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France offers each cyclist €50 for bike repairs once lockdown ends

318 points by leonagano 6y ago

mytailorisrich 6y ago
This is one of those of those proposals that allows the pats in the back to go round, but which are in fact completely useless because in effect it is just a windfall for people who did not ask for anything and who did not need any help.
- soperj 6y ago
  because most people who bike are rich?
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    That's beside the point. If you have a bike and puncture a tyre, you do not wait for the state to give you money before you repair it. France is one of the world's richest countries so I'm thinking that the French were not saving up to change their bikes' tyres... They've been given free money to spend on bikes, so they will spend it on bikes (repairs or not, let's be honest, because it's ridiculous to think that the French are in desperate need of bike repairs). This is just a subsidy for bike shops and bike accessories companies and it allows to spin how green the government is.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > France is one of the world's richest countries Not even in the top 20. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
      - Etheryte 6y ago
        While I don't agree with the original discussion points, I don't think this counterpoint has much merit. While France may not be "one of the richest" verbatim, there's no denying France is a rich first-world country. In the list you linked to, it ranks 25 out of 187 by the IMF estimate and similarly in other listings.
        mytailorisrich 6y ago
        This was not a counterpoint point at all. More like bike-shedding meets strawman. There has not been any counterpoint to my comments yet, actually. My guess is because people have an emotional and ideological take on this: Cycling is good so giving money to fund repairs of bike has to be a positive measure as well. Except that it is not based on any economic or rational reasoning. I'm pretty certain that the only result will be to fund superfluous purchases or upgrades because that the standard effect of windfall subsidies.
        soperj 6y ago
        How? they aren't even giving people the money. It's literally just for repairs. If anyone here is having an emotional/ideological take it would be you.
        mytailorisrich 6y ago
        That's not an argument... "Just for repairs" is exactly my point. This is what makes it quite obvious that it won't do anything regarding uptake of cycling. It's a windfall, people will obviously be happy and may take the opportunity to upgrade to more expensive parts, but that's about it. If they needed repairs they would have had them done anyway. This is a political measure that has no practical value. There was a public transport strike in France recently and that caused an uptake in cycling. I expect the same after the end of the lockdown because people may still be wary of public transport. This subsidy brings nothing.
        soperj 6y ago
      - tester89 6y ago
        This is a silly argument[0], but for what is being discussed, what really counts is the average wealth per adult for which France does quite well at 11th (for median, 13th for mean)[1]: [0] with respect to classifying countries as rich or not as it ignores the fact that the category is not fixed in size. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...
    - jobigoud 6y ago
      What if it's the chain that's broken or a wheel is not straight or a brake cable needs replacing or the bike spent a few years in a cellar and it's not clear to the owner if it's roadworthy or not? Almost everyone has a bike but they are convenience vehicle, not everyone is a hobbyist or has the proper tools to repair it outside of patching inner tubes.
a3_nm 6y ago
> The French government is slowly bringing its lockdown to a close from May 11, with cyclists allowed back onto the roads for the first time since March. To clarify, this is somewhat inaccurate: biking is permitted, and has always been permitted, during the French lockdown, as a judgment (in French) recently confirmed: https://www.conseil-etat.fr/actualites/actualites/le-gouvernement-doit-indiquer-publiquement-que-le-velo-est-autorise-durant-le-confinement https://www.conseil-etat.fr/actualites/actualites/le-gouvern.... Cyclists were just subject to the same restrictions as anyone else -- these restrictions were the same no matter the transportation means. And yes, these measures should change by May 11, but the details are not confirmed yet.
- maelito 6y ago
  The french "interior ministry" lied about cycling on twitter, saying you weren't allow to go out for your daily 1h by bike. The law never said that. All the newspapers relayed this lie without checking this fact.
  - chippy 6y ago
    then one can expect that the population also believed it and social pressure enacted it?
    - nraynaud 6y ago
      it's more like the police actually gave fines for it, and fighting a fine is a hassle. (in particular now, I don't think really can, probably have to wait fo re-opening).
  - Signez 6y ago
    To be fair, some newspapers did checked the information (like Libération's fact-checking service, CheckNews.fr – so did NextINpact, that are quite specialised in those kind of governement overreach), but it wasn't clear if that kind of decision was part of a reasonable interpretation of the law by the minister. The Conseil d’État clarified that it wasn't.
duxup 6y ago
Is there some reason to think this has any kind of predictable outcome? I'm all for good incentives but not if there is no apparent benefit.
arrrg 6y ago
I don’t think TCO is an issue with bikes. I would estimate the TCO of a bike to be somewhere between €15 and €50 a month†. That compares favourably to cars which would be somewhere up at €350 to €700 per month, so that’s an order of magnitude off. If that payment can be an effective incentive to use the bike more that’s nice, I guess, but I’m not sure it can. Infrastructure would be the most important (and also most expensive) driver of bike usage if I had to guess. That’s not easily or quickly changed. I mean, for us the cost factor definitely is relevant. We can save so much money by not having a car and there are so few situations where we would need one (if we really need one we can rent one once a year). So sure: Sometimes a car would be practical or nice to have but for that little tiny benefit it is too expensive. So, yeah, TCO does play a role – but I don’t think €50 per year change that calculus significantly if you have already decided that a car is worth it for you. — † Between €500 and €1,500 for the bike (used for five years), between €100 and €300 per year for repairs.
- Fricken 6y ago
  I know enough people who don't ride their bikes because of some simple repair job they never get around to doing, often because they're mildly intimidated by it, and it's one of those jobs you can always put off until tomorrow. Money usually isn't the issue. Often it's the most trivial of obstacles that stand between people and their proclivity to adopt a particular habit.
- morsch 6y ago
