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Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen
- baxtr 6y agoAnyone wondering: The summary is that Caffeine seems to be very good for your health! So keep on drinking
- amelius 6y agoThere is more in coffee than caffeine. For example cafestol is a substance present in unfiltered coffee that is known to cause health problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafestol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafestol
- esperent 6y agoI did some reading on that a few months ago when a friend was trying to convince me to filter coffee using paper (apparently that remove cafestol and kahweol). It seems like recent studies have shown more mixed results for these compounds. They can (mildly) increase cholesterol, but are also anti-carcinogenic in the lower intestine and may help to regulate blood sugar. > Early studies confirmed that coffee diterpenes (especially cafestol), effectively increase human plasma triacylglycerol and low-density lipoprotein (LDL), may be a potential risk of inducing some cardiovascular diseases [7,14]. However, from a more comprehensive perspective, cafestol and kahweol show a remarkable two-faced effect. In addition to the deleterious effects on serum lipid levels and liver enzymes in some cases, extensive studies have demonstrated that cafestol and kahweol exhibit a wide variety of pharmacological activities, including anti-inflammatory, anti-angiogenic and anti-tumorigenic properties. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6747192/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6747192/
- DabbyDabberson 6y agoa "nootropic" in modern parlance
- mcculley 6y agoI am impressed at the lengths people will go to rationalize consuming that to which they are addicted.
- whyhow 6y agoI think it is wrong to assume that something is inherently bad just because it is addictive.
- Jarmsy 6y agoWhat definition of addiction are you going by? Most seem to include some mention of 'despite adverse effects' or similar. Otherwise isn't it just dependence?
- bryanrasmussen 6y agoIt is difficult to get a man to understand something when his morning cup of coffee depends upon his not understanding it.
- cc81 6y agoI don't know. I can feel a slight dependence on caffeine if I have been drinking a lot during some weeks and then stopping cold turkey (slight headache, possibly slightly more tired in a day or two) but it does not feel very addictive. For a long period of time I only drank coffee during the week and not weekends, sometimes I stopped some summers and when I slept badly I stopped drinking coffee for a while. No problem at all with any of that. I do like like the small energy burst in the morning when I'm working and I like the ritual when it is winter in Sweden it is dark and cold outside and you are freezing, then drinking a cup of coffee as you start up your computer is nice.
- JanSt 6y agoI have cycled between heavy consumption and no coffee intake at all. On the first few days I often had headaches and felt slightly depressive (I'm pretty much never feeling depressive otherwise) and unproductive. After a week or so off of caffeine I start to feel great until I restart my coffee habit (the first few days are amazing; it just tastes too good; it is social to drink coffee with friends, family and coworkers; etc.)
- etaioinshrdlu 6y agoThe funny thing is caffeine is produced by the plant to try to poison herbivores. It’s a very effective insecticide. So are perhaps most other drugs made by plants.
- dehrmann 6y agoIt's the same thing with nicotine and capsaicin (we like these) and cyanide (not so much).
- jayd16 6y agoWith the exception of fruit perhaps, isn't almost everything produced to deter getting eaten?
- etaioinshrdlu 6y agoYeah, I would say so. But these chemicals are just defense mechanisms with no other benefit to the plant.
- simonsarris 6y agoEggs and milk are produced to be eaten (by the new organism) and are as close to "stuff produced to be eaten" that you get, perhaps. Super nutrient dense growth broths. Seeds and legumes are meant to be eaten (by the new plant), but often have anti-plant-eater defenses (like cyanide), including in fruit. Eggs and milk do not seem to have such an analogue. Fat stores are produced to be eaten (by the host itself), alas.
