6 ms·

The whole blaming people for hoarding masks and then the "masks don't work" things have been incredibly frustrating. It is almost like authorities didn't want a

by erentz 7y ago

The whole blaming people for hoarding masks and then the "masks don't work" things have been incredibly frustrating. It is almost like authorities didn't want anyone to start asking why the public couldn't get masks, as they can in say Taiwan. Most (if not all) distributors and manufacturers of masks has been prioritizing health care systems and governments over retailers since January. Just as they should do. Were there any that weren't? I didn't see any reports of that, but if so of course the proper thing is to report them and talk to them. Not to blame random joe for having a mask. The fact was since January retail supplies were only existing stock, which as we know was quickly sold out with a lot being sent back to family overseas (no judgement there). And I haven't seen any masks being restocked at any hardware stores or pharmacies since. At no time did I hear about authorities going around every pharmacy or home depot to try to collect any masks. Why? Because they knew there were no supplies and what was there was so small it'd make no dent in the problem. So blaming the public is grossly irresponsible and even put people in danger. I have an immune compromised friend that was responsibly using masks but got harassed for wearing masks "that don't work". And there were plenty of similar reports of such behavior from others.

ceejayoz 7y ago
Washington state just seized a restock from a Target in Seattle. https://twitter.com/GovInslee/status/1241505423259099136 https://twitter.com/GovInslee/status/1241505423259099136
- whatshisface 7y ago
  The message to commercial entities is clear: don't bother responding.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    If you're gonna respond by selling N95s to consumers right now, instead of to hospitals, then I'd rather you didn't bother responding.
    - catalogia 7y ago
      More masks is better than fewer masks, even if they are distributed sub-optimaly.
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        Target is not making masks. Target is buying masks for resale. The US government, given any sense, should be forbidding private sale of these masks until there's enough supply in hospitals and other critical spots. It shouldn't be hard for a mask distributor to find a hospital willing to buy right now.
        catalogia 7y ago
        The action sends a message to the producers of masks too; that they shouldn't bother trying to meet the public's demand for masks by massively scaling up production because the government won't allow those sales. By suppressing perceived demand for masks, the economics of scaling up production become less appealing to manufacturers.
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        The government can, and should, guarantee they'll purchase as many as you can make right now. They could, in fact, order that production. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 Trump's been hemming and hawing on invoking it for several days now. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/medical-orgs-urge-trump-to-invoke-defense-production-act-to-help-with-supplies https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/medical-orgs-urge-trump-t... > Health care professionals from the American Hospital Association (AHA), the American Medical Association (AMA), and the American Nurses Association (ANA) sent a joint letter to President Donald Trump on Saturday pleading for more medical supplies amid the COVID-19 pandemic. > In the letter, the three organizations implored Trump to utilize the Defense Production Act (DPA) to help with the “dwindling supplies” of respirators, surgical masks, and other necessary tools.
  - simonh 7y ago
    I'd say it's "don't be assholes".
- tathougies 7y ago
  I hope by seized e means try bought them at market price. While supportive of strict social distancing measures I do not think any governor or president can suddenly start tossing basic civil rights. The rise of authoritarian language from state leaders is very concerning
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    I suspect this was voluntary, but governors and the President have a lot of extra powers once an emergency is formally declared. (Which it has.) For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950
    - takeda 7y ago
      And they still didn't invoke it, but instead asking for this https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/doj-suspend-constitutional-rights-coronavirus-970935/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/doj-susp...
      - tathougies 7y ago
        It is available to be invoked but it is better that we dont have to use it to compel manufacturers and can instead ask nicely. Currently all manufacturers are basically complying without compulsion.
    - tathougies 7y ago
      Yes they have the power to compel a sale but the government has to pay. And the defense production act is not relevant to governors. Governors have sovereign executive power in their state including ordinary police power. The federal government does not ordinarily have that power which is why they need an act of congress.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    It should be seized and compensated with eminent domain. Buying implies right of refusal and no, I don't think that Target should be able to stockpile N95 masks in its warehouses.
- ISL 7y ago
  It is not clear from the post whether they were seized or purchased by the state. There are (comparatively) plenty of financial resources around, just not a lot of masks.
  - bdavis__ 7y ago
    they were purchased. the government does not just take property. in the end it may be the GSA price, which may not be the same as target was expecting to retail it at.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      > the government does not just take property lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U...
      - ISL 7y ago
        Or, closer to the issue at hand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain I don't have time to look right now, but I suspect most states (and the feds) have the ability to repurpose private assets in emergencies, with some constraints.
        davrosthedalek 7y ago
        That requires "just compensation".
- erentz 7y ago
