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I was curious how the 13 inch was priced so I compared it to a new Dell XPS 13. Dell has a better processor (maybe, [2]) , but I couldn't find the option to upg

I was curious how the 13 inch was priced so I compared it to a new Dell XPS 13. Dell has a better processor (maybe, [2]) , but I couldn't find the option to upgrade the Dell to 4TB internal SSD, so I compared both with the 2 TB option. Ram is the same at 32GB. Dell came out to $2399[0] USD and Apple came out to $2999[1] USD. Dell Pros: * Row of function buttons (I've used BTT to customize my touch-bar to the point where it's a little bit of a tossup, but years of muscle memory still haunt me) * Better processor (maybe [2]) * Cheaper * MicroSD reader Apple Pros: * Better Trackpad * More Ports (Upgraded Dell only has 2 USB-C, while Upgraded MBP has 4) * Better hardware support * Better resale value Objectively, seems to me that list used to be a lot longer on the Apple side. IMHO I think the Touch Bar disappointment is probably over dramatized by developers, it's not too bad a couple years in and BTT has made it so I can run whatever macros I want in any application, so overall tossup in my mind. I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision. Also, I'm happy with the new Magic Keyboard. I have the 16 inch MBP right now, and I will say that even though I prefer the travel of the '12-'15 era keyboards, this typing experience is far superior than the faulty butterfly keys. I'm hoping given how they've walked the keyboard back, and how the new Mac Pro is actually a Pro machine that they're headed back in the right direction (post Jony Ive). A $600 price difference for this machine is probably worth it in my mind, just given my experience with resale value, longevity and lack of competitors, but there's a lot of room improvement. [0] https://imgur.com/a/p6RA9HF https://imgur.com/a/p6RA9HF [1] https://imgur.com/a/f6ii7h9 https://imgur.com/a/f6ii7h9 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23067768 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23067768

