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I'm pretty bearish on the pandemic actually leading to massive change in the number of people permanently working from home. My boss put out a survey a week or

I'm pretty bearish on the pandemic actually leading to massive change in the number of people permanently working from home. My boss put out a survey a week or two ago among my org (30 or so people), and 70% said that they want to work from the office, full time, 20% said some time or most of the time, and 10% said fully remote. And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc). I just don't think that this will change much. There is just too much detrimental effect one one's career from not being seen at the office. For a company that's not fully remote (i.e. gitlab), people who are fully remote are going to fall behind in promotions, etc. There's just not enough benefit for people who don't hate the bay area.

caseysoftware 6y ago
I've seen/heard different numbers from elsewhere: 20% want to work from home permanently 20% want to get back to the office full time 60% want flexibility somewhere in between Personally, I think the specific breakdown is less important than companies realizing that letting people be remote can improve work/life balance, reduces office space needs, and they have most of the infrastructure to support it. As an industry, we still need to figure out mentorship and career development for remote/partially-remote teams, but I'm optimistic on that front.
- take_a_breath 6y ago
  ==reduces office space needs== While increasing their employees home-space needs. People will need bigger houses and apartments if everyone is going to work from home long-term.
  - neutronicus 6y ago
    Which they will find, for the same price, out in the sticks when they don't need to drive in.
    - take_a_breath 6y ago
      Which suggests we will need to build new houses to satisfy all the demand. Which is exactly the question I was asking. How will those housing needs differ from today's? Will homes need more space for offices? play areas? gardens? bathrooms? Will multi-generational housing come back in-style to support elderly?
      - lliamander 6y ago
        It's a good point. Definitely the need for a separate office. Another important discussion along those lines is the availability of fast, reliable internet.
    - jandrewrogers 6y ago
      Many people don't want to live in the sticks, they have a preference for where they already live.
      - neutronicus 6y ago
        Then they can enjoy their newly-lower rent.
  - acituan 6y ago
    People need bigger houses for other reasons too, including a growing family, having space for gathering with their friends and community, for their hobbies etc. And I’m not talking about a luxurious McMansion, just something bigger than a $3500 1 bedroom apartment where you can’t have a friendsgiving with more than 4 guests. Being able to work from home long term means not being tied to ultra-premium land for your private space. Not eating up the externality of your company deciding to hire 10s of thousands more workers in your already crammed city, not being forced to choose between the externality of longer commute time or inflated, subpar housing services.
    - take_a_breath 6y ago
      You are talking about personal reasons that people need more space, which is absolutely true. I am talking about a fundamental shift in how we perform work as a society. If everyone, all at once, starts working from home and avoiding offices, it is reasonable to assume that some of that office space will need to be re-created in houses, which will increase the necessary size for houses. Things like the average size of a new house and the average amenities people include (an extra office, an extra bathroom, a separated "play area", mesh wi-fi friendly, etc.).
    - edm0nd 6y ago
      God damn. $3,500 for a 1br apt. You must for sure live in SF lol. That's enough to purchase a full on mansion here in Louisiana.
      - take_a_breath 6y ago
        It's $500 more than my mortgage for a single-family-home in Chicago.
      - nitrogen 6y ago
        It gets even worse if you want to have your own w/d in a building that isn't 100 years old.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    If people have the option to work remotely, they're more likely going to move to places where land is plentiful and cheap.
    - jandrewrogers 6y ago
      That's not helpful for the majority of people that actually like where they live. I live in the middle of a city because I like living in the middle of a city, for reasons that have nothing to do with where I work. Most people are not harboring a secret desire to suddenly move to a completely different type of neighborhood for the cheap land if they no longer have to commute. Being forced to purchase a larger living space because a company decides to go remote is transferring a business cost to the employee. The same goes for being forced to move to a different neighborhood with land that is "plentiful and cheap" because you can't afford to buy a bigger place in your current neighborhood.
      - lliamander 6y ago
        You make some good points. I don't know that your desire matches with the majority of people living in a big city. I mean, I'm sure there are lots of people who do like living there, but there are also lots of people who have moved from elsewhere to big cities specifically for job opportunities. Being in a big city has its advantages (jobs, access to more specialized businesses and ammenities) but also its costs (crime, lack of natural beauty, etc.). I think you may find that, after everyone who wanted to leave the city can, the costs for those who want to remain might settle down.
        take_a_breath 6y ago
        I’m not saying you’re wrong, but you first need to establish that there is, in fact, a large group of people living in cities because they “have to” for work. I don’t think this can be treated as a fact without some evidence. The power of cities isn’t some US-only phenomenon, it has been the dominant economic engine for centuries.
nostrademons 6y ago
Likely some selection bias there, in that your company was not fully remote when people took their jobs. People tend to take a job that is suited for them: if they want to work in an office, they take an office job, if they want to work remotely, they'll take a remote job. Remote-only or remote-primary companies exist (see: WordPress, GitHub, Gitlab, ElasticSearch, Ethereum, MakerDao); many of the people who actually want to work remotely already work for one. I do suspect your numbers are probably pretty close to right, though, given the number of jobs at such remote-only companies vs. those at traditional Silicon Valley offices.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I suspect on the (hopefully) other side of this, you're going to have some who really don't want to go back to an office full-time and others who can't wait to be back but hate that many of their co-workers no longer come in on a typical day. Depending on the overall employment situation, a lot of people are going to find that the office situation at their employer is no longer one they want going forward.
