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Why is this even a thing? <rant> Because the electric utilities don't understand, and can't/won't adapt to, the electrification of transportation. BEVs from

Why is this even a thing? <rant> Because the electric utilities don't understand, and can't/won't adapt to, the electrification of transportation. BEVs from skateboard- to class 8 truck- size are a) an unimaginably vast opportunity for electricity distributors. They're going to get ALL THE GAS STATION BUSINESS in the next generation. b) a time-shiftable load. For the BEV energy business to be viable at scale the time-shifting technology is mandatory. They need smart ways to spread out the electric load. If every good doobie battery car owner says, "I'll tell mine to charge at midnight" guess what happens when they all start drawing 8kW at midnight? The peaking generators have to kick on and the power gets really expensive. And "frequency control ancillary services?" They get costly with sudden large loads. Tesla's already figured out a localized approach to the load-control: I now tell my car what time I need it rather than when to start charging, and it picks the time to start charging. But for load-balancing work at scale is going to require, basically, real-time capacity auctioning. In Norway, the electric utilities use the FM radio text channel (the one that announces songs on fancy radios) to announce current electricity rates, and their meters pick it up and use it. That's a start. If the electricity distributors won't build this smart grid, I guess third-party companies have to step into the breach. It's a lot of hands in the cookie jar. </rant>

ragebol 6y ago
> the FM radio text channel (the one that announces songs on fancy radios) That's RDS. It would also make more sense to install batteries like a Tesla Powerwall if it knows it's cheap to load it up now. I expect that exposing residential customers to the price fluctuations will help to flatten out the 'duck curve' that you typically see with heavy PV generation. It makes much more sense then to install such home batteries to dump your PV-electricity in when selling it directly doesn't pay much. Moreover when you can sell the stored electricity at a higher rate when it's needed. Not sure if this set up would prevent transmission capacity limits from being hit as well. The whole thing, and how its set up, is quite interesting from a basic game theoretic view.
- beckingz 6y ago
  Transmission capacity could be more effectively utilized if prices increased as capacity reached max utilization. This would be extremely unpopular for most residential customers though. Probably better to set it up as a rebate scheme where people get a credit if their EV charger is enrolled in the local Virtual Power Plant
MrsPeaches 6y ago
They are though. A lot of large power generators/distributors have battery and EV teams. Tbf they are still only 1 or 2 people in a comapny with 100s/1000s employees but they are there working on this problem. NB. a lot of the work being done on this is financial modelling rather than any technical development, so it may be that the tech just isn't there for them to implement.
antsar 6y ago
> electric utilities use the FM radio text channel [..] and their meters pick it up and use it. Hope those updates are cryptographically signed. Would be unfortunate if your car refuses to charge because someone dropped an FM transmitter outside...
- adrianN 6y ago
  I don't think that's a very realistic threat model. There are already a lot of things you can break with a pirate transmitter, and from what I hear enforcement of the relevant laws is very strict.
  - antsar 6y ago
    I'm imagining a raspberry-pi-sized FM transmitter in someone's bushes causing their (and only their) smart electronics to behave differently. Unless the victim is savvy enough to detect it, or the utility company is concerned enough to investigate, it seems viable (especially as a short-term attack). Good smarthome gear shouldn't cause any harm (or major inconvenience, from that matter) just because the electricity price changes, but we all know the "S" in "IoT" stands for "security"...
    - zitterbewegung 6y ago
      Go try taking a FM transmitter and attempt to disrupt a local FM station. Guess what you can’t because they are transmitting 100x of your power.
      - RealityVoid 6y ago
        If your transmitter is closer than theirs, you can probably overcome this.
      - tengbretson 6y ago
        If you're not limited to only the power of transmitter you can legally buy, then yes, you absolutely can.
AmericanChopper 6y ago
> an unimaginably vast opportunity for electricity distributors. They're going to get ALL THE GAS STATION BUSINESS in the next generation. This isn’t at all obvious. Putting aside the fact that it’s not exactly obvious when non-ICE cars will take over the majority of the market from ICE cars (I wouldn’t bet on it happening before my yet to be born children get their drivers licenses), it’s definitely not obvious that electric cars will be the ones to do it. I’ve driven both battery electric cars and hydrogen cars, and hydrogen cars offer a far superior driving experience. Charging an electric car simply sucks. It’s also not clear how you’d expect to manage charging stations at scale. It take 75 minutes for a full charge on a Tesla, nobody enjoys waiting that long for their car to charge, and the amount of Superchargers you’d need across the country/world would be insane if a majority of cars were electric. Hydrogen cars don’t have that problem, and they don’t have the same hard constraints on range. You can say that hydrogen car tech, or the infrastructure, isn’t there yet. But it’s not there for electric cars either. If you want some evidence that hydrogen cars have serious potential, Elon Musk described them as “mind-bogglingly stupid”.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  What makes you say the infrastructure for electric cars isn't there? The most important factor is the infrastructure that the consumer needs to deal with. A 220v adapter costs a couple grand to install at your house, which is small in comparison to a new car. The electrical grid expansion is abstracted from the user so isn't really factored in.
  - Scoundreller 6y ago
    It shouldn’t even cost that much. The trick is to get a « dryer socket » installed in your garage. Not an « EV » plug, otherwise the price goes up like flowers or a limo when you say « wedding ».
  - mperham 6y ago
    Your price is out of date. I just had a 14-50 plug installed which will charge at 9kW for $700 (Basic 120V outlets will do 1kW).
api 6y ago
It could also be that electric utilities are incredibly heavily regulated government backed monopolies or even actual government agencies that are strictly regulated about what business they can and cannot do.
ashtonkem 6y ago
It should be fairly easy to incentivize good charging habits. Offer a small discount on per kWh costs in exchange for allowing the car to shift around when it can charge. I suspect that most people don’t really care when their car charges, they just need it to work in the morning.
- floatrock 6y ago
  We already have those incentives. If you have an EV in California, an EV time-of-use rate offers really cheap pricing after midnight. When we've run the numbers, it can save people in the Bay Area up to $1,000/yr. Over the course of a lease, that's basically another EV tax refund on top of all the other benefits.
phkahler 6y ago
What you describe about load leveling and cost optimization is ultimately a race to the bottom. Chargers and batteries are already falling in price, and people can charge at home so the only place we really need charging is at truck stops and such on long distance routes.
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  Expending and improving your national grid to support that - is not going to be cheap or easy.
3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago
> In Norway, the electric utilities use the FM radio text channel (the one that announces songs on fancy radios) to announce current electricity rates, and their meters pick it up and use it. That's a start. Does Norway have a static electricity price? With PG&E the cost of electricity varies wildly household to household, and you need to decipher a labyrinth of different rate and “time of use plans”, and there’s baseline allowances... the whole thing is opaque. There’s never actually a “here’s what electricity cost right now” true answer.

