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I have also experience close to burnout and recovered multiple times, in the process I have lost very precious relationships, and entire years were spent in dar

I have also experience close to burnout and recovered multiple times, in the process I have lost very precious relationships, and entire years were spent in darkness. I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to burning out though they would never admit to such. This is the nature of the beast, all things that appear glamorous on the outside ( Hollywood, Finance, Tech, many nonprofits) is very rotten on the inside. You can't change the past, but you can recalibrate your expectations and medidate on what went wrong. Here are some thoughts, and I will be very harsh: 1. Your co-workers may be amazing, but they were never your friends. You ran a business and rented their years to help them build a nest egg, of which you would claim the majority share had it hatched. Alas, the business failed and thus, you no longer add value to each other's lives. Move on. 2. There's what you love, and there's what you do. It's best to keep some distance: because no one cares about what you love. VCs are vultures and this is well known, but they are also reflecting the reality of the market. In the market you're just a vendor. Think about all the food stands that you have walked past in your life, within each stand is an immigrant family who slave away for decades hoping for a better life. Have you ever thought about them and gave them time/money for their suffering? No, you only cared them inso far as they can cook for you. This is how others saw you. 3. Big companies, and indeed most big institutions is made by a silent majority of the defeated. Many have experienced what you have said and have long made their peace. They found joy elsewhere, and found distance between themselves and their work. 4. Find self worth and self-love outside of your role in the machine, there's the product you produce to trade time for money, and then there's you. They are different things. Imagine Instagram influencers who post pictures of themselves but feel depressed when they don't get enough likes. This is you right now, you're looking for external validation from how big your integer is in some database. You have to look elsewhere.