  That's for a fancy bike, not that there's anything wrong with it. You can get by with a tenth of that if you get a "beater", which may or may not be sufficient for your urban transportation needs.
  - swimfar 6y ago
    Also, the annual repair costs are probably assuming you have someone else do them. I think that's a reasonable expectation for most people, but it can be quite a bit less if you can do some of them yourself. I'm pretty sure I average less than $50/year for all maintenance costs for about 2000 miles of commuting.
zymhan 6y ago
Let's be honest, 50 Euros per person is a drop in the bucket compared to the subsidies governments give to other modes of transportation.
- hk__2 6y ago
  > Let's be honest, 50 Euros per person is a drop in the bucket compared to the subsidies governments give to other modes of transportation. And that’s largely sufficient. Having a bike doesn’t cost a lot per year: according to the FNAUT (Fédération des associations des usagers de transport), on average, bikers spend ~€0.21/km. An air chamber costs €5; an air pump (one-time purchase) is €10.
  - simlevesque 6y ago
    Don't buy cheap air pumps. Those things need to be strong to last. They handle a lot of pressure. A 10€ air pump will break at the first fall and most have small bases so they tip easily. And when they break you must buy a new one. If you really use it, a 25€ pump will cost you way less over as little as 3 years.
    - new2628 6y ago
      I bought a pump for 5€ and we have been using (4 people) it regularly for around ~10 years. I know, inflation.
    - markus92 6y ago
      If you need to put 8 bars in your quick speedy bike? Absolutely. For a simple urban commuter bike? No difference, you aren’t going to put in more than 3,5 bars in those fat tires anyways.
      - Too 6y ago
        Commuting with 8 bars is way more convenient than 3.5. Having the right pressure is much underrated. On my way to work i roll by lots of other struggling commuters without even pedaling, looking at their poor almost flat tires. Bike pump is one of those items where you will be happy you invested a few extra bucks, a good one lasts a lifetime and you will enjoy it every time you use it, instead of being frustrated to have something that is just barely good enough. I used to have a bad one and it was so frustrating i only pulled it out once the tires were desperately flat, got a good one and now i regularly pump up my tires because it's so effortless.
GhostVII 6y ago
Do most people really need $50 for bike maintenance? I think I've spent about $15 on my beater bike over the last couple years, just to buy a new tube and maybe some wd40. For the vast majority of people I would imagine that they don't maintain their bike at all, modern bikes hold together pretty well.
- abyssin 6y ago
  If you want working brakes and use your bike more than twice a year, you definitely need more than buying a new tube every two years. Working brakes will save your life.
  - GhostVII 6y ago
    I can lock up the front and back brakes easily with a single finger, and haven't touched them in a couple years. And I use that bike constantly.
    - abyssin 6y ago
      What type of brake is this? I've never heard of such performant and maintenanceless brakes. Drum brakes like Shimano Rollerbrake can go for thousands of kilometers with very little maintenance (although you're supposed to grease them), but they wouldn't lock up with a single finger. Disc brakes and v-brakes require to change pads every few hundred kilometers. How many kilometers do you ride every year?
      - Baeocystin 6y ago
        I've ridden my (heavy!) e-bike for a few thousand miles, and although I've replaced tubes and tires, I'm still on the original disc pads. I don't think they're anything special, just middle of the road cable actuated stuff. Do pads usually wear faster? Honest question.
        cardinalfang 6y ago
whalesalad 6y ago
This is a very bizarre headline.
CalRobert 6y ago
People are focused on the relatively small amount here, and that's valid, but I suspect that some of the incentive here is to keep momentum in cycling going (from people avoiding transit, enjoying temporary bike infra, etc.) and trying not to lose that progress. There might be a lot of people for whom that €50 means a tuneup that gets them to take the bike out when before it would've just rusted. I mean, data would be nice, but that's the hope (I'm guessing)
- aplummer 6y ago
  If you’re right that money in a public health system will pay back dividends I imagine.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- duxup 6y ago
  Is anyone really waiting for €50 to use or not use their bike on a regular basis? I'm highly skeptical. This seems like it will just benefit folks already doing it anyway.
  - jxcl 6y ago
    Maybe not, but a properly tuned and lubricated bike is waaaayyyyy more pleasant to ride and may help to encourage increased bike use. It's easier to do stuff when it's pleasant.
  - doyoureallytnot 6y ago
    I really think so. We had a pop-up bike repair workshop come around every month at my last place of work and it really increased bike use in the area.
  - ploika 6y ago
    Absolutely. There are plenty of people who have a bike with a flat tyre and a rusty chain and no lights or whatever. They might go back to taking the bus or metro, but if they were offered a free service (effectively) to make cycling a viable option, they'll take it. I know loads of people who cycle to work because of Ireland's Bike To Work scheme. They can all afford a bike without help, but the extra incentive was enough to get them to start cycling.
castratikron 6y ago
The US used to have a similar program, created during the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 and subsequently removed by the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2018. Maybe it will come back as part of a new stimulus in 2020?
Pete-Codes 6y ago
Wow, really cool scheme! Would love to see it in Scotland. A friend nicely lent me his bike and I've been going for rides every day during lockdown. Really got the cycling bug now and a scheme like this would be great.
- AdrianB1 6y ago
  It is so easy to do: just ask your government to increase the taxes by 100 pounds and then give you back 50 pounds. Your loss, but you will be happy for the 50 pounds you get from the government, not thinking where the money come from.
  - akgerber 6y ago
    Wait until you hear about 'free' parking.
SirLuxuryYacht 6y ago
Since this isn't just a €50 windfall direct deposited into their bank accounts, as in the IRS stimulus, it seems like the best approach towards getting people on bikes. If you are skeptical about whether or not this is a waste of government money, consider why you have not yet begun commuting by bike. The French just bought €300M worth of new bike highway and they want it to be used. What costs could outweigh better air quality and healthier people?
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  It does not get anyone on bikes since it targets people who already have bikes. It is bizarre to think that people who have bikes were waiting for a €50 windfall before actually riding them.
  - abdullahkhalids 6y ago
    When you own a 200$ second hand bike, their is a weird psychological pressure to not spend 30-50$ on repair because it is 15-25% of the actual cost of bike. I have definitely experienced it myself.
