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House cats have more impact on local wildlife than wild predators
- Kaiyou 6y agoIt's a cat, so it can do no wrong. If the cat is pleased by killing wildlife, the wildlife has to die.
- shrimp_emoji 6y agoDownvoting someone for suffering from toxoplasmosis is ableism.
- leetcrew 6y agowrong thread?
- Kaiyou 6y agoLook up what toxoplasmosis is.
- vntok 6y agoNope, look it up
- Kognito 6y agoI think it's a lighthearted reference to studies which have demonstrated possible, albeit minor, psychological and physiological effects on humans after infection with the Toxoplasma gondii parasite [1]. In rodent models, infection appears to exert effects which make the rodent more likely to be killed and eaten by felines in order to complete the infection cycle of the parasite in the digestive tract of the feline. The suggestion being that similar effects might be occurring in humans, particularly cat owners who are likely to be carriers of the parasite, manifesting in increased positive behaviours towards the cat. [1] https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/33/3/757/1882426 https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/33/3/...
- Kaiyou 6y agoToxoplasmosis is a hateful term invented by dog people to discredit people serving the cat master race.
- TomJansen 6y agoIf humans are pleased by killing cats, the cats have to die
- Kaiyou 6y agoHumans that hurt cats have to be put to death.
- Tiktaalik 6y ago> "The big concern is where we have an overlap of people and cats with native species that are small and vulnerable," Kays said. Kind of the key question here. Does your local jurisdiction have native species that live in towns and cities that are vulnerable? Some places are different than others. In some places the typical small city bird may even be an introduced species. In New Zealand for example yes absolutely. Other places maybe not so much... It is absolutely wild to me how laissez faire Kiwis are about the right to have their cats roam while at the same time being so militant against other mammals (including dogs!).
- 11235813213455 6y ago> Other places maybe not so much... You probably don't notice them, all little birds, insects, lizards, hedgehogs (I saw a cat mauling one once, same with lizards and birds),.. Actually, in my city, near woods, there's a small outdoor refuge for "wild cats" as the woman I talked to call them. She was feeding them, so I wonder how wild they are and how much they harm the local ecosystem, on top of all the other pets I think there's an unhealthy addiction and love for pets. If you like animals, you could let them live normally in their natural habitat, and observe them once in a while. I hope this mentality will change
- __s 6y agoDomestic cats have a natural habitat in households. Owners who keep their cats indoors or on leash outside don't impact wildlife. Cultural education of not letting cats roam is likely to have more progress than arguing for banning pets. Besides, staying indoors is healthier for cats anyways
- leetcrew 6y agoit's kind of weird to talk about the "natural habitat" of an animal that has been domesticated over thousands of years. it doesn't seem obvious that the modern cat (or especially dog) would be better off in the "wild" than living with humans.
- jeroenhd 6y agoOf course animals like cats will kill more in a given area if they don't stray out. I also don't see very much of a problem with that, given that most densely populated neighbourhoods have a want for large amounts of rodents and birds.
- bangonkeyboard 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife "As an invasive species and superpredator, they do considerable ecological damage. In Australia, hunting by cats helped to drive at least 20 native mammals to extinction, and continues to threaten at least 124 more. Their introduction has caused the extinction of at least 33 endemic species on islands throughout the world. Feral and domestic cats kill billions of birds in the United States every year, where songbird populations continue to decline."
- kenned3 6y agoAs a dog owner, i have always wondered why my indoor dog needs an annual license, while my neighbourhood is saturated in unlicensed "wild" cats?? Seems like utter crap, and it is clear the cats are killing the local birds.
- Spoppys 6y agoBecause dogs pose a substantially greater threat to human life than cats do.
- djrogers 6y agoI’m sorry, but that’s a severe over-generalization. My 6lb 3-legged rescue is far less of a threat to humans than even a small kitten...
- momokoko 6y agoUnless that rescue has rabies.
- oh_sigh 6y agoIt seems more likely that a free-roaming cat will get rabies than someones 6 lbs lap dog. Especially because cats (at least in my area) don't require licensing or rabies shots like dogs do.