throwaway839246 6y ago
Thanks for the advice. It's really good. > Think about all the food stands that you have walked past in your life, within each stand is an immigrant family who slave away for decades hoping for a better life. Have you ever thought about them and gave them time/money for their suffering? I know what you mean and know what you're getting at. But I feel compelled to point out this particular example isn't quite the same. I never sought the immigrant family out, then told them that my motivation is to support amazing cooks rooted in authentic traditions. I just bought the food. VCs will lie, literally. They explicitly say they will act in a particular way in a specific situation, and then, protected by nuanced 300 page contracts, will do the exact opposite of what they said they'll do. Assuming you accept that lying to people is unethical, people act transactionally with immigrant vendors, but not unethically in the same way.
- nnoitra 6y ago
  How old are you? Why would you be at all surprised that VCs lie?
  - bigwavedave 6y ago
    I don't believe the parent was expressing surprise at this unethical behavior, they were instead pointing out one way the grandparent's example isn't quite equivalent to the situation the OP provided.
  - phkahler 6y ago
    Projection? As a fairly honest person it took a long time to stop assuming other people were too. The alternative world view is disappointing but you get used to it.
    - zozbot234 6y ago
      People are generally honest of course but investing is an adversarial setting essentially by definition, where honesty is hard to come by. Sometimes being more honest than needed might even put you at an unfair disadvantage, and keeping some cards close to your chest is just expected. And of course, it's not like you have to get VC involved in order to run a successful business. You can self-bootstrap, which lets you focus 110% on efficiency and doing more with less. No BS involved.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't cross into personal attack on HN. And please don't cross-examine other users. That's not curious conversation, which is what we're here for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- xiaolingxiao 6y ago
  Yeah the lying is really gross. It's an odd arrangement in this country where "shareholder value" can literally justify most things in the eyes of those with money. For a more personal anecdote, I have a friend who's been in the VC industry for 5+ years, and we had a very interesting conversation. He was closing a deal with a company and they asked for a higher valuation, and he thought objectively it's merited. But then he thought: "if I give you the higher valuation, then you would have more and I would have less, but I want more". And that's the root of it, human nature. Now assuming these VCs have been in the game for more than 5 years, I would imagine they would lie without a second thought. Now see it from the VC's perspective, the game attracts all kinds of hustlers who'd lie to investors without a second thought as well. My friend and I were talking about what business culture is like in a certain area of the world, and he said: they oversell everything, so take everything they say and divide it by two, and start from there. So part of it is also a pre-emptive mechanism based on a history of such behaviors from others. None of this make things "ok", but I'm just sharing an anecdote from the other side.
dkdk8283 6y ago
> I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to burning out I realize the audience here is probably mostly younger folks but 10 years doing anything is not that much time IMO. I think a 3rd or 4th burnout at 30 years of service is a lot harder to recover from, but I’m biased from my own experience.
- xiaolingxiao 6y ago
  Yeah you're absolutely correct. I wish I had more perspective to offer but that's what I got. The OP also sounds younger (I may be wrong), so I hope it is ok.
- throwaway839246 6y ago
  Would you share yours? I'd really like to hear from an older person. I'd imagine you know 10x of what I do now. It would be incredibly helpful if you could share some of what you've experienced and learned.
  - sanderjd 6y ago
    Mostly guessing, but I think I'm like halfway between you and the commenter you're replying to. I've been where you are, not from the exact same path, but what you're feeling is familiar to me. My two cents: I find joy doing challenging work on products that are useful to a bunch of people without needing to be "the next big thing". But what I find more joy in is my life outside of work, in spending time with and taking care of my extended family (including my close friends). The most success I've had with this so far has been at a big tech company. This is for a number of reasons: the product I work on is more likely to be useful to lots of people that way (because a lot of the marketing work has been done already), which also makes the work challenging (because scale brings challenges), and compensation and work-life balance are good so I can spend a lot of low-stress time focusing on family. I personally find the most joy working on things that mostly make money through charging people money for services because it feels like the most honest way for my salary to be paid, but I'm not sure how much that relates to this, it might just be a personal preference. Reading your post, I wondered whether you misinterpreted your big-tech coworkers. They might not have been checked out, they might have just been doing their work while having other interests that were more important to them. That is my interpretation of the people I work with (and of myself). I think it can look pretty lame to excited young people, but it's actually the opposite; what's lame is being super into working rather than other better things. But as a follow-on, something I've been thinking about recently is whether I can take the useful skills I've built through a career in tech and apply them elsewhere, supported by the savings I've been able to build up. I'm not sure what that looks like, but being able to gather, process, analyze, and operationalize data seems important for lots of things, and that's something I know how to do (and I'm not alone here, software is largely about processing data). But I don't know what the most useful thing is to do with those skills; right now what seems important and in demand is epidemiology, but it's probably too late to become useful to this moment. Probably something in the broad sustainability space is more forward-looking. I'm still looking around. I guess the two points I'm trying to make are: 1. You may be able to find joy by having more modest expectations, and 2. There may be other useful things to do with the skills you built, you should keep your eyes open for them. Hope this helps a bit, cheers!
TomMckenny 6y ago
All accurate and objective and good for everyone to know early rather than late. Moving a bit further from the specifics, it's worth noting that this is not a natural state of affairs. Humans evolved to be in groups of about 30-100 people who they knew their whole lives and thus making catastrophic deception nearly impossible. Likewise vast sums of wealth did not exist nor total social and fiscal isolation surrounded by the complete opposite that characterize our city streets and daily life. My point is that human psychology did not evolve in the context of our current world and will have enormous difficulty dealing with its bad sides. Although the specifics will vary, the number of people in the poster's position is undoubtedly enormous, with the vast majority too tired or ashamed of discussing it or just blaming themselves. This being the case, it would be nice to have serious study of it and resources to address it more effectively. Not to criticize any poster, but it is unfortunate than seeking advice from the web is currently the best one can do.
