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Sick leave is just "higher pay + unpaid leave" with extra steps. Sick leave means "get a doctor's note to prove you are sick" or wrestling with what counts as "

Sick leave is just "higher pay + unpaid leave" with extra steps. Sick leave means "get a doctor's note to prove you are sick" or wrestling with what counts as "sick".

kasey_junk 7y ago
It’s also a culture of managers sending you home for the good of the team without it being punitive.
Polylactic_acid 7y ago
It ensures that they will always be paid enough to be able to take days off when sick and that they will always be able to take them when needed with 0 notice. There is a reason the rest of the world requires permanent employees to have them.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  I think you're missing the point the parent is making. The parent is talking about total compensation. An employer has x amount of dollars allotted for an employee. This x includes everything that the employer needs to employ you: your salary, your vacation time (and pay), you tools etc. If you require that employers provide sick leave then x is still going to stay the same. That sick leave will simply come from some other pool, such as the salary or the money allotted for training or tools.
  - sundaeofshock 7y ago
    Or perhaps it will come from the profit of the company?
    - PopeDotNinja 7y ago
      What if the to the company is unprofitable, as many companies choose to be while growing? No one is allowed to be sick?
      - Polylactic_acid 7y ago
        The company doesn't have a right to exist. The employee should have a right to sick days.
gwbas1c 7y ago
That's why there is a difference between a contractor and a W2 employee. Contractors get "higher pay + unpaid leave"
- larzang 7y ago
  So when does this amazing higher pay kick in for the thousands of Amazon contractors?
  - mirimir 7y ago
    The "free market" response would be something like "when there's a shortage of them". But in fact, it's misleading to call them "contractors". Back in the day, they would have been called "temps".
grecy 7y ago
> Sick leave means "get a doctor's note to prove you are sick" or wrestling with what counts as "sick". It doesn't have to be that way. Every job I've ever had it's just a matter of emailing or calling my boss to say I won't be in, and that's that. No Doctor. No authorization. No hassle. Unlimited days. Sick people shouldn't be at at work, and any job worth a damn trusts it's employees to do the right thing. Jobs in Canada and Australia.
- tomc1985 7y ago
  That's the way its always been for me, in the US. That sort of attitude is a failure of trust up there next to spurious drugtesting
tehjoker 7y ago
No it's quite different. With higher pay, people will want to avoid going home because if they keep working while sick, they'll get paid more. If you have paid sick leave, they will stay home. See the difference?
- repsilat 7y ago
  This is a good point. The importance of sick leave isn't the gross expected balance of pay and work -- as the grandparent points out, for some values those things will be equal, and employees won't prefer one or the other. (Or, better yet, employees might prefer the higher wages because there's more optionality to it -- they get paid more if they're healthy, and they get paid the same if they're unhealthy.) That misses the point, though. The real importance of sick-leave is about marginal incentives. If an employee is sick, they don't need to weigh one more day of pay against the risk of infecting their coworkers -- they have no incentive to come into the office.
Ericson2314 7y ago
No it's not. O(apples) vs O(oranges).
kbutler 7y ago
No. Incentives matter. Sick leave = "stay home if sick, still get same money" "higher pay + unpaid leave" = "stay home if sick, get less money"
arthens 7y ago
No it's not. Unpaid leave puts people in the position of having to decide between health (and not infecting their coworkers) and losing money. Paid sick leave instead puts employees in the position of being able to look after themselves (and their coworkers) without penalties. It might seem like a trivial difference for people who make decent money, but it's a huge difference for people who are not in a good financial situation. > get a doctor's note to prove you are sick Only if you work for a company that doesn't trust its employees. I've only worked in countries with paid sick leave, and I honestly don't remember if I ever had to present a doctor's note.
- chii 7y ago
  >> higher pay + unpaid leave if your pay was low, and you get sick leave, then management is going to count the sick leave as part of your pay (even tho you don't necessarily use it up). This then incentivises the worker to "use up" sick leave even if they aren't sick. Higher pay + unlimited sick leave (unpaid) means that the pay is upfront. The total amount paid being the same would mean that the worker doesn't have to fake a sickie every now and then to get their fair share of their wages. Managers also would not see any sick leave as the worker taking advantage.
- hef19898 7y ago
  In Germany you only need one for more than three calendar days. Which is fair enough, if you ask me.
harry8 7y ago
Ignoring differences in cashflow timing as irrelevant? Bold move if you made decisions that matter based on that. There's a whole island of bankers who will tear you a new one if you bring that weak stuff in their house...

