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Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring
- lwansbrough 7y agoGood thing phones are embedded into us and can't simply be left at home. Joking aside, and I suppose privacy concerns aside, this measure is better than nothing and is also less draconian than the physical enforcement by police that was seen in mainland China.
- lanewinfield 7y agoFifth paragraph: "Officials also call twice a day to ensure people don’t avoid tracking by leaving their phones at home."
- jiveturkey 7y agogood thing phone forwarding isn't a thing
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mattkrause 7y agoThe threat here is more "I'll just run to the store real quick; nobody will even know" than "We need to thwart determined criminal masterminds."
- jiveturkey 7y agoyes, of course. i was just responding in the tone of the thread
- notRobot 7y ago> The system monitors phone signals to alert police and local officials if those in home quarantine move away from their address or turn off their phones. Jyan said authorities will contact or visit those who trigger an alert within 15 minutes. > Officials also call twice a day to ensure people don’t avoid tracking by leaving their phones at home. I'd hate this so much. I get why they feel it's necessary, I do. But I still absolutely hate this. I hope stuff like this doesn't get nomralized. Especially in other non-first-world countries
- RivieraKid 7y agoI would be ok with this variation: lower physical check frequency, bigger fines.
- Noumenon72 7y agoThat approach doesn't comport with human psychology. A higher probability of getting caught is far more deterrent than a higher punishment. This is why the parole system needs to be reformed to be "swift, certain, and fair". https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-09-09/-swift-certain-and-fair-applies-beyond-probation https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-09-09/-swift...
- ShorsHammer 7y agoPeople love it. The amazing shift in online rhetoric that praises authoritarianism is scary. Imagine this being rolled out for the flu.
- vkou 7y agoIf the flu caused the kind of havoc to our medical systems that COVID is causing, I'd want this rolled out for the flu, too.
- jcims 7y agoThe flu is no slouch. I’m cherry picking a bit but for the US in 2017-2018: “CDC estimates that the burden of illness during the 2017–2018 season was high with an estimated 45 million people getting sick with influenza, 21 million people going to a health care provider, 810,000 hospitalizations, and 61,000 deaths from influenza.” https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden-averted/2017-2018.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden-averted/2017-2018.htm The panic is at least in part responsible for the present havoc that has been caused to the healthcare system (again in the US). Forecast havoc is all disease. Interesting side effect of the social distancing is that it has materially reduced influenza numbers as well. Take a look at some of the recent stats at https://healthweather.us https://healthweather.us. Many states are dropping below average fever counts. Except Florida.
- bilal4hmed 7y agoTracking like this has been one of the reasons for Singapores success to curbing the virus. https://www.therakyatpost.com/2020/03/23/what-malaysia-can-learn-from-singapores-handling-of-covid-19/ https://www.therakyatpost.com/2020/03/23/what-malaysia-can-l... ""If people don’t have symptoms, they’re put in home quarantine. And home quarantine is very strict. A couple times a day, you’ll get an SMS and you have to click on a link that will show where your phone is. In case you cheat and leave your phone at home with someone else, the government has people knocking on doors now and then. The penalties are pretty harsh. ""
- refurb 7y agoThere was a Chinese person in Singapore who had PR and refused to follow the quarantine order. They took away his PR status.
- cma 7y agoPR?
- bilal4hmed 7y agoPermanent Residence thats good. Rules are rules, especially in these times.
- jlokier 7y agoThat's terrible. PR is supposed to be "more or less a citizen, now stay for long enough and you can become a citizen". Not "we'll call it permanent but it doesn't mean anything". Rules means justice and enforcement too. You're not supposed to have a different justice system for people on PR than for citizens. They should have jailed the person, if that's what they do to citizens, or done whatever else they do to citizens who break the rules.
- pcr0 7y agoSingapore's justice system is geared towards making extreme examples over fairness.
- mmhsieh 7y agoTaiwan doing this = effective. china doing this = creepy. however, probably necessary in both cases. perhaps a rhetorical cease-fire globally would benefit us all.