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  Even at that time, psychopaths were still successful enough to pass on the genes for their trait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Environment
  - cat199 6y ago
    ... as were those that think biology predetermines everything
    - yownie 6y ago
      not really sure what point you're trying to make here. You don't believe in biology?
      - kitotik 6y ago
        Perhaps it was a reference to nature vs. nurture, and how they can both play a part in outcomes.
moneywoes 6y ago
Well said. External gratification won't solve anything. Any advice to someone new in the industry to avoid burnout?
- elwell 6y ago
  Work on interesting things or make the things you're working on interesting. Don't work only for yourself; take on the mind of a servant and you'll often be grateful. Don't look for total fulfillment from the things you can see, or the things that pass away. Store up treasures in a place that won't fade away.
- pacifika 6y ago
  Choose based on what you want to do, not what other people want you to do.
- bregma 6y ago
  It's just a job. Always leave them wanting more. (disclaimer: I've been in the industry for over 40 years... these days I avoid burnout by counting the dollars until I retire)
Skunkleton 6y ago
I would also like to add that therapy is not just for the mentally ill, and nothing to be ashamed of. Navigating your career, and life in general, is tough and a good therapist can help put it in perspective. I personally went to therapy weekly for about six months to help deal with the impact of burnout on my life. I think I came away from it a more capable person.
- bearer_token 6y ago
  I have an odd fear of going to a therapist in the bay area - when all my issues are caused by being yet another bay area stereotype. Do you think therapists get tired of dealing with people who are just unhappy with their job in a bubble?
  - jlbnjmn 6y ago
    Plenty of remote therapists available.
    - steve_adams_86 6y ago
      This is a good point. My therapist lives thousands of kilometers away. If you have a good fit, the distance might not matter. I had one in my city before and he was great too, but he knew a colleague might have more relevant experience. I was doubtful about the distance aspect, but it's been totally fine since day one. It's definitely worth considering.
  - Skunkleton 6y ago
    My experience in therapy mostly focused on taking responsibility for my emotions. Usually the therapist would ask what was on my mind, and I would talk for a little while about the usually stuff that makes programmers sad. He would then guide the conversation to show how I could take responsibility not for the situation, but for my emotional response. At least that was my take away, I can’t say for sure that was his goal. Do I think that your therapist would judge you for your problems? Absolutely not, if they are even an OK therapist. They are professionals, and are not trying to be your friend. Another thing. The first therapist I went to sucked. She had me doing worksheets and other stuff that just didn’t work for me. I ended up switching (my wife made me switch) to a new therapist and it was a huge difference. If you do end up trying therapy, remember that this is a professional situation. You wouldn’t go to the same bad sandwich shop for lunch every day. If your therapist isn’t working for you, and you have given them a honest try, just switch therapists. Ultimately, therapy was a leap of faith that I’m glad I took.
dkural 6y ago
For what is worth, "there's the product you produce to trade time for money, and then there's you" is precisely what alienation from labor feels like, and you're advocating that one must just accept it. People have a deep need to relate as full human beings to their work. Trying to be content with finding self-worth only outside of work doesn't solve burnout. Work is a big chunk of our time and energy. Humans need to human.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  It's rare that I can read this. I used to be equating my work to my soul. And it hurts badly when you're not surrounded with people in a similar mindset.
- _coveredInBees 6y ago
  Yes, I was surprised by that line. I tried to do that. 10 years ago I was a newly minted Ph.D. and my wife and I had to solve the 2 body problem and we compromised with our jobs so we could both be employed together in a nice town with a relatively low cost of living and a great place to raise a family. Our lives outside of work were fantastic! Great friends, nice house, lots of weekend activities, got my first pup (waiting my whole life to have my own place so I could have one), had my twins a year later. But good God was my job (big company, lots of politics and bad management... the usual) absolutely soul crushing. I thought that I'd be able to make my peace with it in lieu of everything else which was near perfect, but the more time dragged on, the more it crushed me and sucked joy out of the other areas of my life. I will never forget the sense of existential dread that would overcome me every Sunday evening and the relief on Friday evenings. Fortunately I was able to leave and take up an opportunity at a small startup in the ML/consulting space. It's entirely bootstrapped, so no VC people fucking everything up, and the management are incredibly nice and decent humans, and several of them I count as close friends. I love the work that I do, and I am almost always learning new things. I've been working here for 4 years, and I have never yet experienced that existential dread on a Sunday evening. Work is just another part of my life that I enjoy now, and it is incredible how happy and fulfilled I am with my life. My wife has fortunately experienced the same with the move and change in jobs. I get hit up by recruiters for the big tech companies all the time and there simply is no reason why I would ever consider working at any of those companies to be another cog in the wheel. No amount of money can ever make up for what I have now. So I would strongly encourage anyone who is in the situation described by OP or me above to try their best to switch jobs if possible. I can't fathom going through my whole adult life as unhappy as I was at my first job and I wouldn't wish it on even my worst enemy.
seppin 6y ago
> There's what you love, and there's what you do. It's best to keep some distance: Underrated piece of advice. Keep the way you make money and your passions separate. You love photography? Great, do it on weekends. If you become a pro you'll end up photographing weddings and hating your life and the thing you thought you loved.
- bawana 6y ago
  You can learn to hate anything by force feeding yourself too much of it too fast.
xil12008 6y ago
Everyday I keep reminding myself that I don't really own anything - for every single line of code I am compensated with the money that I could use for whatever purpose. That being said, the illusion of ownership and purpose is fake. You don't really own any thing, and your contribution to the code base only has meaning for the company, but is meaningless for yourself. You just make a deal with the owner of the product, a.k.a. the shareholders of a company, that you agree to sell your time/intelligence/effort to them for money.
- jcbrand 6y ago
  > and your contribution to the code base only has meaning for the company, but is meaningless for yourself An activity can have meaning in and of itself, and it's up to you whether you infuse something with meaning or not. To me this is one of the themes of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance". Concerning valuing code you write for others, do you value finishing a crossword puzzle or a game of cards? Those activities are of no use other than the joy of doing them. Programming can be the same way, and I believe whether it is like that has a lot to do with your inner state and how you approach it, regardless of whether you're doing it for a company or not.
