15 ms·

New System76 Laptop: Lemur Pro

313 points by _jordan 7y ago

yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
Looks nice, uses coreboot and disables ME :), i5/i7, "Up to 40 GB DDR4", "2× M.2 SSD. Up to 4TB total." Holy cow that's a powerful machine. > USB Type-C Power Delivery Compatible It's capable of charging by USB-C? Then why does it have the old-style circular power jack?
- baybal2 7y ago
  Backup? Higher current option?
- peatmoss 7y ago
  I’ve wondered this with systems like my work-provided HP Elitebook as well. Best I can think of is that some customers may require the ability to charge a laptop via a port that doesn’t also double as a data port? Given some of the crazy hardware security attacks we’ve seen over the years, I’m a lot more paranoid about plugging in a rando USB-C cable than plugging in a barrel connector. That said, knowing to look for tip polarity, voltage, and available amperage is a lot to ask of people. I wish we had a standardized power-only charger option.
- nixpulvis 7y ago
  Just a guess, but charging by the old school barrel jacks requires next to no protocol support. You just need to provide the correct voltage, and supply enough current. Whereas with USB-C, you need to speak USB-C before it'll charge. EDIT: oh, and it gives you the ability to avoid potential security attack vectors.
- tw04 7y ago
  Because it only has a single usb-c port. They probably want people to have the option of charging the laptop while also plugging in something over usb-c. Why they didn't just do two usb-c ports, I don't know. Maybe someone from System 76 can answer that.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    They don't make their own laptops (yet, it is in the plan but probably not for 10 years), they buy enough laptops to have input on how they are designed, but in the end they don't get everything they want. Edit: 10 years is my guess. There are hints they might make their own laptops sooner. Time will tell.
- ahoneybun 7y ago
  You'll need to use the barrel charger for applying firmware updates. The Lemur Pro has additional circuitry to support changing the battery even if it completely drained.
  - nixpulvis 7y ago
    Wait, ignoring firmware... you need to have some charge in order to charge with USB-C? Couldn't it use the lowest power modes until it has enough juice to communicate? This seems like a serious flaw with USB PD.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      Go long enough and even your minimal charge is exhausted
      - giovannibajo1 7y ago
        Then how can Macs be charged if they are fully exhausted?
        bluGill 7y ago
        I have no idea. Maybe they can't, but we won't find out for 5 years when someone brings one out of a closet. Maybe there is enough current leakage when in non charging mode for them to run that much electronics.
    - jackpot51 7y ago
      This is inaccurate, the Lemur Pro supports charging through USB-C with a dead battery.
    - Nextgrid 7y ago
      That seems to be an implementation flaw. USB-C provides 5V by default with no negotiation which should be enough to power the controller and allow it to negotiate a higher voltage.
emsy 7y ago
If it wasn't for the 16:9 screen I'd buy it in an instant. Specs are sufficient for me, the battery life sounds enticing and the screen is matte. I'm just curious if I'm the only one that has such a strong preference for a less wide screen ratio.
- jacek 7y ago
  No, I would also love a laptop with 3:2 or 16:10 screen. And a Ryzen 4000 APU. Actually System76 might offer self manufactured laptops with AMD Ryzen in the future [1]. I hope they will consider a better display then. Currently they are basically rebranding Chinese laptops (like Clevo). [1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=System76-AMD-Laptop-Possibility https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=System76...
  - pengaru 7y ago
    Is this Lemur Pro yet another marked-up rebrand?
    - jacek 7y ago
      Looks like Clevo L141CU [1] [1] https://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_prodetail.asp?id=1264&lang=en#tabs-1 https://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_prodetail.asp?id=1264&lang=en...
  - e12e 7y ago
    Looks like Microsoft surface with ryzen 4000 might be comming. Will be interesting to see if it fares any better than previous Gen vs Intel, though: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15213/the-microsoft-surface-laptop-3-showdown-amd-picasso-vs-intel-ice-lake https://www.anandtech.com/show/15213/the-microsoft-surface-l... Rumor: https://www.techradar.com/au/news/amd-ryzen-4000-powered-microsoft-surface-device-may-be-coming-soon https://www.techradar.com/au/news/amd-ryzen-4000-powered-mic... Still waiting for full touch support for surface pro 4 in mainline Linux - other than that it's a pretty snazzy machine. The keyboard is great (if not quite IBM era thinkpad great.. But what is?). Would prefer a matte screen though.
baybal2 7y ago
73Wh battery, not bad in such a slim design!
- acidburnNSA 7y ago
  So epic. They got lots of complaints of battery life in the earlier models, and that was the one thing keeping me from pulling the trigger. With this huge battery and these specs I will have a really hard time not buying this to replace my old Vaio.
eugeniub 7y ago
Very cool overall, but to me USB-C is the default port I use. Most of my cables are USB-C on one end, not USB-A. I can't see myself buying a laptop with just one USB-C port. Does it even charge via USB-C? It says "USB Type-C Power Delivery Compatible" but I don't know if that's just power out or power in as well.
- outworlder 7y ago
  How the tables have turned.
- ahoneybun 7y ago
  It does though the barrel connection needs to be used for firmware updates. The Lemur Pro has additional circuitry to charge the battery even if it is dead.
onionionion 7y ago
I've been looking for a non-mac machine to replace a 2017 macbook pro, and this looks great, but I can't divorce myself from the higher dpi screen. If this could match the mbp I'd order right now.
ambulancechaser 7y ago
I would purchase today except there doesn't seem to be any screen options higher than 1080. I can't go back to 1080 after years of 4k monitors and mbp retina for work and x1 carbon 2k screen on personal laptop.
- nkkollaw 7y ago
  Also, 16:9. Apple laptops are barely usable at 16:10, it's night and day compared to 3:2 on Surface Books (my favorite laptop of all time by far).
- PascLeRasc 7y ago
  I wish someone else besides Apple would discover the 16:10 ratio. I love my MBP but every company I've worked at has been allergic to OS X. Right now I'm stuck working from home on a 1366x768 screen because it's "business-class".
  - wmf 7y ago
    Dell went 16:10 this year.
  - alphadevx 7y ago
    The 2020 model of Dell XPS 13 has 16:10 @ 4K AFAIK. If you get the Developer Edition, it comes with Linux preinstalled.