- katbyte 6y agoCats don’t typically attack humans, dogs do, frequently.
- arendtio 6y agoCats do too, maybe not as frequently, but I think the important factor is, that the damage is not as severe in most cases. It probably is related to the size of the animals. If there would be more tiger-sized cats and more Chihuahua sized-dogs it would most likely be different.
- JadeNB 6y agoThe title was truncated ("predators" to "pred").
- HarryHirsch 6y agoYou ask how much wildlife there is in urban and suburban areas to begin with. The wildlife that lives there is all generalist, if a cat takes a mouse, squirrel, starling or blackbird it's a bit bloody but not really important in the great scheme of things.
- ranDOMscripts 6y agoThe butterflies & migrating birds would likely beg to differ.
- lostlogin 6y agoZealandia in Wellington, New Zealand has been a key part of a massive change in suburban wildlife. The changes made have resulted in many more birds (including quite rare ones) in the centre of town. https://www.visitzealandia.com/ https://www.visitzealandia.com/
- jfoucher 6y agoThe only effective solution I have found so far to prevent my cat from hunting too many small animals is to have her wear a bell. Is seems that prey are scared away and manage to escape. Before we put it on we used to find dead mice, lizards and birds everyday in the garden or in front of the door...
- Kalium 6y agoSome cats seem to take this as a challenge. I've definitely seen cats that both wear bells and kill lots of birds.
- 93po 6y agoWhy not keep her indoors? It's much safer for her and doubles life expectancy and doesn't contribute to the problem being discussed
- majkinetor 6y agoNo "solution" is needed, there is no problem.
- Tade0 6y agoFor this reason we walk our cat. With some training (and some - not all - cats) you can even get rid of the leash and let the animal roam whilst maintaining visual contact. It's very different from walking a dog. Ours usually hides in his favourite spot and just sits there for 20 minutes straight, then takes his usual route, sniffing and rubbing his face on places where apparently other cats have been. The upside is that you only need to do that once every 2-3 days. Now that we're on quarantine he's been calling out other cats from the balcony. Fortunately on Monday we'll be allowed outside, so he'll get the chance to catch up with his buddies - or actually - their scents.
- hanniabu 6y agoI'm what you would call an accidental crazy cat person that started off feeding one feral cat but was unable to catch and get fixed and wound up multiplying (finally have it under control). One of the cats was great and would just naturally walk with you. We live about a block away from a grocery store and it would walk with us to the start of the parking lot where we'd just tell him stay and he lays down and waits until we come back and walks with us back to the house. People would always be amused seeing this and how much it resembled the behavior of a dog. Probably one of the best cats we've had.
- janderland 6y agoMy family owner over 20 cats (some died) before I turned 18. Same reason: we didn’t fix the first female. My favorite cat would always take walks with me around the block. She passed away while I was in college. Really showed me how cool of a pet a cat can be.
- dkdk8283 6y ago> Fortunately on Monday we'll be allowed outside I would suggest you should go outside anyway.
- bashallah 6y agoI walk my two cats every morning, neither use a leash. Trained them to run to the front door if they get scared. I use sounds like snapping or clapping for re-direction or warnings. They’re even trained to return to the front door when I say “Haus”. Then a treat when they are good, which is everyday! Cat’s do very well with a solid routine.
- somewhereoutth 6y agoApparently cats can catch novel Coronavirus - there is a danger they may become natural reservoirs, in which case we may have to get rid of them.
- josephorjoe 6y agoApparently humans can catch novel Coronavirus . . .
- twojacobtwo 6y agoWhat was your motivation in posting this?