artsyca 6y ago
It's a failure of imagination to view this as a trade of time for money and little else in truth the people at the company are investors even more than the vulture capitalists because they are investing their energy and presence and a high opportunity cost to boot The biggest problem with all of the attitudes is they're off the mark and people are going through the same motions expecting different outcomes it's the worst form of repeating yourself The best advice anyone can give a wannabe intellectual capitalist is : learn to dress BRING ON THE DOWNVOTES YOU TURKEYS
gcc_programmer 6y ago
This
arvinsim 6y ago
I think compounding the problem right now is that people can't simply switch or take a sabbatical in this current climate. Those that are contemplating getting away from their current work are thinking twice about it, even if the workplace is already toxic.
dgudkov 6y ago
This sounds so American to me. I grew up in Eastern Europe and general attitude towards work, life, and friendship is so much different. Some of the best friendships I've made were at the companies I worked for. I've seen cases where people make so good friendships at work that it even makes them postpone switching jobs to move up the career ladder. Work is not everything in your life. Work is important for sure, but there are other sources of joy in life. I can't help but think that Americans miss so much in life because of their obsession with work, money, and social status. Hence such posts on HN.
- xrisk 6y ago
  It’s probably just the general HN crowd I think.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- christophilus 6y ago
  I’m in the US and my experience is the same as yours. Maybe 50% of my friends are coworkers and former coworkers. I have almost always stayed at companies longer than I otherwise would because I loved my coworkers. Burnout for me is caused by too much bureaucracy, too many meetings, and incompatible programming philosophies. Only twice in my long career have I left a job due to an insufferable coworker.
  - sanderjd 6y ago
    > incompatible programming philosophies This really hits home for me. I'm at my most miserable when working with people who value doing things fast more than doing them well. I suspect those people are also at their most miserable when working with me. I see them as creating work that I'll have to do eventually to clean up their mess, and I suspect they see me as an insufferable gatekeeper.
    - ratww 6y ago
      Do you enjoy cleaning up their mess? If so, is it not the perfect environment, where everyone is doing something they do best and enjoy? Or do you dislike cleaning it up? In this case, why do you do it? Noblesse Oblige? Asking because I love refactoring. I also love pushing features fast. But I absolutely dread having to do "perfect code" in the first try. I keep trying to push this idea (inspired by Mythical-Man-Month) here in HN that a perfect team would have people "working fast and breaking things" with people working behind them that love refactoring everything cleaning it up.
skinkestek 6y ago
> Have you ever thought about them and gave them time/money for their suffering? No, you only cared them inso far as they can cook for you. This is how others saw you. Well, actually (and I'm deliberately using my sock puppet account to say this as this is one of the things one should just do and not brag about): For some of us, many of us, but not most of us I'm afraid, we buy stuff not necessarily because we need it or even want it but partially because of who is selling it. Every time the kids come to sell the newspaper on the weekend I buy it, read two pages that I coild have read online and leave it on the table in case my wife wants to read it. She doesn't so it ends in trash. Meanwhile I've been part of teaching one kid the value of honest work. My brother-in-law paid for his first Mac using money he earned from selling newspapers in the weekends. He is an amazing producer now and has been working both as a singke man production team with a local TV station where he lives, at international conferences and sometimes with at least one if not two national TV stations. Maybe I'm giving another brilliant kid a chance now? Based on the fact that they show up every weekend there might be some potential :-) This could have been a Scandinavian thing, but I know kt exists in the US too. I think I heard about it in an audio book named something along the lines of "400 things cops know" or something: <something along the lines of> > As a police officer if you walk by a lemonade stand or (something else I can't remember) you should buy! Even if you aren't thirsty! Personally, even as a grown up I've had customers telling me in no uncertain terms to raise my prices, and I've heard my boss (or technically, the operations manager, two steps above my boss) telling me again to tell a vendor from a less fortunate country that the contract was fine but the operations manager refused to pay the ridiculously low price they quoted.
joekrill 6y ago
This is such a defeatist attitude and, I think, completely unnecessary. And saying it as fact sort of perpetuates the whole situation. It doesn't have to be this way. But most people allow it to be this way. > Your co-workers may be amazing, but they were never your friends. Anecdotally, I've met some of my best friends by working with them. I have many friends that I haven't met through work, but when you spend the bulk of your day with people you form bonds - and friendships - with them. It's sort of human nature. > There's what you love, and there's what you do. It's best to keep some distance: because no one cares about what you love. What you love and what you do don't _have_ to be different. And some people _do_ care about what you love. Most don't, sure. And at most larger companies you _are_ just a cog in the wheel. But that doesn't mean folks shouldn't strive to find meaningful work that they love to do. It may not pay as well monetarily, but it pays in other ways. > No, you only cared them inso far as they can cook for you. This is how others saw you. I don't seek out the immigrant family, but I'm friendly and cordial with them. I chat with them and treat them as equals. I pay them fairly for what they provide me. I don't try to squeeze every last cent out of them or negotiate my meal from them, or make them feel like less of a person. And in return they provide the same. Maybe I'm naive, sure. But if so, at least I'm not an asshole. > Big companies, and indeed most big institutions is made by a silent majority of the defeated. This is mostly true. I agree. It's unfortunate. But big institutions aren't the only options. > You have to look elsewhere. You don't have to. You can, and in some cases you should. But it's not the only option. There ARE people who aren't wholly obsessed with making money at all costs. Unfortunately, in the US at least, a lot of people don't have that attitude and _are_ obsessed with making money at all costs. And our society (at least in the US) has been built in ways that praise that sort of attitude. But there are plenty of people who aren't like that. It's hard to find them sometimes, depending on what sort of circles you run in and the sort of people you surround yourself with - but they are out there.
camelite 6y ago
"the silent majority of the defeated" That's great writing.
juzerali 6y ago
In those stern points, there is some farm good existential advice.
tripzilch 6y ago
> There's what you love, and there's what you do. It's best to keep some distance: because no one cares about what you love. Isn't that cultural? Cause I find I care a lot more about what people love than what they "do". Ask someone what they do [for a living], and you say "oh that's cool" and conversation is at a standstill again. Ask someone what they love and you'll get a whole different kind of conversation.