  I really want to hear the back story on this. Who is the distributor? Why did they end up at a Target? I'm betting the distributor tried to sell them to hospitals but the hospitals said they weren't appropriate/certified for medical use so couldn't take them? Not much to go on from a tweet but definitely needs investigating.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    The respirators in question have exhalation valves[1], so they definitely wouldn't be normally certified for medical use. [1] https://twitter.com/anndornfeld/status/1241372544764006400/photo/1 https://twitter.com/anndornfeld/status/1241372544764006400/p...
    - oasisbob 7y ago
      That's a good point. Guessing the fix is to tape over the port?
    - kps 7y ago
      Looked this up… “Respirators with exhalation valves can be used in a healthcare setting when it is not important to maintain a sterile field (an example of an acceptable practice would be when taking the temperature or blood pressure of a patient). Respirators with exhalation valves should not be used in situations where a sterile field is required (e.g., during an invasive procedure in an operating or procedure room) because the exhalation valve allows unfiltered exhaled air to escape into the sterile field.” https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/topics/respirators/disp_part/respsource3healthcare.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/topics/respirators/disp_part...
      - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
        Interesting. It still seems like these respirators would have been earmarked for industrial use, but I didn't realize they could normally be used in healthcare at all.
  - porknubbins 7y ago
- oasisbob 7y ago
  Target donated them. Not seized, nor sold. https://twitter.com/Target/status/1241507826096377858?s=20 https://twitter.com/Target/status/1241507826096377858?s=20
CivBase 7y ago
> It is almost like authorities didn't want anyone to start asking why the public couldn't get masks, as they can in say Taiwan. It appeared to be very common for citizens to wear masks in eastern Asia long before this pandemic. I'm not the least bit surprised they were more prepared to scale up production.
jliptzin 7y ago
Yea this is really frustrating. I bought a box of 10 N-95s in January when I saw what was going on in China and figured they’d be good to have, since I have older people in my family who are in poor health (leukemia, diabetes, heart disease). Now since I’m shopping and cooking for them, I am trying really hard not to get sick so I wear a mask to the stores and I’m getting looks from people like I stole them from a hospital. How about we blame the government for not ramping up production of masks back in January when even I knew this was going to be a problem?
- OJFord 7y ago
  > Now since I’m shopping and cooking for them, I am trying really hard not to get sick so I wear a mask to the stores and I’m getting looks from people like I stole them from a hospital. I have an N99 (actually FFP3, a pretty much equivalent European standard I gather) from some DIY work a year or so ago; I haven't been out in some time, but when I did I didn't wear it for the same reason. It will be interesting to see what happens to production, and commercial & residential stockpiles when we do get back to something resembling normality. I suspect there'll be a marked increase in non-Asian* routine mask-wearers on public transport, for example. (* it was a lot more common among that group anyway, so I'm not so sure in my speculation that it would increase so much.)
  - MiroF 7y ago
    This will probably hit us culturally the way SARS hit east Asia in the early aughts. The good news is that we likely won't be caught completely flat footed against a pandemic again.
    - catalogia 7y ago
      Unfortunately many authorities are trying to stamp out public mask culture in the west before it even has a chance to properly develop. I think this is penny wise, pound foolish. It's short term thinking that optimizes for the present at the expense of the future.
Jare 7y ago
- If you tell the public that masks are great protection, and the public can't find then to buy, that is a huge source of unrest. - The messaging (in Spain but looks similar everywhere) has been that you should wear one if you are sick or, more importantly here, if you are at risk. This is a clear indication that they do help protect against being infected. This should have prevented everyone from harassing anyone wearing one ("they must be a risk group"). The fact that people did that is indication that people are not acting responsibly. I personally hate being told something that is patently false, but I totally understand that, collectively, we need to be lied to for our own protection, because collectively we become a bunch of idiots.
- MiroF 7y ago
  > I personally hate being told something that is patently false, but I totally understand that, collectively, we need to be lied to for our own protection, because collectively we become a bunch of idiots. Yep, I understand this. I've also noticed recent emphasis on the danger of the virus to young people (like this somewhat misleading NYT article [1], although I just noticed that they recently updated it), I suspect because they want young people to stay home. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-people.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-...
  - acqq 7y ago
    Young people aren't automatically immune: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226440/three-junior-doctors-aged-30-struck-down-by-coronavirus-in-the-same-hospital/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226440/three-junior-doctors-... No sane medical person would connect three 30-years doctors to the breathing machines ("ventilators") unless they actually had to be connected to them: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/ventilators-do-work-does-feel-like-one/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/ventilators-... And the "invasive" ones (see the picture) are the last chance for people to survive, but it's best not to come that far: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-8131947/Engineering-giants-race-build-20-000-new-medical-ventilators.html https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-8131947/Eng... That's why it's in the interest of everybody for the hospitals to remain functional and that the current speed of growth gets at least significantly reduced. That's why "the curve" has to be "spread."
susanhi 7y ago
The government should have contracted mask manufacturers 2 months ago to ramp their mask production, both for medical staff and for the public. They still haven’t done this to date. Beyond frustrating.
- hackermailman 7y ago
  No government did this, even when months ago China was shutting down it's factories and locking down a hundred million people zero preparation was done by all of our politicians. My country ran out of masks two weeks ago and people are just wearing makeshift masks