dougmwne 6y ago
This survey result not surprising to me at all. Even if it was 10x more efficient to work from home in every circumstance, if the office didn't exist, we would need to invent it. There is a human social nature, and remote work goes against it. The office makes most of us feel important and useful. Managing others who only appear on a screen doesn't have the same ego jolt as having your employees there in person. And many people want to be managed and feel lost and disconnected without an actual in-person person to guide them. And that peer camaraderie doesn't feel as nice when your peers are not psychically with you. We have to all realize that it takes a very specific type of personality and set of life goals to thrive in a fully remote workplace.
Consultant32452 6y ago
One thing to keep in mind is that this is NOT what working remotely is really like. During normal times if I am missing socialization at work I can make up for it by going out more during the week. During normal times if I want I can spend a few hours working from the local cafe. But the cafes are closed. During normal times, kids are at school for most of the day so they don't disrupt you. But schools are closed. I'm not suggesting people will prefer what normal remote work life is like, but I don't think they're experiencing it right now.
- s0rce 6y ago
  That is a really important point, but I think that it still doesn't counter the argument about the career downsides of being remote when you don't work for a 100% remote organization. My company is pretty flexible but as a scientist/engineer I still have some duties where being in the lab is necessary. I'll probably increase my remote work for now but likely not move further away. I enjoy my bike commute in the East Bay.
  - kuanbutts 6y ago
    I used to work in N Berkeley and live in Oakland by the lake. A lifestyle where you live and work in the E Bay is simply unparalleled.
  - rohansingh 6y ago
    People weight "career downsides" differently. A lot of folks who are further in their careers are done trying to climb the ladder and would be happy working remotely.
    - Consultant32452 6y ago
      Two other cynical additions. Not everyone is as concerned about "productivity". Also, there's a nonzero chance that someone whose productivity drops dramatically when working from home were only ever productive because they were leeching productivity out of others. Every team seems to have someone like this, and they can be safely gotten rid of.
whatok 6y ago
Surveys are fine and all but in some industries/companies, workers are not going to have much say in this. When it comes down to cost savings from increased productivity and reduced/eliminated office space, the decision is very easy for some. Not to say it's the right decision but it's a decision some are going to make with some limited data at hand.
tibiahurried 6y ago
> people who are fully remote are going to fall behind in promotions, Unfortunately, I have to agree with that. There is also the case that if you have to work from the office. Make sure your boss is not remote. I had that experience, and it sucked.
dontbenebby 6y ago
>There is just too much detrimental effect one one's career from not being seen at the office. For a company that's not fully remote (i.e. gitlab), people who are fully remote are going to fall behind in promotions, etc. I thought the model in SV/SF is often you need to change jobs to get substantial pay bumps/title increases.
- codemac 6y ago
  I don't think I've seen anyone getting great referrals to pay bumps through changing jobs without building in-person relationships
ngngngng 6y ago
I asked this casually with /polly in slack the other day and was surprised that our engineering department was split 50/50. 50% thinking we should go fully remote and 50% being very adamant that they needed an office to work in the majority of the time.
- otoburb 6y ago
  One factor that might bias these results are the type of setup that one has in the office compared to the home, primarily available space (i.e. spare bedrom) and office equipment (i.e. ergonomic chairs home/office & large/multiple computer monitors).
- dv_dt 6y ago
  That actually isn't bad is it? Cut back 50% on office space for savings (or leave some extra for growth), and have both groups accommodated.
  - otoburb 6y ago
    The follow-on repercussion is that the pendulum swings even further to open-seating hot desk arrangements.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      While I think that's true, I work for a company that even normally has a lot of remote and mostly WFH employees. In general, people who come in more then X% of the time can still get an assigned spot. But--at least if space is tight--you'll need to hot desk if you just come in a day or two per week or less.
_jal 6y ago
> young, no kids, etc There is your major reason for that survey result. Companies with median-older workforces will see more enthusiasm for remote work.
- rietta 6y ago
  In my 30s, married, with kids, and a dog. Will NEVER willingly commute into an office. I'm significantly more productive and have build a life style around getting my work done, quick lunch break, walking the dog is get up from my desk at healthy intervals. When paired with a results only work environment, allows me to handle errands during non peak hours and then finish up any remaining work in the evening hours after things calm down and there are fewer distractions. 1. Morning: Meetings 2. Afternoon: Actual work 3. Family/dinner 4. Evenings after a break: Catch up with any email/work slack 5. Time with wife/family 6. Sleep and repeat. I LOVE not having to factor commute time in with all this. So productive.
  - jschwartzi 6y ago
    God yes. That extra hour or two a day is worth any pay cut I might theoretically take. And I'm content maybe being a lead or a senior engineer for a while. I don't care that much about promotions. I actually got a huge raise changing jobs from a fully in-office one to a fully remote one though.
  - cols 6y ago
    Super agree with this. I have a wife, twin 7 y/o boys, and an infant. I would so much rather not have to deal with the commute and office BS on a regular basis. The time that I previously spent on commuting can now be redirected towards spending time with my family, straightening the house, doing yard work, getting groceries, working on personal projects, reading, exercising, etc. Even with normally short commute, I find myself saving 1-1.5 hrs daily. It doesn't sound like a lot, but when your margin for time is already SO tight, it can make a big difference.