    - sbierwagen 7y ago
      4K on a 13.4" panel? https://www.sven.de/dpi/ https://www.sven.de/dpi/ says that comes out to a crazy 337 PPI. Current Macbook pro is 226.
      - wmf 7y ago
        It should look fine in 3x mode although it's a waste of GPU.
      - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
gtoast 7y ago
USBC 3.1. Slim design. Integrated gpu. I'm all in. Can't wait.
Ingon 7y ago
This model finally fixes the arrow keys issue I had with the previous ones- because the up arrow key takes up space from the right shift, I was frequently hitting up, instead of shift. 16:9 is ok for 14in laptop, but would be great if we get a 16:10. Still, not a dealbreaker. Everything else sounds great!
martin_a 7y ago
720p webcam? I know this is complaining on a high level, but as smartphones come with 16 MP cameras, why are laptops still so behind?
- dividuum 7y ago
  Feels good enough. I'm not going to take pictures with it, just communicate.
  - martin_a 7y ago
    Never did fullscreen video calls before? I'd love to have 1080p front face webcams.
    - Hamuko 7y ago
      For what purpose are you people even doing video calls for? I've never understood this.
      - martin_a 7y ago
        You know, we humans sometimes like to see each other. It's about facial expressions and feeling companionship or whatever you might call it. You might get it sometime.
        Hamuko 7y ago
        Absolutely no one at my workplace has ever requested anyone else to put on a webcam. And really the only time I can remember someone enabling their webcam was because they wanted to show off their cat. Meetings have gone well without it as well.
        dang 7y ago
        Please don't post like this here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
rgovostes 7y ago
They are showing off that their laptop unfolds flat, but what is the use case for that?
- pengaru 7y ago
  When you're using the laptop's keyboard but a larger external monitor in front of you. Thinkpads have had this ability for as long as I can remember.
  - markstos 7y ago
    I hadn't ever considered that. I'm also not sure I want my desk cat walking across the flattened screen.
    - pengaru 7y ago
      Having used Thinkpads exclusively for decades, I had no idea it was a unique feature and nearly broke the hinge on my ex's Macbook Air when she was sitting across from me and wanted me too see something on her screen. I reached across the table and grabbed the top of her screen pulling it down to horizontal while I leaned over to look down on it while she exclaimed "stop! you're breaking it!" as her keyboard elevated her hands... Fortunately I had my Thinkpad in front of me and immediately demonstrated I wasn't completely insane for expecting it to be fine.
aorth 7y ago
Waiting for reports on build quality...
modzu 7y ago
is it made of aluminum yet?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
holstvoogd 7y ago
Bought a Darter Pro last year, newest version, and as a long time apple user I just want to say: beware, the build quality is another ballpark. There is a reason mac books are 1k more expensive, they are that much better imo. Even with the shitty butterfly keyboard. Not trying to shit on System76, it is a fine laptop and in a couple of ways better than a mbp, just not as 'premium'. Oh, and they have no resale value, I getting offered ~20% of the new price for a laptop that has only been used for a week. Not surprising really, small market and all. And here (NL) nobody knows System76.
- kitsunesoba 7y ago
  Yeah, the specs on system76 stuff looks nice, but they’ve always had fit and finish issues that are a turnoff.
- PascLeRasc 7y ago
  That's partially because System76 doesn't currently design and produce their laptops, they rebrand Clevos. This new Lemur Pro appears to be this model [1] so unfortunately it'll also have poor build quality. From System76's careers page and their posts about Thelio it seems like they'll be designing their own laptops soon, and based on the Thelio I'd bet they'll be much more solid. [1] https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-configurator/purpose/business-and-office-solutions/3804/clevo-l141cu-intel-core-10th-comet-lake-intel-uhd-graphics-620-metal-chassis-mil-std-810g https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-configurator/purpose/b...
- MFLoon 7y ago
  Yea, the build quality is the biggest area it's lacking. I have Lemur from 3 years ago or so (and they still look more or less the same) - and the body is very uninspiring chunky black plastic, and feels flimsy/flexy. The keyboard is fine I suppose, generic chiclet keys which I don't mind at all. But the trackpad is quite mediocre compared to any Macbook.
mark_l_watson 7y ago
Wow, 2.2 pounds, really light weight. I have had one of their Oryx Pro laptops for 18 months and really like it. I don't need a light weight laptop now, but if something happened to my MacBook I would consider it.
ben7799 7y ago
The value of this new Lemur Pro is completely in how well the software works. I had IT at my job buy me a Lemur Pro (previous model) a year or two ago. If I just stayed at my desk all day it would have been better than the Macbook Pro. But software issues were always letting it down, and I was wasting lots of time trying to patch/fix linux configuration issues & bugs. It got to be such a waste of time I gave up and went back to the MBP. Main issues were: - Lots of issues with wifi not connecting, wifi setup 1000x more complex than windows/osx.. mostly around linux not having autodetect on the myriad options on wifi - Switching between wired at the desk and wifi was problematic, difficult to get up with the laptop and go to a meeting - Lots of issues with applications needing to be restarted when switching from external to internal monitors - Lots of extreme battery drain when trying to do certain activities.. e.x. video conferencing apps like zoom, webex, etc.. the fan would go 100% the whole time and the CPU would peg due to video acceleration issues. The battery could drain down 100% in a 30 minute meeting, etc.. I tried 2 different distros. It didn't really make a difference. So realistically.. hardware on this thing is probably fine, if not as fancy looking as a MBP. It has more useful ports, so less need to carry dongles. But it's a time waster in a lot of office/dev environments if the software integration hasn't improved. This is the kind of stuff that wouldn't bother me on a personal laptop where the goal was to hack on linux. But it was a deal breaker on a corporate laptop where I needed to focus on the product.
- eatonphil 7y ago
  Have you tried running Windows 10 on it? I wonder if Windows can handle it any better.
  - cartoonfoxes 7y ago
    The irony in this is highly underappreciated.
- danieldk 7y ago