- perennate 7y agoIt is probably both effective and creepy in both countries. The article even talks about how some find it creepy: > Taiwan’s electronic fence has drawn some complaints for its intrusiveness. > “It’s creepy that the government is teaming up with telecommunications companies to track our phones,” said a flight attendant in Taipei who was put under 14-day quarantine after returning from Europe in mid-March. > The woman, who identified herself as Xiaomei, said she was scolded by a local administrator after failing to pick up a check-in phone call in the morning when she was asleep. > “They said the police will come to me if I missed another phone call,” she said. “I’m treated like a prisoner.”
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- twomoretime 7y agoOne of those countries is an authoritarian "communist" state with a well oiled dissent suppression machine.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dang 7y agoPlease don't take HN threads further into nationalistic or ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- alkonaut 7y ago> Taiwan doing this = effective. china doing this = creepy That's the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy. You can have at least a little trust in a democracy to do the right thing when it does the necessary evil. This pandemic isn't a reason to take the pressure of china when it comes to human rights. Quite the opposite.
- huangc10 7y agoLike other people are saying, there's definitely ways around this. The only reason why Taiwan has been so successful in battling Coronavirus is that there is national pride in acting as a whole and doing what's best for society. There is huge shame to the family for people who defy. Taiwanese people generally know what helps society and when to listen. It is the cultural influence/mix of Chinese and Japanese governments which are deeply ingrained. Source, I am Taiwanese.
- impendia 7y agoI envy you. I am American. I live near, and teach at, a large state university -- which has closed for the spring semester and moved to online instruction. This past Friday there was a house party across the street -- presumably all students. Usually I am very chill, but this time I called the cops.
- hanspedah 7y agoThat behaviour reminds me of dark age where neighbours spied on each other and reported them to the government. And the thing that frightens me is that you and several others are doing this voluntarily.
- Barrin92 7y agothere is absolutely no shame in reporting people to the government or the police who threaten the health of others by throwing a house party in the midst of a full blown pandemic, and to compare it to Stasi surveillance or whatever is disingenious and ignorant.
- candu 7y ago...except that, in said dark ages, that got people executed for treason or witchcraft or what have you. Here, it could very well save lives. Many democratic governments have tried voluntary restrictions - some people are complying, but others don't seem to care. What else is there but to enforce those restrictions via previously existing channels (e.g. Quarantine Act in Canada)? IMHO, this is similar to reporting someone for smoking near a public building, dangerous / drunk driving, or any of a number of public health / interest infractions.
- jordwest 7y agoYuval Noah Harari (author of Sapiens) wrote a piece [1] on how we're now facing a choice between authoritarian surveillance and citizen empowerment, and how a decision made in this crisis could set the standard for the future. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/19d90308-6858-11ea-a3c9-1fe6fedcca75 https://www.ft.com/content/19d90308-6858-11ea-a3c9-1fe6fedcc...
- twomoretime 7y ago>and how a decision made in this crisis could set the standard for the future This here is really the problem, none of these emergency changes should necessarily become permanent. Income tax started out as a war fund some one or two hundred years ago... But I sense we are fighting human nature.
- state_less 7y agoAnd if not permanent, more common. Authorities might say, "We did it before and this flu is half as dangerous, so just to be safe, let's put everyone on the digital leash again." This sort control comes with its own costs. Personally, I'd rather take my risks and live free.
- klhutchins 7y agoyeah, how is it ensured that it gets turned off once turned on? how soon until "undesirables" meeting together for too long creates an alert to be investigated? As handy as it could be in controlling the virus, what else will it eventually be able to control?
- Gustomaximus 7y agoThis is why democracy is so important. It is the pressure valve to excess. Sure some government will abuse this type of feature but there will be a point where people push back. Maybe not soon enough for initial abuse but eventually.
- state_less 7y ago
- friedman23 7y ago> which has reported only reported 108 cases of the virus absolutely amazing
- ndiscussion 7y agohahahahahahahhahaaha thank you for this
- dang 7y agoCould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? You've done it repeatedly, and we're trying for something different than that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- martinpw 7y agoAccording to this site it is 215 now (March 23): https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ This is just 3 days after the publication of the Reuters article, so it seems like it may be growing at similar rates to elsewhere (doubling every 3 days), just from a low base?
- lifeformed 7y agoI'm in Taiwan in day 6 of home quarantine right now. We get a call every morning to check up on our health. I don't mind it, it's a simple and effective method and it gives me confidence in the government and society, knowing that everyone is taking the situation seriously. Once I'm out of quarantine, I can feel comfortable being outside living a normal life, knowing that all known potential carriers are contained.