by erentz 7y ago

ceejayoz 7y ago

Washington state just seized a restock from a Target in Seattle. https://twitter.com/GovInslee/status/1241505423259099136 https://twitter.com/GovInslee/status/1241505423259099136

whatshisface 7y ago
The message to commercial entities is clear: don't bother responding.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  If you're gonna respond by selling N95s to consumers right now, instead of to hospitals, then I'd rather you didn't bother responding.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    More masks is better than fewer masks, even if they are distributed sub-optimaly.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      Target is not making masks. Target is buying masks for resale. The US government, given any sense, should be forbidding private sale of these masks until there's enough supply in hospitals and other critical spots. It shouldn't be hard for a mask distributor to find a hospital willing to buy right now.
      - catalogia 7y ago
        The action sends a message to the producers of masks too; that they shouldn't bother trying to meet the public's demand for masks by massively scaling up production because the government won't allow those sales. By suppressing perceived demand for masks, the economics of scaling up production become less appealing to manufacturers.
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        The government can, and should, guarantee they'll purchase as many as you can make right now. They could, in fact, order that production. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 Trump's been hemming and hawing on invoking it for several days now. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/medical-orgs-urge-trump-to-invoke-defense-production-act-to-help-with-supplies https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/medical-orgs-urge-trump-t... > Health care professionals from the American Hospital Association (AHA), the American Medical Association (AMA), and the American Nurses Association (ANA) sent a joint letter to President Donald Trump on Saturday pleading for more medical supplies amid the COVID-19 pandemic. > In the letter, the three organizations implored Trump to utilize the Defense Production Act (DPA) to help with the “dwindling supplies” of respirators, surgical masks, and other necessary tools.
- simonh 7y ago
  I'd say it's "don't be assholes".
tathougies 7y ago
I hope by seized e means try bought them at market price. While supportive of strict social distancing measures I do not think any governor or president can suddenly start tossing basic civil rights. The rise of authoritarian language from state leaders is very concerning
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  I suspect this was voluntary, but governors and the President have a lot of extra powers once an emergency is formally declared. (Which it has.) For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950
  - takeda 7y ago
    And they still didn't invoke it, but instead asking for this https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/doj-suspend-constitutional-rights-coronavirus-970935/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/doj-susp...
    - tathougies 7y ago
      It is available to be invoked but it is better that we dont have to use it to compel manufacturers and can instead ask nicely. Currently all manufacturers are basically complying without compulsion.
  - tathougies 7y ago
    Yes they have the power to compel a sale but the government has to pay. And the defense production act is not relevant to governors. Governors have sovereign executive power in their state including ordinary police power. The federal government does not ordinarily have that power which is why they need an act of congress.
- MiroF 7y ago
  It should be seized and compensated with eminent domain. Buying implies right of refusal and no, I don't think that Target should be able to stockpile N95 masks in its warehouses.
ISL 7y ago
It is not clear from the post whether they were seized or purchased by the state. There are (comparatively) plenty of financial resources around, just not a lot of masks.
- bdavis__ 7y ago
  they were purchased. the government does not just take property. in the end it may be the GSA price, which may not be the same as target was expecting to retail it at.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    > the government does not just take property lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U...
    - ISL 7y ago
      Or, closer to the issue at hand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain I don't have time to look right now, but I suspect most states (and the feds) have the ability to repurpose private assets in emergencies, with some constraints.
      - davrosthedalek 7y ago
        That requires "just compensation".
erentz 7y ago
I really want to hear the back story on this. Who is the distributor? Why did they end up at a Target? I'm betting the distributor tried to sell them to hospitals but the hospitals said they weren't appropriate/certified for medical use so couldn't take them? Not much to go on from a tweet but definitely needs investigating.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  The respirators in question have exhalation valves[1], so they definitely wouldn't be normally certified for medical use. [1] https://twitter.com/anndornfeld/status/1241372544764006400/photo/1 https://twitter.com/anndornfeld/status/1241372544764006400/p...
  - oasisbob 7y ago
    That's a good point. Guessing the fix is to tape over the port?
  - kps 7y ago
    Looked this up… “Respirators with exhalation valves can be used in a healthcare setting when it is not important to maintain a sterile field (an example of an acceptable practice would be when taking the temperature or blood pressure of a patient). Respirators with exhalation valves should not be used in situations where a sterile field is required (e.g., during an invasive procedure in an operating or procedure room) because the exhalation valve allows unfiltered exhaled air to escape into the sterile field.” https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/topics/respirators/disp_part/respsource3healthcare.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/topics/respirators/disp_part...
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      Interesting. It still seems like these respirators would have been earmarked for industrial use, but I didn't realize they could normally be used in healthcare at all.
- porknubbins 7y ago
oasisbob 7y ago
Target donated them. Not seized, nor sold. https://twitter.com/Target/status/1241507826096377858?s=20 https://twitter.com/Target/status/1241507826096377858?s=20