- capableweb 6y ago
  I read it the other way. Only people who are young with no distractions at home, favor working at home. People who usually have family members at home, get too distracted compared to a office environment, to prefer working at home.
Turing_Machine 6y ago
> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc). I just don't think that this will change much. I'm not sure that follows. It seems to me that people with spouses and especially children would be more interested in working from home, not less.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  While working from home, kids can often be a major distraction. Not insurmountable, but especially given that most people have been forced into some variety of home-schooling at the same time they were pushed into working from home, I could understand many people with kids choosing to go to an office.
  - chongli 6y ago
    People with kids often have different priorities. Having a slam dunk, distraction free, high productivity work day tends to be lower on the priority list. Spending time with your partner, taking care of the kids, cooking and eating dinner with the family; these all tend to be higher on the priority list. There are exceptions. Some people don’t respond well to the stresses of family life and want to escape to the office. Hopefully these people decide not to have children in the first place.
    - Turing_Machine 6y ago
      Yes. I'm thinking of the old saying about no one ever arriving at his deathbed wishing he'd spent less time with his kids.
      - Turing_Machine 6y ago
        Wow. Someone is feeling guilty, I reckon.
    - neutronicus 6y ago
      Some partners and some children are bad with boundaries.
geddy 6y ago
It's a damn shame, really, the slavish devotion to one's car and spending hours a day sitting in traffic apparently is apparently preferred over actually getting time back in your everyday life. It's like people have adapted to having no life outside of work, and now they're just so bored they'd rather lose that time than just find a new hobby or learn something. I don't think I've ever thought about anything more depressing than a group of people who want less free time in their day. I wonder how their opinions will change once they're immediately thrust back into an office environment 5 days a week, have less time back in their schedule per day, and start paying for gas and auto repairs again. The grass always seems greener, doesn't it. Editing this because good lord if there were private messages here I'm sure I'd have death threats by now: I don't care if you like the office, or how cool your city is and how great your commute is - go to the damn office if you like the office! My point is that when people opt for FORCED office presence, rather than a FLEXIBLE work from home policy (AGAIN, FLEXIBLE MEANS YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT), it makes more sense than locking everyone into a situation that may or may not involve sitting in a car every day, like 90% of Americans still do every day. (source: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2013/10/28/ninety-percent-of-americans-drive-to-work/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2013/10/28/nine...)
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  For me it has reinforced my opposition to remote work. I feel like without a dedicated space for work, it is hard for me to mentally unplug from work. I'm already burned out from 2 months of this. I feel like I never know what day it is. Pre-pandemic, I set my life up so that I was walking distance to everything I needed. My apartment is super small, but that's fine when things are open. I'm actually considering buying a car and moving out to the suburbs because I see my inner-city neighborhood rapidly descending into squalor. I think most city-dwellers with financial means are at least considering the same.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    Squalor because of the virus?
iab 6y ago
I have to agree. It brings to mind the Friends episode with Rachel being excluded for not-smoking; same dynamic will come to play with the in-office vs. remote.
papito 6y ago
The optics of being in the office will never change. Humans are very shallow and highly visual. I see - therefore you are. That said, there is a middle ground. You have to be in the office twice a week in order to achieve the full benefit of face-to-face interaction. I, for one, would welcome having to get out of the house twice a week and go talk to actual humans, go to lunch, or to a bar.
chakerb 6y ago
The fact that people were forced to stay at home may influence their view. If people willingly choose to try working from home, I would guess that the result would be much different. Not only that but the fact the you are stuck at home all day long would make you eventually leaning towards getting out.
allsystemsgo 6y ago
Maybe employees should just decide for themselves how they work best.
driverdan 6y ago
I've worked remote for a long time and agree with what you said. The company culture really needs to be focused on remote work for it to succeed. Remote first is far better than remote allowed.
dcolkitt 6y ago
I see it from the opposite side. This won't be employee-pulled, but company-pushed. Many organizations are going to be significantly cash-strapped at the end of this recession. One of the juiciest targets will be cutting the high fixed cost of office leases. Especially in expensive areas like Silicon Valley. If a company can push the average employee to work from home 3 days a week, they can convert to floating desks and cut their real estate costs by 50% or more.
- mikeryan 6y ago
  I run a small tech company in the Bay Area, and while rents are not cheap, they end up being a very small percentage of costs - particularly compared to salaries. I think you'll find some companies that your suggestion as workable but I don't see a lot of companies embracing it wholesale from a financial perspective. Also most leases are fairly locked it's not an easy way to address short-term cash flow issues, especially compared to reducing headcount.
- chris11 6y ago
  Floating desks sounds really unenjoyable. Plus I'd have health concerns about that before a vaccine is developed.
imaadrashied 6y ago