throwaway839246 6y ago

Thanks for the advice. It's really good. > Think about all the food stands that you have walked past in your life, within each stand is an immigrant family who slave away for decades hoping for a better life. Have you ever thought about them and gave them time/money for their suffering? I know what you mean and know what you're getting at. But I feel compelled to point out this particular example isn't quite the same. I never sought the immigrant family out, then told them that my motivation is to support amazing cooks rooted in authentic traditions. I just bought the food. VCs will lie, literally. They explicitly say they will act in a particular way in a specific situation, and then, protected by nuanced 300 page contracts, will do the exact opposite of what they said they'll do. Assuming you accept that lying to people is unethical, people act transactionally with immigrant vendors, but not unethically in the same way.

nnoitra 6y ago
How old are you? Why would you be at all surprised that VCs lie?
- bigwavedave 6y ago
  I don't believe the parent was expressing surprise at this unethical behavior, they were instead pointing out one way the grandparent's example isn't quite equivalent to the situation the OP provided.
- phkahler 6y ago
  Projection? As a fairly honest person it took a long time to stop assuming other people were too. The alternative world view is disappointing but you get used to it.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    People are generally honest of course but investing is an adversarial setting essentially by definition, where honesty is hard to come by. Sometimes being more honest than needed might even put you at an unfair disadvantage, and keeping some cards close to your chest is just expected. And of course, it's not like you have to get VC involved in order to run a successful business. You can self-bootstrap, which lets you focus 110% on efficiency and doing more with less. No BS involved.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't cross into personal attack on HN. And please don't cross-examine other users. That's not curious conversation, which is what we're here for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
xiaolingxiao 6y ago
Yeah the lying is really gross. It's an odd arrangement in this country where "shareholder value" can literally justify most things in the eyes of those with money. For a more personal anecdote, I have a friend who's been in the VC industry for 5+ years, and we had a very interesting conversation. He was closing a deal with a company and they asked for a higher valuation, and he thought objectively it's merited. But then he thought: "if I give you the higher valuation, then you would have more and I would have less, but I want more". And that's the root of it, human nature. Now assuming these VCs have been in the game for more than 5 years, I would imagine they would lie without a second thought. Now see it from the VC's perspective, the game attracts all kinds of hustlers who'd lie to investors without a second thought as well. My friend and I were talking about what business culture is like in a certain area of the world, and he said: they oversell everything, so take everything they say and divide it by two, and start from there. So part of it is also a pre-emptive mechanism based on a history of such behaviors from others. None of this make things "ok", but I'm just sharing an anecdote from the other side.

dkdk8283 6y ago

> I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to burning out I realize the audience here is probably mostly younger folks but 10 years doing anything is not that much time IMO. I think a 3rd or 4th burnout at 30 years of service is a lot harder to recover from, but I’m biased from my own experience.

xiaolingxiao 6y ago
Yeah you're absolutely correct. I wish I had more perspective to offer but that's what I got. The OP also sounds younger (I may be wrong), so I hope it is ok.
throwaway839246 6y ago
Would you share yours? I'd really like to hear from an older person. I'd imagine you know 10x of what I do now. It would be incredibly helpful if you could share some of what you've experienced and learned.
- sanderjd 6y ago
  Mostly guessing, but I think I'm like halfway between you and the commenter you're replying to. I've been where you are, not from the exact same path, but what you're feeling is familiar to me. My two cents: I find joy doing challenging work on products that are useful to a bunch of people without needing to be "the next big thing". But what I find more joy in is my life outside of work, in spending time with and taking care of my extended family (including my close friends). The most success I've had with this so far has been at a big tech company. This is for a number of reasons: the product I work on is more likely to be useful to lots of people that way (because a lot of the marketing work has been done already), which also makes the work challenging (because scale brings challenges), and compensation and work-life balance are good so I can spend a lot of low-stress time focusing on family. I personally find the most joy working on things that mostly make money through charging people money for services because it feels like the most honest way for my salary to be paid, but I'm not sure how much that relates to this, it might just be a personal preference. Reading your post, I wondered whether you misinterpreted your big-tech coworkers. They might not have been checked out, they might have just been doing their work while having other interests that were more important to them. That is my interpretation of the people I work with (and of myself). I think it can look pretty lame to excited young people, but it's actually the opposite; what's lame is being super into working rather than other better things. But as a follow-on, something I've been thinking about recently is whether I can take the useful skills I've built through a career in tech and apply them elsewhere, supported by the savings I've been able to build up. I'm not sure what that looks like, but being able to gather, process, analyze, and operationalize data seems important for lots of things, and that's something I know how to do (and I'm not alone here, software is largely about processing data). But I don't know what the most useful thing is to do with those skills; right now what seems important and in demand is epidemiology, but it's probably too late to become useful to this moment. Probably something in the broad sustainability space is more forward-looking. I'm still looking around. I guess the two points I'm trying to make are: 1. You may be able to find joy by having more modest expectations, and 2. There may be other useful things to do with the skills you built, you should keep your eyes open for them. Hope this helps a bit, cheers!