CivBase 7y ago

> It is almost like authorities didn't want anyone to start asking why the public couldn't get masks, as they can in say Taiwan. It appeared to be very common for citizens to wear masks in eastern Asia long before this pandemic. I'm not the least bit surprised they were more prepared to scale up production.

jliptzin 7y ago

Yea this is really frustrating. I bought a box of 10 N-95s in January when I saw what was going on in China and figured they’d be good to have, since I have older people in my family who are in poor health (leukemia, diabetes, heart disease). Now since I’m shopping and cooking for them, I am trying really hard not to get sick so I wear a mask to the stores and I’m getting looks from people like I stole them from a hospital. How about we blame the government for not ramping up production of masks back in January when even I knew this was going to be a problem?

OJFord 7y ago
> Now since I’m shopping and cooking for them, I am trying really hard not to get sick so I wear a mask to the stores and I’m getting looks from people like I stole them from a hospital. I have an N99 (actually FFP3, a pretty much equivalent European standard I gather) from some DIY work a year or so ago; I haven't been out in some time, but when I did I didn't wear it for the same reason. It will be interesting to see what happens to production, and commercial & residential stockpiles when we do get back to something resembling normality. I suspect there'll be a marked increase in non-Asian* routine mask-wearers on public transport, for example. (* it was a lot more common among that group anyway, so I'm not so sure in my speculation that it would increase so much.)
- MiroF 7y ago
  This will probably hit us culturally the way SARS hit east Asia in the early aughts. The good news is that we likely won't be caught completely flat footed against a pandemic again.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    Unfortunately many authorities are trying to stamp out public mask culture in the west before it even has a chance to properly develop. I think this is penny wise, pound foolish. It's short term thinking that optimizes for the present at the expense of the future.

Jare 7y ago

- If you tell the public that masks are great protection, and the public can't find then to buy, that is a huge source of unrest. - The messaging (in Spain but looks similar everywhere) has been that you should wear one if you are sick or, more importantly here, if you are at risk. This is a clear indication that they do help protect against being infected. This should have prevented everyone from harassing anyone wearing one ("they must be a risk group"). The fact that people did that is indication that people are not acting responsibly. I personally hate being told something that is patently false, but I totally understand that, collectively, we need to be lied to for our own protection, because collectively we become a bunch of idiots.

MiroF 7y ago
> I personally hate being told something that is patently false, but I totally understand that, collectively, we need to be lied to for our own protection, because collectively we become a bunch of idiots. Yep, I understand this. I've also noticed recent emphasis on the danger of the virus to young people (like this somewhat misleading NYT article [1], although I just noticed that they recently updated it), I suspect because they want young people to stay home. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-people.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-young-...
- acqq 7y ago
  Young people aren't automatically immune: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226440/three-junior-doctors-aged-30-struck-down-by-coronavirus-in-the-same-hospital/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11226440/three-junior-doctors-... No sane medical person would connect three 30-years doctors to the breathing machines ("ventilators") unless they actually had to be connected to them: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/ventilators-do-work-does-feel-like-one/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/ventilators-... And the "invasive" ones (see the picture) are the last chance for people to survive, but it's best not to come that far: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-8131947/Engineering-giants-race-build-20-000-new-medical-ventilators.html https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-8131947/Eng... That's why it's in the interest of everybody for the hospitals to remain functional and that the current speed of growth gets at least significantly reduced. That's why "the curve" has to be "spread."

susanhi 7y ago

The government should have contracted mask manufacturers 2 months ago to ramp their mask production, both for medical staff and for the public. They still haven’t done this to date. Beyond frustrating.

hackermailman 7y ago
No government did this, even when months ago China was shutting down it's factories and locking down a hundred million people zero preparation was done by all of our politicians. My country ran out of masks two weeks ago and people are just wearing makeshift masks