- adjkant 6y agoSeems like that is mostly false at best: > "CDC is aware of a very small number of pets, including dogs and cats, outside the United States reportedexternal icon to be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 after close contact with people with COVID-19. CDC has not received any reports of pets becoming sick with COVID-19 in the United States. To date, there is no evidence that pets can spread the virus to people. The first caseexternal icon of an animal testing positive for the virus that causes COVID-19 in the United States was a tiger with a respiratory illness at a zoo in New York City. Samples from this tiger were taken and tested after several lions and tigers at the zoo showed signs of respiratory illness. Public health officials believe these large cats became sick after being exposed to a zoo employee who was actively shedding virus. This investigation is ongoing." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- aaron695 6y agoIf you find it concerning work on cat to human covid-19 transmission. Governments seem to be ignoring this because politically it would be a nightmare. If it transmits cat-cat(seems proven) and cat-human, killing all the cats would save lives, how many cats hang out at nursing homes?
- fit2rule 6y agoCats and dogs are slaves.
- Jazgot 6y agoMy cat doesn't care about wild life at all. She spends a lot of time in the garden and birds even have learned that they can walk near her without any issues.
- nannal 6y agoThat could be inadvertently teaching the wild life they can approach any cat which will have the expected result.
- Jazgot 6y agoThat could, but most likely it is just teaching them that my quite specific cat in my garden is different. They are clever beasts.
- waynecochran 6y agoMy cat catches mice, birds, baby rabbits, lizards, snakes. Half the time she eats the heads off the mouse / baby rabbit -- the other half of the time she brings them in the house to play with. She is a murderer, but she is a cuddly murderer.
- Jazgot 6y agoShe brings them to the house to teach you how to hunt.
- theshrike79 6y agoThe local rabbits learned the same thing about our dog, he just loved to chase them away to see them run and then just strutted back proudly. He had no intention or drive to actually catch them. The rabbits got wise of this in a week or two and just took a quick sprint and resumed eating instead of running all the way to the woods =)
- kyleblarson 6y agohttps://www.wsj.com/articles/stay-home-back-to-work-a-dog-and-cat-debate-re-opening-america-11587138058 https://www.wsj.com/articles/stay-home-back-to-work-a-dog-an...
- vlan0 6y agoIt's yet another problem that relies on each individual to make decisions that benefit the whole.
- waynecochran 6y agoThere is a lady down the street that feeds raccoons. Raccoons cary several horrible diseases: https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/baylisascaris/prevent.html https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/baylisascaris/prevent.html Occasionally I burn their latrines cause these diseases scare me to death. NO NOT FEED RACCOONS! Walt Disney is lying to you -- they are nasty creatures to have around.
- chiefalchemist 6y agoSome may want to read this as well. From The Atlantic circa 2013. The End of Cats: An Interview With the New Zealand Economist Calling to Eliminate All Kitties https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-end-of-cats-an-interview-with-the-new-zealand-economist-calling-to-eliminate-all-kitties/272474/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-end...
- tyjen 6y agoKill all feral and free roaming invasive, domestic cat species. Domestic cats belong indoors and not outside.
- zelon88 6y agoYou surely don't mean other people's properly identifiable pets, do you?
- thomk 6y agoIf they are on my property and are destructive or a danger to me? You bet.
- zelon88 6y agoI've had to deal with wild rodents in my garbage using violent (but less than lethal) means, but known house pets with collars or tags that belong to your neighbors? I mean, how much damage could a 7 pound cat possibly do to your property?
- ranDOMscripts 6y agoEliminate all of the wildlife in the yard? Some people actually prefer a diverse array of wildlife over a neighbor's pet.
- zelon88 6y agoSeems passive aggressive to eliminate your neighbors pet. I'm not a social person, and I typically let me neighbors do as they please (as I want them to do with me) but if I have a problem with an animal I'll approach the owner. If my neighbor kills my cat and makes my kids cry without talking to me about it first, I'm probably going to create problems for that neighbor that involve the local police department.
- lostlogin 6y agoThere is a cat that comes into our house through our cat flap and sprays. It also does this on our door step and all over our garden.
- candyman 6y agoI used to battle with mice all the time at my little cabin in the woods and then a neighbor moved in with a cat that "hunts" outside my cabin all night. Haven't had a mouse problem in years. I've never seen a dead bird anywhere and the cat never seems to hunt during the day.