TomMckenny 6y ago

All accurate and objective and good for everyone to know early rather than late. Moving a bit further from the specifics, it's worth noting that this is not a natural state of affairs. Humans evolved to be in groups of about 30-100 people who they knew their whole lives and thus making catastrophic deception nearly impossible. Likewise vast sums of wealth did not exist nor total social and fiscal isolation surrounded by the complete opposite that characterize our city streets and daily life. My point is that human psychology did not evolve in the context of our current world and will have enormous difficulty dealing with its bad sides. Although the specifics will vary, the number of people in the poster's position is undoubtedly enormous, with the vast majority too tired or ashamed of discussing it or just blaming themselves. This being the case, it would be nice to have serious study of it and resources to address it more effectively. Not to criticize any poster, but it is unfortunate than seeking advice from the web is currently the best one can do.

fxtentacle 6y ago
Even at that time, psychopaths were still successful enough to pass on the genes for their trait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Environment
- cat199 6y ago
  ... as were those that think biology predetermines everything
  - yownie 6y ago
    not really sure what point you're trying to make here. You don't believe in biology?
    - kitotik 6y ago
      Perhaps it was a reference to nature vs. nurture, and how they can both play a part in outcomes.

moneywoes 6y ago

Well said. External gratification won't solve anything. Any advice to someone new in the industry to avoid burnout?

elwell 6y ago
Work on interesting things or make the things you're working on interesting. Don't work only for yourself; take on the mind of a servant and you'll often be grateful. Don't look for total fulfillment from the things you can see, or the things that pass away. Store up treasures in a place that won't fade away.
pacifika 6y ago
Choose based on what you want to do, not what other people want you to do.
bregma 6y ago
It's just a job. Always leave them wanting more. (disclaimer: I've been in the industry for over 40 years... these days I avoid burnout by counting the dollars until I retire)

Skunkleton 6y ago

I would also like to add that therapy is not just for the mentally ill, and nothing to be ashamed of. Navigating your career, and life in general, is tough and a good therapist can help put it in perspective. I personally went to therapy weekly for about six months to help deal with the impact of burnout on my life. I think I came away from it a more capable person.

bearer_token 6y ago
I have an odd fear of going to a therapist in the bay area - when all my issues are caused by being yet another bay area stereotype. Do you think therapists get tired of dealing with people who are just unhappy with their job in a bubble?
- jlbnjmn 6y ago
  Plenty of remote therapists available.
  - steve_adams_86 6y ago
    This is a good point. My therapist lives thousands of kilometers away. If you have a good fit, the distance might not matter. I had one in my city before and he was great too, but he knew a colleague might have more relevant experience. I was doubtful about the distance aspect, but it's been totally fine since day one. It's definitely worth considering.
- Skunkleton 6y ago
  My experience in therapy mostly focused on taking responsibility for my emotions. Usually the therapist would ask what was on my mind, and I would talk for a little while about the usually stuff that makes programmers sad. He would then guide the conversation to show how I could take responsibility not for the situation, but for my emotional response. At least that was my take away, I can’t say for sure that was his goal. Do I think that your therapist would judge you for your problems? Absolutely not, if they are even an OK therapist. They are professionals, and are not trying to be your friend. Another thing. The first therapist I went to sucked. She had me doing worksheets and other stuff that just didn’t work for me. I ended up switching (my wife made me switch) to a new therapist and it was a huge difference. If you do end up trying therapy, remember that this is a professional situation. You wouldn’t go to the same bad sandwich shop for lunch every day. If your therapist isn’t working for you, and you have given them a honest try, just switch therapists. Ultimately, therapy was a leap of faith that I’m glad I took.