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
      Well it only means that these 'repairs' are not required for you to ride the bike. Or you don't plan to ride at all. Either way, the point is that this is windfall spending but does not change anything to the actual daily use of bikes.
- my_username_is_ 6y ago
  >What costs could outweigh better air quality and healthier people? And given France's public health system, the upfront investment in healthier people will likely pay future dividends through lower healthcare spending.
alias_neo 6y ago
It's a nice gesture but hardly solves a problem. If the payment is for a mechanic to perform some "service" on your bicycle to make it roadworthy again, and from it you gain neither the tools nor the knowledge to perform two simple, necessary tasks for a cyclist; replace a tyre/inner tube, or replace a chain; what's the long term benefit? How about put 50 euros per cyclist into a tool kit, a dozen inner tubes and some education (YouTube videos even?) so they can continue to cycle long after the 50 euro one time service has passed?
- SirLuxuryYacht 6y ago
  But what about the economy? Jokes aside, bike mechanics have to pay rent too.
- egypturnash 6y ago
  "Cycle training and temporary parking spaces will also be provided by the funds"
- testing312 6y ago
  > to perform two simple, necessary tasks for a cyclist; replace a tyre/inner tube, or replace a chain Never had to do either of those things, driving a bike almost daily throughout the city to school, hobbies, friends,... The few times my tire went flat, a short visit to a mechanic cost alsmost nothing
  - alias_neo 6y ago
    Sure, but this funding would presumably cover you for one visit. Is that enough to convince you to start cycling if you don't already? If they want to convince people to ride, it makes sense to provide them the tools to sustain themselves. Teach a man to fish... And all that.
  - Jenda_ 6y ago
    What total mileage do you have? In my experience, it will start skipping on some gears after 7000 or maybe 10000 km and then you need to change the entire drivetrain, because it got destroyer by the heavily worn-out chain. Learning to fix the flat myself was good because I can do it immediately in 10 minutes without having to walk the bike to the shop (which are closed during evenings/weekends) and wait.
Nasrudith 6y ago
Really why not just spend the money on community bicycles and docking stations, increased racks or similar efforts instead of maintenance? I don't object to promoting bicycling at all but the means puzzle me a bit.
- maelito 6y ago
  Because there are probably more than 100 million bikes in France, lots of them in garages are not ready to be a daily means of transportation.
- hk__2 6y ago
  France is doing both.
- MiroF 6y ago
  > community bicycles and docking stations, I have yet to see a place where those have worked very successfully - they seem to very quickly fall apart and into disuse. In China, it is even worse.
  - lapnitnelav 6y ago
    We have those in Dublin. Seems to be working mostly ok and pretty cheap to use. A 20€ yearly membership and your rides are free if they last less than 30 minutes. Which means free for most folks.
profikid 6y ago
In holland you can buy a bike for 50 euros.
- Raed667 6y ago
  And in France as well (leboncoin.fr), I guess the idea here is to encourage people who needed a push to fix their tires or breaks to make the move and use all those bikes left collecting dust.
  - _Wintermute 6y ago
    The price of second hand bikes increased massively during the transport strike, I'm not sure if they've come down yet.
cyrillevincey 6y ago
This €50 subsides is a fantasy from Cycling Weekly. No announcement was made by any local or national public authority, and no sign in the French news about this. Love from Paris anyway.
- Fricken 6y ago
  It was announced by the environment minister: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-cycling-idUSKBN22C2JQ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france...
- Majestic121 6y ago
  If you want a reputable French source : https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-gouvernemental-de-20-millions-d-euros-pour-encourager-la-pratique-du-velo-au-deconfinement_6038198_3244.html https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-go...
  - cyrillevincey 6y ago
    ok my bad
- itcrowd 6y ago
  Here it is in Le Monde: https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-gouvernemental-de-20-millions-d-euros-pour-encourager-la-pratique-du-velo-au-deconfinement_6038198_3244.html https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-go...
Havoc 6y ago
That’s a very innovative angle for handing out benefits. I like it
jamil7 6y ago
People in this thread are getting really hung up on the idea that someone with a bike == cycling enthusiast. In Europe a huge amount of people just own a bike. Often some beaten up thing they probably paid €30-200 for at a flea market or bike shop and use to commute or meet friends. Maybe it's fallen into a state where it's unrideable. The €50 is just a simple nudge for all those people to get it roadworthy so they can start using it again or sell it to somebody who will use it.
- _jal 6y ago
  > the idea that someone with a bike == cycling enthusiast Very common rhetorical technique. Not everyone who does this is calculating; a lot of people just parrot what they hear. But the goal of the messaging is to make marginalize, to make it sound like some tiny group whining about their hobby, which inconveniences "normal" (car driving) people. Turn it into a game - start talking about the motorist lobby as just another special interest, compare them to some other lobby your conversationalist will find distasteful - guns, animal rights, mountaintop removal, something will push their buttons. If you do it well, the cognitive dissonance is fun to watch. I don't ride my bike much anymore; have had repeated bad experiences with shithead motorists (live in SF) and just won't risk it anymore. But when I did, I never spent more than $100 on a bike, because it was just going to be stolen within a year.
  - asjw 6y ago
    This is true, but bike market in US (for example) amounts to 47 billions with a prediction of 75 billions in 2025 Car market is much richer but most of it comes from second-hand retail, which is practically non existent for bikes. For comparison 45 billions is half of the market size of the tobacco industry and about the same size of the gun market. Not bad for an hobby and more similar to a lobby itself.
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  > Often some beaten up thing they probably paid €30-200 for at a flea market or bike shop In Belgium, Belgian people buy mostly new ones in the range of 500-1000. People who don't earn much or students, buy the cheap/used bikes you mentioned. Electrical bikes are > 2000 € and pretty popular. In general, a whole family can bike together and it's very popular during the summer. We can bike were-ever we want during Covid as long as it's in the 25 km. range. I actually have 2 bikes ( 1 normal and 1 race bike) and a bike lending subscription when friends come over ( 1 € / bike / 24 hours for 12€ / year)
DonHopkins 6y ago
