24 ms·

Neiman Marcus files for bankruptcy

201 points by hhs 7y ago

bruceb 7y ago
I think even without Covid, its harder to tell what is luxury in apparel. There have been a couple articles on this. There used to be a clear difference between the look of clothes at different retailers but not as much anymore. Walk through Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Macy's, H&M, and they start to blend together. Doesnt mean no difference but maybe not enough to always charge a premium.
- karatestomp 7y ago
  They all seem to have decided on a "market expansion at the expense of brand dilution" strategy. Ditto most of the formerly-consistently-good clothing brands. I'm not really sure which stores/brands replace the ones that have done this, these days. [EDIT] I suspect part of this is because the cost of actually-good clothes hasn't dropped like shitty-clothes costs have, because (this is further speculation on my part) a good bit of the "savings" from internationalization, by the time it reaches consumers, is actually making many categories of goods worse and eliminating mid-tier stuff (formerly bottom-tier) outright so the gulf between lower-end luxury (paying for quality, not name) and plain ol' low-end has grown, putting pressure on luxury brands to cut prices... but they can't with their current products, because internationalization hasn't actually dropped the price of producing decent goods by very much, so instead they cut quality.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    Yeah. It's not just department stores--which I have less direct experience with. A lot of the old line "mail order" outfits like LL Bean, J Crew, Lands' End, etc. (as well as many of the at least semi-premium outdoor clothing/gear/etc. brands) are much more of a both quality and customer service crapshoot than they once were. At the risk of painting with an overly broad brush, when everything is made in the same, mostly Far East, factories and has to compete with essentially disposable clothing at some level, it all starts to look more or less the same.
    - greedo 7y ago
      I used to be an Eddie Bauer guy. Shirts, shoes, shorts, jeans, coats, you name it. Spent a good chunk of change at their mall store where you could try stuff on. Overtime, the fabrics got thinner on shirts and jeans. They stopped stocking my size in store. Stuff started wearing out quicker. I tried to order online, but the order fulfillment was hit and miss. Too bad for them...
      - selimthegrim 7y ago
        Ha did you have the Ford Explorer?
        arbitrary_name 7y ago
        I bought an old Eddie Bauer Explorer model - had no idea who the guy was, but I ran the car for a while and then sold it to someone who paid me almost 30% above the asking price, because he really wanted the Eddie Bauer model. Thanks, Eddie!
        greedo 7y ago
        Almost. My sister had one that I missed out on when she got a new car.
      - vl 7y ago
        I still mostly buy clothes at Eddie Bauer online - while there is a hit and miss occasionally, they have mostly consistent quality and sizing, and it’s easy to pass on inferior items by reading reviews. Easy return policy also makes it risk-free. They also have constant sales.
      - chihuahua 7y ago
        I still buy Eddie Bauer stuff online occasionally because they still have tall sizes. "Medium Tall" T-shirts are great when you're 6'5" and 175lbs.
    - kevstev 7y ago
      I ordered stuff from Banana Republic Factory about a year ago. I was on their email list, saw something I liked in the ad, clicked on it, bought it. It was on sale, a shirt for like $30. I had good experiences with stuff I bought from them in an actual store years prior. The shirt came, and it was synthetic blend of polyester IIRC- the shirt felt like wearing a garbage bag, but much worse was that the fabric was so thin that you could see through it. I had a white shirt with a light logo on it of a tech company, and you could clearly read the logo through the shirt- and even with a plain white tee on you could clearly see where the sleeve ended on the undershirt- this was something I would have expected to see in the bargain bin of a Walmart for less than $10, not for $30 (which was the sale price) from a reputable brand. What's worse- is they wouldn't even take it back without a fee of $6- I don't live near a Factory store, and a regular Banana Republic wouldn't take it back. I told the CS rep that they should be embarrassed for even selling something of such low quality, and to not take it back is just appalling. She didn't care, and that's the last I have ever ordered from BR online.
  - qppo 7y ago
    Well and really inefficient land usage.
  - fl0wenol 7y ago
    With gig work and the internet, you can find a tailor or contact someone on Etsy for less than a boutique experience. Off the rack is globally commoditized now, so you're paying for a trendy location, labels, personal shoppers, or design IP. If those things don't matter to you...
  - cik 7y ago
    You'd be surprised. The cost of rubbish clothing has fallen, but then the cost of very reasonable mid-quality has dramatically fallen. I used to buy Levis, then Gap for mid range. Now, I get the same quality (and literally the same factory) jeans from Joe Fresh, for 1/4th to 1/5th of the price. Suit shirts are the same. An online tailor I've been using for a decade sells shirts at half the price of Banana Republic (comparing to Canada), but mine are bespoke, perfectly fitted, and I can make choices from a website. To wit, I've stopped buying shirts in stores and now just use their service... since 2008. To make matters worse for retailers, his quality has improved at the price point. Retail is hard.
    - kevstev 7y ago
      What online tailor do you use? I have a local guy who charges fairly reasonable prices but it would be interesting to compare...
    - ghaff 7y ago
      As someone who knows very little about the fashion business--though I have had tailored clothing made--I'm a little surprised that more of a market for bespoke online ordering hasn't developed. Sure, you'll "never" get to the level of an in-person tailor with multiple fittings. But one would think that there would be a fair number of people willing to pay something of a premium for at least roughly customized clothing. I know that exists for shirts but, as I recall from when I used to buy more business casual, it was still a very big premium over buying stuff that fit me reasonably from Lands' End.
      - cik 7y ago