dkural 6y ago

For what is worth, "there's the product you produce to trade time for money, and then there's you" is precisely what alienation from labor feels like, and you're advocating that one must just accept it. People have a deep need to relate as full human beings to their work. Trying to be content with finding self-worth only outside of work doesn't solve burnout. Work is a big chunk of our time and energy. Humans need to human.

agumonkey 6y ago
It's rare that I can read this. I used to be equating my work to my soul. And it hurts badly when you're not surrounded with people in a similar mindset.
_coveredInBees 6y ago
Yes, I was surprised by that line. I tried to do that. 10 years ago I was a newly minted Ph.D. and my wife and I had to solve the 2 body problem and we compromised with our jobs so we could both be employed together in a nice town with a relatively low cost of living and a great place to raise a family. Our lives outside of work were fantastic! Great friends, nice house, lots of weekend activities, got my first pup (waiting my whole life to have my own place so I could have one), had my twins a year later. But good God was my job (big company, lots of politics and bad management... the usual) absolutely soul crushing. I thought that I'd be able to make my peace with it in lieu of everything else which was near perfect, but the more time dragged on, the more it crushed me and sucked joy out of the other areas of my life. I will never forget the sense of existential dread that would overcome me every Sunday evening and the relief on Friday evenings. Fortunately I was able to leave and take up an opportunity at a small startup in the ML/consulting space. It's entirely bootstrapped, so no VC people fucking everything up, and the management are incredibly nice and decent humans, and several of them I count as close friends. I love the work that I do, and I am almost always learning new things. I've been working here for 4 years, and I have never yet experienced that existential dread on a Sunday evening. Work is just another part of my life that I enjoy now, and it is incredible how happy and fulfilled I am with my life. My wife has fortunately experienced the same with the move and change in jobs. I get hit up by recruiters for the big tech companies all the time and there simply is no reason why I would ever consider working at any of those companies to be another cog in the wheel. No amount of money can ever make up for what I have now. So I would strongly encourage anyone who is in the situation described by OP or me above to try their best to switch jobs if possible. I can't fathom going through my whole adult life as unhappy as I was at my first job and I wouldn't wish it on even my worst enemy.

seppin 6y ago

> There's what you love, and there's what you do. It's best to keep some distance: Underrated piece of advice. Keep the way you make money and your passions separate. You love photography? Great, do it on weekends. If you become a pro you'll end up photographing weddings and hating your life and the thing you thought you loved.

bawana 6y ago
You can learn to hate anything by force feeding yourself too much of it too fast.

xil12008 6y ago

Everyday I keep reminding myself that I don't really own anything - for every single line of code I am compensated with the money that I could use for whatever purpose. That being said, the illusion of ownership and purpose is fake. You don't really own any thing, and your contribution to the code base only has meaning for the company, but is meaningless for yourself. You just make a deal with the owner of the product, a.k.a. the shareholders of a company, that you agree to sell your time/intelligence/effort to them for money.

jcbrand 6y ago
> and your contribution to the code base only has meaning for the company, but is meaningless for yourself An activity can have meaning in and of itself, and it's up to you whether you infuse something with meaning or not. To me this is one of the themes of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance". Concerning valuing code you write for others, do you value finishing a crossword puzzle or a game of cards? Those activities are of no use other than the joy of doing them. Programming can be the same way, and I believe whether it is like that has a lot to do with your inner state and how you approach it, regardless of whether you're doing it for a company or not.

artsyca 6y ago

It's a failure of imagination to view this as a trade of time for money and little else in truth the people at the company are investors even more than the vulture capitalists because they are investing their energy and presence and a high opportunity cost to boot The biggest problem with all of the attitudes is they're off the mark and people are going through the same motions expecting different outcomes it's the worst form of repeating yourself The best advice anyone can give a wannabe intellectual capitalist is : learn to dress BRING ON THE DOWNVOTES YOU TURKEYS

gcc_programmer 6y ago

This

arvinsim 6y ago

I think compounding the problem right now is that people can't simply switch or take a sabbatical in this current climate. Those that are contemplating getting away from their current work are thinking twice about it, even if the workplace is already toxic.

dgudkov 6y ago

This sounds so American to me. I grew up in Eastern Europe and general attitude towards work, life, and friendship is so much different. Some of the best friendships I've made were at the companies I worked for. I've seen cases where people make so good friendships at work that it even makes them postpone switching jobs to move up the career ladder. Work is not everything in your life. Work is important for sure, but there are other sources of joy in life. I can't help but think that Americans miss so much in life because of their obsession with work, money, and social status. Hence such posts on HN.