I might be simplifying too much, but I would be surprised if more remote work didn't catch on. A decentralized workforce is easier to control in some aspects that are incredibly attractive to corporate leaders. Fewer spontaneous and f2f interactions between people makes it easier to: 1) Ensure folks are focusing primarily on work instead of anything else associated with being a part of a company 2) All hierarchical decisions (promoting / not promoting) can be done without much personal interaction so turns employees more into school children where grades on certain things determine moving up or not 3) Easier to fire folks if you don’t get as close to them and if they’re not right there in front of you Not advantageous for small/mid-size companies with strong cultures. Advantageous for small/mid-size co’s with weak cultures. Large companies obviously benefit, surprised more don’t go remote.
matchagaucho 6y ago
Employees that optimize for promotions and comp are far more likely to churn anyway, as 20% increases are available every 18 months by job hopping. Loyalty of remote workers is probably a metric more orgs should be considering.
dreen 6y ago
We had a similar survey. 1000+ people commercial FM radio company (so more media than tech). About 20% want to go back to the office.
talmr 6y ago
Remote whiteboarding is challenging. In the office, we can just make a breakout session and grab a whiteboard and jam something out. We're all present, nobody randomly sounds like a cyborg about to wreck the city, and we can actually get something done rather than have another follow up after someone puts all this into "notes".
- stevenwliao 6y ago
  Google Jamboard with company issued iPads solves the whiteboarding.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
7thaccount 6y ago
My company has ~600 employees with good diversity in age. Our recent survey showed strong support for work from home. The executives have always been against it, but admitted they could no longer say that it wouldn't work. One executive also said he's grown to like it. They've even started talking about allowing work from home on Fridays once we go back. A lot of folks commute from nearby suburbs, so this would be a game changer for many.
qiguai 6y ago
Was it anonymous? Who would want to notify their employer their intent to go remote? Especially a survey that could be to see whos against it.
whateveracct 6y ago
Young single people are also likely to couple their job & coworkers with their identity & society. So I could see them wishing they could be in the office.
pathseeker 6y ago
>suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc) Well that's your problem. Young people are the ones who like going into offices. People with families and kids are the ones who like remote (they have something to stay home for).
watwut 6y ago
I think it is other way round. Young people don't mind traveling to office or at least mind less. They also seek socialization more - whether on the clock or off the clock. When you have to take kids to school and from school, you feel time wasted by going to office more. Also, also those chit chats and socialization in the office and after work feel more like waste of time when you are older. When I was younger, it was cool, because when I stayed late to compensate no one except me was affected and I got to look like hard worker anyway. Now, it feels much more like loss.
doublesCs 6y ago
What I would really want is work full time from the office, but not be judged if once in a while ad-hoc I wish to work from home.
amf12 6y ago
> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc). This is the group of people that largely prefers working from the office, IMO.
ummonk 6y ago
> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc) That seems to be the group of people best suited for working from the office, since they can relocate to live close to work and don't have families to spend time with.
geodel 6y ago
> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc). Seems other way round to me. They are exactly the people who would like to come office, chill in cafe, play foosball, and video games etc and their residence may be small and/ or shared with room mates. People who are older would prefer home so they can take care of family also along with work.
formercoder 6y ago
Agreed. There is a ton of “things will never be the same” sentiment. That just cannot be true.
chris11 6y ago
I have the same concerns. Personally I liked coming into my office. My workspace was decent, I liked being able to have lunch with my coworkers, and the free food was good. Plus my commute was basically non-existent. I also have long term concerns about my career. Most of employees were working in the office, and the few employees who were remote, regularly came in for a few days. I was happy with my rent, and I wouldn't want to move that far away. So I wouldn't see much savings in time or money from moving.
- loco5niner 6y ago
  > My workspace was decent, I liked being able to have lunch with my coworkers, and the free food was good. Plus my commute was basically non-existent. If i could say all that, of course! I'd like the office too. I can't
dmode 6y ago
I had mentioned this in another post. I am personally sick and tired out working from home for over 2 months and cannot wait to get back to office. This is probably driven a lot by my role (PM) where you are basically in an endless stream of zoom meetings from 9-5. I get a nasty headache at the end of the day. I also yearn for social connections, quick chats, meeting in an outdoor space etc.
samatman 6y ago
In these times of severe economic anxiety, I'm shocked that 30% of your org were willing to put their necks out like that. Perhaps you have an excellent company culture. I'm part of an all-remote company, but at prior engagements, I might have cynically read such a survey as a roundabout loyalty pledge.
dgudkov 6y ago
I'm afraid what workers want is not really important. The pandemics became a huge proof-of-concept for many C-levels execs. The vast majority of them were absolutely sure that if the employees start working from home their companies would fall apart immediately. To their big surprise, that actually didn't happen when quarantine and WFH was enforced by governments. Now they can't stop thinking of WFH as of a huge cost-cutting opportunity. Nobody asked employees if they wanted open offices or not, it was simply enforced on them. The same will happen with WFH - it will be simply enforced, sometimes with a plausible, good-sounding justification.
fred_is_fred 6y ago
In reality - being older with kids is better for working from home than younger with no kids - assuming you have a proper workspace. I really enjoy being able to step out and have lunch with my family, to be home while my wife runs errands, etc. I also live with 5 other people and never really feel alone like a younger single person might. Also as I get older I end up on more conference calls (in management) and its a pain to take them in an open office like everyone has.
maddax 6y ago
From the other responses, it looks like the biggest factor is commute. I am very fortunate to have my workplace 5 mins from home by walk, and I don't see anyone in my situation preferring work-from-home.

