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The article posits the "soft foods" explanation for our poor teeth, but there is another, which starts with the research of Weston A Price: https://en.wikipedia

• ebg13 6y ago
  The same Weston A Price? https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/sbm-weston-prices-appalling-legacy/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/sbm-weston-prices-appalling...
  • centimeter 6y ago
    That site is the definition of midwit pulp. Citing rationalwiki, referring to raw meat as "dangerous", vast overconfidence compared to the actual predictive power available. Sure, WAPF has some wacky stuff, but they also have some obviously good advice, and for most of the disputable claims they make, we don't actually have especially good evidence that they're wrong, so it's not something I'm going to waste energy arguing about.
    • ebg13 6y ago
      > That site is the definition of midwit pulp. You mean the WAPF site, right? > Sure, WAPF has some wacky stuff, but they also have some obviously good advice, and for most of the disputable claims they make, we don't actually have especially good evidence that they're wrong Here's WAPF recommending homeopathy for alcoholism, sinus infections, and cancer: https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/homeopathy-and-alcoholism/ https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/homeopathy-and-al... https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/homeopathy/honk-if-you-hate-sinus-infections/ https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/homeopathy/honk-i... https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/homeopathy/dont-believe-homeopathy-place-cancer-treatment-think/ https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/homeopathy/dont-b... Here's WAPF arguing against vaccines, calling Bill Gates (what?) a "delusional global dictator" (double what?) and saying that if you do have to give a child a vaccine that you should "keep him quiet for at least 24 hours after a shot" (triple what?) https://www.westonaprice.org/vaccinations/ https://www.westonaprice.org/vaccinations/
      • centimeter 6y ago
        Homeopathy doesn't work in a literal sense, but it's fine because it keeps people distracted from going to the doctor to get loaded up on pills until their condition goes away naturally. Cancer is probably the exception there. Like I said, they have some wacky stuff, but a lot of WP's advice is good
    • UnbugMe 6y ago
      The WAPF has Screwed Price himself and people his findings could have helped by using his name to promote hokey bs. (spelling)
  • UnbugMe 6y ago
    I've seen/read this site before. What really bothers me about it and the similar arguments found on quackwatch, they are pretty much all based on crap from The Weston A. Price Foundation that Price himself never even wrote/promoted. If SBM did ANY due diligence, I'm Pretty sure they'd notice that the foundation, (founded in 1999) is pretty far apart from Price's book, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration". He died in 1948 and thus, had no connection to the foundation bearing his name. It's like they didn't read his book at all and just assumed The Weston A. Price Foundation was echoing his findings. The Weston A. Price Foundation is essentially wack fanfic, very loosely based on his findings, with tonnes of other "holistic" horse shit thrown in. Dr. Price himself was a proponent of many things that are coming into favor now, such as not overly processing food, not having white bread, getting adequate amounts of vit. d, vit. a, calcium and some others. Source: Unlike SBM/QW, I've actually read his book. FWIW, I enjoyed copious amounts of milk as a kid until about the age of 20, its just about all I drank. My vit. a/d levels must have been through the roof vs the average person. (In Canada vit. d3 has to be added to milk by law.) I'm 37, have all 32 teeth, sans cavities, yes even the wisdom teeth. Now adays, I prefer to just drink water and get vits. a/d from cod liver oil. My diet mostly consists of much vegetables and animal foods. Cooked veg and meat are always cooked in butter. I've never been overweight, my bp is 115/65. I'm super sedentary in the winter, quite active in the summer. Edited for spelling
    • bsima 6y ago
      It's prudent to note that raw, natural, unadulterated milk is very different from the processed stuff in stores, which has a dark history: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/19th-century-fight-bacteria-ridden-milk-embalming-fluid-180970473/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/19th-century-f... See also the book "The Untold Story of Milk" by Ron Schmid.
      • UnbugMe 6y ago
        Yeah, I've eaten a decent amount of raw animal products of good quality and never gotten sick from them. Beef 4 times or so, pork once, sashimi and non sashimi grade fish, eggs, (daily), beef liver, cow tongue, oddly never milk yet. I don't think there is actually any good evidence that what I've done in that regard should be promoted. Price's book never promoted these things either.