"we want the bicycle to be the queen of deconfinement" I'll bet that sounds really beautiful in the original French.
- Drup 6y ago
  In french, "la petite reine" (i.e., "the little queen") is a fancy literary idiom for a bicycle. Also, "bicyclette" is a feminine noun.
- bovine3dom 6y ago
  « Nous voulons que cette période fasse franchir une étape dans la culture vélo, et que la bicyclette soit la petite reine du déconfinement en quelque sorte » [1] I think the English version is nicer. More succinct. Edit: ah, ok, my rudimentary knowledge of French meant that I missed out on a pun as another reply to your comment points out. I take it back: a pun trumps all brevity. [1]: https://fr.news.yahoo.com/d%C3%A9confinement-plan-20-millions-deuros-222230740.html https://fr.news.yahoo.com/d%C3%A9confinement-plan-20-million...
frankohn 6y ago
Adoption of cycling would require more serious actions like improving the road system for the bicycles so that cyclist are safe from the cars. The cycling should be also a pleasant activity so that people can do it naturally, without being forced. I am in France and I am enjoying now the reduction of car traffic and the improvement of air quality but this is going to end as soon as the confinement is over.
- rytis 6y ago
  Same here in London. We still can enjoy relatively car free roads, but this is definitely going back to "normal" where cycling becomes quite close to a Russian roulette type of activity... I'd like to commute on a bike, but I'm not that suicidal (I've clocked in 20k km on London roads commuting, but now it's too far, too dangerous).
diebeforei485 6y ago
I'd like to see other cities doing something like this. Although a typical annual tune-up costs closer to $100.
cawlin 6y ago
People seem motivated to keep their bikes maintained if they don't have to pay for it themselves from my experience. In Canada I've volunteered at free bike tune up stations for many years, they are usually set up at popular summer events or at community centres. We get a lot of people who aren't confident enough to do basic things like adjust brakes, gears or even change a flat tire. Most of the time they've simply rode their bike and dealt with poor performance or issues until it becomes a problem or they feel it is unsafe to ride. For these folks getting someone to do extremely basic yearly maintenance would keep them happily riding for a long time.
touisteur 6y ago
The region around Paris decided to give a 500eur subvention for ebikes and 600eur for ecargos. One per adult person if you live in Île de France. Great (waiting for the check right now) but I'm not sure it didn't jack the prices up a bit :-\
londons_explore 6y ago
Other similar government initiatives always lead to the providers hiking the price of all repairs and maintenance work by €50... I'm not sure quite why, since presumably market forces should still work to make people go to the cheapest bike shop to get as much value as possible for their €50, but that never seems to happen... Example: grants to give discounts of ~£300 to install EV charging points in people's houses simply led to the price of installation rising by £300 overnight.
gnopgnip 6y ago
This seems like a really cheap way to get the desired outcome, more people exercising
nie100sowny 6y ago
Instead of €50. The government could make €70 tax relief. Then there would be no need to transfer (€50 x millions of bike owners) through the government's hands and to waste peoples effort on serving the whole operation. The only reason why it is not like that is because politicians like to have our money which gives them power and makes the state bigger and bigger.
- Ma8ee 6y ago
  The administration would be more or less the same either way. The transfer of the money is a very small part of it.
- bckygldstn 6y ago
  The US used to have a small tax relief for bike commuters. I agree there'd be less overhead, but the proposed system will get people to fix their bikes and ride them. Tiny tax rebates just get lost in the wash and result in an over-complicated tax filing process. The govt isn't trying to make cyclists relatively a bit richer, it's trying to reduce air pollution.
d33lio 6y ago
Could I put this toward a new innertube for my electric unicycle? JK. I live in New York City - curious if anyone else in cities have been increasing use of their personal electric vehicle (PEV) or electric unicycle during the whole Covid 19 shutdown?
tomaszs 6y ago
Is it only me or a gov that during a pandemic that will cause a lots of lost jobs giving back 50 euro to bicycle owners is a new level of rudiculesness?
AdrianB1 6y ago
So France is taxing people to give them money back; with the costs of the overhead (processing taxes and these rebates) one can safely assume it is overall a bad deal, the tax amount is higher than the rebate so the taxpayer is on the losing end, but happy for the "free stuff". There is no free meal.
- ZoomerCretin 6y ago
  > So France is taxing people to give them money back; Yes, that's generally how governments work. You're right. Obviously the better solution is for everyone to remember the dozens of tax credits for which they're eligible so they can receive their reimbursement months afterward.
11235813213455 6y ago
I bought my neighbor a bike for 50€ in 2015, and rode more than 5000km a year (50km to 100km week) on it ever since (commuting to work, shopping, week-end long rides now that I work remotely)
prennert 6y ago
I am a bit late to the game, so maybe someone already said it in this thread. I am asuming this is intended to have people cycle to work instead of taking public transport once the lockdown is lifted. There is just one problem: As a cyclist in locked down London, the few times I needed to get to the office on almost empty(!) streets, I noticed how much more difficult social distancing on a bike is. Not while moving, but while waiting on a red light. It is usual to wait in front of the queue in the cycle waiting area just in front of the traffice light. A few times when I waited there more cyclists or scooters with open helmets would join me there, not respecting social distancing at all (pedestrians are much better at this). I think if the direction is going into pushing people into using bicycles much more than before, an education campaign needs to start that tells cyclists and scooters how they should behave on red lights. Not sure what the best solution will be, as I am sure there wont be much space. I guess most people really would prefer to take their car that naturally enforces separation to others. So I really expect the roads to become very full in the next weeks.
- Zenbit_UX 6y ago
  > I am asuming this is intended to have people cycle to work instead of taking public transport once the lockdown is lifted. No. It literally says in the subtitle, and then again in the first paragraph that this is about keeping pollution levels down.
turowicz 6y ago
But first you’d have to get to France...
jerome-jh 6y ago
French and cyclist and only discovering this :) Cyclists in France are mostly middle-upper class. Lower classes have been excluded from town centers at distances where it is difficult to commute by bike. And their work is typically in another suburb, where bike infrastructure is poor or non existing. I'm not impressed.

