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Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid
- tartoran 7y agoI'm surprised that, at this point, there are still originals in museums, especially for very desirable works as some replicas are hard to tell apart from the original. It can be done. If they hire professional 'replicators', this type of museum theft could be completely eradicated. Another possibility is that maybe in this case a replica was stolen and the museum doesn't want to divulge that. And want to add that this stolen work is almost un-sellable, everybody knows is missing and if it ever resurfaces it will be claimed back, thus nobody would want to own it. But what do I know..
- ModernMech 7y agoOne of the draws of going to a museum is to see the originals. If you know it's a fake then it takes away from the mystique.
- tartoran 7y agoYes, this 100%. However, when you go to the museum and get to see an original and are mind blown by it, have a mystical experience but you not aware that what you looked at is indeed a perfect copy. It's all psychological. This is one reason museums don't want to disclose that they have copies on display.
- umvi 7y ago> If you know it's a fake then it takes away from the mystique. On the other hand, if you can only tell the difference between the real and the fake with a microscope, then "mystique" seems to be a simple placebo effect. It's about time we stopped holding original-yet-mediocre works like the Mona Lisa on such a high pedestal just to create some kind of "mental high" that people are deriving from the placebo effect.
- NullPrefix 7y agoYou think that mentality is the reason for all the fake products on Amazon? Don't go blaming be if the customer can't tell the difference.
- ModernMech 7y agoIt may be a placebo effect, but I need the lie in order for it to work. I can't get the same thing by pretending it's real. My brain has to believe it's real.
- umvi 7y agoSo you admit you aren't actually enjoying the art itself, but are deriving a high from "witnessing an ancient piece of history" or "beholding the same matter someone famous once touched" or something?
- ModernMech 7y agoYeah. I like to think about ancient people and times and I draw a connection between objects and the past. If it was dug out of the ground after existing there for thousands of years I can do that. If the thing was made in a factory from a mold like every other thing in my house, then I have a hard time enjoying it. What's so wrong with that? I mean, what do you even mean by "enjoying the art itself"? You mean that the photons hitting my retina should have some sort of inherent enjoyment that is not processed by my brain? My brain needs context to derive that pleasure.
- jedimastert 7y agoWhat do you think art is? It's all in the head. Otherwise it's just paint on a canvas. It's not like there's some sort of objective truth to it.
- umvi 7y agoThere are many reasons people like art, but I think the principle reason is (or should be) admiration of skill. It's the same reason we like watching great athletes or musicians - we can recognize the amount of time and talent required to produce the end result ("wow, I couldn't do that, even if I tried!"). It's also the same reason many people have a visceral negative reaction to "art" that seemingly requires little to no skill (4'33", Pollock, etc.) - why admire something you could easily imitate with little-to-no training?
- LeonM 7y agoThe value (in terms of money) of art has always been confusing to me. Art has monetary value because: 1 it is a famous, one-of-a-kind piece 2 it can be used for money laundering and/or illegal transactions Pieces in museums are always in the #1 category. Any other piece with high monetary value is clearly in the #2 category. This stolen van Gogh will probably end up in a private collection, but really, what's the point? Since it is now a known stolen piece it now has no value in both category #1 and #2. I have a hard time believing that the new 'owner' had it stolen for the artistic value. Really, if he/she wanted to look at it, he/she could have just gone to the museum. (Well, not right now due to COVID19, but you get the point).
- defertoreptar 7y agoI can't find the source, but I remember reading about how there's a lifecycle to stolen art. The thief sells it to a sketchy art dealer at a huge discount. The sketchy art dealer then sells it to a more legitimate dealer at less of a discount. Then, it either goes to a legitimate private collector or museum. The length of time between each step can span decades, but it becomes more valuable at each transition.
- wmkn 7y agoFor a van Gogh that would never work. No legitimate art dealer would touch it. Regardless of the amount of time in between.
- retrac 7y agoGive it enough time, and will anyone even know who the rightful owner is supposed to be? I have a feeling van Gogh's fame will probably outlast the Netherlands, let alone a claim of legal ownership by one museum.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- notahacker 7y ago
- maallooc 7y agoWhat's with European museums and robbers? I've rarely or never heard Asian or American museums get robbed.
- twunde 7y agoThere's actually a fairly famous case in the Boston area of an American museum being robbed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_Stewart_Gardner_Museum_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_Stewart_Gardner_Museu... In general it's pretty rare for museums to get robbed because while art pieces are valuable, once stolen and reported as such, they have to be returned to the rightful owners when found. As such, they can't be resold through public channels such as art actions, and even private sales are risky
- Someone 7y agoFor examples of American museums, take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_theft#Famous_cases_of_art_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_theft#Famous_cases_of_art_..., in particular https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_Stewart_Gardner_Museum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_Stewart_Gardner_Museu....