        Online tailors have solved that by partnering/paying for local alterations. They come into town X times per year (4-5?) for those who want the ongoing bespoke relationship. Then, when your clothes arrive, you can take them to a tailor to have them altered if necessary - paid for by the tailor, and your details updated, paid for by the tailor.
    - listenallyall 7y ago
      Every men's shirt on JoeFresh.com is either $24 or $29. What Gap do you shop at where prices are 4 or 5x higher? I'd use jeans for a comparison but they aren't on the web site.
  - N1H1L 7y ago
    Every shopping mall, even ones in the middle of nowhere in Bumfucktown has a Macy's and a Victoria's secret. None of those two companies look like they are on a sustainable trajectory.
  - MandieD 7y ago
    Comparing the ladies' t-shirts you can get at Gap or even their more-expensive sibling Banana Republic with ones I bought in the late 90s is amazing. I’m still wearing two old ones around the house, occasionally having to restitch a section of the bottom hems, but I’ve not been able to find any ribbed cotton fabric women's tops that come close to the thickness and durability in the past 10-15 years. The old Gap shirt I’m wearing right now was made in the Philippines around 1996 - I wore it in my school picture that year! I even have an Old Navy t-shirt from around 2000 that is far sturdier than any current men’s t-shirts (which are still usually sturdier fabric than women’s), and by that point, they were already the discount sibling to Gap.
- jrumbut 7y ago
  I had never put my finger on this before but you're right. Also it's a total crap shoot on manufacturing quality.
  - Eric_WVGG 7y ago
    > Walk through Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Macy's, H&M, and they start to blend together. But are any of these luxury brands? Nordstrom might be upper-tier retail but it’s hardly luxury.
    - whymauri 7y ago
      I read this as 'luxury' brands (Neiman Marcus) becoming asymptotically indistinguishable from low- or mid-tier brands.
    - asdff 7y ago
      Could you tell the difference at a glance from something from Neiman Marcus and a clone of that shirt sold by target? I can't.
      - Eric_WVGG 7y ago
        Absolutely not, that's why I'm questioning why any of these are being described here as "luxury brands." A t-shirt from a luxury brand could cost several hundred dollars, none of these stores carry anything like that. This is all shopping mall grade.
        room500 7y ago
        The grass is always greener... Someone out there is wearing haute couture hand-sewn by artisans. Your hundred dollar shirt is laughable to that tier. But for the majority of the world, I think Nordstrom would largely count as "luxury"
      - chillacy 7y ago
        Sometimes I can tell. Usually you get better detailing with the expensive stuff, in the same way that you get nicer interiors on a Lexus than a Toyota. Granted the difference in quality is definitely not worth the difference in cost (like many luxury goods you'll end up paying 5x in price for what feels like a 1.2x improvement in quality). I recently replaced 20 or so $10 target shirts with a handful of $60 shirts from Nordstrom (NM sells them too) and they're much more comfortable, hold up better in the wash too.
- dominotw 7y ago
  >Doesnt mean no difference but maybe not enough to always charge a premium. Thats why people call Neiman Marcus 'needless markup' :D
- _bxg1 7y ago
  There's also been a huge trend reversal on "conspicuous consumption". Even the wealthy now do their wealth-signaling through minimalism, instead of flash and excess. Self-proclaimed "luxury brands" have a dwindling market.
  - chadash 7y ago
    Do the numbers reflect this? I'm just looking at the stock prices of a few luxury companies like LVMH and and Kering and it seems they were are at all time highs prior to COVID.
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      Just my anecdotal impression; it's possible I'm biased by the extents of my bubble
      - ghaff 7y ago
        You probably are. Go to Vegas and there are whole shopping malls where, to indulge in just a degree of hyperbole, I'd have to look hard to find something I could afford. Or at least would even consider affording.
        jaywalk 7y ago
        And those malls are usually pretty empty, from my experience.
        _bxg1 7y ago
        In fairness, conspicuous consumption is one of the primary draws of Vegas. Probably not a very representative example.
        blaser-waffle 7y ago
        And it's also a one-off, in a national and international sense. It's like judging consumption levels in the Muslim world by Dubai.
- notyourday 7y ago
  > There used to be a clear difference between the look of clothes at different retailers but not as much anymore. That's because nearly all the brands sold at places like NM have outsourced manufacturing to the same 3rd rate factories in Asia and Latin America and are riding on a name and those names these days command less premium than Supreme.
sp332 7y ago
First guess: private equity? Neiman Marcus, laden with debt after a private equity takeover, Yup.
- johntiger1 7y ago
  Wow, why don't people wise up to this PE trick? Seems like creditors would learn their lesson after so many examples...
  - razster 7y ago
    Because the creditors make money off it as well.
    - whatok 7y ago
      Can you explain how the creditors of 4bn in Neiman Marcus debt are making money off this?
      - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
        Because they won’t default now.
        whatok 7y ago
        Ok, a potential positive sum is definitely better than zero but once again, how exactly are creditors making money off this? The grandparent's post is implying that somehow no one is losing money in this situation. I'd like to hear how it works.
      - beamatronic 7y ago
        They probably sold the debt to another party
        whatok 7y ago
        So you're saying that the original creditors made money off this and new creditors through secondary market transactions are left holding the bag? That's partially true but a massive portion of this debt is in pension funds or passive investments that track index funds. They track benchmark indices so they're buying these bonds at issue or shortly after. With no active management involved, they are also losing money when a company files.
_wldu 7y ago
I hope individuals and businesses start saving again. When I was a kid, everyone saved money. We spent it too, but we all saved for rainy days. Maybe that idea will make a come back now. Be prepared. You never know what may happen.
- karatestomp 7y ago
  I agree, but if they do we're in for a looooong recovery. If we're not already.