  I am not sure if this will ever get better. E.g. Intel GPUs that were perfectly fine for quite a while, now have regular hangs with Linux 5.3 and 5.4 [1]. Since Linux 5.4 is an LTS version, various distributions have already switched to it. I had to downgrade to Linux 4.19 on one of my machines, because my GPU locked up ever 1-2 days. Nonsense like this make Linux difficult to use on a laptop that you have to carry around and get real work done. [1] https://linuxreviews.org/Linux_Kernel_5.5_Will_Not_Fix_The_Frequent_Intel_GPU_Hangs_In_Recent_Kernels https://linuxreviews.org/Linux_Kernel_5.5_Will_Not_Fix_The_F...
trey-jones 7y ago
This looks cool. There is an important question that won't be answered for a while yet: How long will the battery continue to give you a 21 hour charge? Things might have changed since the last non-mac laptop I used regularly, but right now I have a 2013 Macbook Pro on the original battery that I still find usable for several hours at a time. I've never known a laptop other than a Macbook that comes close to that. Like I said, my knowledge of the subject is limited and I would love illumination on widely available battery quality in the 2020s. In other news, as it became apparent that my 2013 MBP was not really fit for primary use anymore I went back to a desktop for everyday and I actually love it. I still carry the MBP for remote work and just-in-case, but the HEDC is really, really nice (12 cores, of course), since most of my time is spent in the office anyway.
- throwqwerty 7y ago
  just FYI you can change the battery on that mbp pretty easily https://youtu.be/fupkPz55tUo https://youtu.be/fupkPz55tUo I used shoe laces. just be sure you get the right battery - I had to reorder mine because plug was actually shifted a little.
iso1631 7y ago
No ethernet port, what a shame. Imagine just a few mm thicker, but a dozen extra ports.
- wmf 7y ago
  VAIO SX14?
  - acidburnNSA 7y ago
    But then you get a VGA port.
- mmstick 7y ago
  You can purchase a USB3 to 1G ethernet adapter for $10.
  - iso1631 7y ago
    A right pain, but more importantly you lose your only usb3 port
    - mmstick 7y ago
      Not if the gigabit ethernet adapter is also a USB3 hub, like so: https://www.amazon.com/USB-Ethernet-Splitter-HUB-Network/dp/B07G8VZ51Z https://www.amazon.com/USB-Ethernet-Splitter-HUB-Network/dp/...
babypuncher 7y ago
How are barrel connectors still a thing? Apple figured out the correct way to hook up a power supply over a decade ago. Of all the design decisions manufacturers like to copy from Apple, why do they avoid this one like the plague?
- bloody-crow 7y ago
  If you're taking about magsafe, it's patented. Apple reverted to USB-C charging on all current models, which is not as cool as magsafe, but on the bright side, you can now charge on either side and use the port for other things when not charging.
  - babypuncher 7y ago
    I can appreciate the simplicity and utility of having x identical ports on my laptop and they are all capable of doing everything. That is a worthwhile trade-off in my book, even if I personally would still prefer the option to use MagSafe. Other manufacturers have figured out how to replicate the experience without infringing on Apple's patents, their solutions just aren't as commonly used as I wish they were.
    - izacus 7y ago
      IMO Razer did it better - on my 13" Stealth, there's one USB-C port on each side and one USB-A as well. Not having to look for the * dongle everytime I need to plug in anything is such a blessing after owning MacBooks - and I can still charge the laptop on both sides, with Apple chargers no less.
  - PascLeRasc 7y ago
    Somehow Microsoft is able to produce magnetic chargers for their Surface devices though. It'd be nice if Apple would allow the patent to be breached now that they're not using it.
    - jcrawfordor 7y ago
MrMorden 7y ago
Still no TPM? Seriously?
- wmf 7y ago
  I think the System76 crowd would pay extra to not have a TPM.
esaym 7y ago
I need to update my 8 year old T520 with quad core i7. I've been looking at the system76 series all year but can't really make myself pull the plug on anything. I can get a two year old T580 with similar specs for probably $600 on ebay. But honestly, I'm tired of using Intel laptops (been doing that for over 15 years). Really hoping something more promising (and with better linux compatibility) from AMD powered laptops pop up soon. Lenovo already has some AMD stuff in their smaller T series lineup, but almost nonexistent in the used market (for now).
- erikw 7y ago
  A Lenovo E495 Ryzen 7 U3700 with 32GB RAM and an NVMe will set you back around $600-700 today. Actually more expensive now than it was several months ago, but I would expect these to be inexpensive used within a year. Zero hardware issues in NixOS or Ubuntu, USB-C charging, outputs to 2 external displays plus the internal without any additional fan noise. I've got zero complaints, especially since this is not Lenovo's top business line.
  - lliamander 7y ago
    I have an E495 (but with the 3500U) and the thing runs like a champ. I run Solus on it with no issues. It's build quality is excellent as well: consistent with my work-issued P50s, despite only being a (budget-focused) E-series. I briefly considered getting a T-series, but the presence of soldered RAM is what killed it for me. Unless the RAM has to be soldered and there is some benefit for the consumer (which is what I've heard for LPDDR4 RAM) then soldering RAM just kills the ROI for me. I purchased my with only 8GB of RAM and will upgrade when I find the right deal.
    - erikw 7y ago
      Great point that I forgot to mention, because I take it for granted- this laptop is upgradeable (SATA, NVMe, and RAM), so you don't have to commit 100% upfront, but can upgrade over the life of the computer. Regarding an above comment about the resale value of the Lemur, I'll be interested in how my e495 depreciates over time. It included Windows 10 Pro, which I left on a partition, expecting to dual-boot into. I haven't ended up needing it yet, but it will probably contribute a higher resale price- just delete my Linux partition, resize Windows back to 100%, and toss onto eBay.
skrowl 7y ago
Are they planning on making one that has discrete video? These specs look pretty nice other than that.
estebarb 7y ago
It would be nice if the keyboard comes in other layout like ISO. It would help map keys better in other languages like spanish. I want a key for the Ñ.
ancarda 7y ago
>Security - Disabled ME Does this mean I can (eventually?) run libreboot (coreboot with no binary blobs)?
- wmf 7y ago
  The ME and the FSP blobs have nothing to do with each other.
kdamica 7y ago
Looking forward to seeing reviews of this one. I have a Galago Pro and my biggest issue is the battery size, so it's good that they went with a larger battery here. But I have lots of other issues with it so hopefully this model is better overall. Also curious what "USB Type-C Power Delivery Compatible" means. I can charge over USB but the included charger is an old-style one?