t3rabytes 6y ago
I think "better processor" can only fall into the Dell camp if it's confirmed that they're running it at a 25W TDP all-the-time and not the default 15W, or else Apple's chip choices will likely win because they can consume more power (but I don't know the actual model #s Apple is using).
- alexggordon 6y ago
  Yeah, that's the stupid part about tech specs honestly--so many hidden caveats--I always thought it was interesting that Apple benchmarks usually outperform competitors when comparing similar hardware, usually to things like this. Mostly annoyed now, because you are correct, it's running at 15W[0][1]. [0] https://imgur.com/a/ry5eAIy https://imgur.com/a/ry5eAIy [1] source for [0] (pg 11) https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/xps-13-7390-2-in-1-laptop_setup-guide_en-us.pdf https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/xps-13-7390-2-in-1-laptop_se...
jclardy 6y ago
I've moved to a 16" as well, the touchbar is fine IMO. The biggest issue before this update was just removing the escape key. I've mostly adjusted to switching caps lock to escape now because of it. My biggest disappointment in this 13" upgrade is that it is still 13 inch. The display quality has increased over the years, but resolution/size has stayed the same since 2012. That and the continued use of the same 720P webcam. Hopefully we get a FaceID enabled mac in 2021 where they put in a decent camera.
- CoolGuySteve 6y ago
  Yeah I noticed this too. In PC land, most ultrabooks have thinner bezels so this form factor would either have a 14” display or it would have a 13” display in the same footprint as the old 12” MacBook. My $800 13” HP Envy for example only has about 2mm of bezels on its 4k display. Apple is falling behind here which is strange considering how much they fetishize thinness.
pram 6y ago
Nice comparison but from personal experience I'd count the 'Killer' WiFi/BT as a giant negative on the XPS. I've had no shortage of issues with it on Linux and Windows.
- SamuelAdams 6y ago
  That's really interesting. I've had a Killer wifi module in a Razer Blade Stealth running Debian 10 for about a year and I have never had any issues at all.
- mekster 6y ago
  Bluetooth may have hit the right spot for demand but whoever came up with the spec wasn't smart enough to get it below thousands of pages for its spec and now every manufacturer has random quality of Bluetooth drivers. Bluetooth needs s replacement but it's kind of too late.
SamuelAdams 6y ago
I'm curious if they still have the high CPU issues when charging the device on the left. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22957573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22957573 [2]: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find-cause-of-high-kernel-task-cpu-usage/363933#363933 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...
ericcholis 6y ago
I recently switched from an Air to an XPS 15 9570. I was very excited, it seemed to have all the best qualities of a MacBook, minus the shotty keyboard, and superior performance per dollar (at the time). Things went downhill rather quickly. I've had massive cooling issues, I've removed and replaced the thermal paste. I've been forced to operate the laptop on the "Cool" thermal setting; downgrading the performance of the processor. Now, the two of the screws in palm rest, which hold the screen in place, have sheered right off. Doing some digging, this was commonplace with this particular model. I'm not doing anything particularly intense either. Docker with a few containers running a dev website. I can't speak for the latest XPS 15 7590 build quality however.
- teddyuk 6y ago
  I will never buy a dell again, had an XPS 9550 (£2.7k 32gb ram, top of the range) - they had a chip in to detect a valid dell power adapter and that went so they wanted over 600 to replace the motherboard. I bought a macbook and use the dell charger (udb-c) to charge my macbook.
  - FireBeyond 6y ago
    My step-daughter spilled water on her MBA. It would no longer charge. It would run connected to AC, and the battery health was fine, but the "charging circuit" needed replaced, according to diagnostics. Okay, I thought. $200, maybe $300, including parts and labor. Not quite. They wanted $879. "Maybe we should look at getting you into a new Macbook instead?" No thanks. It was almost never used unplugged anyway.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Sounds like they needed to replace the whole motherboard.
  - ac29 6y ago
    My 9370 is definitely just plain USB-PD, doesnt require a Dell charger. I can charge it with a inexpensive Anker charger. 600 is pricey for a mainboard replacement, but none of the other vendors are much better, including Apple. I previously had a Thinkpad that died shortly out of warranty, and they actually wanted more to fix it than I paid for it new.
jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
> and how the new Mac Pro is actually a Pro machine that they're headed back in the right direction (post Jony Ive). Hardly, considering the lack of professional tools support outside Hollywood movie makers.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  "Hollywood movie makers" and specifically VFX artists have long moved to linux/windows workstations as the performance on mac side has stagnated until the recent release of the Mac Pro but it was too little too late. Writers and sound engineers are still firmly in the Mac camp though due to their tools being mac exclusives.
abtinf 6y ago
The Apple list is shorter because you ignored nearly all of the differentiating features enabled by the Apple ecosystem. You also ignored many of the non-obvious details of the Mac hardware.
- brianwawok 6y ago
  Depends on use cases. We switch between the xps-13 and starting now this at work. We use 0 apple specific apps. We write python and Vue.js using pycharm. So from a business use case, do you want windows, Linux, or Mac hot keys? Python and everything runs everywhere. (Biggest problem is Windows Home doesn’t run Docker as well, but it can be worked around)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- pfranz 6y ago
  I did a similar comparison a few years ago and had a very similar list and came to the same conclusion (about $500 more for the Apple, but it was probably worth it in known reliability and resale). The only thing I would have added was that Apple's camera quality hasn't improved in 10+ years, which sucks if you're working remote (hopefully now everyone notices this). A lot of the hardware things I liked about Mac laptops got stripped off (MagSafe, charging indicator, SD card slot). I imagine everything else is up to personal workflow. My wife was looking at another Mac laptop because she wanted to transition GarageBand projects from her iPad. Since, in practice, the files often crash when doing this and she has to export/import that workflow is useless and she's looking at a Windows laptop. I'd be curious what kind of things you would put on your list.
  - abtinf 6y ago
    I’ll not that I use windows, Mac, and Linux (arch and Ubuntu) all equally effectively. In no particular order, here are some things about macs that are often missed: FaceTime, iPhone, sms/iMessage integration that works even when phone is not nearby. T2 chip/Secure Enclave. Easier to use full disk encryption. Note’s built in capability to encrypt specific notes with a private, unrecoverable password. Faster system software updates. Most apps shipping as DMG rather than installer packages, which allows me to install them without granting admin rights. Family members who have macs ask me for help far less than those with windows. The trackpad is vastly superior. I actually prefer thinkpad-style trackpoints, but thinkpads aren’t what they used to be. The Mac trackpad feels good to touch, the taptic full-pad pseudo-clicking is superior to physical button presses, and the multi-pressure level support is occasionally useful. The gestures work well and feel natural. Find my Mac/iPod/iPhone is implemented in a privacy preserving method. It’s also super useful to be able to simply say to my laptop “hey Siri, where is my phone?” to have it trigger the audio beacon. The speakers on the new 16” MBP are excellent. I use my headphones much less now. I love the look of Macbook monitors more than most pc laptop monitors. Of course, some pc laptops have comparable or exactly the same panel, but the price goes up pretty fast. Photos is an imperfect replacement for Picasa (RIP). However it has some features my family loves, like automatically figuring out groups of related events and generating movies from photos of family trips, then surprising me with a phone notification. Many of the built in apps feature end-to-end encryption. I feel like windows 10 is always spying on me. I have to spend hours configuring a fresh windows install to turn off all the garbage. Not signing into a Microsoft account with windows 10 causes all kinds of limitations, like not being able use fingerprint readers. The microphone array on the new MBP works very well such a shame it wasn’t paired with a better camera. Access to a terminal. I spend most of my time in vim. WSL just isn’t comparable (yet) in terms of integration and ease of use. There are also things that are much worse about macs, but that aren’t dealbreakers for me: Horrible software quality, going back decades, in ways that really matter. The only times I’ve ever lost data due to software is when OSX corrupted a drive. Backups are vital, and they must be stored on non-Apple devices/services. This is a hidden cost no one ever talks about, even though the internet is rife with Mac/time machine data loss anecdotes. Extremely uncomfortable sharp edges. Safari is so close to being useful, but falls short. I configure it to wipe out everything on close, and use it as a sort of super-private-mode browser. QuickTime is garbage. Application file associations are super finicky. There is no built in method to set the screen to native resolution, needlessly inflicting blurry screens. Apple might blow it again with the hardware for years, meaning no upgrade path. The machines are under-ventilated, under-powered, under-rammed. Lack of games support. Horrible battery life if you do anything intensive. Factorio burns through a full battery in about 90 minutes. I wish they would make a “kids edition” laptop that is cheaper, made of plastic for dent-resistance, and can be locked down in the same way as iOS. I wish it had a built in hyper visor or allowed me to run apps in something like sandboxie. I wish I could change the the window manager (I happily used Arch for years and fell in love with the tiling window manager spectrwm). The lack of a 4K screen on the MBP makes me sad. I had a thinkpad p1 with a 4K screen and it was stunning (but a power hog).
ubercow13 6y ago
I have an older XPS 13 with a glass screen (same design but previous generation) and one big annoyance is that every time you open the laptop, the screen will have grease marks across the centre where the keys have touched the glass while closed.
- quicklime 6y ago
  FWIW, this has been a problem on all the laptops I've ever owned, including 4 different MacBooks built between 2011-2019, and a Chromebook Pixel.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    And eventually the marks don't wipe off, they remove whatever coating is on the screen. I've had this happen on pretty much every MBP I've ever owned.
    - jen20 6y ago
      I've had this happen once, and the Apple store replaced the screen no questions asked. I usually use a microfibre cloth between the screen and the keyboard though. It's a problem with all (modern) laptops from what I can tell - my Thinkpad T480s suffers from it, though my X220 does not.
- ascagnel_ 6y ago
  Get a sheet of microfiber cloth, cut it to your screen size, and place it over the keyboard/trackpad before closing your laptop.
  - ubercow13 6y ago
    Sure, or wiping it off before use with my shirt works as well! It's still a bit annoying
  - qubex 6y ago
    If you’re into that kind of thing, RadTech makes microfleece screen protectors and sleeves that are already sized appropriately for various Apple products. https://www.radtech.com/products/screensavrz-macbook-pro-keyboard-cover https://www.radtech.com/products/screensavrz-macbook-pro-key...
infecto 6y ago
I cannot agree more. At least for myself i would add MacOS as a huge plus over any other laptop. I know many people work in Linux but I just for the life of me cannot make it as comfortable as MacOS.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  The integration with iOS/iMessages/keychain/homekit /FaceTime is extremely convenient for me. I don't mind paying extra for it, and I like that they have stores near me.
  - alexggordon 6y ago
    I would definitely agree with that. Having bought into the Apple ecosystem brings software features that you can't get elsewhere.
- ravenstine 6y ago
  I really like Linux, but switched to macOS years ago because the quality of most Linux software outside of the GNU ecosystem is very unpredictable and commonly faulty. Companies seem to hate supporting Linux, and I've had enough distro updates break my OS in the past that eventually I just got beaten down. MacOS gives me a Unix shell, a consistent UI, and I've never had a system update lead to a black screen, or a new UI that I hate, or half my installed software being broken. Let's not even get started on the support for most Linux distros. Even Ubuntu has what I would consider to be dreadful support, unless maybe you're a corporate client of theirs. Linux is good if you can configure it for a very specific purpose, like a server, or a graphics workstation, or even web development. For general purpose, its warts grow the more you use it. Hopefully someone has a dangerous looking Bash one-liner that will solve all your problems.
- fartcannon 6y ago
  The thing I dont understand about OSX is the Finder situation. It's just awful. Installation is awful, finding applications is awful, navigating to the system folders is awful. It's very much like Windows and it's pretending Desktop is the root folder and then hiding everything behind databases of My Documents. Dont make me jump through hoops to find computery stuff.
hu3 6y ago
I would add form factor in the comparison. Dell XPS 13 is smaller.
latexr 6y ago
> I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision. As someone who’s never had a tripping accident with a magsafe charger but has had to replace multiple damaged chargers despite being careful, I welcome that change. Spending 90€ because Apple doesn’t know how (or doesn’t care) to make cables with a modicum of durability isn’t fun. With USB-C, presumably (I don’t own one of these) I could get better cables or replace them cheaper if they got frayed. I was also excited for the possibility of being able to charge on either side, until I learned that comes at a cost: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find-cause-of-high-kernel-task-cpu-usage/363933#363933 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...
- jandrese 6y ago
  Replacing the cable is a lot easier than replacing a damaged port. I don't have enough experience with USB-C devices to know but micro USB ports ended up being too fragile if you have toddlers.
  - latexr 6y ago
    > Replacing the cable is a lot easier than replacing a damaged port. If you’ve ever had an accident with it, which I never had. I don’t doubt that removing magsafe is a loss in the aggregate; I’ve only mentioned the alternative is likely to be better for me. A better option still would be if they made durable magsafe cables. But they don’t, so here we are.
    - marcus_holmes 6y ago
      It's one of those things that doesn't matter to you, until it really really does. You only need one accident to make it completely worth it
      - kalleboo 6y ago
        If that's something you're worried about, there are USB-C magnet attachments you can buy. If it's something you don't worry about, now you have way more options for chargers and cables.
nightski 6y ago
As a long time PC user I'd say the Razer Blade series of laptops are far closer to Macbook replacements than Dell's machines. Plus you get a nice discrete GPU to boot. I've been using my 15" blade for several years now - and they are even better now.
- rspicer 6y ago
  As a long-time Apple user who switched to Windows/Linux after Apple decided to ditch discrete GPUs and open standards for graphics, 100% this. Razer Blades are the spiritual successors to the pre-unibody Macbooks. That said, I've had terrible luck with Razer batteries, and their only warranty replacement option involves a multi-week turnaround. It's a good thing I'm pretty handy and replacements can be had on the usual sources.
- acolumb 6y ago
  My friend had a Blade back in 2017 -- had to replace the charger 5 (!) times until he downgraded to a chromebook.
tw04 6y ago
After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. I love touch ID, but the bar needs to go. USB-C was all about standardizing. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, I did love magsafe, but I also love that in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all. And I'll be able to charge my headphones/laptop/phone/random device with a usb-c cable instead of needing 8 of them.