xrisk 6y ago
It’s probably just the general HN crowd I think.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
christophilus 6y ago
I’m in the US and my experience is the same as yours. Maybe 50% of my friends are coworkers and former coworkers. I have almost always stayed at companies longer than I otherwise would because I loved my coworkers. Burnout for me is caused by too much bureaucracy, too many meetings, and incompatible programming philosophies. Only twice in my long career have I left a job due to an insufferable coworker.
- sanderjd 6y ago
  > incompatible programming philosophies This really hits home for me. I'm at my most miserable when working with people who value doing things fast more than doing them well. I suspect those people are also at their most miserable when working with me. I see them as creating work that I'll have to do eventually to clean up their mess, and I suspect they see me as an insufferable gatekeeper.
  - ratww 6y ago
    Do you enjoy cleaning up their mess? If so, is it not the perfect environment, where everyone is doing something they do best and enjoy? Or do you dislike cleaning it up? In this case, why do you do it? Noblesse Oblige? Asking because I love refactoring. I also love pushing features fast. But I absolutely dread having to do "perfect code" in the first try. I keep trying to push this idea (inspired by Mythical-Man-Month) here in HN that a perfect team would have people "working fast and breaking things" with people working behind them that love refactoring everything cleaning it up.

skinkestek 6y ago

> Have you ever thought about them and gave them time/money for their suffering? No, you only cared them inso far as they can cook for you. This is how others saw you. Well, actually (and I'm deliberately using my sock puppet account to say this as this is one of the things one should just do and not brag about): For some of us, many of us, but not most of us I'm afraid, we buy stuff not necessarily because we need it or even want it but partially because of who is selling it. Every time the kids come to sell the newspaper on the weekend I buy it, read two pages that I coild have read online and leave it on the table in case my wife wants to read it. She doesn't so it ends in trash. Meanwhile I've been part of teaching one kid the value of honest work. My brother-in-law paid for his first Mac using money he earned from selling newspapers in the weekends. He is an amazing producer now and has been working both as a singke man production team with a local TV station where he lives, at international conferences and sometimes with at least one if not two national TV stations. Maybe I'm giving another brilliant kid a chance now? Based on the fact that they show up every weekend there might be some potential :-) This could have been a Scandinavian thing, but I know kt exists in the US too. I think I heard about it in an audio book named something along the lines of "400 things cops know" or something: <something along the lines of> > As a police officer if you walk by a lemonade stand or (something else I can't remember) you should buy! Even if you aren't thirsty! Personally, even as a grown up I've had customers telling me in no uncertain terms to raise my prices, and I've heard my boss (or technically, the operations manager, two steps above my boss) telling me again to tell a vendor from a less fortunate country that the contract was fine but the operations manager refused to pay the ridiculously low price they quoted.

joekrill 6y ago

This is such a defeatist attitude and, I think, completely unnecessary. And saying it as fact sort of perpetuates the whole situation. It doesn't have to be this way. But most people allow it to be this way. > Your co-workers may be amazing, but they were never your friends. Anecdotally, I've met some of my best friends by working with them. I have many friends that I haven't met through work, but when you spend the bulk of your day with people you form bonds - and friendships - with them. It's sort of human nature. > There's what you love, and there's what you do. It's best to keep some distance: because no one cares about what you love. What you love and what you do don't _have_ to be different. And some people _do_ care about what you love. Most don't, sure. And at most larger companies you _are_ just a cog in the wheel. But that doesn't mean folks shouldn't strive to find meaningful work that they love to do. It may not pay as well monetarily, but it pays in other ways. > No, you only cared them inso far as they can cook for you. This is how others saw you. I don't seek out the immigrant family, but I'm friendly and cordial with them. I chat with them and treat them as equals. I pay them fairly for what they provide me. I don't try to squeeze every last cent out of them or negotiate my meal from them, or make them feel like less of a person. And in return they provide the same. Maybe I'm naive, sure. But if so, at least I'm not an asshole. > Big companies, and indeed most big institutions is made by a silent majority of the defeated. This is mostly true. I agree. It's unfortunate. But big institutions aren't the only options. > You have to look elsewhere. You don't have to. You can, and in some cases you should. But it's not the only option. There ARE people who aren't wholly obsessed with making money at all costs. Unfortunately, in the US at least, a lot of people don't have that attitude and _are_ obsessed with making money at all costs. And our society (at least in the US) has been built in ways that praise that sort of attitude. But there are plenty of people who aren't like that. It's hard to find them sometimes, depending on what sort of circles you run in and the sort of people you surround yourself with - but they are out there.

camelite 6y ago

"the silent majority of the defeated" That's great writing.

juzerali 6y ago

In those stern points, there is some farm good existential advice.

tripzilch 6y ago

> There's what you love, and there's what you do. It's best to keep some distance: because no one cares about what you love. Isn't that cultural? Cause I find I care a lot more about what people love than what they "do". Ask someone what they do [for a living], and you say "oh that's cool" and conversation is at a standstill again. Ask someone what they love and you'll get a whole different kind of conversation.