318 points by leonagano 6y ago

This is one of those of those proposals that allows the pats in the back to go round, but which are in fact completely useless because in effect it is just a windfall for people who did not ask for anything and who did not need any help.

soperj 6y ago
because most people who bike are rich?
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  That's beside the point. If you have a bike and puncture a tyre, you do not wait for the state to give you money before you repair it. France is one of the world's richest countries so I'm thinking that the French were not saving up to change their bikes' tyres... They've been given free money to spend on bikes, so they will spend it on bikes (repairs or not, let's be honest, because it's ridiculous to think that the French are in desperate need of bike repairs). This is just a subsidy for bike shops and bike accessories companies and it allows to spin how green the government is.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > France is one of the world's richest countries Not even in the top 20. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
    - Etheryte 6y ago
      While I don't agree with the original discussion points, I don't think this counterpoint has much merit. While France may not be "one of the richest" verbatim, there's no denying France is a rich first-world country. In the list you linked to, it ranks 25 out of 187 by the IMF estimate and similarly in other listings.
      - mytailorisrich 6y ago
        This was not a counterpoint point at all. More like bike-shedding meets strawman. There has not been any counterpoint to my comments yet, actually. My guess is because people have an emotional and ideological take on this: Cycling is good so giving money to fund repairs of bike has to be a positive measure as well. Except that it is not based on any economic or rational reasoning. I'm pretty certain that the only result will be to fund superfluous purchases or upgrades because that the standard effect of windfall subsidies.
        soperj 6y ago
        How? they aren't even giving people the money. It's literally just for repairs. If anyone here is having an emotional/ideological take it would be you.
        mytailorisrich 6y ago
        That's not an argument... "Just for repairs" is exactly my point. This is what makes it quite obvious that it won't do anything regarding uptake of cycling. It's a windfall, people will obviously be happy and may take the opportunity to upgrade to more expensive parts, but that's about it. If they needed repairs they would have had them done anyway. This is a political measure that has no practical value. There was a public transport strike in France recently and that caused an uptake in cycling. I expect the same after the end of the lockdown because people may still be wary of public transport. This subsidy brings nothing.
        soperj 6y ago
    - tester89 6y ago
      This is a silly argument[0], but for what is being discussed, what really counts is the average wealth per adult for which France does quite well at 11th (for median, 13th for mean)[1]: [0] with respect to classifying countries as rich or not as it ignores the fact that the category is not fixed in size. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...
  - jobigoud 6y ago
    What if it's the chain that's broken or a wheel is not straight or a brake cable needs replacing or the bike spent a few years in a cellar and it's not clear to the owner if it's roadworthy or not? Almost everyone has a bike but they are convenience vehicle, not everyone is a hobbyist or has the proper tools to repair it outside of patching inner tubes.

a3_nm 6y ago

> The French government is slowly bringing its lockdown to a close from May 11, with cyclists allowed back onto the roads for the first time since March. To clarify, this is somewhat inaccurate: biking is permitted, and has always been permitted, during the French lockdown, as a judgment (in French) recently confirmed: https://www.conseil-etat.fr/actualites/actualites/le-gouvernement-doit-indiquer-publiquement-que-le-velo-est-autorise-durant-le-confinement https://www.conseil-etat.fr/actualites/actualites/le-gouvern.... Cyclists were just subject to the same restrictions as anyone else -- these restrictions were the same no matter the transportation means. And yes, these measures should change by May 11, but the details are not confirmed yet.

maelito 6y ago
The french "interior ministry" lied about cycling on twitter, saying you weren't allow to go out for your daily 1h by bike. The law never said that. All the newspapers relayed this lie without checking this fact.
- chippy 6y ago
  then one can expect that the population also believed it and social pressure enacted it?
  - nraynaud 6y ago
    it's more like the police actually gave fines for it, and fighting a fine is a hassle. (in particular now, I don't think really can, probably have to wait fo re-opening).
- Signez 6y ago
  To be fair, some newspapers did checked the information (like Libération's fact-checking service, CheckNews.fr – so did NextINpact, that are quite specialised in those kind of governement overreach), but it wasn't clear if that kind of decision was part of a reasonable interpretation of the law by the minister. The Conseil d’État clarified that it wasn't.

duxup 6y ago

Is there some reason to think this has any kind of predictable outcome? I'm all for good incentives but not if there is no apparent benefit.

arrrg 6y ago

I don’t think TCO is an issue with bikes. I would estimate the TCO of a bike to be somewhere between €15 and €50 a month†. That compares favourably to cars which would be somewhere up at €350 to €700 per month, so that’s an order of magnitude off. If that payment can be an effective incentive to use the bike more that’s nice, I guess, but I’m not sure it can. Infrastructure would be the most important (and also most expensive) driver of bike usage if I had to guess. That’s not easily or quickly changed. I mean, for us the cost factor definitely is relevant. We can save so much money by not having a car and there are so few situations where we would need one (if we really need one we can rent one once a year). So sure: Sometimes a car would be practical or nice to have but for that little tiny benefit it is too expensive. So, yeah, TCO does play a role – but I don’t think €50 per year change that calculus significantly if you have already decided that a car is worth it for you. — † Between €500 and €1,500 for the bike (used for five years), between €100 and €300 per year for repairs.