- op03 7y agoEuropeans have a long track record of looting priceless things. Before it used to be from other countries.
- nickthegreek 7y agoPhoto of the artwork is missing from apnews. You can find one here - https://news.artnet.com/art-world/thieves-stolen-van-gogh-masterpiece-dutch-museum-1819743 https://news.artnet.com/art-world/thieves-stolen-van-gogh-ma...
- w-m 7y agoThe muted greenish brown colouring, the strange wide aspect ratio, the generally dark tone and setting: if you'd try to sell this to me as a Van Gogh painting, I would have probably laughed at you. I'm far from being an art historian, but it looks quite out of character for a Van Gogh.
- peterpost2 7y agoIt's how his earlier works looked like
- pvaldes 7y agoAnd composition is primitive also for a Van Gogh. The figure is well placed, but the tree at the left is asking for an axe. The same artist than studied the color theory to place the right combinations of colours close. Early work, or trying to be 'realistic', I suppose.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- w-m 7y agoI'm not questioning the painting's authenticity. I'm merely bewildered that someone would steal a Van Gogh that doesn't look like a Van Gogh to the untrained eye - how are you going to impress your billionaire friends with that hanging over the fireplace of your lair? Although the thief will probably just blackmail the insurance/museum, so the style of the painting doesn't matter at all.
- Someone 7y agoHe wasn’t born painting sunflowers. If you look at http://art-vangogh.com/1885.html http://art-vangogh.com/1885.html, there a lot of dark portraits (also, if I’m counting correctly, 140 paintings in a single year)
- hash872 7y agoWhat is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types really have an appreciation for fine art.... So what's the market like? (And if there is a market for shady wealthy stolen art buyers, how do you get connected with them? Seems like every node in a web of underground connections is someone the police can potentially arrest & flip, etc.)
- gorgoiler 7y agoPerhaps it was stolen to order? Essentially the market would be ready-made for the thieves.
- matthewmcg 7y ago“Your Postmate is picking up your order from RIJKSMUSEUM. It should be ready for delivery on: the next quiet, moonless night.”
- bpodgursky 7y agoIf you can get the goods to the Middle East (Qatar, UAE, Bahrain) I assure you there are filthy rich princes and sheikhs who (1) want to give the impression of a respect for fine art, and (2) are at absolutely no risk of prosecution, and (3) would drop the money just for fun / social posturing, not even as an investment.
- redisman 7y agoOligarchs, shady statesmen, (cyber)criminals, druglords, warlords. I'm sure there are plenty of people in the market for stolen work from one of the most famous painters.
- themodelplumber 7y agoThey might even be under the impression that they are negotiating with / buying from a rightful owner.
- tech-no-logical 7y agodirectly from the source : https://www.singerlaren.nl/en/nieuws/460/burglary_at_singer_laren/ https://www.singerlaren.nl/en/nieuws/460/burglary_at_singer_...
- sabujp 7y agoneeds update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stolen_paintings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stolen_paintings
- dannykwells 7y agoFor anyone wanting to have a wonderful 90s flashback featuring the theft of high-end art, you can't do worse during shelter in place than to watch the Thomas Crown Affair: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0155267/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0155267/
- stuff4ben 7y ago"So if some Houdini wants to snatch a couple swirls of paint that are really only important to some very silly rich people, I don't really give a damn..."
- joncp 7y agoOne of the rare remakes that was better than the original.
- macintux 7y agoThanks for the reminder. Rented it tonight via iTunes. It really is an excellent movie.
- dannykwells 7y agoYeah we just watched it a few nights ago. Truly is excellent. And so, so 90s.
- songshuu 7y agoThe gang leader was seen wearing a red hat and red trench coat... Hit it Rockapella! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1EIUP8tvbE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1EIUP8tvbE
- magwa101 7y agoSo somebody is making money off this.
- btrettel 7y agoCOVID-19 is providing many opportunities for criminals. It's only a matter of time before articles come out with titles like "How identity thieves took my federal tax return AND coronabucks" given the delay in filing US tax returns this year.
- tech-no-logical 7y agoaccording to both the police and the museum, the security was as per usual. yes, the museum is closed now, but the burglary was at night.
- btrettel 7y agoInteresting. I had assumed that security was reduced.
- kyleblarson 7y agoFor anyone who has time on their hands and wants a good read, The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt is a wonderful book that tells a story set in the world of art theft.
