representing the SpaceX team." The Elon of Tesla is smoking up on camera, throwing humongous ball bearings at the Cybertruck windows, sleeping in his sleeping bag while trying to bring Model 3 production through the Shadow of the Valley of Death. You almost never hear about any of Elon's direct contributions to SpaceX whereas he's mister Tesla front and center at Tesla pulling stunt after tweet. SpaceX servers a very conservative industrial market and Tesla makes consumer products. These companies require to very different types of leadership. Who is the real Elon behind this public Jekyll and Hyde dynamic? Most likely it's the driven "man of first principles" just doing what needs to be done.

briga 6y ago
I think it's pretty transparent that Elon creates controversy and does stunts to get attention. Like many other celebrities he seems to have mastered the art of getting the public to talk about him. It's easier to sell your products or ideas if people are continually talking about you.
nickik 6y ago
I think you are pretty wrong, I see absolutely no difference at all and I follow both companies pretty closely. The media is just much more actively following Tesla in because they are marketing to the general population there is a far more detailed view on Tesla. However overall Elon is pretty much just Elon al the time. Elon talks about the Starship pretty much like he does about the Cybertruck. These are just products he is working on, he informs people about what is going on, changes that they are doing and so on. Both during SpaceX and Tesla talks he gives about equal time thanking the team as far as I can tell. We know that Elon for example pushed the team to develop phase shut off for Merlin engine. We know that Elon was pushing for adopting steal on the Starship. With both companies its not totally clear when what decisions are made (as makes sense with private companies), but overall I think its pretty much the same. Most of his twitter shananigans have nothing to do with Tesla or SpaceX, or have to do with both. The Tesla factory opening was of course about Tesla, but his comments in general about Corona were not. His Thailand diver thing was not about a particular company either. > The Elon of Tesla is smoking up on camera In that interview he spent about equal time on both companies > sleeping in his sleeping bag while trying to bring Model 3 production through the Shadow of the Valley of Death He has said much the same kind of stuff for SpaceX stuff too. Not specifically sleeping in the factory but overwork after failures, not sleeping for a long time and so on.

arnaudsm 6y ago

Elon's speech pertinence was exceptional in the 2010s, but his last 12 months were really chaotic (pedo-sub, tesla-tweets-420 and "it's just a flu" scandals). I guess that working 100h weeks takes a toll on your brain. Fortunately his companies can live without him now.

icelancer 6y ago
>> Fortunately his companies can live without him now. This seems quite unlikely in both cases.
logarhythmic 6y ago
Elon is synonymous with Tesla. Its not so obvious to me that they could survive without him, it is a consumer product after all.

nickik 6y ago

You can hate Elon if you want or think whatever, but anybody that can't admit that on purely intelligence level he is genius is pretty much in denial.

cm2012 6y ago
He's smart but not infallible. He said covid would be at zero cases by April.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  No one said he was infallible; no human is.

wmeredith 6y ago

AM I the only one that feels like the Elon sucks/is a genius thing are just two sides of the same coin? Geniuses are rarely well adjusted.

nirav72 6y ago

probably because one company's revenue depends on government contracts and the other depends on consumers.

fasteddie31003 6y ago

I think it's hilarious how HN dislikes Elon. Elon is edgy, non-pc, and speaks his mind. All traits I see looked down upon in Silicon Valley.

unixhero 6y ago
What's non-pc?
- isatty 6y ago
  Maybe non politically correct.
  - unixhero 6y ago
    Thanks!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

jessedotexe 6y ago

It was really cool to see the launch. Your last sentence is something I hope every can strive for.