  - _wldu 7y ago
    Yes. We should not go over board. Keep spending and supporting local businesses, but save some too. Say 15% of your earnings. Put it in the bank. I remember when my wife tried to get a credit card right after we got married. She could not get one. Back then, there was only Visa and Mastercard. Then Discover card came out and she was able to get one with a very low limit. She used that to build her credit over the years. Today, the grand kids get card offers in the mail several times a month. We need to be somewhere in the middle and not at either extreme.
- komali2 7y ago
  Were you a kid during the last period of wages rising lock-step with value? I.e., before the 1970s?
- icarus_camp 7y ago
  There is no incentive (for businesses) with bailouts though. You can't buy out your competitor during a downturn because the government bailout to your competitor is already in the mail. We don't see the airlines that saved for a rainy day going out and buying out the ones that have no cash reserve, because the latter were bailed out. So then the industry as a whole decides not to save because they know the bailout will be there. We need some kind of law where if you take a bailout you give the Fed a controlling interest, you have something like 60 or 90 days to buy that interest back by repaying the bailout. After that other entities have the right to purchase that controlling interest and then they now own you.
- 7y ago
Merrill 7y ago
“It’s Collapsing Violently”: Coronavirus Is Creating a Fast Fashion Nightmare https://www.gq.com/story/coronavirus-fast-fashion-dana-thomas https://www.gq.com/story/coronavirus-fast-fashion-dana-thoma...
- devchix 7y ago
  The idea of "fast fashion" is noxious! All those faddish things worn for a season then to take up space in landfills. I don't think I've found affordable clothes made to last anymore (a good quality wool sweater, maybe?) I can't remember when was the last time I was at the mall, or what was the last thing I really really like to buy to wear.
  - Reedx 7y ago
    Indeed, fast fashion is one of the most wasteful and polluting industries. It's weird how it gets a pass on that. As for clothing and shoes that last, Patagonia is pretty good.
  - alephnan 7y ago
    I don't think quality clothing has ever been cheap. Fabrics like wool and silk are still not cheap and definitely can't be found at a fast fashion store. Another key difference between fast fashion and expensive clothing is simplification of pattern-making.
- alephnan 7y ago
  Neiman Marcus is not fast fashion
- hinkley 7y ago
  Fast Fashion is the nightmare. If we are waking up, all the better.
nerfhammer 7y ago
Lord & Taylor next
- hoofhearted 7y ago
  Prof G had mentioned that Nordstroms could be in a position to be acquired by Amazon back when he made the Wholefoods acquisition prediction. I wonder how their books are fairing these days
b1gtuna 7y ago
I'm not glad these stores are doing bad, but I just never understood how a pair of sneakers can cost $700 - $900 when I can buy a decent laptop with that kind of money.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hhs 7y ago
  Those sneakers are likely a Veblen good.
  - b1gtuna 7y ago
    Right, but I think EVERY sneaker is a Veblen good. A pair of $20 sneakers want to look like a $100 one and $100 sneakers want to look like $300 ones..
- karatestomp 7y ago
  Conspicuous consumption. The price is the point. It’s a signaling thing. In the case of something like sneakers with a big brand logo on them, it’s likely someone “low” trying to signal to their peers that they’ve made it (whether they have or not). See: Fussell’s Class, or The Official Preppy Handbook for signaling rules specific to the upper-middle and upper classes (very expensive sneakers with swooshes: big no. Somewhat expensive tennis shoes with wear patterns from serving: yes)
  - popup21 7y ago
    > The Official Preppy Handbook LOL, classic WASP literature. I haven't thought of this book since the mid-80s! It's a hilarious read.
    - karatestomp 7y ago
      Some of it (and Class) is just plain good advice. Prefer nice clothes/things, but use the hell out of them and don’t be afraid to repair them. Don’t comment on how nice something someone bought is (this middle-class habit seems really weird after having it pointed out). Avoid “collectibles” and for god’s sake don’t think of them as an investment. That sort of thing.
every 7y ago
Definitely a Brave New World. I guess we won't be getting our His and Hers gold plated, nuclear powered mini-subs this Christmas after all...
- every 7y ago
  Apparently some here are unfamiliar with this holiday tradition: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/89283/stories-behind-12-outrageous-neiman-marcus-holiday-gifts https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/89283/stories-behind-12-...
  - riffic 7y ago
    This one may be more in line with the Hacker News crowd: https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/minicomputers/11/362 https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/minicomputers/11/...
woofyman 7y ago
Their nickname: needless markup
1-6 7y ago
The definition of luxury has changed. It's now more about value, utility, and stability. Luxury means owning property in a high-end location, a MacBook Pro, fast optical networks, clean drinking water, and a reliable car.
- blueline 7y ago
  that's... a sweeping statement without much evidence beyond your personal experience. do you really think that people buying Saint Laurent jeans last year are now worried about "fast optical networks, clean drinking water, and a reliable car"?
- fakedang 7y ago
  MacBook Pros are luxury goods now? What someone, such as myself, doesn't really like them, and instead prefers Thinkpads, like most of my peers?
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
    What you like has little to do with luxury, and in many cases is actually anti-parallel to luxury. I like my comfortable cotton tank top and my mom's mac and cheese but neither of them are luxury goods. In fact since a lot of luxury is actually about signaling, if it's too comfortable / has high utility, it might actually lose status.
  - zone411 7y ago
    There are few more expensive laptops so I'd say so. The 16-inch 2019 MacBook Pro starts at $2400 and you only get a 512 GB SSD for this price. Apple itself is more of a premium brand.
andyv 7y ago