Sick leave is just "higher pay + unpaid leave" with extra steps. Sick leave means "get a doctor's note to prove you are sick" or wrestling with what counts as "sick".

kasey_junk 7y ago

It’s also a culture of managers sending you home for the good of the team without it being punitive.

Polylactic_acid 7y ago

It ensures that they will always be paid enough to be able to take days off when sick and that they will always be able to take them when needed with 0 notice. There is a reason the rest of the world requires permanent employees to have them.

Mirioron 7y ago
I think you're missing the point the parent is making. The parent is talking about total compensation. An employer has x amount of dollars allotted for an employee. This x includes everything that the employer needs to employ you: your salary, your vacation time (and pay), you tools etc. If you require that employers provide sick leave then x is still going to stay the same. That sick leave will simply come from some other pool, such as the salary or the money allotted for training or tools.
- sundaeofshock 7y ago
  Or perhaps it will come from the profit of the company?
  - PopeDotNinja 7y ago
    What if the to the company is unprofitable, as many companies choose to be while growing? No one is allowed to be sick?
    - Polylactic_acid 7y ago
      The company doesn't have a right to exist. The employee should have a right to sick days.

gwbas1c 7y ago

That's why there is a difference between a contractor and a W2 employee. Contractors get "higher pay + unpaid leave"

larzang 7y ago
So when does this amazing higher pay kick in for the thousands of Amazon contractors?
- mirimir 7y ago
  The "free market" response would be something like "when there's a shortage of them". But in fact, it's misleading to call them "contractors". Back in the day, they would have been called "temps".

grecy 7y ago

> Sick leave means "get a doctor's note to prove you are sick" or wrestling with what counts as "sick". It doesn't have to be that way. Every job I've ever had it's just a matter of emailing or calling my boss to say I won't be in, and that's that. No Doctor. No authorization. No hassle. Unlimited days. Sick people shouldn't be at at work, and any job worth a damn trusts it's employees to do the right thing. Jobs in Canada and Australia.

tomc1985 7y ago
That's the way its always been for me, in the US. That sort of attitude is a failure of trust up there next to spurious drugtesting

tehjoker 7y ago

No it's quite different. With higher pay, people will want to avoid going home because if they keep working while sick, they'll get paid more. If you have paid sick leave, they will stay home. See the difference?

repsilat 7y ago
This is a good point. The importance of sick leave isn't the gross expected balance of pay and work -- as the grandparent points out, for some values those things will be equal, and employees won't prefer one or the other. (Or, better yet, employees might prefer the higher wages because there's more optionality to it -- they get paid more if they're healthy, and they get paid the same if they're unhealthy.) That misses the point, though. The real importance of sick-leave is about marginal incentives. If an employee is sick, they don't need to weigh one more day of pay against the risk of infecting their coworkers -- they have no incentive to come into the office.

Ericson2314 7y ago

No it's not. O(apples) vs O(oranges).

kbutler 7y ago

No. Incentives matter. Sick leave = "stay home if sick, still get same money" "higher pay + unpaid leave" = "stay home if sick, get less money"

arthens 7y ago

No it's not. Unpaid leave puts people in the position of having to decide between health (and not infecting their coworkers) and losing money. Paid sick leave instead puts employees in the position of being able to look after themselves (and their coworkers) without penalties. It might seem like a trivial difference for people who make decent money, but it's a huge difference for people who are not in a good financial situation. > get a doctor's note to prove you are sick Only if you work for a company that doesn't trust its employees. I've only worked in countries with paid sick leave, and I honestly don't remember if I ever had to present a doctor's note.

chii 7y ago
>> higher pay + unpaid leave if your pay was low, and you get sick leave, then management is going to count the sick leave as part of your pay (even tho you don't necessarily use it up). This then incentivises the worker to "use up" sick leave even if they aren't sick. Higher pay + unlimited sick leave (unpaid) means that the pay is upfront. The total amount paid being the same would mean that the worker doesn't have to fake a sickie every now and then to get their fair share of their wages. Managers also would not see any sick leave as the worker taking advantage.
hef19898 7y ago
In Germany you only need one for more than three calendar days. Which is fair enough, if you ask me.

harry8 7y ago

Ignoring differences in cashflow timing as irrelevant? Bold move if you made decisions that matter based on that. There's a whole island of bankers who will tear you a new one if you bring that weak stuff in their house...