- alexggordon 6y ago
  The best way I can sell Thunderbolt 3/USB-C to myself is that at Apple's size, they need to be able to sell (to consumers, courts, governments) that they aren't being anti-competitive, so by switching to designs that are open and standardized (Thunderbolt 3 is a spec, not a patent) they can better sell their market dominance as not driven by patents and lawyers.
  - tw04 6y ago
    I personally wish Apple would make something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Charge/dp/B07MMKZ8XD/ https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Char... Before any of you see that and go "awesome, exactly what I was looking for!" - I've had several coworkers try various models of those adapters and all have told me they universally suck. Don't waste your money. I trust Apple could do it with quality - frankly I'd be willing to spend $50+ for a reliable version of that.
    - derekp7 6y ago
      I've got another trick to use in place of a Magsafe type cable. Get a cable that is a few feet longer than you need, and attach a couple magnets a few feet apart on the cable. Then click the magnets together. Now you have a cable with a loop that is held closed by the magnets. If someone trips over the cable, the magnets come apart and pull out slack from that loop, instead of pulling the cord on the back of the laptop. Not quite as good as having the cord detach, but it still helps in the majority of minor trip-induced cord pulls (depending on how much clack in the cable you leave bundled between the two magnets).
cwhiz 6y ago
I had a XPS13 a couple of years ago and the USB-C port was not Thunderbolt 3. The new 13” MBP has four TB3 ports which is a pretty big deal to me.
wslh 6y ago
You forgot that the Dell XPS 13 also has a touch screen... and there is a 2-1 model with a tablet mode and an (awful) pen.
- alexggordon 6y ago
  Given my experience with non MS Surface touch screens, I'm not really sure if I consider that a strong pro--if I were writing the sales pitch for the laptop yeah, it's a pro, but in terms of day to day use, I'm not sure how much I'm looking for a touchscreen on a laptop. Regardless though, the gesture support on MacOS touch-pads would probably cancel it out as anything I'd probably do with the touchscreen frequently could be supported through a gesture.
  - wslh 6y ago
    Touch screens are useful as a shortcut to mouse or gesture movements.
boromi 6y ago
Have you ever purchased a Dell ? Well I just did (Dell XPS 13 2-in-1) last month and let me tell how you how horrible the driver and support has been. I really wish I could chuck this brand new 1400$ device out the Window for days of troubleshooting I've got through. I deeply regret it and wish I purchased a Surface device instead (note I'm not an Apple user) For the price premium and judging by the quality of the drivers that Apple produces, I WOULD MUCH RATHER PAY THE PREMIUM than struggle with Dell.
- lostmsu 6y ago
  What kind of driver issues did you get?
  - boromi 6y ago
    Bluetooth and Sound. Take a look at the XPS forums, there's more than a dozen posts on each topic. Dell engineers haven't pushed a fix in over a month after delivering faulty BIOS drivers.
  - boromi 6y ago
    I tried to return the POS but Dell wont take it back since I was a few days past their 30 day return policy. Let's not forget I had to deal with a minor fallout due to the pandemic, but their "customer service" department doesn't care about personal issues and difficulties customers have had during the last month and only profit and sales. I'm never buying Dell
    - mekster 6y ago
      There's a reason Dell produces stuff cheaply.
    - RandomBacon 6y ago
      Did you purchase it with a credit card that offers longer return periods on your purchases?
- rezeroed 6y ago
CydeWeys 6y ago
It's pretty disappointing how few ports the XPS 13 has. Only two data ports (both USB-C), but it's really only gonna one because you're gonna be using the other one for charging all the time. And I use hardware security keys for everything so I always have one plugged into my laptop, so if have zero ports free and would need to attach a USB-C hub to do anything else. At least there's wireless keyboard and mice ... Any idea on battery life comparisons between the two? I'm not an Apple fan by any stretch, and don't have any Apple hardware at all except MacBooks, but honestly, the Mac here might be worth the extra money for the ports, build quality, and longevity. My current laptop is a 2013 top of the line MacBook Pro 15" that is still chugging along fine without any problems.
criddell 6y ago
One reason I'll recommend an Apple product over any PC to friends is the Apple Store. Aside from being able to see and play with the hardware, Apple's support experience is better than any PC maker's. Why doesn't Dell open a store in every neighborhood that has an Apple store? They should be able to match the Apple consumer experience, but more importantly (to Dell), they could run business support operations from those stores. I'd be a lot more likely to buy the XPS machine you mentioned if I could take it someplace when the coil whine becomes apparent.
- atoav 6y ago
  5 years ago I destroyed my dells screen, thrre was someone driving to my place the same day and he replaced the screen on site and I could work on. Where would apple ever do this?
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    This is what a lot of people don't know. If you pay for premium support from Dell, it is significantly better than the support experience with Apple. No having to check for appointment slots each day, hoping to get one two weeks out. No having to arrive at the store at the start of the day, get in the same-day queue, and hope to get seen for a 15 min checkup within 4 hours, and then lose your machine for days, if not weeks, while the repairs are done off site. Dell premium consumer (consumer, not talking about their business support options here) support gets you next day engineer to your home, with replacement parts on hand to repair your fault in your home. Three unsuccessful repairs on the same component results in a total replacement, usually with an upgrade.
    - criddell 6y ago
      If an Apple user is having trouble setting up Time Machine, they can book a slot at the store to have somebody help them configure that. Is Dell going to send somebody to my parents home to help them with that?
      - 6y ago
fluffything 6y ago
~~2399$~~ 2999$ (EDIT: see replies) in the US, and.... 3924$ for the same model if you buy it in Europe (3629 EUR). That's a bit outrageous. I still have a Macbook Air 2013, and have been looking for an upgrade for like 5 years, but I was not willing to pay 4k for a laptop with a worse keyboard, a worse power plug, an OS that in 2020 still doesn't have any kind of windows tiling capabilities and quite poor virtual desktops support, a useless touchbar, no wifi6, and the worst webcam ever made. Selling it at twice the price that in the US doesn't help. I can pay for a plane ticket, and still get it cheaper there. Also, for a company that markets their laptops as having great displays, its quite ironic that their OS still doesn't support any kind of window tiling to use them efficiently in 2020. The display isn't micro-LED either, so it is instantaneously outdated, and well... the retina display doesn't help you see your macbook-using coworkers any better because their webcams have a resolution of 1x1 pixels.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  Sounds like a good business opportunity. What's stopping me from buying them all up at the Apple store and selling them to overseas customers?
  - ekvilibrist 6y ago
    Different keyboards for starters?
    - fluffything 6y ago
      American layout actually adds value to the laptop in Europe. You can change the layout in the apple store when buying it here, but that adds 4 weeks to the delivery time..
    - IAmEveryone 6y ago
      in Europe, I can chose whatever keyboard I want, and I would think it's the same for the US store. I've configure both MacBooks I bought in the last decade with English keyboards because it's the only layout where {} and [] don't seem like a cruel joke by language designers.
OJFord 6y ago
> Objectively, seems to me that list used to be a lot longer on the Apple side Maybe, but I think the price gap used to be a lot longer too? (As in, Apple's dragged it up (or perhaps arguably dragged up build quality or whatever that's impacted price) not vice versa.)
sparkling 6y ago
Apple Pros: * macOS
- lifeAsNerd 6y ago
  Debatable. Personally this is a con.
  - mekster 6y ago
    Pro is the quality of third party apps. OS is irrelevant as long as the hardware works.
virvar 6y ago
I think the resale value is Apples real strength. When I upgraded my 2016 13” mbp to the new airbook, Apple offered 60-70% of the airbook cost in return for the mbp. Because tech-wise there are just so many hood options. I ended up selling it to a local third party reseller that I’ve used in the past for 80% of the cost of the air. I can’t remember the original price for the mbp, but it was around what the air cost me. Compare that to the surface pro my wife has, which essentially lost all its value the moment she walked out the store. It’s an excellent machine by all means, and Linux subsystem is great, but it’s not actually cheaper than a Mac when you factor in the resale value. I do live in Denmark, and things may be different elsewhere, but the only hardware that has any resale value around here is Apple.
extr 6y ago
I have the latest Dell model (XPS 13 9300), and I'm left with a bit of chagrin as I probably would have looked into this new 13" MBP instead had it been available a few months ago, but overall I've been happy with my purchase. I'm not really "in" the Apple ecosystem so I'm probably a bit biased though. A few other Dell Pros: * 16:10 aspect ratio. The 4K touchscreen in general is fantastic, nearly borderless and really stunning in person. Dell has honed in on some great industrial design for the XPS 13 line. The laptop is incredibly compact for the feature set and screen size. * Keyboard is fantastic. Trackpad is great, but not quite Mac level. They have been improving this considerably over the years and this latest iteration is the best yet. * Linux support, even though I ended up not using it due to "okay" HiDPI support. * i7, FWIW. Not sure the thermals really allow you to take advantage of full perf gains from the better processor. * Another Dell Pro which has made me feel better about the purchase has been the free year of Next Day On-Site ProSupport. My original lid had a mark on it and no shit they scheduled a technician to come to my apartment and replace it the next day. Macs obviously have the advantage of Apple stores but in this case I was really happy with the level of CS Dell was able to provide. Dell Cons: * I was previously an (Arch) Linux user and have given Windows 10 a shot this time around, mostly because I don't have the time to be fiddling with config files these days. And while Windows does "just work", some things are a little janky still. From what I've heard of MacOS these days, things are not necessarily perfect there either, so maybe a toss-up. I will say Windows being so linux-friendly with WSL has made the transition much easier. * Two ports has been not really a huge issue. I find that either I'm docked, in which case I have a whole other set of ports to use, or I'm not really plugging in more than two USB C accessories at the same time.
- duxup 6y ago
  That new aspect ratio has me desperately wanting to upgrade. Well that and I have xps 15 and that was fine when I took a class a year or two ago but I find it a bit bigger than I like for laying about on the couch and etc.
- ksec 6y ago
  > 16:10 aspect ratio..... MacBook ( Pro, Air or just MacBook ) has always been using 16:10 ratio. 16:10 on Dell is something new in the PC space that everyone is making a big fuss about it. Although I hope this change will finally run across the industry so we are back to 16:10 instead of stupid video consumption orientated 16:9 Ratio.
nojito 6y ago
The only Dells that are comparable to the Macbook Pro line are the 7000 series Latitudes. The build quality of the XPS line is just not up to snuff.
soygul 6y ago
* Better Trackpad That is an understatement.
cactus2093 6y ago
Genuinely curious, have you had your MacBook Pro knocked over from the power cord since switching away from MagSafe? Lots of people complain about missing MagSafe but I’ve never seen or heard of this actually happening. I’m sure it has happened but it just doesn’t seem like a big problem. For me, just in the past month I’ve had the usb charger yanked out by the cord multiple times by people and pets tripping over it while working from home, but the laptop is heavy enough that it doesn’t budge and the cable comes out cleanly. The benefit of having a standard port now, being able to get monitor, power, and usb connected through one cable, or being able to use the usb-c charger to charge other devices when traveling, is well worth the change IMO. I also used to get little metal specks stuck in the MagSafe port, and then realize the laptop hasn’t been charging all day and have to clear it out and make sure the contacts were connected securely. I wasn’t a big fan of MagSafe at all.
- mdrachuk 6y ago
  My dog did it on several occasions.
- wlll 6y ago
  The very first day I had my first USB-C mac i had an incident with my standing desk that Magsafe would have saved. These days I tend to use my laptop at my desk with external monitors, but the thing that worries me the most when I'm somewhere else is the yanking of the cable weakening the and/or reducing the reliability. I had to re-solder the power adaptor on an old Acer a few times, I don't think I've got the parts or skills (or time) to do that on a few year old Mac.
  - ProZsolt 6y ago
    The good thing about USB-C chargers, if you break the cable you can just buy a new one. No soldering necessary. I chew through a lot of MagSafe charges in the past few years. I fixed most of them, but you can't disassemble them without damaging it. EDIT: If you talking about the connector inside your laptop, that is a different story.
    - 6y ago
qubex 6y ago
It really stuns me how “MacOS” doesn’t appear anywhere in the Pros (or the Cons). That’s literally the main discriminant between choosing an Apple machine over any other brand, and there’s no mention of it. By missing that main difference the comparison is reduced to pure comparison of commodities, and of course the result is that the Apple machine is ‘unjustifiably’ more expensive. The Apple ecosystem is literally why people buy Apple machines rather than any other brand. I’m also mystified nobody else brought this up.
- philwelch 6y ago
  At this point macOS is just a different list of pros and cons all by itself.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Often a different list for each person.
  - fredguth 6y ago
    For me it is still the best OS experience by far.
- everdrive 6y ago
  MacOS has really stagnated over the years. I first started using it back in 2004, where its main competitor was pre-SP2 Windows XP. At that time you could really call MacOS advanced. At this point, it's sort of a wash. Windows does things better, Mac does other things better, and it mostly comes down to preference. The old argument about security is mostly a wash now as well. (whereas with pre-SP2 Windows XP vs. OSX 10.4, you could legitimately claim that OSX was more secure.)
  - mekster 6y ago
    Back then, MacOS X didn't have enough third party apps to replace Windows workflow but the OS kept advancing on every release. Now we have better third party apps on macOS than Windows but OS stopped advancing but who cares about OS anymore? It's all about apps nowadays.
mr_custard 6y ago
Useful figures, so thanks for providing those. It's been a few months since I last looked into the latest prices. I agree with you that it's still worth it. However, I feel that without comparing the OS and tight OS integration, this doesn't represent one of the most important aspects of a comparison between the two, when considering a purchase. I go through this same loop every time I buy a new machine... yes, usually it's "no more Apple for me!" especially when I do the price comparison. So I waver for a couple of weeks whilst I research the latest hardware and Linux distros. But then I end up buying an Apple machine. It's been the same story for me for the last 17 years. There's plenty of people like me out there that definitely don't want to use Windows, and that want a Unix that gets out of the way. I love Linux, especially on the server, but it's generally too much hassle on a laptop and so I always gravitate back to macos. If the $600 is an Apple tax for that, then I will gladly continue to pay it. Over the 3 years lifetime of a developer machine (or more!), my time is definitely worth more than $600 compared with constantly fiddling with Linux kernal modules and other hardware support issues. I just want to get some work done without interruptions. Definitely would love the exact same machine without the TouchBar, though. Perhaps that would shave off $100?