- pathartl 7y ago
  Yes.
pachico 7y ago
It looks definitely a good alternative to XPS, which is what I work with. Both, most importantly, have matte screens. I can't understand how people can code with glossy screens...
- vladvasiliu 7y ago
  I used to think the same, but I think it depends on where you are. Inside, or in fairly low light situations, matte screens are great. However, as I'm currently working from a suburban house and am able to go outside, I've discovered the glossy screen of my 2013 MBP is actually more legible when the sun's up than a matte external monitor (Dell P2415Q), both set to maximum brightness. Sure, there are way more reflections and I have to wear dark clothes, but if I use a light background I can see the text fairly well. On my external display the light is so diffused that the contrast is terrible. Even if there are no reflections, text is so washed out it's much harder to read.
  - pachico 7y ago
    I understand what you say but I prefer not to do workarounds with my working tools. Imagine that, rather than "I wave to wear dark clothes" I said "yes, I must be facing north to work properly" or "I have to hold the USB connection to make work" you would immediately say "no way". :)
purpleidea 7y ago
I want an ethernet port. Don't laptop makers get it? Even one of those slim ones that flip up would work.
- mmstick 7y ago
  Options like so exist: https://www.amazon.com/USB-Ethernet-Splitter-HUB-Network/dp/B07G8VZ51Z https://www.amazon.com/USB-Ethernet-Splitter-HUB-Network/dp/...
Razengan 7y ago
They have made the mistake of including a 720p camera, which, according to some of the comments on MacBook-related posts, makes a laptop nigh unusable and is totally unacceptable in this day and age.
- Koshkin 7y ago
  720p is perfectly fine for a laptop camera.
airstrike 7y ago
I hate specs that are stated like "up to 40 GB DDR4". How much RAM does one get in the base $1,099 model? It seems that info is nowhere to be found
- OJFord 7y ago
  That is annoying, but if you really want to know, I suspect it's almost certainly 8GB.
miohtama 7y ago
Looks interesting! How does it compare against Chromebooks in a similar price range and specifications?
JimmyRuska 7y ago
I've been using linux as my primary operating system for a long time now. The last two laptops I installed linux on, I've had have had multiple problems, even using Pop OS. Dell inspiron bought from costco was awful, had to switch it back to windows. The graphics card never worked, the wifi was flaky. I got a thinkpad e495. Lots of issues, the whole computer freezes when you open chrome, reinstalled everything several times, tried the latest kernel, it won't come back from sleep sometimes and I lose all the things I had open. If system76 can offer solid experience in terms of hardware support on modern specs, I'm happy to pay a premium to get the best experience. I guess it would be also useful if there was some site that ranked new laptops by linux compatibility, I don't want to pay a premium either if it takes 10 minutes to install linux from a USB stick, and people could confirm a machine works well.
- MonaroVXR 7y ago
  I got the ThinkPad E585 also with an AMD SOC. There were some difficulties with the new AMD hardware. https://github.com/StellaArtuois/Installing_Linux_on_ThinkPad_E585 https://github.com/StellaArtuois/Installing_Linux_on_ThinkPa...
Groxx 7y ago
As someone who has never heard of system76: what is this / why should I care? I'm curious, but the "about us" doesn't describe what the business is trying to do, just who's doing it. I assume it's on here for a HN-relevant reason, but I'm not really seeing what it is...
- mmstick 7y ago
  They sell high end Linux systems, and maintain the Ubuntu-based Pop!_OS Linux distribution. The Lemur Pro — and other Intel-only laptops — are running open source firmware developed by System76 in collaboration with Intel. Who buys computers from System76? People that care about buying hardware that's guaranteed to work with Linux, from a company that supports Linux. That ranges from web developers to NASA.
DennisP 7y ago
How are System76 trackpads these days? I bought one of their laptops five years ago and the trackpad was near unusable, the cursor jumped all over the place.
greendave 7y ago
Looks pretty nice. A pity there's no option for the 6-core Comet Lake CPU (10710U). I assume the 40GB RAM limit is from 8GB soldered on, plus 2 slots. 16GB soldered would have been great too. I wonder how Linux's support for USB-C docking stations is these days.
lonelappde 7y ago
> *Tested at the default display brightness measuring watts consumed while separately watching videos on YouTube, reading articles on Wikipedia, and editing in VIM separately. So, they didn't actually measure the 16hr Wikipedia / 21hr vim? They just extrapolated from a non-linear power curve?
- acidburnNSA 7y ago
  They know the Watt-hour capacity of the battery (~70 Wh) and they now know how many watts each activity takes in steady state (W). What's the non-linearity? Does the power usage of those activities change with time, or does the integral capacity of the battery change?
pnathan 7y ago
Cool! My wife and I have System76 laptops, and they work quite well. Congratulations to the System76 team, I look forward to seeing your success as you go forward.
villgax 7y ago
A physical toggle for 1660ti & this would be the best laptop
jeffFrom18F 7y ago
The advertised battery life appeals to me, if it does indeed work as advertised. I have a 3-year-old Oryx Pro, which I probably over-indexed on performance on. Everything about it is great with the exception of the battery life which is usually < 1 hour (surfing the net or programming, nothing crazy). I would have gone with a different offering if I had known this.
- acidburnNSA 7y ago
  That's what I've been reading about those a lot. I think they took the feedback seriously and packed this thing with a real whopper of a battery. I'm pretty excited by this development.
abinaya_codes 7y ago
That's a great configuration laptop. Looking forward to try my hands-on it.
aoeusnth1 7y ago
Now might not be a good time to buy laptops with the new AMD 4000 APUs coming in the next few weeks.
utxaa 7y ago
for ~ the same price: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-air/space-gray-1.1ghz-dual-core-core-i3-processor-with-turbo-boost-up-to-3.2ghz-256gb# https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-air/space-gray-1.... https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/configure/Surface-Laptop-3/8VFGGH1R94TM?crosssellid=drawer2&selectedColor=CBB1A0&preview=&previewModes= https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/configure/Surface-Lapt... https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-series/c/thinkpadt#compareSection https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-ser... -