One of Frederick Wiseman's wonderful documentaries is "The Store", which is about Neiman Marcus sometime in the 80's. Currently streaming on Kanopy. One sequence showed the CEO giving a pep talk to his buyers, whose relationship with their suppliers was always strained at best. He told a joke about a buyer who called his supplier that went something like: Buyer: "Hello, is Fred Jones there?" Receptionist: "I'm sorry, Mr. Jones passed away last month" Buyer: "Oh, sorry to hear that, goodbye." Ten minutes later: Buyer: "Hello, is Fred Jones there?" Receptionist: "I told you, he died last month" Buyer: "Oh, oh, yes. Goodbye." Ten minutes later: Buyer: "Hello, is Fred Jones there?" Receptionist: "He's dead, why do you keep calling here?" Buyer: "I just like hearing you say it"
- dpeck 7y ago
  That is so spot on. I've occasionally played the role of solutions engineer/sales engineer/whatever as part of two different companies selling consumer electronics products to big box stores and that is 100% right. The supplier/buyer relationships are very "frenemy" even in the best of times.
  - Tronno 7y ago
    > The supplier/buyer relationships are very "frenemy" even in the best of times. Why?
- lancesells 7y ago
  Off topic but I wish I could pay for Kanopy as an individual. It was so great when my library supported it.
alephnan 7y ago
Interesting how the Barney's bankruptcy did not receive any commentary from the HackerNews. As a software engineer with a degree in fashion design as well, I believe both luxury retail stores are equally notorious
- bdcravens 7y ago
  Probably due to size?
  - alephnan 7y ago
    As in market cap? It's 3x more, but Barney's is more legendary in fashion circles. Could also because there is more brand dilution at Neiman Marcus
    - whatok 7y ago
      Neiman Marcus has no public market cap; it's a private company. You're probably referring to their debt.
    - bdcravens 7y ago
      I was referring to the number of stores, which speaks to whether it's a "common" brand (outside of fashion circles)
worik 7y ago
Inverse pass the parcel: Those who pass it on get the prize, the child that ends up holding it looses... everything
lkrubner 7y ago
Everyone talks about the "Amazon effect" but the changing distribution of income is also worth considering: "Retail is suffering because the middle classes have lost $1,355 trillion in income since 1970" http://www.smashcompany.com/business/retail-is-suffering-because-the-middle-classes-have-lost-1-355-trillion-in-income-since-1970?source=Snapzu http://www.smashcompany.com/business/retail-is-suffering-bec...
- twblalock 7y ago
  I don't buy that explanation. A lot of traditional mall and department store retail is suffering, but other kinds of retail is doing great selling to middle-class Americans. Examples include Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, Target, and Amazon. They are winning because they offer more convenience to customers as a result of their size, selection, and online presence. Besides, this article is about a luxury retailer, not the kind of place middle-class Americans go to.
  - nutshell89 7y ago
    Neiman Marcus suffers from two additional factors imo - a lot of their retail is in pricy urban real estate markets (Beverly Hills, Palo Alto, Stockton Street, Michigan Ave, Hudson Yards, Tysons, Houston's Galleria, etc.) where rents have escalated in recent years in comparison to cheap Amazon / Walmart style giant warehouses outside of town. Additionally, NM has been owned by PE for years putting financial strain on the company.
    - stainforth 7y ago
      Why don't those landlords just lower their rents to meet demand then?
      - samatman 7y ago
        If you went to any of those places before the pandemic, you wouldn't have seen any empty storefronts. Just because it squeezed Neiman Marcus, doesn't mean other stores could afford it. Of course, everything has changed now. Will landlords have to lower their rents in response? Maybe.
rb808 7y ago
People dress very cheaply now. I'm always amazed from historic photos, it seems the further back you go the more money they spent on appearance. These days it just looks like no one cares. I'm surprised upmarket stores lasted this long.
- akdas 7y ago
  That's partially because photos used to be rarer. So either the subjects were richer to have access to photos, or the subjects dressed their best when getting their photographs taken.
- chillacy 7y ago
  Also depends where you live. Seattle is very different than NYC or Paris.
- scollet 7y ago
  Price doesn't reflect quality. Ever pull a good thrift store haul?
  - lilsoso 7y ago
    There's a phrase, 'cut and cloth'. Better materials, the basic ingredients, generally increases the price (cloth from quality fabric mills, finer wools, nice dyes, shell buttons, leather, etc...). And the cut matters, to pay for a tailored shirt in England or Italy will cost you -- that is, the labor, design, and construction. Sure, a high price tag does not necessarily imply quality -- but let's not be fools about the matter.
Stratoscope 7y ago
One of my few regrets in life is that I never bought the family a Neiman Marcus Kitchen Computer. https://www.google.com/search?q=neiman+marcus+kitchen+computer https://www.google.com/search?q=neiman+marcus+kitchen+comput...
musicale 7y ago
> Neiman Marcus, laden with debt after a private equity takeover... How unsurprising.
gfxgirl 7y ago
I'd been to the Neiman Marcus in SF maybe.... once a year when in lived in SF. And a few times in Newport Beach over the last 20 years. I've never seen more than a few people per floor. It's not surprising to me they are going under. I don't know who their market was. It was all very high end. But, seeing almost no one in those giant stores always seemed like the end was near.
paypalcust83 7y ago
I can almost hear it: Where oh where will I buy a fluorescent fuchsia sports coat for $8000 now? Amazon and similar are no good for luxury goods because of the lack of service that luxury shoppers expect. Perhaps they need to shift to an online-first model with video-conferenced personal shoppers who can browse store-like inventory while serving qualified shoppers who can concurrently navigate their wardrobe? Personally, I like Neimy's, but not as a go-to retailer but as a once-every-twenty-years-buy-something-nice-and-crazy; their service is/was fantastic, they know their products/fashion, and their employees aren't/weren't like standard American retail salespeople. Ordinarily, I go to Salvation Army and Goodwill for outer clothing only, and eBay for new-but-discontinued b-stock or liquidated inventory of other clothing that I can no longer find.
CodeSheikh 7y ago
They just opened a huge new store at Hudson Yards in NYC. I’m sure lack of foreign rich tourists(mainly rich Chinese) during COVID months must have hurt them big time as well.