- lwh 6y ago
  Dell has supported Linux officially on the XPS 13 variants since 2012. https://bartongeorge.io/2020/01/01/introducing-the-2020-xps-13-developer-edition-this-one-goes-to-32/ https://bartongeorge.io/2020/01/01/introducing-the-2020-xps-...
  - mr_custard 6y ago
    Thanks. I'm am aware of this. I research this all the time, and regularly come away disappointed. I don't know if I verbalised clearly enough, but I have actively wanted good options for years, and I'm always open to whatever alternatives are current at the time of purchase. Seriously, I'm in the market for a new laptop and there are still too many concerns relating to support for these devices... not just Dell but usually for whatever manufacturer I'm looking at. Once you start reading about people's experiences there are always issues - many of which have been discussed to death on HN. Just because Dell claim that Linux is officially supported does not mean that it will be a smooth ride. I don't think that has changed much at all over the last few years? But perhaps this year is different. Do you own this though? If you're using this new XPS model without power consumption issues, excellent wifi (wifi chips issues seem to always be the main downer), good mousepad behaviour? Perhaps it's finally not a problem? I will gladly lap up any positive news that you can give on this front.
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
> I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision. With any luck the mag-safe connector will be back in a couple of years. Of course Apple will call it "new".
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  If you care about it, just buy a magnetic USB-C dongle: https://www.amazon.com/usb-c-magsafe/s?k=usb+c+magsafe https://www.amazon.com/usb-c-magsafe/s?k=usb+c+magsafe Returning to magsafe would be a downgrade when you can just magsafe-ify any of the ports yourself with a cheap adapter.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    Not an entirely bad idea, however I t should be obvious that having an adapter hanging out the side of ya laptop is less than ideal.
    - hombre_fatal 6y ago
      Well, I think it's a superior solution to having a special magsafe port when you can have more USB-C ports with the option to add magsafe to them.
geophile 6y ago
Apple has lost me as a customer for their computers. The software has been getting flakier for years, the butterfly fiasco, and their inexplicable decision to continue shipping laptops missing 15% of the keyboard. I'm on a System 76 Darter Pro now. Pop OS has been fantastic. Great specs for the money, and while it certainly isn't Mac-level hardware, it's fine. At this point, the Darter has a far superior keyboard, even comparing to the newest MBP keyboards. I still need a Mac for my music and photo collection, and to sync my phone. But since my 2015 MBP is dying, I'm in the market for a used Mac Mini.
- zeku 6y ago
  Apple still has me as a customer, when it comes to work solutions. I have to use windows at home for gaming, no way around it. MacOS vs Windows 10 is a MUCH lesser difference than MacOS vs Windows 8 and below. If Apple doesn't put more focus into their computers over the next 5 years the tide may truly turn. Also before someone mentions Linux, I really love linux. I used linux out of NEED in college but I find myself maintaining it too much for it to be worth it vs MacOS when it comes to work. I have access to linux servers for running most of my code anyway so perhaps I'm a special user.
- vaxman 6y ago
  Has to be fanless and new SSD or HDD, or you are buying trouble just to avoid setting up Plex or something.
lobotryas 6y ago
The other important differentiator is the OS. I can’t (reliably) get MacOS on a Dell laptop so my choice is clear: either keep using the MBP I have or upgrade. At this point I don’t want to go back and try re-learning Windows.
vmception 6y ago
The real news is that you can get 32gb RAM and 4TB SSD in a 13-inch form factor Sometimes its not really about the price, its about "can you?". I'm glad Apple (and Dell) is addressing the market, alongside the improvements in the technology in their supply chain. There have definitely been some years where I have been pretty sure something was possible but everyone was holding out for another year because a processor came out too late, or some totally antitrust violating agreement, or milking consumers, all while we just had to assume there were some quality control or battery life issue. I am glad to know this is going to be generally available.
fnord123 6y ago
The macbook still electrocutes you when it's plugged in since the grounding is all fucked up. This is still a problem: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3969131 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3969131 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-pro-giving-me-electric-shock.1625275/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-pro-giving-me-e... https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/10545/is-it-bad-that-my-macbook-air-is-passing-me-electricity https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/10545/is-it-bad-th...
- switch007 6y ago
  Every Apple device I've owned has done this (iPad, iPhone, MacBook) :/
  - BluePen7 6y ago
    According to the forum posts, it's happening to everyone who uses the default plug, the extension that comes with a 3 pin plug resolves the issue. I have one short and one long cable, and am only just now realizing the issue. I'd simply assumed the short one was a fake I'd gotten. Can't speak to why your iPhone and iPad do the same thing, I've experienced it when using sketchy cheap lightning cables or wall adapters (including ghost touching), but not when using better built stuff (like AmazonBasics or Anker).
    - vbezhenar 6y ago
      That's assuming that your house have grounded sockets. My house does not and most of old houses in my country are the same, only new houses have ground.
- gattilorenz 6y ago
  That's some... creative usage of the verb "electrocute", which implies death. That said, I did feel the electric current when the 2012MBP was not grounded, but the 2017 model does not have the same problem.
  - 6y ago
diffeomorphism 6y ago
Dell: * Much higher resolution screen (3840x2400 vs 2560x1600) * Smaller and lighter (not by much though) and thinner bezels * Better hardware support (apple hardware has bad support under anything but macOS and I can't think of any hardware which is supported under mac but not on windows).
- pfranz 6y ago
  > apple hardware has bad support under anything but macOS and I can't think of any hardware which is supported under mac but not on windows I had to read this a few times. You mean third-party hardware and peripherals, right? I first read it as running Windows on Mac hardware, which Bootcamp supports. Linux usually lags a few years and often isn't solid. Battery life usually isn't as good. Paradoxical to your peripheral experience, I often much prefer macOS' experience to Windows with things like mice and printers since they often use standard, builtin tools instead of requiring third-party drivers with terrible UIs. For most things in the past 10-15+ years they support both Mac/Windows. One pro Windows laptops usually have over Mac is the Mac webcams have the same quality from their laptops over a decade ago. Cameras are something Apple used to brag about (both including them standard and the quality of them).
aguyfromnb 6y ago
>IMHO I think the Touch Bar disappointment is probably over dramatized by developers, it's not too bad a couple years in The touch bar still sucks, but eventually all design decisions Apple makes are justified by users.
- lazerpants 6y ago
  They literally just changed the keyboard design because users hated it.
  - aeyes 6y ago
    They changed it because on 50% of all machines (stats from our office) the keyboard went bad within a year, causing massive warranty cost for Apple.
snug 6y ago
I haven't had a Dell in awhile, 4+ years, but I have to say, the Macs that I've had felt just as sturdy as the day I bought it. My personal MBP I got is from early 2017, and my new MBP I got for work less than a year ago feel exactly the same, besides one having stickers I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Every dell I've had starts creaking at the hinges after just a few uses. Doesn't feel as sturdy, the $600 difference is worth the longevity and integrity of the macbook hardware alone.
andy9775 6y ago
> A $600 price difference for this machine is probably worth it in my mind. Agreed. Recently bought the 16 inch MBP after considering Lenovo and Dell. Prices between the machines weren't that much different (Lenovo came to 7200 minus some discount to bring it down to MBP price). End of the day I didn't want to deal with Linux drivers (no M$ for me) and I wanted something that worked. Plus, the touchpad on an Apple device can't be beat. It's not a perfect machine, mainly Catalina issues I suspect, but worth it IMO.
- treve 6y ago
  The XPS13 optionally comes with Ubuntu preinstalled. Haven't had to fight drivers in a while (on my second XPS 13).
  - andy9775 6y ago
    ya, but limited hardware IIRC. Considered it.
spullara 6y ago
> Better Trackpad After using the Dell for a month and finally sending it back, I can tell you that this was the deal breaker for me.
twalla 6y ago
If Apple made a 13 inch MBP without touchbar but with 4 ports I’d buy 3 because I know they’d immediately discontinue or “improve” it.
- throwphoton 6y ago
  Apple should simply re-release the pre-touchbar 2013 Macbook Pro, with USB-C ports. "Peak MacBook Pro" was 2013 (once they fixed the screen-coating deterioration).
  - molszanski 6y ago
    Let's talk 2013 vs 2015 :D
- mekster 6y ago
  Back then, Apple hardware only differentiated in hard disk spaces for the different prices and provided equal experience to users and now their lineup is such a mess and if you want 4 ports, you have to take 512GB space which is typically way too big and no clear distinction between Air and Pro but more like Pro is Air + all sorts of random options. Sadly, Jobs' vision is fading out.
shrimpx 6y ago
The xps is a plastic laptop with a plastic hinged small trackpad. The mbp trackpad alone is worth the extra money. I keep a laptop for 4-5 years. It’s not worth interacting thousands of times a day with an outdated subpar input device to save $10 a month. I’ve been watching the xps closely and the internal stats are good but the “plastic laptop with a small hinged trackpad” aspect of it make it a no go for me at the price point.
- alexggordon 6y ago
  Per the specs on the dell website, it's a milled aluminum chassis. Guess that could technically mean there's plastic somewhere, but they seem to be selling the fact it's not plastic.
  - woah 6y ago
    Through some kind of engineering magic, they've been able to make it out of thin aluminum while still retaining the creaky plastic feeling Dell is known for.
  - shrimpx 6y ago
    The top shell and the bottom shell are thin aluminum but the rest of the laptop is plastic. The bottom assembly is a plastic body screwed into a thin aluminum shell. Unfortunately I don’t have a link but there are reviews on YouTube where people subject it to the “twist test” and the laptop body creaks and visibly twists under light manual force.
znpy 6y ago
the new macbook pro has 4 thunderbolt ports only if you go for the top-of-the-line model. anything "regular" has two ports like the dell xps 13. You also "forgot" to mention that the xps 13 is probably easier to fix if anything goes wrong. Regarding hardware support... what do you mean exactly? If it's warranty, dell is probably as good as apple.
ksec 6y ago
>I will say that even though I prefer the travel of the '12-'15 era keyboards, this typing experience is far superior than the faulty butterfly keys. I still dont like the new Magic Keyboard travel. It feels to me exactly the same as butterfly. The whole typing experience just sucks. But given a lot of people ( DHH ) are saying it feels the same as Magic Keyboard on the iMac ( Which I will probably never understand ), the likelihood of that ever coming back to the Mac is near Zero. May be even Magic Keyboard on iMac will one day be the same as well. I wonder if someone will make a plastic keyboard cover that adds back the few mm key travel, along with "artificial" buttons to cover up the Touch Bar. In case anyone ask why not the MacBook Air, it is because the CPU run up to 90C with passive cooling. I dont know how long will the product last under medium load usage.
soperj 6y ago
>* Better hardware support What are you basing that on?
diebeforei485 6y ago
This comparison is at the higher end, but I am curious about the $1799 version of the Macbook Pro - with the new 10th Gen processors, 16GB of RAM, and 512GB storage.
oneplane 6y ago
Depending on what your needs are, the TouchID and T2 might be pros (or cons). Same thing with macOS, but that might simply be a matter of 'need it' and 'do not need it' and isn't much of a gradient. If you need macOS, you'll buy a Mac and the whole comparison matters a whole lot less.
caycep 6y ago
I'd say - based on my experience w/ work-issued dell's, the Apple keyboard is better. Even the butterfly...the dell keys were prone to falling off (albeit I suppose you could repair them w/o replacing the entire chassis....) I hope the Mac screen is still better. We bought a couple of Thinkpad T490's on discount. The internals are fine, good processors, battery life, keyboard, but the trackpad sucks and the screen is noticeably still worse than my 2014 MacBook Pro...
Twirrim 6y ago
> I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision. I really dislike the mag-safe adapter on my 2015 Mac (the first Mac I've ever had). It often feels like you only have to sneeze in the direction of the connector and it pops right off. I get the problem they're trying to solve, I too don't want to go back to the old style of connector where you could accidentally rip it out of the motherboard. I just want something a little firmer than magsafe.
- pfranz 6y ago
  I'm guessing you have MagSafe2. I only had MagSafe1 laptops and thought they were great. I might be mistaken, but I thought I had heard of Apple tweaking the magnets on different models. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe#MagSafe_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe#MagSafe_2 I believe the Surface have their version of MagSafe and support charging via USB-C...I wish that was the direction Apple went with.
thoughtsimple 6y ago
I’m pretty sure Apple is using the latest 4-core 10th Gen CPUs. Unless the Dell is using a 6 core chip, it is unlikely that their CPU is better. The top end is the Core i7-1068NG7 and the i5 is the Core i5-1038NG7. They are both 28W parts with the highest end integrated GPU that Intel sells.
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
When I buy a Mac, I don't buy a computer. I buy an operating system. In my case, the Apple OS gives me exactly what I need. Apple holds all the cards, and are able to set the price. Wish it was lower, but I am glad the OS works as well as it does. The control that Apple has over both the hardware and software is key to that. For others, Windows is exactly what they need (I see this a lot with hardware hacker stuff. It's very hard to get Apple versions of a lot of the tools I need). They do have a lot more choices, but I prefer my experience. Well worth the difference in price, for me.
Thorentis 6y ago
Dell XPS + Linux Mint seems like it would be an incredible development machine. I used to love OS X because everything "just worked" and you still got a real bash environment. I think Linux has caught up in terms of UX. I installed Linux Mint on my desktop recently and Cinnamon is really nice. All the tools I need are there, and I had no drivers issues whatsoever. I see little reason to continue buying into the Apple ecosystem. I switched from iPhone to an S9+ a couple years back and plan to keep this phone for at least another few years unless it dies. I think in general people are getting sick of the upgrade cycle. Gadgets are getting good enough that they can last multiple release cycles. I think consumer electronics companies are going to need to find a way to evolve, or they really will be running into the classic "not enough consumers" problem.
woah 6y ago
I have an xps-13, and it has been pretty unreliable. The first one I got died mysteriously, luckily I was able to exchange it for a working one. After a couple years of occasional use, the screen died (my guess is it was probably just the cable). I still don't use it unless I need more processing power, preferring to use my 2016 Macbook 12" for everything other than compiling Rust code. The Macbook has held up great, and I even did the infamous glued in battery replacement myself. I will probably get a Macbook pro in the next few years instead of another non-mac computer.
Sangeppato 6y ago
I think that the MBP actually has the better CPU and the better thermals (the latest XPS is not that great in this regard). Other than that, I completely agree