- bobbyd3 7y agoHow did they get your information for the daily call? Just curious. Is everyone required to submit contact information? Or did they already have the required contact info for daily health checkups?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 7y agoWhen you enter, you're required to fill out a health declaration form, which asks for your contact info. IIRC, it's not cross-referenced with immigration database. Naturally, some were not filled out correctly, maliciously or not. Of the reported cases, police got involved to track down said persons, and they were fined depending on the severity of the infraction. I don't know if the form DB is now cross-checked with the immigration DB.
- barkingcat 7y agoThere is a national registry - if you have a birth certificate, if you have a passport, if you file taxes, if you've used a government service (ever), if you visited dentist/doctor at any point in your life, they have linked those records. If you are visitor and if they need to, within a few hours of landing at an airport and arriving at your destination, you will get a phone call at your destination location/hotel, etc if the government needs to find you - Have you ever wondered why you fill out those landing / immigration cards that they give you on the plane? For the US and Canada, those are only formalities. For Taiwan, the cards get scanned in and then the authorities will call the number you put on that card to see if you're there or if you've checked into the hotel, for example. In regular times, this system is mostly used for things like catching overseas males dodging conscription for example, but the system is active already for times like these when it's critical to know where a person has gone after they leave the airport.
- sailfast 7y agoWhy would such a mechanism of control incentivize those that feel sick to report their symptoms? Why would one submit to control at this level? This sound similar to ankle-bracelet-level Parole / house arrest structures. In fact, I'd prefer that because it would only be providing a single source of sensor data to the government instead of possibly making my entire phone and location history accessible.
- alkonaut 7y agoIt works well enough if everyone considers the best of their society as more important than their own freedoms. So it's pretty easy to extrapolate where this might work and where it would be fruitless.
- rootusrootus 7y agoThe libertarian types who think the gov't shouldn't exercise this kind of authoritarian power also think their plan is the best for society.
- vidarh 7y agoAs a "libertarian type" well out on the left, I see the simple resolution to this that if you're prepared to risk the health of others, you're free to do that as long as you do it with other consenting adults apart from the rest of us, and expect not to be allowed contact with the rest of us until its safe. Freedom for everyone also means freedom for people to band together and decide not to want anything to do with those who don't want to follow their rules. Especially in this case, where the health risk arguably makes it aggression to try to force contact on others.
- sailfast 7y ago"The best of society as more important than their own freedoms" is a false choice here. I believe very strongly in working for the best of society which is why I bring up this very point. This kind of effect is also borne out in safety literature. If you want this to succeed to you have to remove consequences for reporting (and this means ensuring you are not overreacting to initial reporting or concerns) There is surely a compromise option here as well where the government does not get the data and/or you do not give everything up in order to achieve this outcome? Even a strict agreement about what specific data goes to the government, for how long, or having private companies or a purposely formed non-profit entity handle this would be better than handing your phone to your government. I'm hardly a libertarian but I do think it's important to consider how best to protect hard won freedoms before running toward the expedient, safe-feeling choice.
- alkonaut 7y agoIt's good that everyone sees and learns what these systems are and what they can be used for. Hopefully everyone can figure out what they can be used for, if used for the wrong purposes.
- RaoulP 7y agoI’m in precautionary quarantine in Taipei right now, after arriving from a Level 3 country some days ago. As a tourist, I had to provide a phone number of a contact person in Taiwan upon my arrival. They call the number and confirm it works before you even leave the CDC checkpoint at the airport. You also self report your health condition. I then stood in line for 4 hours to get a special taxi to my place of quarantine. Taking public transport is forbidden. Before finally getting into the taxi, I was sprayed all over (including the bottom of my shoes) with with I presume was disinfectant. I was later requested to add a police officer on the social media platform Line, through which I’m now asked daily how I’m feeling, and offered help if I need anything. However I don’t think they can track my position through it. There’s a stall selling cheap SIM cards for tourists at the airport, but it’s past the CDC checkpoint, so no tourist has a local number to provide. Perhaps they should move it upstream (and just provide the cards for free), if they want this “electronic fence” to be watertight. I’m not sure but I think I could technically go wherever I pleased right now.