313 points by _jordan 7y ago

Looks nice, uses coreboot and disables ME :), i5/i7, "Up to 40 GB DDR4", "2× M.2 SSD. Up to 4TB total." Holy cow that's a powerful machine. > USB Type-C Power Delivery Compatible It's capable of charging by USB-C? Then why does it have the old-style circular power jack?

baybal2 7y ago
Backup? Higher current option?
peatmoss 7y ago
I’ve wondered this with systems like my work-provided HP Elitebook as well. Best I can think of is that some customers may require the ability to charge a laptop via a port that doesn’t also double as a data port? Given some of the crazy hardware security attacks we’ve seen over the years, I’m a lot more paranoid about plugging in a rando USB-C cable than plugging in a barrel connector. That said, knowing to look for tip polarity, voltage, and available amperage is a lot to ask of people. I wish we had a standardized power-only charger option.
nixpulvis 7y ago
Just a guess, but charging by the old school barrel jacks requires next to no protocol support. You just need to provide the correct voltage, and supply enough current. Whereas with USB-C, you need to speak USB-C before it'll charge. EDIT: oh, and it gives you the ability to avoid potential security attack vectors.
tw04 7y ago
Because it only has a single usb-c port. They probably want people to have the option of charging the laptop while also plugging in something over usb-c. Why they didn't just do two usb-c ports, I don't know. Maybe someone from System 76 can answer that.
- bluGill 7y ago
  They don't make their own laptops (yet, it is in the plan but probably not for 10 years), they buy enough laptops to have input on how they are designed, but in the end they don't get everything they want. Edit: 10 years is my guess. There are hints they might make their own laptops sooner. Time will tell.
ahoneybun 7y ago
You'll need to use the barrel charger for applying firmware updates. The Lemur Pro has additional circuitry to support changing the battery even if it completely drained.
- nixpulvis 7y ago
  Wait, ignoring firmware... you need to have some charge in order to charge with USB-C? Couldn't it use the lowest power modes until it has enough juice to communicate? This seems like a serious flaw with USB PD.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Go long enough and even your minimal charge is exhausted
    - giovannibajo1 7y ago
      Then how can Macs be charged if they are fully exhausted?
      - bluGill 7y ago
        I have no idea. Maybe they can't, but we won't find out for 5 years when someone brings one out of a closet. Maybe there is enough current leakage when in non charging mode for them to run that much electronics.
  - jackpot51 7y ago
    This is inaccurate, the Lemur Pro supports charging through USB-C with a dead battery.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    That seems to be an implementation flaw. USB-C provides 5V by default with no negotiation which should be enough to power the controller and allow it to negotiate a higher voltage.

emsy 7y ago

If it wasn't for the 16:9 screen I'd buy it in an instant. Specs are sufficient for me, the battery life sounds enticing and the screen is matte. I'm just curious if I'm the only one that has such a strong preference for a less wide screen ratio.

jacek 7y ago
No, I would also love a laptop with 3:2 or 16:10 screen. And a Ryzen 4000 APU. Actually System76 might offer self manufactured laptops with AMD Ryzen in the future [1]. I hope they will consider a better display then. Currently they are basically rebranding Chinese laptops (like Clevo). [1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=System76-AMD-Laptop-Possibility https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=System76...
- pengaru 7y ago
  Is this Lemur Pro yet another marked-up rebrand?
  - jacek 7y ago
    Looks like Clevo L141CU [1] [1] https://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_prodetail.asp?id=1264&lang=en#tabs-1 https://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_prodetail.asp?id=1264&lang=en...
- e12e 7y ago
  Looks like Microsoft surface with ryzen 4000 might be comming. Will be interesting to see if it fares any better than previous Gen vs Intel, though: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15213/the-microsoft-surface-laptop-3-showdown-amd-picasso-vs-intel-ice-lake https://www.anandtech.com/show/15213/the-microsoft-surface-l... Rumor: https://www.techradar.com/au/news/amd-ryzen-4000-powered-microsoft-surface-device-may-be-coming-soon https://www.techradar.com/au/news/amd-ryzen-4000-powered-mic... Still waiting for full touch support for surface pro 4 in mainline Linux - other than that it's a pretty snazzy machine. The keyboard is great (if not quite IBM era thinkpad great.. But what is?). Would prefer a matte screen though.

baybal2 7y ago

73Wh battery, not bad in such a slim design!

acidburnNSA 7y ago
So epic. They got lots of complaints of battery life in the earlier models, and that was the one thing keeping me from pulling the trigger. With this huge battery and these specs I will have a really hard time not buying this to replace my old Vaio.

eugeniub 7y ago

Very cool overall, but to me USB-C is the default port I use. Most of my cables are USB-C on one end, not USB-A. I can't see myself buying a laptop with just one USB-C port. Does it even charge via USB-C? It says "USB Type-C Power Delivery Compatible" but I don't know if that's just power out or power in as well.

outworlder 7y ago
How the tables have turned.
ahoneybun 7y ago
It does though the barrel connection needs to be used for firmware updates. The Lemur Pro has additional circuitry to charge the battery even if it is dead.

onionionion 7y ago

I've been looking for a non-mac machine to replace a 2017 macbook pro, and this looks great, but I can't divorce myself from the higher dpi screen. If this could match the mbp I'd order right now.

ambulancechaser 7y ago

I would purchase today except there doesn't seem to be any screen options higher than 1080. I can't go back to 1080 after years of 4k monitors and mbp retina for work and x1 carbon 2k screen on personal laptop.

nkkollaw 7y ago
Also, 16:9. Apple laptops are barely usable at 16:10, it's night and day compared to 3:2 on Surface Books (my favorite laptop of all time by far).
PascLeRasc 7y ago
I wish someone else besides Apple would discover the 16:10 ratio. I love my MBP but every company I've worked at has been allergic to OS X. Right now I'm stuck working from home on a 1366x768 screen because it's "business-class".
- wmf 7y ago
  Dell went 16:10 this year.
- alphadevx 7y ago
  The 2020 model of Dell XPS 13 has 16:10 @ 4K AFAIK. If you get the Developer Edition, it comes with Linux preinstalled.
  - sbierwagen 7y ago
    4K on a 13.4" panel? https://www.sven.de/dpi/ https://www.sven.de/dpi/ says that comes out to a crazy 337 PPI. Current Macbook pro is 226.
    - wmf 7y ago
      It should look fine in 3x mode although it's a waste of GPU.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago

gtoast 7y ago

USBC 3.1. Slim design. Integrated gpu. I'm all in. Can't wait.