201 points by hhs 7y ago

I think even without Covid, its harder to tell what is luxury in apparel. There have been a couple articles on this. There used to be a clear difference between the look of clothes at different retailers but not as much anymore. Walk through Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Macy's, H&M, and they start to blend together. Doesnt mean no difference but maybe not enough to always charge a premium.

karatestomp 7y ago
They all seem to have decided on a "market expansion at the expense of brand dilution" strategy. Ditto most of the formerly-consistently-good clothing brands. I'm not really sure which stores/brands replace the ones that have done this, these days. [EDIT] I suspect part of this is because the cost of actually-good clothes hasn't dropped like shitty-clothes costs have, because (this is further speculation on my part) a good bit of the "savings" from internationalization, by the time it reaches consumers, is actually making many categories of goods worse and eliminating mid-tier stuff (formerly bottom-tier) outright so the gulf between lower-end luxury (paying for quality, not name) and plain ol' low-end has grown, putting pressure on luxury brands to cut prices... but they can't with their current products, because internationalization hasn't actually dropped the price of producing decent goods by very much, so instead they cut quality.
- ghaff 7y ago
  Yeah. It's not just department stores--which I have less direct experience with. A lot of the old line "mail order" outfits like LL Bean, J Crew, Lands' End, etc. (as well as many of the at least semi-premium outdoor clothing/gear/etc. brands) are much more of a both quality and customer service crapshoot than they once were. At the risk of painting with an overly broad brush, when everything is made in the same, mostly Far East, factories and has to compete with essentially disposable clothing at some level, it all starts to look more or less the same.
  - greedo 7y ago
    I used to be an Eddie Bauer guy. Shirts, shoes, shorts, jeans, coats, you name it. Spent a good chunk of change at their mall store where you could try stuff on. Overtime, the fabrics got thinner on shirts and jeans. They stopped stocking my size in store. Stuff started wearing out quicker. I tried to order online, but the order fulfillment was hit and miss. Too bad for them...
    - selimthegrim 7y ago
      Ha did you have the Ford Explorer?
      - arbitrary_name 7y ago
        I bought an old Eddie Bauer Explorer model - had no idea who the guy was, but I ran the car for a while and then sold it to someone who paid me almost 30% above the asking price, because he really wanted the Eddie Bauer model. Thanks, Eddie!
      - greedo 7y ago
        Almost. My sister had one that I missed out on when she got a new car.
    - vl 7y ago
      I still mostly buy clothes at Eddie Bauer online - while there is a hit and miss occasionally, they have mostly consistent quality and sizing, and it’s easy to pass on inferior items by reading reviews. Easy return policy also makes it risk-free. They also have constant sales.
    - chihuahua 7y ago
      I still buy Eddie Bauer stuff online occasionally because they still have tall sizes. "Medium Tall" T-shirts are great when you're 6'5" and 175lbs.
  - kevstev 7y ago
    I ordered stuff from Banana Republic Factory about a year ago. I was on their email list, saw something I liked in the ad, clicked on it, bought it. It was on sale, a shirt for like $30. I had good experiences with stuff I bought from them in an actual store years prior. The shirt came, and it was synthetic blend of polyester IIRC- the shirt felt like wearing a garbage bag, but much worse was that the fabric was so thin that you could see through it. I had a white shirt with a light logo on it of a tech company, and you could clearly read the logo through the shirt- and even with a plain white tee on you could clearly see where the sleeve ended on the undershirt- this was something I would have expected to see in the bargain bin of a Walmart for less than $10, not for $30 (which was the sale price) from a reputable brand. What's worse- is they wouldn't even take it back without a fee of $6- I don't live near a Factory store, and a regular Banana Republic wouldn't take it back. I told the CS rep that they should be embarrassed for even selling something of such low quality, and to not take it back is just appalling. She didn't care, and that's the last I have ever ordered from BR online.
- qppo 7y ago
  Well and really inefficient land usage.
- fl0wenol 7y ago
  With gig work and the internet, you can find a tailor or contact someone on Etsy for less than a boutique experience. Off the rack is globally commoditized now, so you're paying for a trendy location, labels, personal shoppers, or design IP. If those things don't matter to you...
- cik 7y ago
  You'd be surprised. The cost of rubbish clothing has fallen, but then the cost of very reasonable mid-quality has dramatically fallen. I used to buy Levis, then Gap for mid range. Now, I get the same quality (and literally the same factory) jeans from Joe Fresh, for 1/4th to 1/5th of the price. Suit shirts are the same. An online tailor I've been using for a decade sells shirts at half the price of Banana Republic (comparing to Canada), but mine are bespoke, perfectly fitted, and I can make choices from a website. To wit, I've stopped buying shirts in stores and now just use their service... since 2008. To make matters worse for retailers, his quality has improved at the price point. Retail is hard.
  - kevstev 7y ago
    What online tailor do you use? I have a local guy who charges fairly reasonable prices but it would be interesting to compare...