t3rabytes 6y ago

I think "better processor" can only fall into the Dell camp if it's confirmed that they're running it at a 25W TDP all-the-time and not the default 15W, or else Apple's chip choices will likely win because they can consume more power (but I don't know the actual model #s Apple is using).

alexggordon 6y ago
Yeah, that's the stupid part about tech specs honestly--so many hidden caveats--I always thought it was interesting that Apple benchmarks usually outperform competitors when comparing similar hardware, usually to things like this. Mostly annoyed now, because you are correct, it's running at 15W[0][1]. [0] https://imgur.com/a/ry5eAIy https://imgur.com/a/ry5eAIy [1] source for [0] (pg 11) https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/xps-13-7390-2-in-1-laptop_setup-guide_en-us.pdf https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/xps-13-7390-2-in-1-laptop_se...

jclardy 6y ago

I've moved to a 16" as well, the touchbar is fine IMO. The biggest issue before this update was just removing the escape key. I've mostly adjusted to switching caps lock to escape now because of it. My biggest disappointment in this 13" upgrade is that it is still 13 inch. The display quality has increased over the years, but resolution/size has stayed the same since 2012. That and the continued use of the same 720P webcam. Hopefully we get a FaceID enabled mac in 2021 where they put in a decent camera.

CoolGuySteve 6y ago
Yeah I noticed this too. In PC land, most ultrabooks have thinner bezels so this form factor would either have a 14” display or it would have a 13” display in the same footprint as the old 12” MacBook. My $800 13” HP Envy for example only has about 2mm of bezels on its 4k display. Apple is falling behind here which is strange considering how much they fetishize thinness.

pram 6y ago

Nice comparison but from personal experience I'd count the 'Killer' WiFi/BT as a giant negative on the XPS. I've had no shortage of issues with it on Linux and Windows.

SamuelAdams 6y ago
That's really interesting. I've had a Killer wifi module in a Razer Blade Stealth running Debian 10 for about a year and I have never had any issues at all.
mekster 6y ago
Bluetooth may have hit the right spot for demand but whoever came up with the spec wasn't smart enough to get it below thousands of pages for its spec and now every manufacturer has random quality of Bluetooth drivers. Bluetooth needs s replacement but it's kind of too late.

SamuelAdams 6y ago

I'm curious if they still have the high CPU issues when charging the device on the left. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22957573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22957573 [2]: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find-cause-of-high-kernel-task-cpu-usage/363933#363933 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...

ericcholis 6y ago

I recently switched from an Air to an XPS 15 9570. I was very excited, it seemed to have all the best qualities of a MacBook, minus the shotty keyboard, and superior performance per dollar (at the time). Things went downhill rather quickly. I've had massive cooling issues, I've removed and replaced the thermal paste. I've been forced to operate the laptop on the "Cool" thermal setting; downgrading the performance of the processor. Now, the two of the screws in palm rest, which hold the screen in place, have sheered right off. Doing some digging, this was commonplace with this particular model. I'm not doing anything particularly intense either. Docker with a few containers running a dev website. I can't speak for the latest XPS 15 7590 build quality however.

teddyuk 6y ago
I will never buy a dell again, had an XPS 9550 (£2.7k 32gb ram, top of the range) - they had a chip in to detect a valid dell power adapter and that went so they wanted over 600 to replace the motherboard. I bought a macbook and use the dell charger (udb-c) to charge my macbook.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  My step-daughter spilled water on her MBA. It would no longer charge. It would run connected to AC, and the battery health was fine, but the "charging circuit" needed replaced, according to diagnostics. Okay, I thought. $200, maybe $300, including parts and labor. Not quite. They wanted $879. "Maybe we should look at getting you into a new Macbook instead?" No thanks. It was almost never used unplugged anyway.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Sounds like they needed to replace the whole motherboard.
- ac29 6y ago
  My 9370 is definitely just plain USB-PD, doesnt require a Dell charger. I can charge it with a inexpensive Anker charger. 600 is pricey for a mainboard replacement, but none of the other vendors are much better, including Apple. I previously had a Thinkpad that died shortly out of warranty, and they actually wanted more to fix it than I paid for it new.

jfkebwjsbx 6y ago

> and how the new Mac Pro is actually a Pro machine that they're headed back in the right direction (post Jony Ive). Hardly, considering the lack of professional tools support outside Hollywood movie makers.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
"Hollywood movie makers" and specifically VFX artists have long moved to linux/windows workstations as the performance on mac side has stagnated until the recent release of the Mac Pro but it was too little too late. Writers and sound engineers are still firmly in the Mac camp though due to their tools being mac exclusives.

abtinf 6y ago

The Apple list is shorter because you ignored nearly all of the differentiating features enabled by the Apple ecosystem. You also ignored many of the non-obvious details of the Mac hardware.

brianwawok 6y ago
Depends on use cases. We switch between the xps-13 and starting now this at work. We use 0 apple specific apps. We write python and Vue.js using pycharm. So from a business use case, do you want windows, Linux, or Mac hot keys? Python and everything runs everywhere. (Biggest problem is Windows Home doesn’t run Docker as well, but it can be worked around)
- deleted 6y ago
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pfranz 6y ago
I did a similar comparison a few years ago and had a very similar list and came to the same conclusion (about $500 more for the Apple, but it was probably worth it in known reliability and resale). The only thing I would have added was that Apple's camera quality hasn't improved in 10+ years, which sucks if you're working remote (hopefully now everyone notices this). A lot of the hardware things I liked about Mac laptops got stripped off (MagSafe, charging indicator, SD card slot). I imagine everything else is up to personal workflow. My wife was looking at another Mac laptop because she wanted to transition GarageBand projects from her iPad. Since, in practice, the files often crash when doing this and she has to export/import that workflow is useless and she's looking at a Windows laptop. I'd be curious what kind of things you would put on your list.
- abtinf 6y ago
  I’ll not that I use windows, Mac, and Linux (arch and Ubuntu) all equally effectively. In no particular order, here are some things about macs that are often missed: FaceTime, iPhone, sms/iMessage integration that works even when phone is not nearby. T2 chip/Secure Enclave. Easier to use full disk encryption. Note’s built in capability to encrypt specific notes with a private, unrecoverable password. Faster system software updates. Most apps shipping as DMG rather than installer packages, which allows me to install them without granting admin rights. Family members who have macs ask me for help far less than those with windows. The trackpad is vastly superior. I actually prefer thinkpad-style trackpoints, but thinkpads aren’t what they used to be. The Mac trackpad feels good to touch, the taptic full-pad pseudo-clicking is superior to physical button presses, and the multi-pressure level support is occasionally useful. The gestures work well and feel natural. Find my Mac/iPod/iPhone is implemented in a privacy preserving method. It’s also super useful to be able to simply say to my laptop “hey Siri, where is my phone?” to have it trigger the audio beacon. The speakers on the new 16” MBP are excellent. I use my headphones much less now. I love the look of Macbook monitors more than most pc laptop monitors. Of course, some pc laptops have comparable or exactly the same panel, but the price goes up pretty fast. Photos is an imperfect replacement for Picasa (RIP). However it has some features my family loves, like automatically figuring out groups of related events and generating movies from photos of family trips, then surprising me with a phone notification. Many of the built in apps feature end-to-end encryption. I feel like windows 10 is always spying on me. I have to spend hours configuring a fresh windows install to turn off all the garbage. Not signing into a Microsoft account with windows 10 causes all kinds of limitations, like not being able use fingerprint readers. The microphone array on the new MBP works very well such a shame it wasn’t paired with a better camera. Access to a terminal. I spend most of my time in vim. WSL just isn’t comparable (yet) in terms of integration and ease of use. There are also things that are much worse about macs, but that aren’t dealbreakers for me: Horrible software quality, going back decades, in ways that really matter. The only times I’ve ever lost data due to software is when OSX corrupted a drive. Backups are vital, and they must be stored on non-Apple devices/services. This is a hidden cost no one ever talks about, even though the internet is rife with Mac/time machine data loss anecdotes. Extremely uncomfortable sharp edges. Safari is so close to being useful, but falls short. I configure it to wipe out everything on close, and use it as a sort of super-private-mode browser. QuickTime is garbage. Application file associations are super finicky. There is no built in method to set the screen to native resolution, needlessly inflicting blurry screens. Apple might blow it again with the hardware for years, meaning no upgrade path. The machines are under-ventilated, under-powered, under-rammed. Lack of games support. Horrible battery life if you do anything intensive. Factorio burns through a full battery in about 90 minutes. I wish they would make a “kids edition” laptop that is cheaper, made of plastic for dent-resistance, and can be locked down in the same way as iOS. I wish it had a built in hyper visor or allowed me to run apps in something like sandboxie. I wish I could change the the window manager (I happily used Arch for years and fell in love with the tiling window manager spectrwm). The lack of a 4K screen on the MBP makes me sad. I had a thinkpad p1 with a 4K screen and it was stunning (but a power hog).

ubercow13 6y ago

I have an older XPS 13 with a glass screen (same design but previous generation) and one big annoyance is that every time you open the laptop, the screen will have grease marks across the centre where the keys have touched the glass while closed.

quicklime 6y ago
FWIW, this has been a problem on all the laptops I've ever owned, including 4 different MacBooks built between 2011-2019, and a Chromebook Pixel.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  And eventually the marks don't wipe off, they remove whatever coating is on the screen. I've had this happen on pretty much every MBP I've ever owned.
  - jen20 6y ago
    I've had this happen once, and the Apple store replaced the screen no questions asked. I usually use a microfibre cloth between the screen and the keyboard though. It's a problem with all (modern) laptops from what I can tell - my Thinkpad T480s suffers from it, though my X220 does not.
ascagnel_ 6y ago
Get a sheet of microfiber cloth, cut it to your screen size, and place it over the keyboard/trackpad before closing your laptop.
- ubercow13 6y ago
  Sure, or wiping it off before use with my shirt works as well! It's still a bit annoying
- qubex 6y ago
  If you’re into that kind of thing, RadTech makes microfleece screen protectors and sleeves that are already sized appropriately for various Apple products. https://www.radtech.com/products/screensavrz-macbook-pro-keyboard-cover https://www.radtech.com/products/screensavrz-macbook-pro-key...