Ingon 7y ago

This model finally fixes the arrow keys issue I had with the previous ones- because the up arrow key takes up space from the right shift, I was frequently hitting up, instead of shift. 16:9 is ok for 14in laptop, but would be great if we get a 16:10. Still, not a dealbreaker. Everything else sounds great!

martin_a 7y ago

720p webcam? I know this is complaining on a high level, but as smartphones come with 16 MP cameras, why are laptops still so behind?

dividuum 7y ago
Feels good enough. I'm not going to take pictures with it, just communicate.
- martin_a 7y ago
  Never did fullscreen video calls before? I'd love to have 1080p front face webcams.
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    For what purpose are you people even doing video calls for? I've never understood this.
    - martin_a 7y ago
      You know, we humans sometimes like to see each other. It's about facial expressions and feeling companionship or whatever you might call it. You might get it sometime.
      - Hamuko 7y ago
        Absolutely no one at my workplace has ever requested anyone else to put on a webcam. And really the only time I can remember someone enabling their webcam was because they wanted to show off their cat. Meetings have gone well without it as well.
      - dang 7y ago
        Please don't post like this here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

rgovostes 7y ago

They are showing off that their laptop unfolds flat, but what is the use case for that?

pengaru 7y ago
When you're using the laptop's keyboard but a larger external monitor in front of you. Thinkpads have had this ability for as long as I can remember.
- markstos 7y ago
  I hadn't ever considered that. I'm also not sure I want my desk cat walking across the flattened screen.
  - pengaru 7y ago
    Having used Thinkpads exclusively for decades, I had no idea it was a unique feature and nearly broke the hinge on my ex's Macbook Air when she was sitting across from me and wanted me too see something on her screen. I reached across the table and grabbed the top of her screen pulling it down to horizontal while I leaned over to look down on it while she exclaimed "stop! you're breaking it!" as her keyboard elevated her hands... Fortunately I had my Thinkpad in front of me and immediately demonstrated I wasn't completely insane for expecting it to be fine.

aorth 7y ago

Waiting for reports on build quality...

modzu 7y ago

is it made of aluminum yet?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

holstvoogd 7y ago

Bought a Darter Pro last year, newest version, and as a long time apple user I just want to say: beware, the build quality is another ballpark. There is a reason mac books are 1k more expensive, they are that much better imo. Even with the shitty butterfly keyboard. Not trying to shit on System76, it is a fine laptop and in a couple of ways better than a mbp, just not as 'premium'. Oh, and they have no resale value, I getting offered ~20% of the new price for a laptop that has only been used for a week. Not surprising really, small market and all. And here (NL) nobody knows System76.

kitsunesoba 7y ago
Yeah, the specs on system76 stuff looks nice, but they’ve always had fit and finish issues that are a turnoff.
PascLeRasc 7y ago
That's partially because System76 doesn't currently design and produce their laptops, they rebrand Clevos. This new Lemur Pro appears to be this model [1] so unfortunately it'll also have poor build quality. From System76's careers page and their posts about Thelio it seems like they'll be designing their own laptops soon, and based on the Thelio I'd bet they'll be much more solid. [1] https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-configurator/purpose/business-and-office-solutions/3804/clevo-l141cu-intel-core-10th-comet-lake-intel-uhd-graphics-620-metal-chassis-mil-std-810g https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-configurator/purpose/b...
MFLoon 7y ago
Yea, the build quality is the biggest area it's lacking. I have Lemur from 3 years ago or so (and they still look more or less the same) - and the body is very uninspiring chunky black plastic, and feels flimsy/flexy. The keyboard is fine I suppose, generic chiclet keys which I don't mind at all. But the trackpad is quite mediocre compared to any Macbook.

mark_l_watson 7y ago

Wow, 2.2 pounds, really light weight. I have had one of their Oryx Pro laptops for 18 months and really like it. I don't need a light weight laptop now, but if something happened to my MacBook I would consider it.

ben7799 7y ago

The value of this new Lemur Pro is completely in how well the software works. I had IT at my job buy me a Lemur Pro (previous model) a year or two ago. If I just stayed at my desk all day it would have been better than the Macbook Pro. But software issues were always letting it down, and I was wasting lots of time trying to patch/fix linux configuration issues & bugs. It got to be such a waste of time I gave up and went back to the MBP. Main issues were: - Lots of issues with wifi not connecting, wifi setup 1000x more complex than windows/osx.. mostly around linux not having autodetect on the myriad options on wifi - Switching between wired at the desk and wifi was problematic, difficult to get up with the laptop and go to a meeting - Lots of issues with applications needing to be restarted when switching from external to internal monitors - Lots of extreme battery drain when trying to do certain activities.. e.x. video conferencing apps like zoom, webex, etc.. the fan would go 100% the whole time and the CPU would peg due to video acceleration issues. The battery could drain down 100% in a 30 minute meeting, etc.. I tried 2 different distros. It didn't really make a difference. So realistically.. hardware on this thing is probably fine, if not as fancy looking as a MBP. It has more useful ports, so less need to carry dongles. But it's a time waster in a lot of office/dev environments if the software integration hasn't improved. This is the kind of stuff that wouldn't bother me on a personal laptop where the goal was to hack on linux. But it was a deal breaker on a corporate laptop where I needed to focus on the product.