caseysoftware 6y ago

I've seen/heard different numbers from elsewhere: 20% want to work from home permanently 20% want to get back to the office full time 60% want flexibility somewhere in between Personally, I think the specific breakdown is less important than companies realizing that letting people be remote can improve work/life balance, reduces office space needs, and they have most of the infrastructure to support it. As an industry, we still need to figure out mentorship and career development for remote/partially-remote teams, but I'm optimistic on that front.

take_a_breath 6y ago
==reduces office space needs== While increasing their employees home-space needs. People will need bigger houses and apartments if everyone is going to work from home long-term.
- neutronicus 6y ago
  Which they will find, for the same price, out in the sticks when they don't need to drive in.
  - take_a_breath 6y ago
    Which suggests we will need to build new houses to satisfy all the demand. Which is exactly the question I was asking. How will those housing needs differ from today's? Will homes need more space for offices? play areas? gardens? bathrooms? Will multi-generational housing come back in-style to support elderly?
    - lliamander 6y ago
      It's a good point. Definitely the need for a separate office. Another important discussion along those lines is the availability of fast, reliable internet.
  - jandrewrogers 6y ago
    Many people don't want to live in the sticks, they have a preference for where they already live.
    - neutronicus 6y ago
      Then they can enjoy their newly-lower rent.
- acituan 6y ago
  People need bigger houses for other reasons too, including a growing family, having space for gathering with their friends and community, for their hobbies etc. And I’m not talking about a luxurious McMansion, just something bigger than a $3500 1 bedroom apartment where you can’t have a friendsgiving with more than 4 guests. Being able to work from home long term means not being tied to ultra-premium land for your private space. Not eating up the externality of your company deciding to hire 10s of thousands more workers in your already crammed city, not being forced to choose between the externality of longer commute time or inflated, subpar housing services.
  - take_a_breath 6y ago
    You are talking about personal reasons that people need more space, which is absolutely true. I am talking about a fundamental shift in how we perform work as a society. If everyone, all at once, starts working from home and avoiding offices, it is reasonable to assume that some of that office space will need to be re-created in houses, which will increase the necessary size for houses. Things like the average size of a new house and the average amenities people include (an extra office, an extra bathroom, a separated "play area", mesh wi-fi friendly, etc.).
  - edm0nd 6y ago
    God damn. $3,500 for a 1br apt. You must for sure live in SF lol. That's enough to purchase a full on mansion here in Louisiana.
    - take_a_breath 6y ago
      It's $500 more than my mortgage for a single-family-home in Chicago.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      It gets even worse if you want to have your own w/d in a building that isn't 100 years old.
- lliamander 6y ago
  If people have the option to work remotely, they're more likely going to move to places where land is plentiful and cheap.
  - jandrewrogers 6y ago
    That's not helpful for the majority of people that actually like where they live. I live in the middle of a city because I like living in the middle of a city, for reasons that have nothing to do with where I work. Most people are not harboring a secret desire to suddenly move to a completely different type of neighborhood for the cheap land if they no longer have to commute. Being forced to purchase a larger living space because a company decides to go remote is transferring a business cost to the employee. The same goes for being forced to move to a different neighborhood with land that is "plentiful and cheap" because you can't afford to buy a bigger place in your current neighborhood.
    - lliamander 6y ago
      You make some good points. I don't know that your desire matches with the majority of people living in a big city. I mean, I'm sure there are lots of people who do like living there, but there are also lots of people who have moved from elsewhere to big cities specifically for job opportunities. Being in a big city has its advantages (jobs, access to more specialized businesses and ammenities) but also its costs (crime, lack of natural beauty, etc.). I think you may find that, after everyone who wanted to leave the city can, the costs for those who want to remain might settle down.
      - take_a_breath 6y ago
        I’m not saying you’re wrong, but you first need to establish that there is, in fact, a large group of people living in cities because they “have to” for work. I don’t think this can be treated as a fact without some evidence. The power of cities isn’t some US-only phenomenon, it has been the dominant economic engine for centuries.

nostrademons 6y ago

Likely some selection bias there, in that your company was not fully remote when people took their jobs. People tend to take a job that is suited for them: if they want to work in an office, they take an office job, if they want to work remotely, they'll take a remote job. Remote-only or remote-primary companies exist (see: WordPress, GitHub, Gitlab, ElasticSearch, Ethereum, MakerDao); many of the people who actually want to work remotely already work for one. I do suspect your numbers are probably pretty close to right, though, given the number of jobs at such remote-only companies vs. those at traditional Silicon Valley offices.

ghaff 6y ago
I suspect on the (hopefully) other side of this, you're going to have some who really don't want to go back to an office full-time and others who can't wait to be back but hate that many of their co-workers no longer come in on a typical day. Depending on the overall employment situation, a lot of people are going to find that the office situation at their employer is no longer one they want going forward.

dougmwne 6y ago

This survey result not surprising to me at all. Even if it was 10x more efficient to work from home in every circumstance, if the office didn't exist, we would need to invent it. There is a human social nature, and remote work goes against it. The office makes most of us feel important and useful. Managing others who only appear on a screen doesn't have the same ego jolt as having your employees there in person. And many people want to be managed and feel lost and disconnected without an actual in-person person to guide them. And that peer camaraderie doesn't feel as nice when your peers are not psychically with you. We have to all realize that it takes a very specific type of personality and set of life goals to thrive in a fully remote workplace.