- acituan 6y agoI can help but feel lied to when there is only a laundry list of "good"s and no analysis on downsides. When I read "it helps with this" "it prevents this", I always ask "but at what cost". Can an exogenous molecule that was so adaptive be missed this bad and now consuming it will just fill that gap we had for millions of years? Let's not kid ourselves. Concentrated caffeine is a drug and not a nutrient. We drink it because it is psychoactive and we habituate to it. Try drinking redbull as a caffeine-naive person or not drinking coffee as a daily drinker. If an exogenous substance is that potent, it is a drug. (Even though I like it myself too, it is also pretty shit of a drug in my opinion, with 5 hr half-life, a dice roll every time whether it is gonna create more sleep than focus and a steep tolerance curve.) Magic mushrooms also have nutritional value, nicotine also has some benefits, beer has tons of calories, they might even have adaptive value with occasional use. You might enjoy them, you might drink coffee everyday. That is fine. But they are all drugs and not nutrients.
- ip26 6y agoCan an exogenous molecule that was so adaptive be missed this bad and now consuming it will just fill that gap we had for millions of years? Maybe we didn't have a gap for millions of years. The African kola nut contains caffeine and is supposedly a popular stimulant.
- acituan 6y agoThat was exactly my point. The molecule is not novel. It indeed existed and we had the opportunity to evolve with its ambient presence. If the laundry list of advantages were that important, it would have created selective pressure on those who didn’t consume it. But it didn’t prove itself as indispensable while other nutrients did; that’s why they are nutrients and caffeine isn’t.
- Mirioron 6y agoWe don't need (many) carbs either, yet it's the biggest part of our diet and has been for a long time. We still call it a nutrient.
- andy_ppp 6y agoI love caffeine and coffee! I used to drink two to three cups per day but for the last 6 months I’ve been feeling rather unwell when taking it; I start getting sweaty hands, shakes, heart palpitations, and start feeling sick and anxious shortly afterwards. I would love to be able to keep drinking coffee but the price is now too high! I have been drinking decaf coffee which is okay but I miss the real thing. If anyone knows a way I scan keep my caffeine buzz without the above I’d love to know...
- Honga 6y agoMatcha tea has a bunch of stuff that is supposed to suppress the negatives of caffeine and keep the positives. Also the taste is strong enough to be a decent coffee replacement.
- dionian 6y agoL-Theanine? goes great with coffee (not mixed, just taken near the same time) - smooths out the jitters. Probably why Tea is more 'calming'
- d33 6y agoCould you point to any research? I asked many doctors but nobody really knew about the substance nor could tell me whether it's safe to supplement.
- bavell 6y agoFWIW, 200mg of L-Theanine is included in my workout recovery supplement. Research seems sparse but here's what they say about it: (scroll down, click ingredients tab) https://athleanx.com/athleanrx/reconstruxion https://athleanx.com/athleanrx/reconstruxion
- gjs278 6y agothat’s because doctors are retards. it’s safe. it’s an amino acid. it’s commonly mixed with caffeine. be your own doctor and look it up on examine.com
- mcnamaratw 6y agoI like coffee. Let's skip the marketing words and look at the data.
- simias 6y ago>Coffee drinkers have been found to have lower cadmium in tissues; coffee making removes heavy metals from water. How does that work? Where do the metals go? Searching in the rest of the article I find: >Coffee drinkers, for example, have been found to have lower levels of cadmium in their kidneys than people who don’t use coffee, and coffee is known to inhibit the absorption of iron by the intestine, helping to prevent iron overload. I'm immediately suspicious of the way this is framed (I know many people who suffer from lack of iron, I guess they should avoid coffee). And what about the heavy metals then?
- maxerickson 6y agoPresumably the metals are absorbed by the grounds.
- 1MachineElf 6y agoPerhaps the diuretic effect of caffeine contributes to the flushing out of all things, some heavy metals included?
- ta17711771 6y agoThe beans, I'd imagine.
- refurb 6y agoCoffee grounds are a crude form of activated charcoal, which is used to bind up metals and other toxic substances.
- kortex 6y agoPhenols/catechols in general tend to reduce (in the electron sense) and complex with metals. This can be anti-nutrious if binding iron or calcium, or beneficial, if binding heavy metals.