  • bsima 6y ago
    It's important to separate the research produced by the man Weston A Price from the foundation that has adopted his name. I'm referencing the man and his research, and citing lectures from the Ancestral Health Society, which actually publishes a scientific journal of its own.
    • UnbugMe 6y ago
      Right, The WAPF and people who cant separate the man vs a foundation that was made over 50 years after he died, have probably done a huge amount of damage in this regard.
• ars 6y ago
  > When an industrialized, Western diet was followed What specifically in the diet is the thing that causes it? Because there is not just one "industrialized, Western diet", there are hundreds or thousands of them. The article posits "soft, sugary". What is Price's theory?
  • bsima 6y ago
    Price theorized that the missing element in Western diets was vitamin K, which is acquired in high amounts from animal fats. Every traditional diet had an adequate amount of animal fat, either in meat they ate, raw cheese, or raw whole milk.
    • metta2uall 6y ago
      According to the Linus Pauling Institute, Vitamin K2 is found most plentifully in certain non-animal fermented foods, cheeses (no mention of them having to be 'raw'), and animal liver, rather than animal fat in general. https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-K https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-K It seems animal (and human) fat doesn't store much Vitamin K which is why a steady dietary supply is necessary. Also did ancient societies have higher average lifespans than today? I don't quite understand claims ancient people were healthier.. Of course modern lifestyles have severe inadequacies, but it's complex, and for example many Japanese have quite long life spans despite eating a lot of rice.
      • draven 6y ago
        Being healthy is not the only factor for long lifespan, there are also accidental risks (disease, being eaten by a tiger, ...) mitigated by our modern way of life and access to advanced healthcare. A Masai is probably healthier than a cliche westerner fueled processed carbs and sitting all day, but the latter will certainly live longer. As for Japanese eating lots of rice, portion control ? I'd guess they get a large proportion of their calories from rice, but don't over-eat. I used to live in Thailand, Thais eat all the time, mostly carbs but small portions, and there are still fewer fat people than in the West.
      • 6y ago
• ip26 6y ago
  The article makes two points/claims. - Soft foods leads to small dental arches and thus crowding - carb-rich (i.e. Western diets) lead to decay Basically, you're agreeing with the article.
  • mc32 6y ago
    Don’t/didn’t indigenous peoples eat roots like cassava and potatoes, beets, etc., even rice?
    • bsima 6y ago
      Different indigenous peoples ate very different diets, from zero carb to mostly carb, but each group ate a smaller variety of foods because they were constrained by their geography. Most diets were high in animal fats though, and even the ones that were high in carbohydrate had adequate amounts of animal fat in the form of cheese and (raw, whole) milk.
    • masonic 6y ago
      Potatoes didn't exist in the Old World until brought from South America. Corn (maize) and tomatoes also came from the New World.
  • triyambakam 6y ago
    It's not carb-rich diets, it's processed carbohydrates. Every culture on earth eats predominately carbohydrates, with a very small few exceptions like Inuit or some peoples in Africa. Asia has mostly rice, Africa various roots, South/North America it was corn, etc. Humans are (loosely) starch-ivores
    • bsima 6y ago
      Price observed that the great majority of traditional diets were high in animal fats. He theorized that vitamin K, which is mostly acquired from animal fat, was the key health-promoting factor. Humans are more likely facultative carnivores than grain-eaters.
• mixmastamyk 6y ago
  What were the "traditional diets," vegetables?
  • bsima 6y ago
    Its complex, but Price suggested vitamin K from animal fats was the key element. All traditional diets were heavy in animal fats, either meat or raw dairy/cheese. Vegetables and fruit were only eaten seasonally, and not in high volume.
    • dTal 6y ago
      >raw dairy/cheese Why "raw"? Is pasteurization bad?