Consultant32452 6y ago

One thing to keep in mind is that this is NOT what working remotely is really like. During normal times if I am missing socialization at work I can make up for it by going out more during the week. During normal times if I want I can spend a few hours working from the local cafe. But the cafes are closed. During normal times, kids are at school for most of the day so they don't disrupt you. But schools are closed. I'm not suggesting people will prefer what normal remote work life is like, but I don't think they're experiencing it right now.

s0rce 6y ago
That is a really important point, but I think that it still doesn't counter the argument about the career downsides of being remote when you don't work for a 100% remote organization. My company is pretty flexible but as a scientist/engineer I still have some duties where being in the lab is necessary. I'll probably increase my remote work for now but likely not move further away. I enjoy my bike commute in the East Bay.
- kuanbutts 6y ago
  I used to work in N Berkeley and live in Oakland by the lake. A lifestyle where you live and work in the E Bay is simply unparalleled.
- rohansingh 6y ago
  People weight "career downsides" differently. A lot of folks who are further in their careers are done trying to climb the ladder and would be happy working remotely.
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    Two other cynical additions. Not everyone is as concerned about "productivity". Also, there's a nonzero chance that someone whose productivity drops dramatically when working from home were only ever productive because they were leeching productivity out of others. Every team seems to have someone like this, and they can be safely gotten rid of.

whatok 6y ago

Surveys are fine and all but in some industries/companies, workers are not going to have much say in this. When it comes down to cost savings from increased productivity and reduced/eliminated office space, the decision is very easy for some. Not to say it's the right decision but it's a decision some are going to make with some limited data at hand.

tibiahurried 6y ago

> people who are fully remote are going to fall behind in promotions, Unfortunately, I have to agree with that. There is also the case that if you have to work from the office. Make sure your boss is not remote. I had that experience, and it sucked.

dontbenebby 6y ago

>There is just too much detrimental effect one one's career from not being seen at the office. For a company that's not fully remote (i.e. gitlab), people who are fully remote are going to fall behind in promotions, etc. I thought the model in SV/SF is often you need to change jobs to get substantial pay bumps/title increases.

codemac 6y ago
I don't think I've seen anyone getting great referrals to pay bumps through changing jobs without building in-person relationships

ngngngng 6y ago

I asked this casually with /polly in slack the other day and was surprised that our engineering department was split 50/50. 50% thinking we should go fully remote and 50% being very adamant that they needed an office to work in the majority of the time.

otoburb 6y ago
One factor that might bias these results are the type of setup that one has in the office compared to the home, primarily available space (i.e. spare bedrom) and office equipment (i.e. ergonomic chairs home/office & large/multiple computer monitors).
dv_dt 6y ago
That actually isn't bad is it? Cut back 50% on office space for savings (or leave some extra for growth), and have both groups accommodated.
- otoburb 6y ago
  The follow-on repercussion is that the pendulum swings even further to open-seating hot desk arrangements.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    While I think that's true, I work for a company that even normally has a lot of remote and mostly WFH employees. In general, people who come in more then X% of the time can still get an assigned spot. But--at least if space is tight--you'll need to hot desk if you just come in a day or two per week or less.

_jal 6y ago

> young, no kids, etc There is your major reason for that survey result. Companies with median-older workforces will see more enthusiasm for remote work.

rietta 6y ago
In my 30s, married, with kids, and a dog. Will NEVER willingly commute into an office. I'm significantly more productive and have build a life style around getting my work done, quick lunch break, walking the dog is get up from my desk at healthy intervals. When paired with a results only work environment, allows me to handle errands during non peak hours and then finish up any remaining work in the evening hours after things calm down and there are fewer distractions. 1. Morning: Meetings 2. Afternoon: Actual work 3. Family/dinner 4. Evenings after a break: Catch up with any email/work slack 5. Time with wife/family 6. Sleep and repeat. I LOVE not having to factor commute time in with all this. So productive.
- jschwartzi 6y ago
  God yes. That extra hour or two a day is worth any pay cut I might theoretically take. And I'm content maybe being a lead or a senior engineer for a while. I don't care that much about promotions. I actually got a huge raise changing jobs from a fully in-office one to a fully remote one though.
- cols 6y ago
  Super agree with this. I have a wife, twin 7 y/o boys, and an infant. I would so much rather not have to deal with the commute and office BS on a regular basis. The time that I previously spent on commuting can now be redirected towards spending time with my family, straightening the house, doing yard work, getting groceries, working on personal projects, reading, exercising, etc. Even with normally short commute, I find myself saving 1-1.5 hrs daily. It doesn't sound like a lot, but when your margin for time is already SO tight, it can make a big difference.
capableweb 6y ago
I read it the other way. Only people who are young with no distractions at home, favor working at home. People who usually have family members at home, get too distracted compared to a office environment, to prefer working at home.