Fricken 6y ago
I know enough people who don't ride their bikes because of some simple repair job they never get around to doing, often because they're mildly intimidated by it, and it's one of those jobs you can always put off until tomorrow. Money usually isn't the issue. Often it's the most trivial of obstacles that stand between people and their proclivity to adopt a particular habit.
morsch 6y ago
That's for a fancy bike, not that there's anything wrong with it. You can get by with a tenth of that if you get a "beater", which may or may not be sufficient for your urban transportation needs.
- swimfar 6y ago
  Also, the annual repair costs are probably assuming you have someone else do them. I think that's a reasonable expectation for most people, but it can be quite a bit less if you can do some of them yourself. I'm pretty sure I average less than $50/year for all maintenance costs for about 2000 miles of commuting.

zymhan 6y ago

Let's be honest, 50 Euros per person is a drop in the bucket compared to the subsidies governments give to other modes of transportation.

hk__2 6y ago
> Let's be honest, 50 Euros per person is a drop in the bucket compared to the subsidies governments give to other modes of transportation. And that’s largely sufficient. Having a bike doesn’t cost a lot per year: according to the FNAUT (Fédération des associations des usagers de transport), on average, bikers spend ~€0.21/km. An air chamber costs €5; an air pump (one-time purchase) is €10.
- simlevesque 6y ago
  Don't buy cheap air pumps. Those things need to be strong to last. They handle a lot of pressure. A 10€ air pump will break at the first fall and most have small bases so they tip easily. And when they break you must buy a new one. If you really use it, a 25€ pump will cost you way less over as little as 3 years.
  - new2628 6y ago
    I bought a pump for 5€ and we have been using (4 people) it regularly for around ~10 years. I know, inflation.
  - markus92 6y ago
    If you need to put 8 bars in your quick speedy bike? Absolutely. For a simple urban commuter bike? No difference, you aren’t going to put in more than 3,5 bars in those fat tires anyways.
    - Too 6y ago
      Commuting with 8 bars is way more convenient than 3.5. Having the right pressure is much underrated. On my way to work i roll by lots of other struggling commuters without even pedaling, looking at their poor almost flat tires. Bike pump is one of those items where you will be happy you invested a few extra bucks, a good one lasts a lifetime and you will enjoy it every time you use it, instead of being frustrated to have something that is just barely good enough. I used to have a bad one and it was so frustrating i only pulled it out once the tires were desperately flat, got a good one and now i regularly pump up my tires because it's so effortless.

GhostVII 6y ago

Do most people really need $50 for bike maintenance? I think I've spent about $15 on my beater bike over the last couple years, just to buy a new tube and maybe some wd40. For the vast majority of people I would imagine that they don't maintain their bike at all, modern bikes hold together pretty well.

abyssin 6y ago
If you want working brakes and use your bike more than twice a year, you definitely need more than buying a new tube every two years. Working brakes will save your life.
- GhostVII 6y ago
  I can lock up the front and back brakes easily with a single finger, and haven't touched them in a couple years. And I use that bike constantly.
  - abyssin 6y ago
    What type of brake is this? I've never heard of such performant and maintenanceless brakes. Drum brakes like Shimano Rollerbrake can go for thousands of kilometers with very little maintenance (although you're supposed to grease them), but they wouldn't lock up with a single finger. Disc brakes and v-brakes require to change pads every few hundred kilometers. How many kilometers do you ride every year?
    - Baeocystin 6y ago
      I've ridden my (heavy!) e-bike for a few thousand miles, and although I've replaced tubes and tires, I'm still on the original disc pads. I don't think they're anything special, just middle of the road cable actuated stuff. Do pads usually wear faster? Honest question.
      - cardinalfang 6y ago

whalesalad 6y ago

This is a very bizarre headline.

CalRobert 6y ago

People are focused on the relatively small amount here, and that's valid, but I suspect that some of the incentive here is to keep momentum in cycling going (from people avoiding transit, enjoying temporary bike infra, etc.) and trying not to lose that progress. There might be a lot of people for whom that €50 means a tuneup that gets them to take the bike out when before it would've just rusted. I mean, data would be nice, but that's the hope (I'm guessing)

aplummer 6y ago
If you’re right that money in a public health system will pay back dividends I imagine.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
duxup 6y ago
Is anyone really waiting for €50 to use or not use their bike on a regular basis? I'm highly skeptical. This seems like it will just benefit folks already doing it anyway.
- jxcl 6y ago
  Maybe not, but a properly tuned and lubricated bike is waaaayyyyy more pleasant to ride and may help to encourage increased bike use. It's easier to do stuff when it's pleasant.
- doyoureallytnot 6y ago
  I really think so. We had a pop-up bike repair workshop come around every month at my last place of work and it really increased bike use in the area.
- ploika 6y ago
  Absolutely. There are plenty of people who have a bike with a flat tyre and a rusty chain and no lights or whatever. They might go back to taking the bus or metro, but if they were offered a free service (effectively) to make cycling a viable option, they'll take it. I know loads of people who cycle to work because of Ireland's Bike To Work scheme. They can all afford a bike without help, but the extra incentive was enough to get them to start cycling.

castratikron 6y ago

The US used to have a similar program, created during the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 and subsequently removed by the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2018. Maybe it will come back as part of a new stimulus in 2020?

Pete-Codes 6y ago

Wow, really cool scheme! Would love to see it in Scotland. A friend nicely lent me his bike and I've been going for rides every day during lockdown. Really got the cycling bug now and a scheme like this would be great.

AdrianB1 6y ago
It is so easy to do: just ask your government to increase the taxes by 100 pounds and then give you back 50 pounds. Your loss, but you will be happy for the 50 pounds you get from the government, not thinking where the money come from.
- akgerber 6y ago
  Wait until you hear about 'free' parking.

SirLuxuryYacht 6y ago

Since this isn't just a €50 windfall direct deposited into their bank accounts, as in the IRS stimulus, it seems like the best approach towards getting people on bikes. If you are skeptical about whether or not this is a waste of government money, consider why you have not yet begun commuting by bike. The French just bought €300M worth of new bike highway and they want it to be used. What costs could outweigh better air quality and healthier people?

mytailorisrich 6y ago
It does not get anyone on bikes since it targets people who already have bikes. It is bizarre to think that people who have bikes were waiting for a €50 windfall before actually riding them.
- abdullahkhalids 6y ago
  When you own a 200$ second hand bike, their is a weird psychological pressure to not spend 30-50$ on repair because it is 15-25% of the actual cost of bike. I have definitely experienced it myself.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    Well it only means that these 'repairs' are not required for you to ride the bike. Or you don't plan to ride at all. Either way, the point is that this is windfall spending but does not change anything to the actual daily use of bikes.
my_username_is_ 6y ago
>What costs could outweigh better air quality and healthier people? And given France's public health system, the upfront investment in healthier people will likely pay future dividends through lower healthcare spending.

alias_neo 6y ago

It's a nice gesture but hardly solves a problem. If the payment is for a mechanic to perform some "service" on your bicycle to make it roadworthy again, and from it you gain neither the tools nor the knowledge to perform two simple, necessary tasks for a cyclist; replace a tyre/inner tube, or replace a chain; what's the long term benefit? How about put 50 euros per cyclist into a tool kit, a dozen inner tubes and some education (YouTube videos even?) so they can continue to cycle long after the 50 euro one time service has passed?