infecto 6y ago

I cannot agree more. At least for myself i would add MacOS as a huge plus over any other laptop. I know many people work in Linux but I just for the life of me cannot make it as comfortable as MacOS.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
The integration with iOS/iMessages/keychain/homekit /FaceTime is extremely convenient for me. I don't mind paying extra for it, and I like that they have stores near me.
- alexggordon 6y ago
  I would definitely agree with that. Having bought into the Apple ecosystem brings software features that you can't get elsewhere.
ravenstine 6y ago
I really like Linux, but switched to macOS years ago because the quality of most Linux software outside of the GNU ecosystem is very unpredictable and commonly faulty. Companies seem to hate supporting Linux, and I've had enough distro updates break my OS in the past that eventually I just got beaten down. MacOS gives me a Unix shell, a consistent UI, and I've never had a system update lead to a black screen, or a new UI that I hate, or half my installed software being broken. Let's not even get started on the support for most Linux distros. Even Ubuntu has what I would consider to be dreadful support, unless maybe you're a corporate client of theirs. Linux is good if you can configure it for a very specific purpose, like a server, or a graphics workstation, or even web development. For general purpose, its warts grow the more you use it. Hopefully someone has a dangerous looking Bash one-liner that will solve all your problems.
fartcannon 6y ago
The thing I dont understand about OSX is the Finder situation. It's just awful. Installation is awful, finding applications is awful, navigating to the system folders is awful. It's very much like Windows and it's pretending Desktop is the root folder and then hiding everything behind databases of My Documents. Dont make me jump through hoops to find computery stuff.

hu3 6y ago

I would add form factor in the comparison. Dell XPS 13 is smaller.

latexr 6y ago

> I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision. As someone who’s never had a tripping accident with a magsafe charger but has had to replace multiple damaged chargers despite being careful, I welcome that change. Spending 90€ because Apple doesn’t know how (or doesn’t care) to make cables with a modicum of durability isn’t fun. With USB-C, presumably (I don’t own one of these) I could get better cables or replace them cheaper if they got frayed. I was also excited for the possibility of being able to charge on either side, until I learned that comes at a cost: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find-cause-of-high-kernel-task-cpu-usage/363933#363933 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...

jandrese 6y ago
Replacing the cable is a lot easier than replacing a damaged port. I don't have enough experience with USB-C devices to know but micro USB ports ended up being too fragile if you have toddlers.
- latexr 6y ago
  > Replacing the cable is a lot easier than replacing a damaged port. If you’ve ever had an accident with it, which I never had. I don’t doubt that removing magsafe is a loss in the aggregate; I’ve only mentioned the alternative is likely to be better for me. A better option still would be if they made durable magsafe cables. But they don’t, so here we are.
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    It's one of those things that doesn't matter to you, until it really really does. You only need one accident to make it completely worth it
    - kalleboo 6y ago
      If that's something you're worried about, there are USB-C magnet attachments you can buy. If it's something you don't worry about, now you have way more options for chargers and cables.

nightski 6y ago

As a long time PC user I'd say the Razer Blade series of laptops are far closer to Macbook replacements than Dell's machines. Plus you get a nice discrete GPU to boot. I've been using my 15" blade for several years now - and they are even better now.

rspicer 6y ago
As a long-time Apple user who switched to Windows/Linux after Apple decided to ditch discrete GPUs and open standards for graphics, 100% this. Razer Blades are the spiritual successors to the pre-unibody Macbooks. That said, I've had terrible luck with Razer batteries, and their only warranty replacement option involves a multi-week turnaround. It's a good thing I'm pretty handy and replacements can be had on the usual sources.
acolumb 6y ago
My friend had a Blade back in 2017 -- had to replace the charger 5 (!) times until he downgraded to a chromebook.

tw04 6y ago

After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. I love touch ID, but the bar needs to go. USB-C was all about standardizing. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, I did love magsafe, but I also love that in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all. And I'll be able to charge my headphones/laptop/phone/random device with a usb-c cable instead of needing 8 of them.

alexggordon 6y ago
The best way I can sell Thunderbolt 3/USB-C to myself is that at Apple's size, they need to be able to sell (to consumers, courts, governments) that they aren't being anti-competitive, so by switching to designs that are open and standardized (Thunderbolt 3 is a spec, not a patent) they can better sell their market dominance as not driven by patents and lawyers.
- tw04 6y ago
  I personally wish Apple would make something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Charge/dp/B07MMKZ8XD/ https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-Char... Before any of you see that and go "awesome, exactly what I was looking for!" - I've had several coworkers try various models of those adapters and all have told me they universally suck. Don't waste your money. I trust Apple could do it with quality - frankly I'd be willing to spend $50+ for a reliable version of that.
  - derekp7 6y ago
    I've got another trick to use in place of a Magsafe type cable. Get a cable that is a few feet longer than you need, and attach a couple magnets a few feet apart on the cable. Then click the magnets together. Now you have a cable with a loop that is held closed by the magnets. If someone trips over the cable, the magnets come apart and pull out slack from that loop, instead of pulling the cord on the back of the laptop. Not quite as good as having the cord detach, but it still helps in the majority of minor trip-induced cord pulls (depending on how much clack in the cable you leave bundled between the two magnets).

cwhiz 6y ago

I had a XPS13 a couple of years ago and the USB-C port was not Thunderbolt 3. The new 13” MBP has four TB3 ports which is a pretty big deal to me.

wslh 6y ago

You forgot that the Dell XPS 13 also has a touch screen... and there is a 2-1 model with a tablet mode and an (awful) pen.

alexggordon 6y ago
Given my experience with non MS Surface touch screens, I'm not really sure if I consider that a strong pro--if I were writing the sales pitch for the laptop yeah, it's a pro, but in terms of day to day use, I'm not sure how much I'm looking for a touchscreen on a laptop. Regardless though, the gesture support on MacOS touch-pads would probably cancel it out as anything I'd probably do with the touchscreen frequently could be supported through a gesture.
- wslh 6y ago
  Touch screens are useful as a shortcut to mouse or gesture movements.

boromi 6y ago

Have you ever purchased a Dell ? Well I just did (Dell XPS 13 2-in-1) last month and let me tell how you how horrible the driver and support has been. I really wish I could chuck this brand new 1400$ device out the Window for days of troubleshooting I've got through. I deeply regret it and wish I purchased a Surface device instead (note I'm not an Apple user) For the price premium and judging by the quality of the drivers that Apple produces, I WOULD MUCH RATHER PAY THE PREMIUM than struggle with Dell.

lostmsu 6y ago
What kind of driver issues did you get?
- boromi 6y ago
  Bluetooth and Sound. Take a look at the XPS forums, there's more than a dozen posts on each topic. Dell engineers haven't pushed a fix in over a month after delivering faulty BIOS drivers.
- boromi 6y ago
  I tried to return the POS but Dell wont take it back since I was a few days past their 30 day return policy. Let's not forget I had to deal with a minor fallout due to the pandemic, but their "customer service" department doesn't care about personal issues and difficulties customers have had during the last month and only profit and sales. I'm never buying Dell
  - mekster 6y ago
    There's a reason Dell produces stuff cheaply.
  - RandomBacon 6y ago
    Did you purchase it with a credit card that offers longer return periods on your purchases?
rezeroed 6y ago

CydeWeys 6y ago

It's pretty disappointing how few ports the XPS 13 has. Only two data ports (both USB-C), but it's really only gonna one because you're gonna be using the other one for charging all the time. And I use hardware security keys for everything so I always have one plugged into my laptop, so if have zero ports free and would need to attach a USB-C hub to do anything else. At least there's wireless keyboard and mice ... Any idea on battery life comparisons between the two? I'm not an Apple fan by any stretch, and don't have any Apple hardware at all except MacBooks, but honestly, the Mac here might be worth the extra money for the ports, build quality, and longevity. My current laptop is a 2013 top of the line MacBook Pro 15" that is still chugging along fine without any problems.

criddell 6y ago

One reason I'll recommend an Apple product over any PC to friends is the Apple Store. Aside from being able to see and play with the hardware, Apple's support experience is better than any PC maker's. Why doesn't Dell open a store in every neighborhood that has an Apple store? They should be able to match the Apple consumer experience, but more importantly (to Dell), they could run business support operations from those stores. I'd be a lot more likely to buy the XPS machine you mentioned if I could take it someplace when the coil whine becomes apparent.

atoav 6y ago
5 years ago I destroyed my dells screen, thrre was someone driving to my place the same day and he replaced the screen on site and I could work on. Where would apple ever do this?
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  This is what a lot of people don't know. If you pay for premium support from Dell, it is significantly better than the support experience with Apple. No having to check for appointment slots each day, hoping to get one two weeks out. No having to arrive at the store at the start of the day, get in the same-day queue, and hope to get seen for a 15 min checkup within 4 hours, and then lose your machine for days, if not weeks, while the repairs are done off site. Dell premium consumer (consumer, not talking about their business support options here) support gets you next day engineer to your home, with replacement parts on hand to repair your fault in your home. Three unsuccessful repairs on the same component results in a total replacement, usually with an upgrade.
  - criddell 6y ago
    If an Apple user is having trouble setting up Time Machine, they can book a slot at the store to have somebody help them configure that. Is Dell going to send somebody to my parents home to help them with that?
    - 6y ago

fluffything 6y ago

~~2399$~~ 2999$ (EDIT: see replies) in the US, and.... 3924$ for the same model if you buy it in Europe (3629 EUR). That's a bit outrageous. I still have a Macbook Air 2013, and have been looking for an upgrade for like 5 years, but I was not willing to pay 4k for a laptop with a worse keyboard, a worse power plug, an OS that in 2020 still doesn't have any kind of windows tiling capabilities and quite poor virtual desktops support, a useless touchbar, no wifi6, and the worst webcam ever made. Selling it at twice the price that in the US doesn't help. I can pay for a plane ticket, and still get it cheaper there. Also, for a company that markets their laptops as having great displays, its quite ironic that their OS still doesn't support any kind of window tiling to use them efficiently in 2020. The display isn't micro-LED either, so it is instantaneously outdated, and well... the retina display doesn't help you see your macbook-using coworkers any better because their webcams have a resolution of 1x1 pixels.

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
Sounds like a good business opportunity. What's stopping me from buying them all up at the Apple store and selling them to overseas customers?
- ekvilibrist 6y ago
  Different keyboards for starters?
  - fluffything 6y ago
    American layout actually adds value to the laptop in Europe. You can change the layout in the apple store when buying it here, but that adds 4 weeks to the delivery time..
  - IAmEveryone 6y ago
    in Europe, I can chose whatever keyboard I want, and I would think it's the same for the US store. I've configure both MacBooks I bought in the last decade with English keyboards because it's the only layout where {} and [] don't seem like a cruel joke by language designers.