Turing_Machine 6y ago

> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc). I just don't think that this will change much. I'm not sure that follows. It seems to me that people with spouses and especially children would be more interested in working from home, not less.

pwinnski 6y ago
While working from home, kids can often be a major distraction. Not insurmountable, but especially given that most people have been forced into some variety of home-schooling at the same time they were pushed into working from home, I could understand many people with kids choosing to go to an office.
- chongli 6y ago
  People with kids often have different priorities. Having a slam dunk, distraction free, high productivity work day tends to be lower on the priority list. Spending time with your partner, taking care of the kids, cooking and eating dinner with the family; these all tend to be higher on the priority list. There are exceptions. Some people don’t respond well to the stresses of family life and want to escape to the office. Hopefully these people decide not to have children in the first place.
  - Turing_Machine 6y ago
    Yes. I'm thinking of the old saying about no one ever arriving at his deathbed wishing he'd spent less time with his kids.
    - Turing_Machine 6y ago
      Wow. Someone is feeling guilty, I reckon.
  - neutronicus 6y ago
    Some partners and some children are bad with boundaries.

geddy 6y ago

It's a damn shame, really, the slavish devotion to one's car and spending hours a day sitting in traffic apparently is apparently preferred over actually getting time back in your everyday life. It's like people have adapted to having no life outside of work, and now they're just so bored they'd rather lose that time than just find a new hobby or learn something. I don't think I've ever thought about anything more depressing than a group of people who want less free time in their day. I wonder how their opinions will change once they're immediately thrust back into an office environment 5 days a week, have less time back in their schedule per day, and start paying for gas and auto repairs again. The grass always seems greener, doesn't it. Editing this because good lord if there were private messages here I'm sure I'd have death threats by now: I don't care if you like the office, or how cool your city is and how great your commute is - go to the damn office if you like the office! My point is that when people opt for FORCED office presence, rather than a FLEXIBLE work from home policy (AGAIN, FLEXIBLE MEANS YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT), it makes more sense than locking everyone into a situation that may or may not involve sitting in a car every day, like 90% of Americans still do every day. (source: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2013/10/28/ninety-percent-of-americans-drive-to-work/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2013/10/28/nine...)

wayoutthere 6y ago
For me it has reinforced my opposition to remote work. I feel like without a dedicated space for work, it is hard for me to mentally unplug from work. I'm already burned out from 2 months of this. I feel like I never know what day it is. Pre-pandemic, I set my life up so that I was walking distance to everything I needed. My apartment is super small, but that's fine when things are open. I'm actually considering buying a car and moving out to the suburbs because I see my inner-city neighborhood rapidly descending into squalor. I think most city-dwellers with financial means are at least considering the same.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  Squalor because of the virus?

iab 6y ago

I have to agree. It brings to mind the Friends episode with Rachel being excluded for not-smoking; same dynamic will come to play with the in-office vs. remote.

papito 6y ago

The optics of being in the office will never change. Humans are very shallow and highly visual. I see - therefore you are. That said, there is a middle ground. You have to be in the office twice a week in order to achieve the full benefit of face-to-face interaction. I, for one, would welcome having to get out of the house twice a week and go talk to actual humans, go to lunch, or to a bar.

chakerb 6y ago

The fact that people were forced to stay at home may influence their view. If people willingly choose to try working from home, I would guess that the result would be much different. Not only that but the fact the you are stuck at home all day long would make you eventually leaning towards getting out.

allsystemsgo 6y ago

Maybe employees should just decide for themselves how they work best.

driverdan 6y ago

I've worked remote for a long time and agree with what you said. The company culture really needs to be focused on remote work for it to succeed. Remote first is far better than remote allowed.

dcolkitt 6y ago

I see it from the opposite side. This won't be employee-pulled, but company-pushed. Many organizations are going to be significantly cash-strapped at the end of this recession. One of the juiciest targets will be cutting the high fixed cost of office leases. Especially in expensive areas like Silicon Valley. If a company can push the average employee to work from home 3 days a week, they can convert to floating desks and cut their real estate costs by 50% or more.

mikeryan 6y ago
I run a small tech company in the Bay Area, and while rents are not cheap, they end up being a very small percentage of costs - particularly compared to salaries. I think you'll find some companies that your suggestion as workable but I don't see a lot of companies embracing it wholesale from a financial perspective. Also most leases are fairly locked it's not an easy way to address short-term cash flow issues, especially compared to reducing headcount.
chris11 6y ago
Floating desks sounds really unenjoyable. Plus I'd have health concerns about that before a vaccine is developed.

imaadrashied 6y ago

I might be simplifying too much, but I would be surprised if more remote work didn't catch on. A decentralized workforce is easier to control in some aspects that are incredibly attractive to corporate leaders. Fewer spontaneous and f2f interactions between people makes it easier to: 1) Ensure folks are focusing primarily on work instead of anything else associated with being a part of a company 2) All hierarchical decisions (promoting / not promoting) can be done without much personal interaction so turns employees more into school children where grades on certain things determine moving up or not 3) Easier to fire folks if you don’t get as close to them and if they’re not right there in front of you Not advantageous for small/mid-size companies with strong cultures. Advantageous for small/mid-size co’s with weak cultures. Large companies obviously benefit, surprised more don’t go remote.