- e40 6y agoI had a destructive mouse and rat problem (chewing things in the walls) until a cat adopted us.
- Leary 6y agoIt's amazing how adoptable cats are both to domesticated life and to life in the wild. Is there a way for evolution to work its magic and for species hunted by cats to develop countermeasures?
- vharuck 6y agoThis is the way evolution works. The species of the future don't come from responsive adaptation, but from not dying before reproduction. Now with a new cause of death, those species are in danger of no longer existing like nearly all species across history.
- 11235813213455 6y agosadly cats are not only good predators, they're cherished and fed by people, and just go hunting for exercise. A bit of an unfair advantage
- jld 6y agoIs there any ethical and easy way to keep cats out of my yard? I live in an suburban single family neighborhood where the houses are close together. (5000sq lots) There are 3 or 4 different solitary cats I see slinking through my yard from time to time. They all seem like outdoor house cats as opposed to feral cats. I try to hiss at them and scare them off but they come back. Is there a method that will encourage them to avoid my yard?
- bowlich 6y agoSkunk traps and cat food. If cat's get into my traps, they just get dumped at the pound. Their owners can go pick up their little invasive darlings there. But they usually don't get near my yard due to the hounds guarding the chickens.
- bobmaxup 6y agoYou should just shoot them, as you are halfway there. https://www.alleycat.org/resources/cat-fatalities-and-secrecy-in-u-s-pounds-and-shelters/ https://www.alleycat.org/resources/cat-fatalities-and-secrec...
- hiram112 6y agoI understand it's your right to control your own yard, but if someone trapped my own cat and dumped it off at the pound, I wouldn't be too happy. If it were my cat who kept being dumped off at the pound, after being attracted to the cat food you purposefully left out to trap him, I'm guessing you'd start having some strange issues with your cable / fiber line constantly being cut.
- missedthecue 6y agoDepends how you define ethical...
- theli0nheart 6y agoYes, but it’ll take some work. Get a dog.
- xenospn 6y ago
- dghughes 6y agoThen again how many types of birds are invasive species in the Americas? Pigeons, doves, starlings, sparrows, finches and I'm sure many more. For mammals some mice, rabbit and squirrel species are invasive species too. Invasive cats killing invasive animals. It seems cats like small birds and mammals that tend to be invasive.
- 11235813213455 6y agoThe problem is they don't really target invasive species, except maybe squirrels, from what I can see. They don't seem very interested in pigeons for example, while they clearly chase and sometimes kill nightingale, robins, magpies, and many other little birds around, lizards too, probably some butterflies who didn't ask for it too, all of them participate actively in the ecosystem health
- rjsw 6y agoThe cats of my neighbour kill pigeons, even with bells on the cats' collars.
- pjc50 6y agoThis, incidentally, is why I don't take people who make the "wind turbines kill birds" argument seriously. It's not false, but the number is very small compared to those killed by domestic cats and window collisions. So the loss is minimal provided they're not in a breeding area for an endangered species.
- tachyonbeam 6y agoI'm also thinking that birds will adapt because it seems like a relatively simple change in their behavior would fix the problem. Natural selection will play its course. The birds who are dumb enough to fly into wind turbines will get weeded out. Future generations of bird will be more fearful of wind turbines. This kind of selection can start to take place over a relatively short span of time. See peppered moth evolution [1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
- quicklime 6y agoHow long would it take for natural selection to play its course though? Moths live for maybe a year, while a bird might live for a few decades. And the soot from the industrial revolution would've covered the entire environment for a peppered moth, whereas many birds fly over incredibly large distances, which wind turbines will only cover a small fraction of.
- rwmj 6y agoThere were articles a while back about birds evolving shorter wings and larger brains to avoid cars: Wings: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/are-birds-evolving-to-avoid-cars-3530859/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/are-birds-evolving... Brains: https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2017/03/30/small-brained-birds-get-killed-by-cars https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2017/03/30/...