OJFord 6y ago

> Objectively, seems to me that list used to be a lot longer on the Apple side Maybe, but I think the price gap used to be a lot longer too? (As in, Apple's dragged it up (or perhaps arguably dragged up build quality or whatever that's impacted price) not vice versa.)

sparkling 6y ago

Apple Pros: * macOS

lifeAsNerd 6y ago
Debatable. Personally this is a con.
- mekster 6y ago
  Pro is the quality of third party apps. OS is irrelevant as long as the hardware works.

virvar 6y ago

I think the resale value is Apples real strength. When I upgraded my 2016 13” mbp to the new airbook, Apple offered 60-70% of the airbook cost in return for the mbp. Because tech-wise there are just so many hood options. I ended up selling it to a local third party reseller that I’ve used in the past for 80% of the cost of the air. I can’t remember the original price for the mbp, but it was around what the air cost me. Compare that to the surface pro my wife has, which essentially lost all its value the moment she walked out the store. It’s an excellent machine by all means, and Linux subsystem is great, but it’s not actually cheaper than a Mac when you factor in the resale value. I do live in Denmark, and things may be different elsewhere, but the only hardware that has any resale value around here is Apple.

extr 6y ago

I have the latest Dell model (XPS 13 9300), and I'm left with a bit of chagrin as I probably would have looked into this new 13" MBP instead had it been available a few months ago, but overall I've been happy with my purchase. I'm not really "in" the Apple ecosystem so I'm probably a bit biased though. A few other Dell Pros: * 16:10 aspect ratio. The 4K touchscreen in general is fantastic, nearly borderless and really stunning in person. Dell has honed in on some great industrial design for the XPS 13 line. The laptop is incredibly compact for the feature set and screen size. * Keyboard is fantastic. Trackpad is great, but not quite Mac level. They have been improving this considerably over the years and this latest iteration is the best yet. * Linux support, even though I ended up not using it due to "okay" HiDPI support. * i7, FWIW. Not sure the thermals really allow you to take advantage of full perf gains from the better processor. * Another Dell Pro which has made me feel better about the purchase has been the free year of Next Day On-Site ProSupport. My original lid had a mark on it and no shit they scheduled a technician to come to my apartment and replace it the next day. Macs obviously have the advantage of Apple stores but in this case I was really happy with the level of CS Dell was able to provide. Dell Cons: * I was previously an (Arch) Linux user and have given Windows 10 a shot this time around, mostly because I don't have the time to be fiddling with config files these days. And while Windows does "just work", some things are a little janky still. From what I've heard of MacOS these days, things are not necessarily perfect there either, so maybe a toss-up. I will say Windows being so linux-friendly with WSL has made the transition much easier. * Two ports has been not really a huge issue. I find that either I'm docked, in which case I have a whole other set of ports to use, or I'm not really plugging in more than two USB C accessories at the same time.

duxup 6y ago
That new aspect ratio has me desperately wanting to upgrade. Well that and I have xps 15 and that was fine when I took a class a year or two ago but I find it a bit bigger than I like for laying about on the couch and etc.
ksec 6y ago
> 16:10 aspect ratio..... MacBook ( Pro, Air or just MacBook ) has always been using 16:10 ratio. 16:10 on Dell is something new in the PC space that everyone is making a big fuss about it. Although I hope this change will finally run across the industry so we are back to 16:10 instead of stupid video consumption orientated 16:9 Ratio.

nojito 6y ago

The only Dells that are comparable to the Macbook Pro line are the 7000 series Latitudes. The build quality of the XPS line is just not up to snuff.

soygul 6y ago

* Better Trackpad That is an understatement.

cactus2093 6y ago

Genuinely curious, have you had your MacBook Pro knocked over from the power cord since switching away from MagSafe? Lots of people complain about missing MagSafe but I’ve never seen or heard of this actually happening. I’m sure it has happened but it just doesn’t seem like a big problem. For me, just in the past month I’ve had the usb charger yanked out by the cord multiple times by people and pets tripping over it while working from home, but the laptop is heavy enough that it doesn’t budge and the cable comes out cleanly. The benefit of having a standard port now, being able to get monitor, power, and usb connected through one cable, or being able to use the usb-c charger to charge other devices when traveling, is well worth the change IMO. I also used to get little metal specks stuck in the MagSafe port, and then realize the laptop hasn’t been charging all day and have to clear it out and make sure the contacts were connected securely. I wasn’t a big fan of MagSafe at all.

mdrachuk 6y ago
My dog did it on several occasions.
wlll 6y ago
The very first day I had my first USB-C mac i had an incident with my standing desk that Magsafe would have saved. These days I tend to use my laptop at my desk with external monitors, but the thing that worries me the most when I'm somewhere else is the yanking of the cable weakening the and/or reducing the reliability. I had to re-solder the power adaptor on an old Acer a few times, I don't think I've got the parts or skills (or time) to do that on a few year old Mac.
- ProZsolt 6y ago
  The good thing about USB-C chargers, if you break the cable you can just buy a new one. No soldering necessary. I chew through a lot of MagSafe charges in the past few years. I fixed most of them, but you can't disassemble them without damaging it. EDIT: If you talking about the connector inside your laptop, that is a different story.
  - 6y ago

qubex 6y ago

It really stuns me how “MacOS” doesn’t appear anywhere in the Pros (or the Cons). That’s literally the main discriminant between choosing an Apple machine over any other brand, and there’s no mention of it. By missing that main difference the comparison is reduced to pure comparison of commodities, and of course the result is that the Apple machine is ‘unjustifiably’ more expensive. The Apple ecosystem is literally why people buy Apple machines rather than any other brand. I’m also mystified nobody else brought this up.

philwelch 6y ago
At this point macOS is just a different list of pros and cons all by itself.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Often a different list for each person.
- fredguth 6y ago
  For me it is still the best OS experience by far.
everdrive 6y ago
MacOS has really stagnated over the years. I first started using it back in 2004, where its main competitor was pre-SP2 Windows XP. At that time you could really call MacOS advanced. At this point, it's sort of a wash. Windows does things better, Mac does other things better, and it mostly comes down to preference. The old argument about security is mostly a wash now as well. (whereas with pre-SP2 Windows XP vs. OSX 10.4, you could legitimately claim that OSX was more secure.)
- mekster 6y ago
  Back then, MacOS X didn't have enough third party apps to replace Windows workflow but the OS kept advancing on every release. Now we have better third party apps on macOS than Windows but OS stopped advancing but who cares about OS anymore? It's all about apps nowadays.

mr_custard 6y ago

Useful figures, so thanks for providing those. It's been a few months since I last looked into the latest prices. I agree with you that it's still worth it. However, I feel that without comparing the OS and tight OS integration, this doesn't represent one of the most important aspects of a comparison between the two, when considering a purchase. I go through this same loop every time I buy a new machine... yes, usually it's "no more Apple for me!" especially when I do the price comparison. So I waver for a couple of weeks whilst I research the latest hardware and Linux distros. But then I end up buying an Apple machine. It's been the same story for me for the last 17 years. There's plenty of people like me out there that definitely don't want to use Windows, and that want a Unix that gets out of the way. I love Linux, especially on the server, but it's generally too much hassle on a laptop and so I always gravitate back to macos. If the $600 is an Apple tax for that, then I will gladly continue to pay it. Over the 3 years lifetime of a developer machine (or more!), my time is definitely worth more than $600 compared with constantly fiddling with Linux kernal modules and other hardware support issues. I just want to get some work done without interruptions. Definitely would love the exact same machine without the TouchBar, though. Perhaps that would shave off $100?

lwh 6y ago
Dell has supported Linux officially on the XPS 13 variants since 2012. https://bartongeorge.io/2020/01/01/introducing-the-2020-xps-13-developer-edition-this-one-goes-to-32/ https://bartongeorge.io/2020/01/01/introducing-the-2020-xps-...
- mr_custard 6y ago
  Thanks. I'm am aware of this. I research this all the time, and regularly come away disappointed. I don't know if I verbalised clearly enough, but I have actively wanted good options for years, and I'm always open to whatever alternatives are current at the time of purchase. Seriously, I'm in the market for a new laptop and there are still too many concerns relating to support for these devices... not just Dell but usually for whatever manufacturer I'm looking at. Once you start reading about people's experiences there are always issues - many of which have been discussed to death on HN. Just because Dell claim that Linux is officially supported does not mean that it will be a smooth ride. I don't think that has changed much at all over the last few years? But perhaps this year is different. Do you own this though? If you're using this new XPS model without power consumption issues, excellent wifi (wifi chips issues seem to always be the main downer), good mousepad behaviour? Perhaps it's finally not a problem? I will gladly lap up any positive news that you can give on this front.

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago

> I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision. With any luck the mag-safe connector will be back in a couple of years. Of course Apple will call it "new".

hombre_fatal 6y ago
If you care about it, just buy a magnetic USB-C dongle: https://www.amazon.com/usb-c-magsafe/s?k=usb+c+magsafe https://www.amazon.com/usb-c-magsafe/s?k=usb+c+magsafe Returning to magsafe would be a downgrade when you can just magsafe-ify any of the ports yourself with a cheap adapter.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  Not an entirely bad idea, however I t should be obvious that having an adapter hanging out the side of ya laptop is less than ideal.
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    Well, I think it's a superior solution to having a special magsafe port when you can have more USB-C ports with the option to add magsafe to them.

geophile 6y ago

Apple has lost me as a customer for their computers. The software has been getting flakier for years, the butterfly fiasco, and their inexplicable decision to continue shipping laptops missing 15% of the keyboard. I'm on a System 76 Darter Pro now. Pop OS has been fantastic. Great specs for the money, and while it certainly isn't Mac-level hardware, it's fine. At this point, the Darter has a far superior keyboard, even comparing to the newest MBP keyboards. I still need a Mac for my music and photo collection, and to sync my phone. But since my 2015 MBP is dying, I'm in the market for a used Mac Mini.

zeku 6y ago
Apple still has me as a customer, when it comes to work solutions. I have to use windows at home for gaming, no way around it. MacOS vs Windows 10 is a MUCH lesser difference than MacOS vs Windows 8 and below. If Apple doesn't put more focus into their computers over the next 5 years the tide may truly turn. Also before someone mentions Linux, I really love linux. I used linux out of NEED in college but I find myself maintaining it too much for it to be worth it vs MacOS when it comes to work. I have access to linux servers for running most of my code anyway so perhaps I'm a special user.
vaxman 6y ago
Has to be fanless and new SSD or HDD, or you are buying trouble just to avoid setting up Plex or something.

lobotryas 6y ago

The other important differentiator is the OS. I can’t (reliably) get MacOS on a Dell laptop so my choice is clear: either keep using the MBP I have or upgrade. At this point I don’t want to go back and try re-learning Windows.