      • bsima 6y ago
        Yes it is. Pasteurization destroys the nutrients and beneficial bacteria. Raw milk from healthy cows is a probiotic like yogurt and extremely health promoting. People that are supposedly lactose intolerant are often able to drink raw milk after an adjustment period, probably because they improve their microbiome. See https://www.realmilk.com/ https://www.realmilk.com/ (one of the good things the WAPF has done) and the book "The Untold Story of Milk" for a fascinating tell-all,including how pasteurization was initially used because producers were spiking milk with chalk and embalming fluid and literally feeding dairy cows shit, public health officials had no other way to control the milk supply.
        • YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
          realmilk.com is the website of a campaign for raw milk by the Weston A. Price Foundation. Being the website of an activist organisation it is not a source that is likely to be objective. Especially troublesome is the clear attempt to rebrand raw milk as "real milk", possibly to avoid the negative associations that most people rightly make with raw milk. I cite below from the wikipedia page on raw milk, which is more likely to be an objective source: With the exception of an altered organoleptic [flavor] profile, heating (particularly ultra high temperature and similar treatments) will not substantially change the nutritional value of raw milk or other benefits associated with raw milk consumption."[20] Raw milk advocates, such as the Weston A. Price Foundation, say that raw milk can be produced hygienically, and that it has health benefits that are destroyed in the pasteurization process.[2] Research shows only very slight differences in the nutritional values of pasteurized and unpasteurized milk.[12][20] Three studies have found a statistically significant inverse relationship between consumption of raw milk and asthma and allergies.[28][29][30] However, all of these studies have been performed in children living on farms and living a farming lifestyle, rather than comparing urban children living typical urban lifestyles and with typical urban exposures on the basis of consumption or nonconsumption of raw milk. Aspects of the overall urban vs. farming environment lifestyle have been suggested as having a role in these differences, and for this reason, the overall phenomenon has been named the "farm effect". Also see webpages (and a pdf report) on drinking raw milk from the US FDA and CDC, UK FSA and EU EFSA, below: The Dangers of Raw Milk: Unpasteurized Milk Can Pose a Serious Health Risk https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/dangers-raw-milk-unpasteurized-milk-can-pose-serious-health-risk https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/dangers-r... Raw (Unpasteurized) Milk https://www.cdc.gov/features/rawmilk/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/features/rawmilk/index.html Raw drinking milk https://www.food.gov.uk/safety-hygiene/raw-drinking-milk https://www.food.gov.uk/safety-hygiene/raw-drinking-milk Scientific opinion on the public health risks related to the consumption of raw drinking milk https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2015.3940 https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2903/j.efsa... tl;dr all major public health agencies in the US and Europe advise against consumption of raw milk.
• momokoko 6y ago
  So the records of tooth decay we have during the beginnings of agriculture are not “traditional”? Curious where your line of “traditional” is. I have a hunch it lines up with your dietary preferences.
  • grecy 6y ago
    A really good start is to only buy and eat things that contain one ingredient. Mostly everything else is bad for you (and your teeth). # Yes, yes, there are exceptions, but I'd say it holds true at least 95% of the time. EDIT/UPDATE: I was actually being serious. Fruit, vegetables, grains, meat. Cook and eat those things, and you'll do fine. Of course you can combine them, but do so at home so you control what's actually in there.
    • rat9988 6y ago
      Any single fruit is a combination of multiple things. I'd rather have a more scientific explanation.
    • AlecSchueler 6y ago
      Worth noting that any modern fruit you'll find in a shop has been bred for generations to contain far far far more sugar than they would have had prior to industrialisation.
  • bsima 6y ago
    Maybe you could start this line of inquiry by comparing Price's research with these records of which you write.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
• JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  Is Price’s research treated seriously by modern medicine? I’ve only come across it in the context of Vitamin K supplement marketing materials.
• toochini 6y ago
  Oh nice stuff! Glad to see educated people here. I think Weston Price was definitely onto something, however please be very skeptical of the claims about the cod liver oil and similar. They are a very poor source all things considered of vitamin a d and k; they also contains tons of rancid fat which I think everyone even the mainstream agree is damaging to health. One thing Weston made me realize and saddens me is how even the upper classes of many countries nowadays follow pretty poor diets and food ideas. Like even they who could afford proper nutrition are not getting it, let alone the aspirants who emulate all the latest diet fads and trends.