SirLuxuryYacht 6y ago
But what about the economy? Jokes aside, bike mechanics have to pay rent too.
egypturnash 6y ago
"Cycle training and temporary parking spaces will also be provided by the funds"
testing312 6y ago
> to perform two simple, necessary tasks for a cyclist; replace a tyre/inner tube, or replace a chain Never had to do either of those things, driving a bike almost daily throughout the city to school, hobbies, friends,... The few times my tire went flat, a short visit to a mechanic cost alsmost nothing
- alias_neo 6y ago
  Sure, but this funding would presumably cover you for one visit. Is that enough to convince you to start cycling if you don't already? If they want to convince people to ride, it makes sense to provide them the tools to sustain themselves. Teach a man to fish... And all that.
- Jenda_ 6y ago
  What total mileage do you have? In my experience, it will start skipping on some gears after 7000 or maybe 10000 km and then you need to change the entire drivetrain, because it got destroyer by the heavily worn-out chain. Learning to fix the flat myself was good because I can do it immediately in 10 minutes without having to walk the bike to the shop (which are closed during evenings/weekends) and wait.

Nasrudith 6y ago

Really why not just spend the money on community bicycles and docking stations, increased racks or similar efforts instead of maintenance? I don't object to promoting bicycling at all but the means puzzle me a bit.

maelito 6y ago
Because there are probably more than 100 million bikes in France, lots of them in garages are not ready to be a daily means of transportation.
hk__2 6y ago
France is doing both.
MiroF 6y ago
> community bicycles and docking stations, I have yet to see a place where those have worked very successfully - they seem to very quickly fall apart and into disuse. In China, it is even worse.
- lapnitnelav 6y ago
  We have those in Dublin. Seems to be working mostly ok and pretty cheap to use. A 20€ yearly membership and your rides are free if they last less than 30 minutes. Which means free for most folks.

profikid 6y ago

In holland you can buy a bike for 50 euros.

Raed667 6y ago
And in France as well (leboncoin.fr), I guess the idea here is to encourage people who needed a push to fix their tires or breaks to make the move and use all those bikes left collecting dust.
- _Wintermute 6y ago
  The price of second hand bikes increased massively during the transport strike, I'm not sure if they've come down yet.

cyrillevincey 6y ago

This €50 subsides is a fantasy from Cycling Weekly. No announcement was made by any local or national public authority, and no sign in the French news about this. Love from Paris anyway.

Fricken 6y ago
It was announced by the environment minister: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-cycling-idUSKBN22C2JQ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france...
Majestic121 6y ago
If you want a reputable French source : https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-gouvernemental-de-20-millions-d-euros-pour-encourager-la-pratique-du-velo-au-deconfinement_6038198_3244.html https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-go...
- cyrillevincey 6y ago
  ok my bad
itcrowd 6y ago
Here it is in Le Monde: https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-gouvernemental-de-20-millions-d-euros-pour-encourager-la-pratique-du-velo-au-deconfinement_6038198_3244.html https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/04/30/un-plan-go...

Havoc 6y ago

That’s a very innovative angle for handing out benefits. I like it

jamil7 6y ago

People in this thread are getting really hung up on the idea that someone with a bike == cycling enthusiast. In Europe a huge amount of people just own a bike. Often some beaten up thing they probably paid €30-200 for at a flea market or bike shop and use to commute or meet friends. Maybe it's fallen into a state where it's unrideable. The €50 is just a simple nudge for all those people to get it roadworthy so they can start using it again or sell it to somebody who will use it.

_jal 6y ago
> the idea that someone with a bike == cycling enthusiast Very common rhetorical technique. Not everyone who does this is calculating; a lot of people just parrot what they hear. But the goal of the messaging is to make marginalize, to make it sound like some tiny group whining about their hobby, which inconveniences "normal" (car driving) people. Turn it into a game - start talking about the motorist lobby as just another special interest, compare them to some other lobby your conversationalist will find distasteful - guns, animal rights, mountaintop removal, something will push their buttons. If you do it well, the cognitive dissonance is fun to watch. I don't ride my bike much anymore; have had repeated bad experiences with shithead motorists (live in SF) and just won't risk it anymore. But when I did, I never spent more than $100 on a bike, because it was just going to be stolen within a year.
- asjw 6y ago
  This is true, but bike market in US (for example) amounts to 47 billions with a prediction of 75 billions in 2025 Car market is much richer but most of it comes from second-hand retail, which is practically non existent for bikes. For comparison 45 billions is half of the market size of the tobacco industry and about the same size of the gun market. Not bad for an hobby and more similar to a lobby itself.
NicoJuicy 6y ago
> Often some beaten up thing they probably paid €30-200 for at a flea market or bike shop In Belgium, Belgian people buy mostly new ones in the range of 500-1000. People who don't earn much or students, buy the cheap/used bikes you mentioned. Electrical bikes are > 2000 € and pretty popular. In general, a whole family can bike together and it's very popular during the summer. We can bike were-ever we want during Covid as long as it's in the 25 km. range. I actually have 2 bikes ( 1 normal and 1 race bike) and a bike lending subscription when friends come over ( 1 € / bike / 24 hours for 12€ / year)

DonHopkins 6y ago

"we want the bicycle to be the queen of deconfinement" I'll bet that sounds really beautiful in the original French.