  - ghaff 7y ago
    As someone who knows very little about the fashion business--though I have had tailored clothing made--I'm a little surprised that more of a market for bespoke online ordering hasn't developed. Sure, you'll "never" get to the level of an in-person tailor with multiple fittings. But one would think that there would be a fair number of people willing to pay something of a premium for at least roughly customized clothing. I know that exists for shirts but, as I recall from when I used to buy more business casual, it was still a very big premium over buying stuff that fit me reasonably from Lands' End.
    - cik 7y ago
      Online tailors have solved that by partnering/paying for local alterations. They come into town X times per year (4-5?) for those who want the ongoing bespoke relationship. Then, when your clothes arrive, you can take them to a tailor to have them altered if necessary - paid for by the tailor, and your details updated, paid for by the tailor.
  - listenallyall 7y ago
    Every men's shirt on JoeFresh.com is either $24 or $29. What Gap do you shop at where prices are 4 or 5x higher? I'd use jeans for a comparison but they aren't on the web site.
- N1H1L 7y ago
  Every shopping mall, even ones in the middle of nowhere in Bumfucktown has a Macy's and a Victoria's secret. None of those two companies look like they are on a sustainable trajectory.
- MandieD 7y ago
  Comparing the ladies' t-shirts you can get at Gap or even their more-expensive sibling Banana Republic with ones I bought in the late 90s is amazing. I’m still wearing two old ones around the house, occasionally having to restitch a section of the bottom hems, but I’ve not been able to find any ribbed cotton fabric women's tops that come close to the thickness and durability in the past 10-15 years. The old Gap shirt I’m wearing right now was made in the Philippines around 1996 - I wore it in my school picture that year! I even have an Old Navy t-shirt from around 2000 that is far sturdier than any current men’s t-shirts (which are still usually sturdier fabric than women’s), and by that point, they were already the discount sibling to Gap.
jrumbut 7y ago
I had never put my finger on this before but you're right. Also it's a total crap shoot on manufacturing quality.
- Eric_WVGG 7y ago
  > Walk through Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Macy's, H&M, and they start to blend together. But are any of these luxury brands? Nordstrom might be upper-tier retail but it’s hardly luxury.
  - whymauri 7y ago
    I read this as 'luxury' brands (Neiman Marcus) becoming asymptotically indistinguishable from low- or mid-tier brands.
  - asdff 7y ago
    Could you tell the difference at a glance from something from Neiman Marcus and a clone of that shirt sold by target? I can't.
    - Eric_WVGG 7y ago
      Absolutely not, that's why I'm questioning why any of these are being described here as "luxury brands." A t-shirt from a luxury brand could cost several hundred dollars, none of these stores carry anything like that. This is all shopping mall grade.
      - room500 7y ago
        The grass is always greener... Someone out there is wearing haute couture hand-sewn by artisans. Your hundred dollar shirt is laughable to that tier. But for the majority of the world, I think Nordstrom would largely count as "luxury"
    - chillacy 7y ago
      Sometimes I can tell. Usually you get better detailing with the expensive stuff, in the same way that you get nicer interiors on a Lexus than a Toyota. Granted the difference in quality is definitely not worth the difference in cost (like many luxury goods you'll end up paying 5x in price for what feels like a 1.2x improvement in quality). I recently replaced 20 or so $10 target shirts with a handful of $60 shirts from Nordstrom (NM sells them too) and they're much more comfortable, hold up better in the wash too.
dominotw 7y ago
>Doesnt mean no difference but maybe not enough to always charge a premium. Thats why people call Neiman Marcus 'needless markup' :D
_bxg1 7y ago
There's also been a huge trend reversal on "conspicuous consumption". Even the wealthy now do their wealth-signaling through minimalism, instead of flash and excess. Self-proclaimed "luxury brands" have a dwindling market.
- chadash 7y ago
  Do the numbers reflect this? I'm just looking at the stock prices of a few luxury companies like LVMH and and Kering and it seems they were are at all time highs prior to COVID.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    Just my anecdotal impression; it's possible I'm biased by the extents of my bubble
    - ghaff 7y ago
      You probably are. Go to Vegas and there are whole shopping malls where, to indulge in just a degree of hyperbole, I'd have to look hard to find something I could afford. Or at least would even consider affording.
      - jaywalk 7y ago
        And those malls are usually pretty empty, from my experience.
      - _bxg1 7y ago
        In fairness, conspicuous consumption is one of the primary draws of Vegas. Probably not a very representative example.
        blaser-waffle 7y ago
        And it's also a one-off, in a national and international sense. It's like judging consumption levels in the Muslim world by Dubai.
notyourday 7y ago
> There used to be a clear difference between the look of clothes at different retailers but not as much anymore. That's because nearly all the brands sold at places like NM have outsourced manufacturing to the same 3rd rate factories in Asia and Latin America and are riding on a name and those names these days command less premium than Supreme.