eatonphil 7y ago
Have you tried running Windows 10 on it? I wonder if Windows can handle it any better.
- cartoonfoxes 7y ago
  The irony in this is highly underappreciated.
danieldk 7y ago
I am not sure if this will ever get better. E.g. Intel GPUs that were perfectly fine for quite a while, now have regular hangs with Linux 5.3 and 5.4 [1]. Since Linux 5.4 is an LTS version, various distributions have already switched to it. I had to downgrade to Linux 4.19 on one of my machines, because my GPU locked up ever 1-2 days. Nonsense like this make Linux difficult to use on a laptop that you have to carry around and get real work done. [1] https://linuxreviews.org/Linux_Kernel_5.5_Will_Not_Fix_The_Frequent_Intel_GPU_Hangs_In_Recent_Kernels https://linuxreviews.org/Linux_Kernel_5.5_Will_Not_Fix_The_F...

trey-jones 7y ago

This looks cool. There is an important question that won't be answered for a while yet: How long will the battery continue to give you a 21 hour charge? Things might have changed since the last non-mac laptop I used regularly, but right now I have a 2013 Macbook Pro on the original battery that I still find usable for several hours at a time. I've never known a laptop other than a Macbook that comes close to that. Like I said, my knowledge of the subject is limited and I would love illumination on widely available battery quality in the 2020s. In other news, as it became apparent that my 2013 MBP was not really fit for primary use anymore I went back to a desktop for everyday and I actually love it. I still carry the MBP for remote work and just-in-case, but the HEDC is really, really nice (12 cores, of course), since most of my time is spent in the office anyway.

throwqwerty 7y ago
just FYI you can change the battery on that mbp pretty easily https://youtu.be/fupkPz55tUo https://youtu.be/fupkPz55tUo I used shoe laces. just be sure you get the right battery - I had to reorder mine because plug was actually shifted a little.

iso1631 7y ago

No ethernet port, what a shame. Imagine just a few mm thicker, but a dozen extra ports.

wmf 7y ago
VAIO SX14?
- acidburnNSA 7y ago
  But then you get a VGA port.
mmstick 7y ago
You can purchase a USB3 to 1G ethernet adapter for $10.
- iso1631 7y ago
  A right pain, but more importantly you lose your only usb3 port
  - mmstick 7y ago
    Not if the gigabit ethernet adapter is also a USB3 hub, like so: https://www.amazon.com/USB-Ethernet-Splitter-HUB-Network/dp/B07G8VZ51Z https://www.amazon.com/USB-Ethernet-Splitter-HUB-Network/dp/...

babypuncher 7y ago

How are barrel connectors still a thing? Apple figured out the correct way to hook up a power supply over a decade ago. Of all the design decisions manufacturers like to copy from Apple, why do they avoid this one like the plague?

bloody-crow 7y ago
If you're taking about magsafe, it's patented. Apple reverted to USB-C charging on all current models, which is not as cool as magsafe, but on the bright side, you can now charge on either side and use the port for other things when not charging.
- babypuncher 7y ago
  I can appreciate the simplicity and utility of having x identical ports on my laptop and they are all capable of doing everything. That is a worthwhile trade-off in my book, even if I personally would still prefer the option to use MagSafe. Other manufacturers have figured out how to replicate the experience without infringing on Apple's patents, their solutions just aren't as commonly used as I wish they were.
  - izacus 7y ago
    IMO Razer did it better - on my 13" Stealth, there's one USB-C port on each side and one USB-A as well. Not having to look for the * dongle everytime I need to plug in anything is such a blessing after owning MacBooks - and I can still charge the laptop on both sides, with Apple chargers no less.
- PascLeRasc 7y ago
  Somehow Microsoft is able to produce magnetic chargers for their Surface devices though. It'd be nice if Apple would allow the patent to be breached now that they're not using it.
  - jcrawfordor 7y ago

MrMorden 7y ago

Still no TPM? Seriously?

wmf 7y ago
I think the System76 crowd would pay extra to not have a TPM.

esaym 7y ago

I need to update my 8 year old T520 with quad core i7. I've been looking at the system76 series all year but can't really make myself pull the plug on anything. I can get a two year old T580 with similar specs for probably $600 on ebay. But honestly, I'm tired of using Intel laptops (been doing that for over 15 years). Really hoping something more promising (and with better linux compatibility) from AMD powered laptops pop up soon. Lenovo already has some AMD stuff in their smaller T series lineup, but almost nonexistent in the used market (for now).

erikw 7y ago
A Lenovo E495 Ryzen 7 U3700 with 32GB RAM and an NVMe will set you back around $600-700 today. Actually more expensive now than it was several months ago, but I would expect these to be inexpensive used within a year. Zero hardware issues in NixOS or Ubuntu, USB-C charging, outputs to 2 external displays plus the internal without any additional fan noise. I've got zero complaints, especially since this is not Lenovo's top business line.
- lliamander 7y ago
  I have an E495 (but with the 3500U) and the thing runs like a champ. I run Solus on it with no issues. It's build quality is excellent as well: consistent with my work-issued P50s, despite only being a (budget-focused) E-series. I briefly considered getting a T-series, but the presence of soldered RAM is what killed it for me. Unless the RAM has to be soldered and there is some benefit for the consumer (which is what I've heard for LPDDR4 RAM) then soldering RAM just kills the ROI for me. I purchased my with only 8GB of RAM and will upgrade when I find the right deal.
  - erikw 7y ago
    Great point that I forgot to mention, because I take it for granted- this laptop is upgradeable (SATA, NVMe, and RAM), so you don't have to commit 100% upfront, but can upgrade over the life of the computer. Regarding an above comment about the resale value of the Lemur, I'll be interested in how my e495 depreciates over time. It included Windows 10 Pro, which I left on a partition, expecting to dual-boot into. I haven't ended up needing it yet, but it will probably contribute a higher resale price- just delete my Linux partition, resize Windows back to 100%, and toss onto eBay.

skrowl 7y ago

Are they planning on making one that has discrete video? These specs look pretty nice other than that.

estebarb 7y ago

It would be nice if the keyboard comes in other layout like ISO. It would help map keys better in other languages like spanish. I want a key for the Ñ.

ancarda 7y ago

>Security - Disabled ME Does this mean I can (eventually?) run libreboot (coreboot with no binary blobs)?

wmf 7y ago
The ME and the FSP blobs have nothing to do with each other.

kdamica 7y ago

Looking forward to seeing reviews of this one. I have a Galago Pro and my biggest issue is the battery size, so it's good that they went with a larger battery here. But I have lots of other issues with it so hopefully this model is better overall. Also curious what "USB Type-C Power Delivery Compatible" means. I can charge over USB but the included charger is an old-style one?