- mial 6y agoYes, this is indeed a weird way to frame the effect of coffee on iron absorption. There's a lot of medical litterature about how coffee often play a role in iron deficiency.
- sprusemoose 6y agoMy teeth doctor told me it's bad for my teeth, so I now use a straw to pumpjack my demon nectar glorious feast
- dsego 6y agoYou can also wash it away with a glass of water. It's common in cafes to get a glass of water with coffee. After every sip of coffee take a sip of water. This helps wit hydration as well.
- omani 6y agocoffe does not dehydrate. that myth was debunked long time ago. the reason you get a cup of water to your coffe at cafes is to drink the water BEFORE you drink the coffee. the water helps to neutralize any (bad) taste in your mouth (eg after a meal) so you can get the most out of the aroma of the coffee.
- user982 6y agoAre you sure they were warning about drinking it, and not its effect of worsening bruxism?
- DiabloD3 6y agoHe was incorrect based on the existing evidence. Sugar-laden diets combined with both a mineral poor diet (ergo, no dental remineralization) and a constant subclinical dehydration (did you drink your gallon of water today? no? saliva is the vehicle for said remineralization, and is one of the first to be hit during early stages of dehyrdation; water is required to maintain the pH of your mouth) is bad your teeth. The worst coffee can do is stain already poor enamel. Coffee is hardly acidic, and its a myth that its more destructive. Now, if you drink your coffee with sugar? Thats bad, learn to drink it black. https://www.ada.org/en/~/media/ADA/Public%20Programs/Files/JADA_The%20pH%20of%20beverages%20in%20the%20United%20States https://www.ada.org/en/~/media/ADA/Public%20Programs/Files/J... Anything on this list that is below a pH of 5 you should strongly avoid. pH is a log scale, so, pH of 5 is 10x worse than 6, 4 is 10x worse than 5 or 100x worse than 6; the hydroxyapatite in tooth enamel starts to dissolve at 5.5, and coffee is only 5.11, well within your mouth's ability to handle. If he warned you because you suffer from bruxism, not because of tooth decay, for most people, just follow the normal rules for coffee that everyone else should follow: avoid caffeine 6 hours before bed.
- DoreenMichele 6y agoThe one thing that interests me in this piece is the bit about cadmium and heavy metals and the references at the bottom don't seem to list a study pertinent to this. I've used "search page" and I've skimmed through all the titles, but I have crap eyesight. So maybe I'm missing the reference. But I would love to see good research relating caffeine or coffee consumption to somehow helping with heavy metal issues.
- ethbro 6y agoThe initial phrasing about heavy metals sounded to me like it was referring to the brewing process (without being specific as to which one). At first approximation, I'd be surprised if agitating heated water in the presence of particular matter that increased its acidity, then running it through a fine woven filter, didn't have some net effect. As for the exact mechanism and efficacy, that's unfortunately buried under 10,000,000 search results for coffee enema products...
- DoreenMichele 6y agoYeah, I caught that. But I also chalked it up to "the most defensible thing to say." It's part of why I would like to see studies of some sort. I've done a little googling myself and wasn't thrilled with the results either, which is why I returned to the article to look at its sources to see if I could find a better place to start -- a thread to pull, if you will, to begin to unravel this question. Good sources tend to lead to other good sources, if only by telling you what sorts of phrases to use in your next search.
- shrimp_emoji 6y agoI would think the heavy metals bit might be about metals in the coffee itself, from the soil it's grown in. This is common for cacao[0]. What sucks is, iirc, only the EU has limits for cadmium in food imports (or may in the near future?). Beyond that, California requires stuff to have a Proposition 65 label if it's too high in cadmium (but California's limit is significantly higher than what the EU was going to be). >I'd be surprised if agitating heated water in the presence of particular matter that increased its acidity, then running it through a fine woven filter, didn't have some net effect. Like sifting for gold? xD 0: https://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/food-safety/article/there-cadmium-your-cocoa https://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/food-safety/...
