15 ms·

Not so surprising. You have also the same outliers with Hong Kong and Taiwan. - In Japan, people naturally respect social distancing. Touching someone is consi

by adev_ 7y ago

Not so surprising. You have also the same outliers with Hong Kong and Taiwan. - In Japan, people naturally respect social distancing. Touching someone is considered rude, everyone bows instead of shaking hands and nobody kiss. - Almost everybody wear mask when they are sick to avoid contaminating others. They do that since way before Cornavirus and on voluntary based. - Washing hands is common, being clean (bath culture) is part of common minimal respect. - People listen and obey to their government. - Last but probably very relevant: they have a completely different place of the elders in society. In Japan, the elders often live alone, sustain their life by themselves: it's a matter of proud. Even contact with their own kids is often sparse. Meaning, probably also lower risk of infection.

xenospn 7y ago
Counter point: My Japanese friends have been and still are going out to bars every night like nothing happened.
- foota 7y ago
  Maybe this shows the relative importance of different measures? Not saying that we elsewhere should go out to bars, since we're thoroughly lacking in the other parts. Edit: downthread people suggest a lack of testing, probably a better explanation.
- luspr 7y ago
  Why shouldn't they? There are probably no cases in the community.
- kamikaz1k 7y ago
  I have heard the same from a Japanese friend, not in a major city either. Seems even families are going about normally with their children, to McDonald's and such.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    What they're not doing is sending their children to school. Maybe that intervention alone is enough to suppress it.
    - chrischen 7y ago
      I heard that because school is out the young people just went out instead.
- tagrun 7y ago
  The real difference lies in the responsible community surrounding you which doesn't behave like nothing happened.
paulddraper 7y ago
> Almost everybody wear mask when they are sick to avoid contaminating others. The U.S. response is absurd. I went grocery shopping the other day, and despite clear evidence of panic (empty shelves, hurried shoppers, long lines), but not a single person wore a mask. Somehow, everyone is too scared to go to work, but not scared enough to wear a mask. We're on course for the worst depression in history because we don't like masks?
- crazygringo 7y ago
  No, we're not wearing masks because we don't HAVE any. I live in Brooklyn and I'd love to wear a mask. I'd love to have been wearing a mask every day for the past two weeks. But where exactly do you suggest I find one since they're sold out literally everywhere, and we're also getting advice not to wear them so they can be saved for healthcare professionals! You ought to reexamine your assumptions. We love masks but don't have any. Sheesh.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
    Wrap a t-shirt around your face and use a clothespin to secure it. It's not perfect but from the best of my reading it's far better than nothing.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    I was referring to either storebought masks or homemade ones. Literally some paper towel, wire, and rubber bands [1]. If you're willing to break out a needle and thread you can make a durable cloth one. [2] [3] > we're also getting advice not to wear them so they can be saved for healthcare professionals! AFAIK, surgical-quality sterilizing masks are separate from what you'd probably find in the store; you're not pulling from the same stock. (Though I seem to recall some charity effort of people sewing masks for doctors, so IDK what the actual U.S. healthcare regulations are.) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNjpH5lBZ8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNjpH5lBZ8w (University of Hong Kong-Shenzhen Hospital) [2] https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/doctors-are-now-running-out-of-face-masks-heres-how-to-make-your-own/ https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/doctors-are-now-running-out-of... [3] https://www.deaconess.com/How-to-make-a-Face-Mask https://www.deaconess.com/How-to-make-a-Face-Mask EDIT: "Sheesh"
m3kw9 7y ago
For the elders point only if they have some disease that can impact the family. So it also makes sense their death rate is lower
product50 7y ago
Do you know these are the real reasons or are you just rehashing what you have read? This feels more like confirmation bias. Can't imagine the rest of first world countries are completely shut down and here Japan is just doing fine with 1000s of ppl picnicking etc. There has to be something else going on..
- pdr2020 7y ago
  That's.. actually a very salient point.
- adev_ 7y ago
  >Do you know these are the real reasons? I don't pretend to know, that's my personal thoughts, I think they are. I am rather often in Japan for family reasons. > Can't imagine the rest of first world countries are completely shut down and here Japan is just doing fine with 1000s of ppl picnicking etc. I personally think one of the main reason is currently the exposition (or non-exposition) of the elders. They account for over 95% of the victims. If for a reason the elders are more isolated / protected / healthy. It ends up impacting a lot how deadly the pandemia is.