sp332 7y ago

First guess: private equity? Neiman Marcus, laden with debt after a private equity takeover, Yup.

johntiger1 7y ago
Wow, why don't people wise up to this PE trick? Seems like creditors would learn their lesson after so many examples...
- razster 7y ago
  Because the creditors make money off it as well.
  - whatok 7y ago
    Can you explain how the creditors of 4bn in Neiman Marcus debt are making money off this?
    - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
      Because they won’t default now.
      - whatok 7y ago
        Ok, a potential positive sum is definitely better than zero but once again, how exactly are creditors making money off this? The grandparent's post is implying that somehow no one is losing money in this situation. I'd like to hear how it works.
    - beamatronic 7y ago
      They probably sold the debt to another party
      - whatok 7y ago
        So you're saying that the original creditors made money off this and new creditors through secondary market transactions are left holding the bag? That's partially true but a massive portion of this debt is in pension funds or passive investments that track index funds. They track benchmark indices so they're buying these bonds at issue or shortly after. With no active management involved, they are also losing money when a company files.

_wldu 7y ago

I hope individuals and businesses start saving again. When I was a kid, everyone saved money. We spent it too, but we all saved for rainy days. Maybe that idea will make a come back now. Be prepared. You never know what may happen.

karatestomp 7y ago
I agree, but if they do we're in for a looooong recovery. If we're not already.
- _wldu 7y ago
  Yes. We should not go over board. Keep spending and supporting local businesses, but save some too. Say 15% of your earnings. Put it in the bank. I remember when my wife tried to get a credit card right after we got married. She could not get one. Back then, there was only Visa and Mastercard. Then Discover card came out and she was able to get one with a very low limit. She used that to build her credit over the years. Today, the grand kids get card offers in the mail several times a month. We need to be somewhere in the middle and not at either extreme.
komali2 7y ago
Were you a kid during the last period of wages rising lock-step with value? I.e., before the 1970s?
icarus_camp 7y ago
There is no incentive (for businesses) with bailouts though. You can't buy out your competitor during a downturn because the government bailout to your competitor is already in the mail. We don't see the airlines that saved for a rainy day going out and buying out the ones that have no cash reserve, because the latter were bailed out. So then the industry as a whole decides not to save because they know the bailout will be there. We need some kind of law where if you take a bailout you give the Fed a controlling interest, you have something like 60 or 90 days to buy that interest back by repaying the bailout. After that other entities have the right to purchase that controlling interest and then they now own you.
7y ago

Merrill 7y ago

“It’s Collapsing Violently”: Coronavirus Is Creating a Fast Fashion Nightmare https://www.gq.com/story/coronavirus-fast-fashion-dana-thomas https://www.gq.com/story/coronavirus-fast-fashion-dana-thoma...

devchix 7y ago
The idea of "fast fashion" is noxious! All those faddish things worn for a season then to take up space in landfills. I don't think I've found affordable clothes made to last anymore (a good quality wool sweater, maybe?) I can't remember when was the last time I was at the mall, or what was the last thing I really really like to buy to wear.
- Reedx 7y ago
  Indeed, fast fashion is one of the most wasteful and polluting industries. It's weird how it gets a pass on that. As for clothing and shoes that last, Patagonia is pretty good.
- alephnan 7y ago
  I don't think quality clothing has ever been cheap. Fabrics like wool and silk are still not cheap and definitely can't be found at a fast fashion store. Another key difference between fast fashion and expensive clothing is simplification of pattern-making.
alephnan 7y ago
Neiman Marcus is not fast fashion
hinkley 7y ago
Fast Fashion is the nightmare. If we are waking up, all the better.

nerfhammer 7y ago

Lord & Taylor next

hoofhearted 7y ago
Prof G had mentioned that Nordstroms could be in a position to be acquired by Amazon back when he made the Wholefoods acquisition prediction. I wonder how their books are fairing these days

b1gtuna 7y ago

I'm not glad these stores are doing bad, but I just never understood how a pair of sneakers can cost $700 - $900 when I can buy a decent laptop with that kind of money.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hhs 7y ago
Those sneakers are likely a Veblen good.
- b1gtuna 7y ago
  Right, but I think EVERY sneaker is a Veblen good. A pair of $20 sneakers want to look like a $100 one and $100 sneakers want to look like $300 ones..
karatestomp 7y ago
Conspicuous consumption. The price is the point. It’s a signaling thing. In the case of something like sneakers with a big brand logo on them, it’s likely someone “low” trying to signal to their peers that they’ve made it (whether they have or not). See: Fussell’s Class, or The Official Preppy Handbook for signaling rules specific to the upper-middle and upper classes (very expensive sneakers with swooshes: big no. Somewhat expensive tennis shoes with wear patterns from serving: yes)
- popup21 7y ago
  > The Official Preppy Handbook LOL, classic WASP literature. I haven't thought of this book since the mid-80s! It's a hilarious read.
  - karatestomp 7y ago
    Some of it (and Class) is just plain good advice. Prefer nice clothes/things, but use the hell out of them and don’t be afraid to repair them. Don’t comment on how nice something someone bought is (this middle-class habit seems really weird after having it pointed out). Avoid “collectibles” and for god’s sake don’t think of them as an investment. That sort of thing.

every 7y ago

Definitely a Brave New World. I guess we won't be getting our His and Hers gold plated, nuclear powered mini-subs this Christmas after all...

every 7y ago
Apparently some here are unfamiliar with this holiday tradition: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/89283/stories-behind-12-outrageous-neiman-marcus-holiday-gifts https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/89283/stories-behind-12-...
- riffic 7y ago
  This one may be more in line with the Hacker News crowd: https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/minicomputers/11/362 https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/minicomputers/11/...

woofyman 7y ago

Their nickname: needless markup

1-6 7y ago

The definition of luxury has changed. It's now more about value, utility, and stability. Luxury means owning property in a high-end location, a MacBook Pro, fast optical networks, clean drinking water, and a reliable car.

blueline 7y ago
that's... a sweeping statement without much evidence beyond your personal experience. do you really think that people buying Saint Laurent jeans last year are now worried about "fast optical networks, clean drinking water, and a reliable car"?
fakedang 7y ago
MacBook Pros are luxury goods now? What someone, such as myself, doesn't really like them, and instead prefers Thinkpads, like most of my peers?
- kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
  What you like has little to do with luxury, and in many cases is actually anti-parallel to luxury. I like my comfortable cotton tank top and my mom's mac and cheese but neither of them are luxury goods. In fact since a lot of luxury is actually about signaling, if it's too comfortable / has high utility, it might actually lose status.
- zone411 7y ago
  There are few more expensive laptops so I'd say so. The 16-inch 2019 MacBook Pro starts at $2400 and you only get a 512 GB SSD for this price. Apple itself is more of a premium brand.