matchagaucho 6y ago

Employees that optimize for promotions and comp are far more likely to churn anyway, as 20% increases are available every 18 months by job hopping. Loyalty of remote workers is probably a metric more orgs should be considering.

dreen 6y ago

We had a similar survey. 1000+ people commercial FM radio company (so more media than tech). About 20% want to go back to the office.

talmr 6y ago

Remote whiteboarding is challenging. In the office, we can just make a breakout session and grab a whiteboard and jam something out. We're all present, nobody randomly sounds like a cyborg about to wreck the city, and we can actually get something done rather than have another follow up after someone puts all this into "notes".

stevenwliao 6y ago
Google Jamboard with company issued iPads solves the whiteboarding.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

7thaccount 6y ago

My company has ~600 employees with good diversity in age. Our recent survey showed strong support for work from home. The executives have always been against it, but admitted they could no longer say that it wouldn't work. One executive also said he's grown to like it. They've even started talking about allowing work from home on Fridays once we go back. A lot of folks commute from nearby suburbs, so this would be a game changer for many.

qiguai 6y ago

Was it anonymous? Who would want to notify their employer their intent to go remote? Especially a survey that could be to see whos against it.

whateveracct 6y ago

Young single people are also likely to couple their job & coworkers with their identity & society. So I could see them wishing they could be in the office.

pathseeker 6y ago

>suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc) Well that's your problem. Young people are the ones who like going into offices. People with families and kids are the ones who like remote (they have something to stay home for).

watwut 6y ago

I think it is other way round. Young people don't mind traveling to office or at least mind less. They also seek socialization more - whether on the clock or off the clock. When you have to take kids to school and from school, you feel time wasted by going to office more. Also, also those chit chats and socialization in the office and after work feel more like waste of time when you are older. When I was younger, it was cool, because when I stayed late to compensate no one except me was affected and I got to look like hard worker anyway. Now, it feels much more like loss.

doublesCs 6y ago

What I would really want is work full time from the office, but not be judged if once in a while ad-hoc I wish to work from home.

amf12 6y ago

> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc). This is the group of people that largely prefers working from the office, IMO.

ummonk 6y ago

> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc) That seems to be the group of people best suited for working from the office, since they can relocate to live close to work and don't have families to spend time with.

geodel 6y ago

> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc). Seems other way round to me. They are exactly the people who would like to come office, chill in cafe, play foosball, and video games etc and their residence may be small and/ or shared with room mates. People who are older would prefer home so they can take care of family also along with work.

formercoder 6y ago

Agreed. There is a ton of “things will never be the same” sentiment. That just cannot be true.

chris11 6y ago

I have the same concerns. Personally I liked coming into my office. My workspace was decent, I liked being able to have lunch with my coworkers, and the free food was good. Plus my commute was basically non-existent. I also have long term concerns about my career. Most of employees were working in the office, and the few employees who were remote, regularly came in for a few days. I was happy with my rent, and I wouldn't want to move that far away. So I wouldn't see much savings in time or money from moving.

loco5niner 6y ago
> My workspace was decent, I liked being able to have lunch with my coworkers, and the free food was good. Plus my commute was basically non-existent. If i could say all that, of course! I'd like the office too. I can't

dmode 6y ago

I had mentioned this in another post. I am personally sick and tired out working from home for over 2 months and cannot wait to get back to office. This is probably driven a lot by my role (PM) where you are basically in an endless stream of zoom meetings from 9-5. I get a nasty headache at the end of the day. I also yearn for social connections, quick chats, meeting in an outdoor space etc.

samatman 6y ago

In these times of severe economic anxiety, I'm shocked that 30% of your org were willing to put their necks out like that. Perhaps you have an excellent company culture. I'm part of an all-remote company, but at prior engagements, I might have cynically read such a survey as a roundabout loyalty pledge.

dgudkov 6y ago

I'm afraid what workers want is not really important. The pandemics became a huge proof-of-concept for many C-levels execs. The vast majority of them were absolutely sure that if the employees start working from home their companies would fall apart immediately. To their big surprise, that actually didn't happen when quarantine and WFH was enforced by governments. Now they can't stop thinking of WFH as of a huge cost-cutting opportunity. Nobody asked employees if they wanted open offices or not, it was simply enforced on them. The same will happen with WFH - it will be simply enforced, sometimes with a plausible, good-sounding justification.

fred_is_fred 6y ago

In reality - being older with kids is better for working from home than younger with no kids - assuming you have a proper workspace. I really enjoy being able to step out and have lunch with my family, to be home while my wife runs errands, etc. I also live with 5 other people and never really feel alone like a younger single person might. Also as I get older I end up on more conference calls (in management) and its a pain to take them in an open office like everyone has.

maddax 6y ago

From the other responses, it looks like the biggest factor is commute. I am very fortunate to have my workplace 5 mins from home by walk, and I don't see anyone in my situation preferring work-from-home.