ragebol 6y ago

> the FM radio text channel (the one that announces songs on fancy radios) That's RDS. It would also make more sense to install batteries like a Tesla Powerwall if it knows it's cheap to load it up now. I expect that exposing residential customers to the price fluctuations will help to flatten out the 'duck curve' that you typically see with heavy PV generation. It makes much more sense then to install such home batteries to dump your PV-electricity in when selling it directly doesn't pay much. Moreover when you can sell the stored electricity at a higher rate when it's needed. Not sure if this set up would prevent transmission capacity limits from being hit as well. The whole thing, and how its set up, is quite interesting from a basic game theoretic view.

beckingz 6y ago
Transmission capacity could be more effectively utilized if prices increased as capacity reached max utilization. This would be extremely unpopular for most residential customers though. Probably better to set it up as a rebate scheme where people get a credit if their EV charger is enrolled in the local Virtual Power Plant

MrsPeaches 6y ago

They are though. A lot of large power generators/distributors have battery and EV teams. Tbf they are still only 1 or 2 people in a comapny with 100s/1000s employees but they are there working on this problem. NB. a lot of the work being done on this is financial modelling rather than any technical development, so it may be that the tech just isn't there for them to implement.

antsar 6y ago

> electric utilities use the FM radio text channel [..] and their meters pick it up and use it. Hope those updates are cryptographically signed. Would be unfortunate if your car refuses to charge because someone dropped an FM transmitter outside...

