5 ms·

Why? And what sorts of petty crime? If the solution is more damaging than the problem, (and where I grew up, with jumpout vans driving around to stop and pat d

by MiroF 6y ago

Why? And what sorts of petty crime? If the solution is more damaging than the problem, (and where I grew up, with jumpout vans driving around to stop and pat down random groups of teenagers, it certainly was) then the solution seems unnecessary. I feel like many commentators here are divorced from what policing on the ground in these places really looks like, there is no finesse or discretion to it.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I agree that the existence of the problem doesn't justify any possible policy, and patting down random groups of teenagers does seem bad. But, I mean, crimes are bad too. Ideally nobody should have to live in a neighborhood where they're afraid of being mugged or having their car broken into, and today a lot of people do.
- MiroF 6y ago
  > being mugged Mugging is a violent crime and should be policed - but studies also show that people vastly overestimate their risk of being mugged. It definitely happens, but I am very skeptical that "broken window" policing addresses these sorts of violent crimes. A better move would be to de-densify poverty with mixed income housing, provide support resources, and build trust with police so people will report violent crimes. > having their car broken into Cars being broken in to? That's a different matter - I really don't think we have the capacity to police this in any meaningful way, it's a problem endemic to urban neighborhoods and is incredibly hard to police in a way that isn't super disproportionate. Don't leave valuables in your car, don't lock your doors - they'll just open, rifle through, and leave. I've had my car rifled through tens of times and the most they ever got was some quarters I left in there. The utilitarian in me feels like being exposed daily to random patdowns and harassments and having people jump out on you is much worse than that. Nobody should live in a neighborhood where the law enforcement doesn't treat them with dignity, just because of the color of their skin or their class background. You can't cleanly separate what crimes you choose to care about from the policies in place. When voters tell elected officials "decrease car breakins, that's what impacts my vote" that'll translate to these disproportionate policies because the communities being policed do not have the power to sway the policy and it is easy to hide the impact of the policing from the voters.
  - mikeappell 6y ago
    > Don't leave valuables in your car, don't lock your doors - they'll just open, rifle through, and leave. I've had my car rifled through tens of times and the most they ever got was some quarters I left in there. Not sure how much of an issue this still is, but thieves used to steal airbags. That's a lot more expensive and a PITA to replace.
    - MiroF 6y ago
      Based on a quick google, you have about a ~0.01% chance of your airbag being stolen in a given year. How many black people should we stop and frisk to solve that problem, I'm a little rusty on the math?
      - nitrogen 6y ago
        Just because the original policing tactic that spawned this thread is abhorrent doesn't mean we can't discuss other possibilities here. More on-foot friendly patrols (which should be perfectly doable given much higher density in cities), for example. Or maybe police actually trying to catch actual criminals instead of just acting like insurance agents.
        MiroF 6y ago
        Here's what happens: Voters vote for someone who says they will do this thing "more on-foot friendly patrols", "catch actual criminals". Police obviously continue what they've always been doing and stop & frisk, harass minorities, etc, because that's generally what happens when you stuff poor neighborhoods full of cops from a completely different background to the community they are policing. Everyone pretends this is not what is happening until some particularly blatant instance brings it to light. Turning up the pressure to catch stupid, small crimes while letting actual large problems (like consistent theft of wages that outnumbers money lost to robbery 3 to 1) will lead to stupid solutions.
        Dylan16807 6y ago
- craftinator 6y ago
  I submit that any random searches by police breach our Constitutional Rights, are a form of mugging (or at least assault), and should be punished as such.
rwmj 6y ago
In tourist areas I'd quite like the police to be proactively stopping pickpockets and scam artists.
- MiroF 6y ago
  Again - you're discounting the negative secondary effects of the policy when the police start harassing people who "look" like pickpockets. Reminder - more total money is stolen from workers in the form of wage theft than is robbed by a factor of ~3 [0], why don't we focus on policing that? [0]: https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-forms-theft-workers/ https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-fo...
  - rwmj 6y ago
    You target pickpockets by having the police pretend to be a tourist, then arresting anyone who tries to pickpocket them. There's no confusion or profiling going on. And the rest of your comment is pure whataboutery - yes, we should do both.
    - MiroF 6y ago
      It's not whataboutery in the context of limited policing resources and public attention. Accusations of tu quoque get thrown around way too quickly on the internet.
    - skinnymuch 6y ago
      There’s limited resources. How is it whataboutism?
      - rwmj 6y ago
        Arresting pickpockets may be an overall gain if tourists feel safe to go out and therefore spend. And rampant wage fraud also ought to be tackled, again possibly a net overall gain if that increases tax revenue. If your country cannot fund a police force that could do both these things then you have much bigger problems.

by MiroF 6y ago

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

I agree that the existence of the problem doesn't justify any possible policy, and patting down random groups of teenagers does seem bad. But, I mean, crimes are bad too. Ideally nobody should have to live in a neighborhood where they're afraid of being mugged or having their car broken into, and today a lot of people do.