- grawprog 6y agoWind turbines also kill bats, http://www.batcon.org/resources/for-specific-issues/wind-power http://www.batcon.org/resources/for-specific-issues/wind-pow... >Current research suggests that the overwhelming majority of bat fatalities are caused by collisions with turbine blades. There is some evidence to suggest that a phenomenon known as barotrauma may result in a small proportion of bat deaths, as well. Barotrauma involves tissue damage to air-containing structures, such as lungs, caused by rapid or excessive pressure change. Air pressure changes can occur at the edges of moving turbine blades and may help explain some bat fatalities. >Between 2000 and 2011, an estimated 650,000 to 1.3 million bats have died from collisions with wind turbines in the United States and Canada (Arnett and Baerwald 2013). Additionally, as many as 400,000 estimated fatalities may have occurred in 2012. >in the U.S. and Canada, at least 24 species of bats have been reported as killed by wind turbines. The hoary bat (Lasiurus cinereus), eastern red bat (Lasiurus borealis) and silver-haired bat (Lasionycteris noctivagans), all migratory tree bats, account for nearly 78% of the kills north of Mexico. The hoary bat accounts for 38% of the fatalities. A new study that looked at hoary bat mortality at wind energy facilities during 2014 revealed that populations of the species may plunge by a staggering 90 percent in the next 50 years if no action is taken. >At some sites in the Midwest and Eastern U.S., species that are already battered by White-nose Syndrome (WNS), can account for up to 60% of wind-energy fatalities. Two federally endangered species, the Hawaiian hoary bat (Lasiurus cinereus semotus) and the Indiana myotis (Myotis sodalis), also have been killed by turbines.
- pgtan 6y agoWhat is this mass psychosis of feeling the urge to own a dog or cat anyway? And how it comes, that environmentalists don't get loud on the harm on nature caused by domestic cats and dogs?
- lostlogin 6y agoIt’s a coming pain point in New Zealand. We aim to become predator free as a country. https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/predator-free-2050/ https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/predator-fr...
- BostonFern 6y agoI've spent a lot of time living around wild cats, and I've yet to see a cat hunt a bird. Of course cats do hunt birds, but I'm very curious about how these figures are reached, in this case, how reliable those isotope studies are. Incidentally, here's a critical take of a study on the amount of wildlife cats kill that made headlines in 2013 cited in the article, also by NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we-really-know-that-cats-kill-by-the-billions-not-so-fast https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we...
- hohloma 6y agoAnother anecdote - my cat was 100% indoor first 6-8 month I had him. Then I started to let him outside during day and he started immediately to try to hunt. His first attempts were hilarious, like trying to hide just by laying down and flap around with his tail from excitement, birds would look funny at him and just casually jump away if he got too close. He also wore a bell all of the time, which made it even more impossible. But after half a year he started to consistently kill 1-3 animals per season, birds and mice. One time he killed a huge pigeon. And thats only the kills I know of, since he brought them back home to show off. Not saying that can account for billions, but thats just one cat who had everything against him and also was well fed at home.
- shepardrtc 6y agoA published study is more reliable than anecdotal evidence.
- BostonFern 6y agoI'm not at all implying that my personal experience outweighs any study. Speaking of published studies, the article I linked sheds an interesting light on one particularly relevant study.
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- dang 6y ago
- Der_Einzige 6y agoMaybe I'll say what a lot of people are already thinking but may not want to say out loud: I don't care Until someone can show me strong evidence that cat related hunting of this wildlife has a short or even long term affect on humans (through biodiversity loss of keystone species for example) than I think that the utility gained from enjoying the company of the local feline hunters is worth it. Frankly, I don't give a damn about pidgons or whatever else they're hunting until it impacts me directly. Shun my egoism with your Christian inspired morality all you want but at heart the vast majority of people are egoists in denial anyway. Maybe I got the parasite as a serial cat owner and that's what's motivating me to talk this way but there seems to be an opposite parasite going around since many here are openly calling for folks to murder domestic house cats who are allowed to roam outside. Part of what I'm articulating is based on my fundemental belief in anthropocentrism which I've never understood to be a bad word. Humans have more value-to-life than wild animals. The animals humans care about (like pets) have more value-to-life than pidgons. The alternative to this view (animal and human value to life is comparable) is veganism and you see how often that view shunned by the public at large. Admittedly, nature is pretty messed up and it'd nice if house cats would be better about not causing their prey to suffer on the way out - but nature doesn't seem to care about morality so I'll give cats a pass as "not being ethical actors" on this one...