vmception 6y ago

The real news is that you can get 32gb RAM and 4TB SSD in a 13-inch form factor Sometimes its not really about the price, its about "can you?". I'm glad Apple (and Dell) is addressing the market, alongside the improvements in the technology in their supply chain. There have definitely been some years where I have been pretty sure something was possible but everyone was holding out for another year because a processor came out too late, or some totally antitrust violating agreement, or milking consumers, all while we just had to assume there were some quality control or battery life issue. I am glad to know this is going to be generally available.

fnord123 6y ago

The macbook still electrocutes you when it's plugged in since the grounding is all fucked up. This is still a problem: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3969131 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3969131 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-pro-giving-me-electric-shock.1625275/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-pro-giving-me-e... https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/10545/is-it-bad-that-my-macbook-air-is-passing-me-electricity https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/10545/is-it-bad-th...

switch007 6y ago
Every Apple device I've owned has done this (iPad, iPhone, MacBook) :/
- BluePen7 6y ago
  According to the forum posts, it's happening to everyone who uses the default plug, the extension that comes with a 3 pin plug resolves the issue. I have one short and one long cable, and am only just now realizing the issue. I'd simply assumed the short one was a fake I'd gotten. Can't speak to why your iPhone and iPad do the same thing, I've experienced it when using sketchy cheap lightning cables or wall adapters (including ghost touching), but not when using better built stuff (like AmazonBasics or Anker).
  - vbezhenar 6y ago
    That's assuming that your house have grounded sockets. My house does not and most of old houses in my country are the same, only new houses have ground.
gattilorenz 6y ago
That's some... creative usage of the verb "electrocute", which implies death. That said, I did feel the electric current when the 2012MBP was not grounded, but the 2017 model does not have the same problem.
- 6y ago

diffeomorphism 6y ago

Dell: * Much higher resolution screen (3840x2400 vs 2560x1600) * Smaller and lighter (not by much though) and thinner bezels * Better hardware support (apple hardware has bad support under anything but macOS and I can't think of any hardware which is supported under mac but not on windows).

pfranz 6y ago
> apple hardware has bad support under anything but macOS and I can't think of any hardware which is supported under mac but not on windows I had to read this a few times. You mean third-party hardware and peripherals, right? I first read it as running Windows on Mac hardware, which Bootcamp supports. Linux usually lags a few years and often isn't solid. Battery life usually isn't as good. Paradoxical to your peripheral experience, I often much prefer macOS' experience to Windows with things like mice and printers since they often use standard, builtin tools instead of requiring third-party drivers with terrible UIs. For most things in the past 10-15+ years they support both Mac/Windows. One pro Windows laptops usually have over Mac is the Mac webcams have the same quality from their laptops over a decade ago. Cameras are something Apple used to brag about (both including them standard and the quality of them).

aguyfromnb 6y ago

>IMHO I think the Touch Bar disappointment is probably over dramatized by developers, it's not too bad a couple years in The touch bar still sucks, but eventually all design decisions Apple makes are justified by users.

lazerpants 6y ago
They literally just changed the keyboard design because users hated it.
- aeyes 6y ago
  They changed it because on 50% of all machines (stats from our office) the keyboard went bad within a year, causing massive warranty cost for Apple.

snug 6y ago

I haven't had a Dell in awhile, 4+ years, but I have to say, the Macs that I've had felt just as sturdy as the day I bought it. My personal MBP I got is from early 2017, and my new MBP I got for work less than a year ago feel exactly the same, besides one having stickers I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Every dell I've had starts creaking at the hinges after just a few uses. Doesn't feel as sturdy, the $600 difference is worth the longevity and integrity of the macbook hardware alone.

andy9775 6y ago

> A $600 price difference for this machine is probably worth it in my mind. Agreed. Recently bought the 16 inch MBP after considering Lenovo and Dell. Prices between the machines weren't that much different (Lenovo came to 7200 minus some discount to bring it down to MBP price). End of the day I didn't want to deal with Linux drivers (no M$ for me) and I wanted something that worked. Plus, the touchpad on an Apple device can't be beat. It's not a perfect machine, mainly Catalina issues I suspect, but worth it IMO.

treve 6y ago
The XPS13 optionally comes with Ubuntu preinstalled. Haven't had to fight drivers in a while (on my second XPS 13).
- andy9775 6y ago
  ya, but limited hardware IIRC. Considered it.

spullara 6y ago

> Better Trackpad After using the Dell for a month and finally sending it back, I can tell you that this was the deal breaker for me.

twalla 6y ago

If Apple made a 13 inch MBP without touchbar but with 4 ports I’d buy 3 because I know they’d immediately discontinue or “improve” it.

throwphoton 6y ago
Apple should simply re-release the pre-touchbar 2013 Macbook Pro, with USB-C ports. "Peak MacBook Pro" was 2013 (once they fixed the screen-coating deterioration).
- molszanski 6y ago
  Let's talk 2013 vs 2015 :D
mekster 6y ago
Back then, Apple hardware only differentiated in hard disk spaces for the different prices and provided equal experience to users and now their lineup is such a mess and if you want 4 ports, you have to take 512GB space which is typically way too big and no clear distinction between Air and Pro but more like Pro is Air + all sorts of random options. Sadly, Jobs' vision is fading out.

shrimpx 6y ago

The xps is a plastic laptop with a plastic hinged small trackpad. The mbp trackpad alone is worth the extra money. I keep a laptop for 4-5 years. It’s not worth interacting thousands of times a day with an outdated subpar input device to save $10 a month. I’ve been watching the xps closely and the internal stats are good but the “plastic laptop with a small hinged trackpad” aspect of it make it a no go for me at the price point.

alexggordon 6y ago
Per the specs on the dell website, it's a milled aluminum chassis. Guess that could technically mean there's plastic somewhere, but they seem to be selling the fact it's not plastic.
- woah 6y ago
  Through some kind of engineering magic, they've been able to make it out of thin aluminum while still retaining the creaky plastic feeling Dell is known for.
- shrimpx 6y ago
  The top shell and the bottom shell are thin aluminum but the rest of the laptop is plastic. The bottom assembly is a plastic body screwed into a thin aluminum shell. Unfortunately I don’t have a link but there are reviews on YouTube where people subject it to the “twist test” and the laptop body creaks and visibly twists under light manual force.

znpy 6y ago

the new macbook pro has 4 thunderbolt ports only if you go for the top-of-the-line model. anything "regular" has two ports like the dell xps 13. You also "forgot" to mention that the xps 13 is probably easier to fix if anything goes wrong. Regarding hardware support... what do you mean exactly? If it's warranty, dell is probably as good as apple.

ksec 6y ago

>I will say that even though I prefer the travel of the '12-'15 era keyboards, this typing experience is far superior than the faulty butterfly keys. I still dont like the new Magic Keyboard travel. It feels to me exactly the same as butterfly. The whole typing experience just sucks. But given a lot of people ( DHH ) are saying it feels the same as Magic Keyboard on the iMac ( Which I will probably never understand ), the likelihood of that ever coming back to the Mac is near Zero. May be even Magic Keyboard on iMac will one day be the same as well. I wonder if someone will make a plastic keyboard cover that adds back the few mm key travel, along with "artificial" buttons to cover up the Touch Bar. In case anyone ask why not the MacBook Air, it is because the CPU run up to 90C with passive cooling. I dont know how long will the product last under medium load usage.

soperj 6y ago

>* Better hardware support What are you basing that on?

diebeforei485 6y ago

This comparison is at the higher end, but I am curious about the $1799 version of the Macbook Pro - with the new 10th Gen processors, 16GB of RAM, and 512GB storage.

oneplane 6y ago

Depending on what your needs are, the TouchID and T2 might be pros (or cons). Same thing with macOS, but that might simply be a matter of 'need it' and 'do not need it' and isn't much of a gradient. If you need macOS, you'll buy a Mac and the whole comparison matters a whole lot less.

caycep 6y ago

I'd say - based on my experience w/ work-issued dell's, the Apple keyboard is better. Even the butterfly...the dell keys were prone to falling off (albeit I suppose you could repair them w/o replacing the entire chassis....) I hope the Mac screen is still better. We bought a couple of Thinkpad T490's on discount. The internals are fine, good processors, battery life, keyboard, but the trackpad sucks and the screen is noticeably still worse than my 2014 MacBook Pro...

Twirrim 6y ago

> I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision. I really dislike the mag-safe adapter on my 2015 Mac (the first Mac I've ever had). It often feels like you only have to sneeze in the direction of the connector and it pops right off. I get the problem they're trying to solve, I too don't want to go back to the old style of connector where you could accidentally rip it out of the motherboard. I just want something a little firmer than magsafe.

pfranz 6y ago
I'm guessing you have MagSafe2. I only had MagSafe1 laptops and thought they were great. I might be mistaken, but I thought I had heard of Apple tweaking the magnets on different models. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe#MagSafe_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe#MagSafe_2 I believe the Surface have their version of MagSafe and support charging via USB-C...I wish that was the direction Apple went with.

thoughtsimple 6y ago

I’m pretty sure Apple is using the latest 4-core 10th Gen CPUs. Unless the Dell is using a 6 core chip, it is unlikely that their CPU is better. The top end is the Core i7-1068NG7 and the i5 is the Core i5-1038NG7. They are both 28W parts with the highest end integrated GPU that Intel sells.

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

When I buy a Mac, I don't buy a computer. I buy an operating system. In my case, the Apple OS gives me exactly what I need. Apple holds all the cards, and are able to set the price. Wish it was lower, but I am glad the OS works as well as it does. The control that Apple has over both the hardware and software is key to that. For others, Windows is exactly what they need (I see this a lot with hardware hacker stuff. It's very hard to get Apple versions of a lot of the tools I need). They do have a lot more choices, but I prefer my experience. Well worth the difference in price, for me.

Thorentis 6y ago

Dell XPS + Linux Mint seems like it would be an incredible development machine. I used to love OS X because everything "just worked" and you still got a real bash environment. I think Linux has caught up in terms of UX. I installed Linux Mint on my desktop recently and Cinnamon is really nice. All the tools I need are there, and I had no drivers issues whatsoever. I see little reason to continue buying into the Apple ecosystem. I switched from iPhone to an S9+ a couple years back and plan to keep this phone for at least another few years unless it dies. I think in general people are getting sick of the upgrade cycle. Gadgets are getting good enough that they can last multiple release cycles. I think consumer electronics companies are going to need to find a way to evolve, or they really will be running into the classic "not enough consumers" problem.

woah 6y ago

I have an xps-13, and it has been pretty unreliable. The first one I got died mysteriously, luckily I was able to exchange it for a working one. After a couple years of occasional use, the screen died (my guess is it was probably just the cable). I still don't use it unless I need more processing power, preferring to use my 2016 Macbook 12" for everything other than compiling Rust code. The Macbook has held up great, and I even did the infamous glued in battery replacement myself. I will probably get a Macbook pro in the next few years instead of another non-mac computer.

Sangeppato 6y ago

I think that the MBP actually has the better CPU and the better thermals (the latest XPS is not that great in this regard). Other than that, I completely agree