Drup 6y ago
In french, "la petite reine" (i.e., "the little queen") is a fancy literary idiom for a bicycle. Also, "bicyclette" is a feminine noun.
bovine3dom 6y ago
« Nous voulons que cette période fasse franchir une étape dans la culture vélo, et que la bicyclette soit la petite reine du déconfinement en quelque sorte » [1] I think the English version is nicer. More succinct. Edit: ah, ok, my rudimentary knowledge of French meant that I missed out on a pun as another reply to your comment points out. I take it back: a pun trumps all brevity. [1]: https://fr.news.yahoo.com/d%C3%A9confinement-plan-20-millions-deuros-222230740.html https://fr.news.yahoo.com/d%C3%A9confinement-plan-20-million...

frankohn 6y ago

Adoption of cycling would require more serious actions like improving the road system for the bicycles so that cyclist are safe from the cars. The cycling should be also a pleasant activity so that people can do it naturally, without being forced. I am in France and I am enjoying now the reduction of car traffic and the improvement of air quality but this is going to end as soon as the confinement is over.

rytis 6y ago
Same here in London. We still can enjoy relatively car free roads, but this is definitely going back to "normal" where cycling becomes quite close to a Russian roulette type of activity... I'd like to commute on a bike, but I'm not that suicidal (I've clocked in 20k km on London roads commuting, but now it's too far, too dangerous).

diebeforei485 6y ago

I'd like to see other cities doing something like this. Although a typical annual tune-up costs closer to $100.

cawlin 6y ago

People seem motivated to keep their bikes maintained if they don't have to pay for it themselves from my experience. In Canada I've volunteered at free bike tune up stations for many years, they are usually set up at popular summer events or at community centres. We get a lot of people who aren't confident enough to do basic things like adjust brakes, gears or even change a flat tire. Most of the time they've simply rode their bike and dealt with poor performance or issues until it becomes a problem or they feel it is unsafe to ride. For these folks getting someone to do extremely basic yearly maintenance would keep them happily riding for a long time.

touisteur 6y ago

The region around Paris decided to give a 500eur subvention for ebikes and 600eur for ecargos. One per adult person if you live in Île de France. Great (waiting for the check right now) but I'm not sure it didn't jack the prices up a bit :-\

londons_explore 6y ago

Other similar government initiatives always lead to the providers hiking the price of all repairs and maintenance work by €50... I'm not sure quite why, since presumably market forces should still work to make people go to the cheapest bike shop to get as much value as possible for their €50, but that never seems to happen... Example: grants to give discounts of ~£300 to install EV charging points in people's houses simply led to the price of installation rising by £300 overnight.

gnopgnip 6y ago

This seems like a really cheap way to get the desired outcome, more people exercising

nie100sowny 6y ago

Instead of €50. The government could make €70 tax relief. Then there would be no need to transfer (€50 x millions of bike owners) through the government's hands and to waste peoples effort on serving the whole operation. The only reason why it is not like that is because politicians like to have our money which gives them power and makes the state bigger and bigger.

Ma8ee 6y ago
The administration would be more or less the same either way. The transfer of the money is a very small part of it.
bckygldstn 6y ago
The US used to have a small tax relief for bike commuters. I agree there'd be less overhead, but the proposed system will get people to fix their bikes and ride them. Tiny tax rebates just get lost in the wash and result in an over-complicated tax filing process. The govt isn't trying to make cyclists relatively a bit richer, it's trying to reduce air pollution.

d33lio 6y ago

Could I put this toward a new innertube for my electric unicycle? JK. I live in New York City - curious if anyone else in cities have been increasing use of their personal electric vehicle (PEV) or electric unicycle during the whole Covid 19 shutdown?

tomaszs 6y ago

Is it only me or a gov that during a pandemic that will cause a lots of lost jobs giving back 50 euro to bicycle owners is a new level of rudiculesness?

AdrianB1 6y ago

So France is taxing people to give them money back; with the costs of the overhead (processing taxes and these rebates) one can safely assume it is overall a bad deal, the tax amount is higher than the rebate so the taxpayer is on the losing end, but happy for the "free stuff". There is no free meal.

ZoomerCretin 6y ago
> So France is taxing people to give them money back; Yes, that's generally how governments work. You're right. Obviously the better solution is for everyone to remember the dozens of tax credits for which they're eligible so they can receive their reimbursement months afterward.

11235813213455 6y ago

I bought my neighbor a bike for 50€ in 2015, and rode more than 5000km a year (50km to 100km week) on it ever since (commuting to work, shopping, week-end long rides now that I work remotely)

prennert 6y ago

I am a bit late to the game, so maybe someone already said it in this thread. I am asuming this is intended to have people cycle to work instead of taking public transport once the lockdown is lifted. There is just one problem: As a cyclist in locked down London, the few times I needed to get to the office on almost empty(!) streets, I noticed how much more difficult social distancing on a bike is. Not while moving, but while waiting on a red light. It is usual to wait in front of the queue in the cycle waiting area just in front of the traffice light. A few times when I waited there more cyclists or scooters with open helmets would join me there, not respecting social distancing at all (pedestrians are much better at this). I think if the direction is going into pushing people into using bicycles much more than before, an education campaign needs to start that tells cyclists and scooters how they should behave on red lights. Not sure what the best solution will be, as I am sure there wont be much space. I guess most people really would prefer to take their car that naturally enforces separation to others. So I really expect the roads to become very full in the next weeks.

Zenbit_UX 6y ago
> I am asuming this is intended to have people cycle to work instead of taking public transport once the lockdown is lifted. No. It literally says in the subtitle, and then again in the first paragraph that this is about keeping pollution levels down.

turowicz 6y ago

But first you’d have to get to France...

jerome-jh 6y ago

French and cyclist and only discovering this :) Cyclists in France are mostly middle-upper class. Lower classes have been excluded from town centers at distances where it is difficult to commute by bike. And their work is typically in another suburb, where bike infrastructure is poor or non existing. I'm not impressed.