- bob1029 6y agoI've been off caffeine for going on 40 days now. Work/health were suffering and I needed to hit the reset button. Some days its rough, but on average the change is worth it now. Last week I was able to deal with an extremely stressful event at work without losing my calm. If I had been hopped up on my usual morning brew under similar circumstances, I probably would have made some serious career-altering mistakes (not necessarily my career).
- originalvichy 6y agoGood work, I know how hard it is to kick it.
- mustachionut 6y agoPeople who aren’t super healthy don’t typically feel like drinking lots of caffeine. I think that’s a more likely explanation than caffeine having tons of assorted health benefits.
- chrischattin 6y agoI think it's the opposite. People drink caffeine to mask an unhealthy lifestyle – lack of sleep, hungover, poor diet, sedentary, out of shape, etc.
- kitotik 6y agoHaha. So, your theory is that all the humans over the course of history who consume caffeine do so to mask generally bad health? Can I guess that you yourself don’t drink caffeine?
- chrischattin 6y agoNo. I think humans drink caffeine because it's a dopamine agonist and highly addictive. The longest I've made it is four months. Currently a couple weeks back drinking coffee, about to quit again. It's ridiculously hard.
- thebean11 6y agoNot arguing one way or the other, but the comment you replied to did not imply every single caffeine drinker falls into that category
- herval 6y agoCoffee is a social drink in many countries, and associated with relaxation, meeting people, being creative. And it has been like that since the first coffee houses...
- cutler 6y agoIf caffeine is so good for us and not simply the drug that it is why do I feel so lousy for at least 2 weeks after giving it up? There is most definitely a withdrawal effect. Furthermore this article muddies the water between caffeine and coffee. How many of the listed benefits are due to the non-caffeine elements within coffee?
- stagger87 6y agoBy that logic, giving up water for two weeks would lead to withdrawal effects. Does that make it bad? Not defending caffeine, only pointing out poor logic.
- why-el 6y agoThe logic is not poor at all, for quite mundane reasons. Giving up water will kill you, while giving up caffeine for enough time means it is no longer needed (and it is also, quite obviously, not needed for people who don't drink it already).
- lazyasciiart 6y agoOk, try giving up fibre in your diet for a while. Or vitamins A/B/C/D/whatever, or many other nutrients.
- esperent 6y agoI posit that you, sir/madam, are the one exhibiting poor logic. Giving up water for two weeks would lead to death. That's hardly the same as temporary mild withdrawal symptoms of coffee. That is the difference between a drug/supplement like caffeine, and an essential nutrient like water or vitamin C.
- herval 6y agoYou’d be dead, without water for two weeks. Slight difference between a withdraw and a biological need, no?
- jayd16 6y ago
- joemazerino 6y agoCoffee and caffeine are not mutually exclusive. Coffee is one of the best drinks for antioxidants (without milk). Caffeine in large quantities is bad for the health. Moderate and experiment.
- brokensegue 6y ago>antioxidants the evidence supporting the value of antioxidants is v. weak. indeed some evidence suggests they increase your chances of cancer.
- mrkstu 6y agoDepends- I’ve seen studies like that for supplements, but not for antioxidants obtained via food.
- chrischattin 6y agoI have a theory that 50 years from now people will look back on caffeine the same way we look back on everyone smoking in the 50's. There were tons of "smoking is healthy" articles back then too, and it was baked into the culture. Caffeine's negatives are more hidden and second order effects that come from increased cortisol levels, lack of sleep, adrenal fatigue, etc. I've done a bunch of research on this and might write it up in a blog post someday.
- justinator 6y ago> write it up in a blog post someday No time like the present! Brew up a pot, and get hammerin'! :)
- whycombagator 6y ago> Caffeine's negatives are more hidden and second order effects that come from increased cortisol levels, lack of sleep, adrenal fatigue, etc. I've done a bunch of research on this and might write it up in a blog post someday. Care to post any links to this research/citations for those claims?
- astura 6y agoYou aren't going to find any legitimate research that caffeine causes adrenal fatigue or is associated with adrenal fatigue because there's no such thing as adrenal fatigue.