adrianN 6y ago
I don't think that's a very realistic threat model. There are already a lot of things you can break with a pirate transmitter, and from what I hear enforcement of the relevant laws is very strict.
- antsar 6y ago
  I'm imagining a raspberry-pi-sized FM transmitter in someone's bushes causing their (and only their) smart electronics to behave differently. Unless the victim is savvy enough to detect it, or the utility company is concerned enough to investigate, it seems viable (especially as a short-term attack). Good smarthome gear shouldn't cause any harm (or major inconvenience, from that matter) just because the electricity price changes, but we all know the "S" in "IoT" stands for "security"...
  - zitterbewegung 6y ago
    Go try taking a FM transmitter and attempt to disrupt a local FM station. Guess what you can’t because they are transmitting 100x of your power.
    - RealityVoid 6y ago
      If your transmitter is closer than theirs, you can probably overcome this.
    - tengbretson 6y ago
      If you're not limited to only the power of transmitter you can legally buy, then yes, you absolutely can.

AmericanChopper 6y ago

> an unimaginably vast opportunity for electricity distributors. They're going to get ALL THE GAS STATION BUSINESS in the next generation. This isn’t at all obvious. Putting aside the fact that it’s not exactly obvious when non-ICE cars will take over the majority of the market from ICE cars (I wouldn’t bet on it happening before my yet to be born children get their drivers licenses), it’s definitely not obvious that electric cars will be the ones to do it. I’ve driven both battery electric cars and hydrogen cars, and hydrogen cars offer a far superior driving experience. Charging an electric car simply sucks. It’s also not clear how you’d expect to manage charging stations at scale. It take 75 minutes for a full charge on a Tesla, nobody enjoys waiting that long for their car to charge, and the amount of Superchargers you’d need across the country/world would be insane if a majority of cars were electric. Hydrogen cars don’t have that problem, and they don’t have the same hard constraints on range. You can say that hydrogen car tech, or the infrastructure, isn’t there yet. But it’s not there for electric cars either. If you want some evidence that hydrogen cars have serious potential, Elon Musk described them as “mind-bogglingly stupid”.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
What makes you say the infrastructure for electric cars isn't there? The most important factor is the infrastructure that the consumer needs to deal with. A 220v adapter costs a couple grand to install at your house, which is small in comparison to a new car. The electrical grid expansion is abstracted from the user so isn't really factored in.
- Scoundreller 6y ago
  It shouldn’t even cost that much. The trick is to get a « dryer socket » installed in your garage. Not an « EV » plug, otherwise the price goes up like flowers or a limo when you say « wedding ».
- mperham 6y ago
  Your price is out of date. I just had a 14-50 plug installed which will charge at 9kW for $700 (Basic 120V outlets will do 1kW).

api 6y ago

It could also be that electric utilities are incredibly heavily regulated government backed monopolies or even actual government agencies that are strictly regulated about what business they can and cannot do.

ashtonkem 6y ago

It should be fairly easy to incentivize good charging habits. Offer a small discount on per kWh costs in exchange for allowing the car to shift around when it can charge. I suspect that most people don’t really care when their car charges, they just need it to work in the morning.

floatrock 6y ago
We already have those incentives. If you have an EV in California, an EV time-of-use rate offers really cheap pricing after midnight. When we've run the numbers, it can save people in the Bay Area up to $1,000/yr. Over the course of a lease, that's basically another EV tax refund on top of all the other benefits.

phkahler 6y ago

What you describe about load leveling and cost optimization is ultimately a race to the bottom. Chargers and batteries are already falling in price, and people can charge at home so the only place we really need charging is at truck stops and such on long distance routes.

C1sc0cat 6y ago
Expending and improving your national grid to support that - is not going to be cheap or easy.

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 6y ago

> In Norway, the electric utilities use the FM radio text channel (the one that announces songs on fancy radios) to announce current electricity rates, and their meters pick it up and use it. That's a start. Does Norway have a static electricity price? With PG&E the cost of electricity varies wildly household to household, and you need to decipher a labyrinth of different rate and “time of use plans”, and there’s baseline allowances... the whole thing is opaque. There’s never actually a “here’s what electricity cost right now” true answer.