- bogomipz 7y agoI'm curious as a tourist what happens if you don't have a local contact? What happens if one has nothing but a hotel booking for accommodation instead of a home? I'm guessing that wasn't your case but were there others you heard or saw who were just regular tourists?
- RaoulP 7y agoActually my local contact was simply my Airbnb host. I had arranged the Airbnb only earlier that day, In response to the new travel restriction. Other passengers provided the number of their hotel. The CDC called the hotel and (I believe) checked whether they were aware that these passengers were about to self-quarantine there. Edit: even if you arrived without having anything booked at all, you can pay to stay at a designated quarantine hotel, though that is more expensive. Also note that Taiwan doesn’t grant the “visa exemption” usually granted to tourists, when they now arrive from countries assessed as level 3 (requiring home quarantine). I was able to enter during a short window of time where home quarantine was instated but the new visa rules were not yet in effect. So I think it isn’t usual for the situation you described to occur.
- dmix 7y ago> Quarantine violators can be fined up to T$1 million ($32,955). Today Taiwan fined a guy $33k USD for breaking quarantine by going to a nightclub (not a positive COVID case just a mandatory isolation due to travelling): https://asiatimes.com/2020/03/heavy-fine-for-taiwan-man-for-breaking-quarantine/ https://asiatimes.com/2020/03/heavy-fine-for-taiwan-man-for-... They aren't joking about the fines.
- alainchabat 7y agosmall correction: NTD$100,000 (usd$32,955) Taiwanese Dollars isn't that shitty (yet)
- thatsnice 7y agoUS$1 ~ 30.2NT so the original numbers seem correct.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- futhey 7y agoThey also have a steep fine for failing to report symptoms when entering the country, and have fined at least one person from this rule as well. To balance things out, they are paying a $466 stipend for those that complete the quarantine.
- qwerty456127 7y agoI wouldn't feel comfortable being stripped of the right to have no phone.
- flyt 7y agoThen don't travel to Taiwan for a few months.
- qwerty456127 7y agoWhat about the rest of the time? Is it easy to live without a phone in Taiwan? Can you buy a non-locked phone and a prepaid SIM card anonymously?
- robjan 7y agoOnly if it's an a SIM purchased from abroad. You need to produce a form of national ID if you want to purchase a SIM in Taiwan.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- x0ul 7y agoIt's fairly easy to live without a phone in Taiwan. It's not like China. Most payments in Taiwan are made with cash, EasyCard (or equivalent, depending on the city. It's a prepaid metro card you can use at some stores) or a credit card. Mobile payments tied to your identity (eg. WeChat) are not the norm. You can also use an EasyCard without providing a phone number but then you cannot rent bicycles or recover the funds if you lose your card.
- Animats 7y agoI wish we had that in the US. We're about to begin the Great Dieoff.[1] That chart now updates every day at the URL, and is worth following. [1] https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest
- stevespang 7y agoOne of the few advantages of an super authoritative state . . .
- jb775 7y ago> the system has drawn few [privacy] complaints in Taiwan Yeah until after the coronavirus craziness is over and the (now tested) system is used by China to round up dissenters
- bernardtapis 7y agoTaiwan is trying really hard to attract foreign talents to boost their economy. If you're interested, check their Golden Card Permit. It's a visa+redisent card allowing you to stay and work for anyone there up to 3years. The only requirement is to justify of a an average salary of 160k NTD/month(~USD 5210/month), anywhere in the world. If you don't earn that, try the skills application[1]. I'll not talk about all the positive things about Taiwan, just read the other comments. [1] https://foreigntalentact.ndc.gov.tw/en/cp.aspx?n=128B875DE9CBEBE3&s=0FCDB188C74F69A0 https://foreigntalentact.ndc.gov.tw/en/cp.aspx?n=128B875DE9C...
- darepublic 7y agoKind of incredulous seeing how many people are ready to forfeit all their freedoms so willingly. Simply can't wait for the government to keep us safe in our electric pens.
- thatsnice 7y agoIn Taiwan, shops / restaurants are open as normal and people are walking around freely, other than the tiny percent in quarantine. Meanwhile Europe and the US are increasingly locked down. So which one has more freedom?
- RohitLakh 7y agoI just want that this COVID-19 phase pass out and all the people to be cured. Doctors from all over the world are working for the cure and hope they find it!
- jordache 7y agoamerican exceptionalism! lol