pathartl 7y ago
Yes.

pachico 7y ago

It looks definitely a good alternative to XPS, which is what I work with. Both, most importantly, have matte screens. I can't understand how people can code with glossy screens...

vladvasiliu 7y ago
I used to think the same, but I think it depends on where you are. Inside, or in fairly low light situations, matte screens are great. However, as I'm currently working from a suburban house and am able to go outside, I've discovered the glossy screen of my 2013 MBP is actually more legible when the sun's up than a matte external monitor (Dell P2415Q), both set to maximum brightness. Sure, there are way more reflections and I have to wear dark clothes, but if I use a light background I can see the text fairly well. On my external display the light is so diffused that the contrast is terrible. Even if there are no reflections, text is so washed out it's much harder to read.
- pachico 7y ago
  I understand what you say but I prefer not to do workarounds with my working tools. Imagine that, rather than "I wave to wear dark clothes" I said "yes, I must be facing north to work properly" or "I have to hold the USB connection to make work" you would immediately say "no way". :)

purpleidea 7y ago

I want an ethernet port. Don't laptop makers get it? Even one of those slim ones that flip up would work.

mmstick 7y ago
Options like so exist: https://www.amazon.com/USB-Ethernet-Splitter-HUB-Network/dp/B07G8VZ51Z https://www.amazon.com/USB-Ethernet-Splitter-HUB-Network/dp/...

Razengan 7y ago

They have made the mistake of including a 720p camera, which, according to some of the comments on MacBook-related posts, makes a laptop nigh unusable and is totally unacceptable in this day and age.

Koshkin 7y ago
720p is perfectly fine for a laptop camera.

airstrike 7y ago

I hate specs that are stated like "up to 40 GB DDR4". How much RAM does one get in the base $1,099 model? It seems that info is nowhere to be found

OJFord 7y ago
That is annoying, but if you really want to know, I suspect it's almost certainly 8GB.

miohtama 7y ago

Looks interesting! How does it compare against Chromebooks in a similar price range and specifications?

JimmyRuska 7y ago

I've been using linux as my primary operating system for a long time now. The last two laptops I installed linux on, I've had have had multiple problems, even using Pop OS. Dell inspiron bought from costco was awful, had to switch it back to windows. The graphics card never worked, the wifi was flaky. I got a thinkpad e495. Lots of issues, the whole computer freezes when you open chrome, reinstalled everything several times, tried the latest kernel, it won't come back from sleep sometimes and I lose all the things I had open. If system76 can offer solid experience in terms of hardware support on modern specs, I'm happy to pay a premium to get the best experience. I guess it would be also useful if there was some site that ranked new laptops by linux compatibility, I don't want to pay a premium either if it takes 10 minutes to install linux from a USB stick, and people could confirm a machine works well.

MonaroVXR 7y ago
I got the ThinkPad E585 also with an AMD SOC. There were some difficulties with the new AMD hardware. https://github.com/StellaArtuois/Installing_Linux_on_ThinkPad_E585 https://github.com/StellaArtuois/Installing_Linux_on_ThinkPa...

Groxx 7y ago

As someone who has never heard of system76: what is this / why should I care? I'm curious, but the "about us" doesn't describe what the business is trying to do, just who's doing it. I assume it's on here for a HN-relevant reason, but I'm not really seeing what it is...

mmstick 7y ago
They sell high end Linux systems, and maintain the Ubuntu-based Pop!_OS Linux distribution. The Lemur Pro — and other Intel-only laptops — are running open source firmware developed by System76 in collaboration with Intel. Who buys computers from System76? People that care about buying hardware that's guaranteed to work with Linux, from a company that supports Linux. That ranges from web developers to NASA.

DennisP 7y ago

How are System76 trackpads these days? I bought one of their laptops five years ago and the trackpad was near unusable, the cursor jumped all over the place.

greendave 7y ago

Looks pretty nice. A pity there's no option for the 6-core Comet Lake CPU (10710U). I assume the 40GB RAM limit is from 8GB soldered on, plus 2 slots. 16GB soldered would have been great too. I wonder how Linux's support for USB-C docking stations is these days.

lonelappde 7y ago

> *Tested at the default display brightness measuring watts consumed while separately watching videos on YouTube, reading articles on Wikipedia, and editing in VIM separately. So, they didn't actually measure the 16hr Wikipedia / 21hr vim? They just extrapolated from a non-linear power curve?

acidburnNSA 7y ago
They know the Watt-hour capacity of the battery (~70 Wh) and they now know how many watts each activity takes in steady state (W). What's the non-linearity? Does the power usage of those activities change with time, or does the integral capacity of the battery change?

pnathan 7y ago

Cool! My wife and I have System76 laptops, and they work quite well. Congratulations to the System76 team, I look forward to seeing your success as you go forward.

villgax 7y ago

A physical toggle for 1660ti & this would be the best laptop

jeffFrom18F 7y ago

The advertised battery life appeals to me, if it does indeed work as advertised. I have a 3-year-old Oryx Pro, which I probably over-indexed on performance on. Everything about it is great with the exception of the battery life which is usually < 1 hour (surfing the net or programming, nothing crazy). I would have gone with a different offering if I had known this.

acidburnNSA 7y ago
That's what I've been reading about those a lot. I think they took the feedback seriously and packed this thing with a real whopper of a battery. I'm pretty excited by this development.

abinaya_codes 7y ago

That's a great configuration laptop. Looking forward to try my hands-on it.

aoeusnth1 7y ago

Now might not be a good time to buy laptops with the new AMD 4000 APUs coming in the next few weeks.

utxaa 7y ago

for ~ the same price: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-air/space-gray-1.1ghz-dual-core-core-i3-processor-with-turbo-boost-up-to-3.2ghz-256gb# https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-air/space-gray-1.... https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/configure/Surface-Laptop-3/8VFGGH1R94TM?crosssellid=drawer2&selectedColor=CBB1A0&preview=&previewModes= https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/configure/Surface-Lapt... https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-series/c/thinkpadt#compareSection https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-ser... -