- iandanforth 7y agoI fully approve of art theft. There should be honor among thieves of course. You shouldn't damage art. But if a painting isn't stolen now and then, well it wasn't worth painting in the first place. Really, what is art for but to enliven the doldrums of the rich? A moment or three of aesthetic pleasure, bragging at parties, but really most days it's just so much wallpaper. No, the true purpose of art is to be stolen. Then the chase begins, the drama, the mystery, the appreciation of the craft of skullduggery. Eventually you track down the blighter who nabbed the splotchy-whatsit, buy him a beer and throw him back in the clink. That's where he'll meet his next crew, plan the next heist, and start the whole glorious affair over again. So cheers to the cheeky beggars who grabbed the Gogh, let the fun begin!
- grawprog 7y agoOr the painting gets sold to someone shady overseas for a private collection and it's never seen again. It's not like in movies, there's no romance or drama to it. Stolen art doesn't benefit the common good.
- grecy 7y ago> and it's never seen again ... until it's stolen again and the cycle repeats. Sure, it might take a few generations, but it will come around again.
- abiogenesis 7y agoGovernments should finance teams of thieves to steal those back from private collections and place them back to public museums.
- joecool1029 7y agoWho says they don't? China's likely smart enough to figure this out: https://www.gq.com/story/the-great-chinese-art-heist https://www.gq.com/story/the-great-chinese-art-heist
- stevespang 7y ago“I am extremely pissed off that this happened,” the museum’s director Jan Rudolph de Lorm said at a press conference on Monday.
- stakkur 7y agoI could've told you, Vincent. This world was never meant for one as beautiful as you.
- adrianmonk 7y agoMy gold lies in a foreign land, buried deep beneath the sand.
- thewatcher123 7y agoThere is no need to put “stolen” in your last sentence.
- willbw 7y agoWow, very deep.
- thewatcher123 7y agoReally? I wouldn’t consider pointing out the obvious as very deep, but it’s your opinion.
- esotericsean 7y agoEdgy. And I fully, wholeheartedly disagree.
- thewatcher123 7y agoHow is it “edgy”? Good for you.
- csomar 7y ago> The thieves smashed a large glass door at the front of the museum to access the building. So let me get this straight. A fairly sized museum that holds, possibly, millions worth of art has absolutely no 24/7 security guards at the front door. Not even a single guard. Come on.
- sgustard 7y agoSame reaction here. My company's unoccupied office has a glass door and I lie awake thinking about someone stealing the 10-year old PC off the receptionist's desk.
- pvaldes 7y ago(Unrelated with Van Gogh but, as we are talking about lost dutch girls, I wonder how vertex-four will be doing...)
- peter_d_sherman 7y agoWarning: Really corny humor ahead... So it could be said that the Van Gogh... Van Went... away... <g>
- yesenadam 7y agoI take it from that that you pronounce "Gogh" like "go". A Dutchman once explained to me that both g's are pronounced with a strongly guttural h sound, like in loch or Bach, or like the Spanish j but much stronger, like you're clearing your throat. And a short "o", like non-USA English "top" - not an "ah" sound. CHhhoChhh. Yes, pretty impossible for English-speakers, but anything would be closer than rhyming it with "go".
- eythian 7y agoBasically, it rhymes with "cock" , except the 'k' sounds at the start and end are choking sounds from your throat, like that in loch. Depending on your English dialect, people tend to take the gh either from though making it "van go", or the gh from cough, making it "van gof". Now, for extra points, try the local liquor chain "Gall & Gall" :) (Not a native Dutch speaker, just lived here for a few years now and spent quite some time trying to get my head and throat around the g sound.)
- herodotus 7y ago> Thieves have taken advantage of the distraction provided by the public health situation to steal a prize Vincent van Gogh painting from a museum in the Netherlands Here is the opposite effect: The number of spam phone calls I have received has dropped from two or three most days to zero! Looks like the spammers cannot work remotely, which is really odd!
- KingFelix 7y agoBut, what if Jan Rudolph de Lorm, the museum director was actually moving it to a safer location and accidentally destroyed it. Jans quick-thinking jumped into play and he called up a few college historian friends and asked for some help. Jan was able to disable the alarm so her friends could come in and smash the place up, leave evidence that it was stolen, then activated the alarm just at the right time. Jan had become good friends with Andreas Blühm, the director of the Groninger Museum and finally convinced him to let the Singer Laren museum take it on loan. Jan was so distraught there was no way he could could let himself be seen as an incompetent museum director. He had to cover his tracks. He convinced his old historian friends to keep quiet about the cover-up by cutting up the remains of the painting and giving them each a piece. A story to be kept in secrecy only handed down each generation. But Jan forgot one thing.......
- rurban 7y agoI will not be surprised when they were the same Lebanese gang from Berlin who also stole the big gold coin in Berlin, and most likely the Dresden green vault jewels. It's just too easy.