- vczf 6y agoTrue on "adrenal" fatigue, but it does increase cortisol levels and blood pressure. Chronic use will also lead to increased run-of-the-mill fatigue. Caffeine works by blocking adenosine receptors, which is part of the mechanism for feeling tired. So the brain compensates by creating more receptors and flooding the brain with adenosine. If there are no caffeine molecules in the brain to block the receptors, you will crash. Consume more caffeine, and voila: you feel normal again.
- throwaway180118 6y ago
- Paddywack 6y agoLets talk about Decaffeinated coffee (asking for a friend...) (a) what benefits of coffee are not attributable to the caffeine, and (b) does the decaffeination process introduce any "side effects" in terms of harmful chemicals etc. Seriously - I was drinking far too much coffee during lockdown and have switched 2 days ago to decaf. Too early to tell, but it feels like less triggering of hyperness...
- j88439h84 6y agoDecaf still has some caffeine, just less.
- mellosouls 6y agoThis doesn't answer your specific question, but I use a mix of decaf and full according to time of day. So through the day it goes: full (morning), low caff (mix) (afternoon), decaf (evening). No need for it to be either/or. fwiw
- jmartrican 6y agoI do same. First cup is regular. Then decaf rest of day. For some reason, when I worked from home, I was getting a headache in the afternoon. All the time. Then one day I only got a chance to get my first cup of coffee. On that day, no headache. So upon further testing it turned out that I can only drink one regular cup when working from home. But on weekends or working from the office, this is not an issue. Only working from home.
- 6y ago
- SeanFerree 6y agoGreat read!
- starchild_3001 6y agoRay Peat is an interesting researcher. His ideas tend to be original (as in he does his own research & analysis). Yet, I find a lot of things in his writings that don't gel with my research or the broader research. Namely, he does his own selective reading and comes up with a theory---just like everyone else. E.g. he doesn't recognize hormesis (benefits from fasting or occasional nutrient deprivation). He also espouses a heavy sugar laden diet such as drinking orange juice on a continuous basis and avoiding fiber and starches. He sometimes paints a very black and white picture: XYZ is good, ABC is bad, ignoring the context or the nonlinear dose response relationship. Long story short, he's a curious character. I would take his writings with a grain of salt.
- briefcomment 6y agoHe speaks as if he's making "black/white" statements, but if you listen to him long enough, his ideas do contradict each other. I think the most valuable thing to take away from him is that only you can detect good health by paying attention and making decisions in real time, and that the optimal combo will always be in flux. It's like when he constantly restates his bio on radio shows. He's just a conduit for whatever his intuition tells him is right. I don't hang on the specifics of his work, but rather the mindset that intuition, curiosity, and attention will save you.
- evbpcapfxy 6y agoCould you clarify what ideas contradict each other?
- briefcomment 6y agoAs an example, sometimes Ray will say starch is bad, and other times he will say that starch is compatible with a healthy lifestyle. His stance on most things is probably the dose and the condition of the body at any given time determines the nutrient/poison, but he will make firm statements over radio shows and podcasts because, if I had to guess, he says what he thinks is best for the audience given the medium and time constraints. Ultimately, you as an individual will miss things if you rely on someone else's observations instead of your own. Ray's recommendations are a good starting point, but you will likely be better off if you have the last word on what you do and do not do. And Ray would be the first to admit that :).
- metrokoi 6y agoCaffeine gets a lot of love and hate. Personally, I think it's close to a miracle molecule. What other drug can give such an effective boost to wakefulness, mood, and focus with the only main side effects being possible sleep loss and jitteriness/discomfort? Many focus on physical side effects, but I have never seen any evidence of it negatively affecting mental health, despite being psychoactive. I have not consumed amphetamine, cocaine, or the like, but I have tried many legal "nootropics" and all are <= effective compared caffeine with more side-effects. I take a small portion of a caffeine tablet under my tongue for exercising and occasionally for study and work. I am more healthy today than I was a year or more ago, a large part in thanks to caffeine getting me off my butt to run when I don't feel like running, and (safely) allowing me to push myself harder and get a better cardiovascular workout. Is it accurate to call it a vitamin-like nutrient? No, because obviously it's not like vitamin D3 or C where very high levels are beneficial and we don't need caffeine to survive, but it can be taken in moderate doses indefinitely and still positively impact one's health. It depends on how you define "nutrient".