andyv 7y ago

One of Frederick Wiseman's wonderful documentaries is "The Store", which is about Neiman Marcus sometime in the 80's. Currently streaming on Kanopy. One sequence showed the CEO giving a pep talk to his buyers, whose relationship with their suppliers was always strained at best. He told a joke about a buyer who called his supplier that went something like: Buyer: "Hello, is Fred Jones there?" Receptionist: "I'm sorry, Mr. Jones passed away last month" Buyer: "Oh, sorry to hear that, goodbye." Ten minutes later: Buyer: "Hello, is Fred Jones there?" Receptionist: "I told you, he died last month" Buyer: "Oh, oh, yes. Goodbye." Ten minutes later: Buyer: "Hello, is Fred Jones there?" Receptionist: "He's dead, why do you keep calling here?" Buyer: "I just like hearing you say it"

dpeck 7y ago
That is so spot on. I've occasionally played the role of solutions engineer/sales engineer/whatever as part of two different companies selling consumer electronics products to big box stores and that is 100% right. The supplier/buyer relationships are very "frenemy" even in the best of times.
- Tronno 7y ago
  > The supplier/buyer relationships are very "frenemy" even in the best of times. Why?
lancesells 7y ago
Off topic but I wish I could pay for Kanopy as an individual. It was so great when my library supported it.

alephnan 7y ago

Interesting how the Barney's bankruptcy did not receive any commentary from the HackerNews. As a software engineer with a degree in fashion design as well, I believe both luxury retail stores are equally notorious

bdcravens 7y ago
Probably due to size?
- alephnan 7y ago
  As in market cap? It's 3x more, but Barney's is more legendary in fashion circles. Could also because there is more brand dilution at Neiman Marcus
  - whatok 7y ago
    Neiman Marcus has no public market cap; it's a private company. You're probably referring to their debt.
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    I was referring to the number of stores, which speaks to whether it's a "common" brand (outside of fashion circles)

worik 7y ago

Inverse pass the parcel: Those who pass it on get the prize, the child that ends up holding it looses... everything

lkrubner 7y ago

Everyone talks about the "Amazon effect" but the changing distribution of income is also worth considering: "Retail is suffering because the middle classes have lost $1,355 trillion in income since 1970" http://www.smashcompany.com/business/retail-is-suffering-because-the-middle-classes-have-lost-1-355-trillion-in-income-since-1970?source=Snapzu http://www.smashcompany.com/business/retail-is-suffering-bec...

twblalock 7y ago
I don't buy that explanation. A lot of traditional mall and department store retail is suffering, but other kinds of retail is doing great selling to middle-class Americans. Examples include Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, Target, and Amazon. They are winning because they offer more convenience to customers as a result of their size, selection, and online presence. Besides, this article is about a luxury retailer, not the kind of place middle-class Americans go to.
- nutshell89 7y ago
  Neiman Marcus suffers from two additional factors imo - a lot of their retail is in pricy urban real estate markets (Beverly Hills, Palo Alto, Stockton Street, Michigan Ave, Hudson Yards, Tysons, Houston's Galleria, etc.) where rents have escalated in recent years in comparison to cheap Amazon / Walmart style giant warehouses outside of town. Additionally, NM has been owned by PE for years putting financial strain on the company.
  - stainforth 7y ago
    Why don't those landlords just lower their rents to meet demand then?
    - samatman 7y ago
      If you went to any of those places before the pandemic, you wouldn't have seen any empty storefronts. Just because it squeezed Neiman Marcus, doesn't mean other stores could afford it. Of course, everything has changed now. Will landlords have to lower their rents in response? Maybe.

rb808 7y ago

People dress very cheaply now. I'm always amazed from historic photos, it seems the further back you go the more money they spent on appearance. These days it just looks like no one cares. I'm surprised upmarket stores lasted this long.

akdas 7y ago
That's partially because photos used to be rarer. So either the subjects were richer to have access to photos, or the subjects dressed their best when getting their photographs taken.
chillacy 7y ago
Also depends where you live. Seattle is very different than NYC or Paris.
scollet 7y ago
Price doesn't reflect quality. Ever pull a good thrift store haul?
- lilsoso 7y ago
  There's a phrase, 'cut and cloth'. Better materials, the basic ingredients, generally increases the price (cloth from quality fabric mills, finer wools, nice dyes, shell buttons, leather, etc...). And the cut matters, to pay for a tailored shirt in England or Italy will cost you -- that is, the labor, design, and construction. Sure, a high price tag does not necessarily imply quality -- but let's not be fools about the matter.

Stratoscope 7y ago

One of my few regrets in life is that I never bought the family a Neiman Marcus Kitchen Computer. https://www.google.com/search?q=neiman+marcus+kitchen+computer https://www.google.com/search?q=neiman+marcus+kitchen+comput...

musicale 7y ago

> Neiman Marcus, laden with debt after a private equity takeover... How unsurprising.

gfxgirl 7y ago

I'd been to the Neiman Marcus in SF maybe.... once a year when in lived in SF. And a few times in Newport Beach over the last 20 years. I've never seen more than a few people per floor. It's not surprising to me they are going under. I don't know who their market was. It was all very high end. But, seeing almost no one in those giant stores always seemed like the end was near.

paypalcust83 7y ago

I can almost hear it: Where oh where will I buy a fluorescent fuchsia sports coat for $8000 now? Amazon and similar are no good for luxury goods because of the lack of service that luxury shoppers expect. Perhaps they need to shift to an online-first model with video-conferenced personal shoppers who can browse store-like inventory while serving qualified shoppers who can concurrently navigate their wardrobe? Personally, I like Neimy's, but not as a go-to retailer but as a once-every-twenty-years-buy-something-nice-and-crazy; their service is/was fantastic, they know their products/fashion, and their employees aren't/weren't like standard American retail salespeople. Ordinarily, I go to Salvation Army and Goodwill for outer clothing only, and eBay for new-but-discontinued b-stock or liquidated inventory of other clothing that I can no longer find.

CodeSheikh 7y ago

They just opened a huge new store at Hudson Yards in NYC. I’m sure lack of foreign rich tourists(mainly rich Chinese) during COVID months must have hurt them big time as well.