MiroF 6y ago
> being mugged Mugging is a violent crime and should be policed - but studies also show that people vastly overestimate their risk of being mugged. It definitely happens, but I am very skeptical that "broken window" policing addresses these sorts of violent crimes. A better move would be to de-densify poverty with mixed income housing, provide support resources, and build trust with police so people will report violent crimes. > having their car broken into Cars being broken in to? That's a different matter - I really don't think we have the capacity to police this in any meaningful way, it's a problem endemic to urban neighborhoods and is incredibly hard to police in a way that isn't super disproportionate. Don't leave valuables in your car, don't lock your doors - they'll just open, rifle through, and leave. I've had my car rifled through tens of times and the most they ever got was some quarters I left in there. The utilitarian in me feels like being exposed daily to random patdowns and harassments and having people jump out on you is much worse than that. Nobody should live in a neighborhood where the law enforcement doesn't treat them with dignity, just because of the color of their skin or their class background. You can't cleanly separate what crimes you choose to care about from the policies in place. When voters tell elected officials "decrease car breakins, that's what impacts my vote" that'll translate to these disproportionate policies because the communities being policed do not have the power to sway the policy and it is easy to hide the impact of the policing from the voters.
- mikeappell 6y ago
  > Don't leave valuables in your car, don't lock your doors - they'll just open, rifle through, and leave. I've had my car rifled through tens of times and the most they ever got was some quarters I left in there. Not sure how much of an issue this still is, but thieves used to steal airbags. That's a lot more expensive and a PITA to replace.
  - MiroF 6y ago
    Based on a quick google, you have about a ~0.01% chance of your airbag being stolen in a given year. How many black people should we stop and frisk to solve that problem, I'm a little rusty on the math?
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      Just because the original policing tactic that spawned this thread is abhorrent doesn't mean we can't discuss other possibilities here. More on-foot friendly patrols (which should be perfectly doable given much higher density in cities), for example. Or maybe police actually trying to catch actual criminals instead of just acting like insurance agents.
      - MiroF 6y ago
        Here's what happens: Voters vote for someone who says they will do this thing "more on-foot friendly patrols", "catch actual criminals". Police obviously continue what they've always been doing and stop & frisk, harass minorities, etc, because that's generally what happens when you stuff poor neighborhoods full of cops from a completely different background to the community they are policing. Everyone pretends this is not what is happening until some particularly blatant instance brings it to light. Turning up the pressure to catch stupid, small crimes while letting actual large problems (like consistent theft of wages that outnumbers money lost to robbery 3 to 1) will lead to stupid solutions.
        Dylan16807 6y ago
craftinator 6y ago
I submit that any random searches by police breach our Constitutional Rights, are a form of mugging (or at least assault), and should be punished as such.

rwmj 6y ago

In tourist areas I'd quite like the police to be proactively stopping pickpockets and scam artists.

MiroF 6y ago
Again - you're discounting the negative secondary effects of the policy when the police start harassing people who "look" like pickpockets. Reminder - more total money is stolen from workers in the form of wage theft than is robbed by a factor of ~3 [0], why don't we focus on policing that? [0]: https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-forms-theft-workers/ https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-fo...
- rwmj 6y ago
  You target pickpockets by having the police pretend to be a tourist, then arresting anyone who tries to pickpocket them. There's no confusion or profiling going on. And the rest of your comment is pure whataboutery - yes, we should do both.
  - MiroF 6y ago
    It's not whataboutery in the context of limited policing resources and public attention. Accusations of tu quoque get thrown around way too quickly on the internet.
  - skinnymuch 6y ago
    There’s limited resources. How is it whataboutism?
    - rwmj 6y ago
      Arresting pickpockets may be an overall gain if tourists feel safe to go out and therefore spend. And rampant wage fraud also ought to be tackled, again possibly a net overall gain if that increases tax revenue. If your country cannot fund a police force that could do both these things then you have much bigger problems.