- luckylion 6y ago> What other drug can give such an effective boost to wakefulness, mood, and focus with the only main side effects being possible sleep loss and jitteriness/discomfort? Modafinil. At least for me (and basically everybody I know that tried it) it's much better than caffeine. Much clearer wakefulness, more focus, less physical, more deep concentration, and fewer side effects (if any).
- aj-4 6y agoI'd rate it above most, but we are not sure about the side effects since there are no long term studies on it imo it's good for certain things like coding but significantly reduces lateral thinking / creativity kinda gives you "mental tunnel vision"
- luckylion 6y agoI agree that it may not be suited for every situation, and I really, really wish there were more long-term studies, but at least the ones there are (that I'm aware of) do not suggest horrible results. Given that it produces great results for many people, I feel like we're missing a massive opportunity by focusing on "if you're not really ill, you don't need medication".
- alexmingoia 6y agoThis is stupid. You can enjoy caffeine and that’s fine. Nothing wrong with that. But it is a drug. Your body does not need caffeine to sustain itself, like it does nutrients.
- JoshuaDavid 6y agoThis proves too much. Consider > You can enjoy black pepper and that’s fine. Nothing wrong with that. But it is a drug. Your body does not need black pepper to sustain itself, like it does nutrients. A definition of "drug" that counts spices as drugs is probably not a useful definition.
- 3131s 6y agoRaw nutmeg is actually a very powerful drug, and even dried ground nutmeg has an interesting long-lasting high if you take enough of it. I've done it a long time ago... it's really unpleasant to actually consume that much nutmeg, even in gel capsules, but the feeling is pleasant, warm, and hazy. I took it in the middle of the day and started to feel the effects late at night, and then the next morning I woke up sky high. It's a fairly lucid drug with an strong body high, but I don't recommend it!
- dghughes 6y agoAs someone with acid reflux caffeine is like nuclear waste. I never drank coffee or tea at all until my mid 30s. Now I have GERD and still drink it, I should stop.
- shrimp_emoji 6y ago403 Forbidden Access to this resource on the server is denied! It's not easy availing yourself of VPNs as basic Internet hygiene in current year. :C
- carusooneliner 6y agoFunny this blog in support of caffeine comes out when I'm two weeks into kicking my coffee habit. Are people going caffeine-free en masse? In my case, I paid more attention to what I was consuming and coffee seemed like a good thing to drop.
- ctrlcctrlv 6y agoIf you're interested in a brief 'story' of caffeine - its roots and history leading up to its role in society today, check out Michael Pollan's 'Caffeine: How Caffeine Created the Modern World' audiobook. It's a short listen (by audiobook standards at least) and explores the the 'good', the 'bad' and everything in between of caffeine and coffee, often using himself as a lab rat to test theories that he comes across in his research.
- dreamlayers 6y agoIs this reasonably balanced? I'm sure there have been a huge amount of studies of caffeine, and maybe they're favouring those which make caffeine look good.
- temptemptemp111 6y agoAny other article by this guy would be censored from HN due to its anti-vaccination / anti-mainstream medicine content.
- jokoon 6y agohow probable is it that this study was financed by people who have interests in selling coffee? if something is not a medicine, in general, it should deserve more scrutiny.
- presiozo 6y agoIf you: 1) Cite only the positive studies 2) Don't make any claims about effect size (i.e. correlation strength & predictive strength) You can basically make this point about literally any substance with enough studies on it. Ranging from melatonin to insulin, to idk... probably not mercury? So I guess that's a strike against 1 and 2 being fully generalizable.