- loso 6y agoThe fact that cats hunt have been helpful to me in the past. Twice while I was living in an apartment building all of my neighbors had problems with mice. Once in New York and once in Massachusetts. In Massachusetts before my girlfriend came to live with me, I would see the mice. After she came to live with me with her cats, never saw them again. The same when we moved to NYC. While my neighbors all had rotten issues I never saw one mouse or rat in my apartment the entire 8 years living there.
- theshrike79 6y agoStatistically, cats are really bad at catching mice. They might catch one, maybe kill it, maybe not. Maybe they'll just play with it and let it go. Terriers on the other hand... https://youtu.be/l2Pyu-Cj0gg https://youtu.be/l2Pyu-Cj0gg
- TulliusCicero 6y agoMaybe them being around still scares the mice enough?
- jyounker 6y agoThe cat doesn't have to actually catch the mice and rats, as they are instinctively afraid of the smell of cat urine, even in small amounts.
- qchris 6y agoVice Media did a video about the impact of the feral cat population on Australian wildlife, and the hunters/trappers that are working to cut down on their population[1]. Some of the imagery can be a little brutal if you're averse to that sort of thing, but I found it to be fairly interesting from a conservation methods perspective. It reminds me a little of the work being done in the American South on trying to keep down wild pig and python populations. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b93IBwJ_Yow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b93IBwJ_Yow
- BostonFern 6y agoThere are similar efforts to reduce wild dog populations in Australia, which Vice has also covered[1]. One thing that stuck with me after watching both videos is that Youtube posts a content warning on the video showing dogs being hunted, but not the feral cat equivalent. From a conservation perspective, I'm skeptical that hunting dogs and cats with traps and rifles will have much of an impact on Australian wildlife. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mioD47T8-YM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mioD47T8-YM
- m0zg 6y agoCan confirm, my cat kills all the time. Birds, rabbits, frogs. If something moves in my backyard, it will eventually be killed. In the summer when doors are open she actually drags in dying, bleeding animals from time to time. And under prey drive she's a completely different animal, scary and aggressive AF.
- vgivanovic 6y agoThe NPR headline is catchy but the underlying study is dogged by questions. The cited study (https://doi.org/10.1111/acv.12563; https://doi.org/10.1111/acv.12563; sci-hub.tw has a copy) has some methodological flaws: * The cat studied were were not randomly selected; they were chosen by "local volunteers". There may be confounding variables that explain part of the effect and so turn the observed effects from being statistically significant to not being statistically significant. * The data on kills was self-reported, allowing bias to creep in. * All the cats were English-speaking. * Only 10 un-neutered pet cats were studied. I don't know if being neutered would increase, decrease, or have no effect on the kill rate, but the subject is not discussed. I also question the conclusion that cats have a significant impact on local fauna. * The average kill rate for a pet cat was (roughly) less than two animals per week, which doesn't seem very high. I'm left with the feeling that the authors had to resort to killings/area to make the results impressive. * The authors did not report on the total size of the home ranges of cats compared to total area. So, for example, if the ratio was 1:1000, then so what? If the ratio was 1:20, then house cat might have a significant affect on local fauna. Finally, I have a question about the presentation of the data: Figure 2b does not indicate that "75% of cats spent 90% of their time in disturbed habitats". The graph indicates that 500+ (out of 875 cats) spent between 95% and 100% of their time in developed habitats. Perhaps the y-axis is mislabeled, but even if it is, the graph does not match what the authors say.