  - adventured 7y ago
    > They [elders] account for over 95% of the victims. Half the most severe cases in France are under 60 years of age. It begs the question of why Japan is also not seeing anything like that. Deaths are certainly one thing to consider in terms of age, however if Japan had a mass spread of the virus I would expect to see a lot of ICU cases regardless. Even when countries aren't testing properly, the intensive care cases (or lack thereof) reveal what's going on eventually. I think it goes beyond the isolation of old people for Japan. It's similarly puzzling as the German case to death ratio, versus eg Spain (comparable case counts, 15 times the deaths). I've seen that one explained that older people in Germany are far less likely to live with their families vs Spain or Italy (so fewer of the most vulnerable are catching it in Germany). And yet, Germany also has three times the cases of Switzerland, with the same number of deaths. Something is very strange there. The low recovery figures out of Germany might imply they're not deep enough into the outbreak, time wise, to have the death rate spiking yet.
tooltalk 7y ago
a few random points to consider: - Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam all in much warmer climate. - hot spots in Italy and Japan are likewise in the northern region: Lombardy in Italy and Hokkaido in Japan. - wearing masks during a global pandemic isn't apparently as fashionable in Japan. - many Japanese elderly, or over 30K per year, die unnoticed in solitude. so it might take a while to catch up. But on the other hand: - In South Korea, most infections trace to a middle-aged lady "Super Ajumma" who is also a member secretive cult. Without the cult, the total infected with the virus in SK would be comparable to that of other Asian neighbors. So outside China, the spread of the virus doesn't seem so bad in Asia overall.
- rsynnott 7y ago
  And even _in_ China, cases per capita are not that high (lower than most of Western Europe). In _Wuhan_ is another matter, of course.
  - _-david-_ 7y ago
    Assuming China is not lying which is definitely up for debate.
- Jommi 7y ago
  Could you link some sources to your claims?
  - SubiculumCode 7y ago
    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3550308 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3550308 For some informed ideas about temperatures/climate and coronaviruses
  - SubiculumCode 7y ago
    Specifically, https://i.imgur.com/ekiFd9S.png https://i.imgur.com/ekiFd9S.png You will see that the largest outbreaks occur at the same temperature gradients
maps7 7y ago
- Almost everybody wear mask when they are sick to avoid contaminating others. They do that since way before Cornavirus and on voluntary based. We're told that masks do not work
- lippel82 7y ago
  Nobody should be saying that masks do not work. When worn by a sick person, they very effectively prevent droplets from leaving the mouth. They also help not breathing in contamination, as airborne viruses are usually contained in droplets. But there are other ways to get infected, so they don't help as much as people think they do.
  - georgemcbay 7y ago
    There was definitely a lot of press early on basically saying masks (and latex gloves) don't work. Generally they were clickbaity articles with headlines stating exactly that, but content stating the more reasonable idea that masks/gloves don't work (and may in fact cause more problems than they solve) if you don't use them correctly. eg. someone buys a mask, keeps using the same mask day after day while handling the mask in way that may make the inside of it a contaminated surface, etc.
- standardUser 7y ago
  This should not be downvoted. There have been plenty of articles downplaying the importance of masks.
  - robjan 7y ago
    There are plenty of articles but that doesn't mean they are correct. Here is a peer reviewed study demonstrating that masks are helpful. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211335516301553?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221133551... Masks provide two benefits. They protect other people from you when your are ill but currently asymptomatic and they protect you from "splashes" caused by people coughing and sneezing without covering their mouth.
chrischen 7y ago
- People do shake hands in Japan. In Western countries hand-shaking is limited almost exclusively to business (I’d imagine the same goes for Japan). - Washing hands is common, but not necessarily any more of a practice than in Western countries. But in many places like in subway station bathrooms they do not have soap. Some of the cultural things like mask wearing (which was born out of the density and close proximity in public transit) are shared between Hong Kong, Taiwan, and other Asian countries, but a lot of things are also different culturally so I don’t think you can easily attribute these reasons as “not surprising” with regards to coronavirus growth.
- luhn 7y ago
  > In Western countries hand-shaking is limited almost exclusively to business I can't speak for all Western countries, but in the US I shake hands with every new person I meet, whether in a professional or social settings. I'll also shake hands as a greeting for acquaintances I'm not close with. (As opposed to a hug for close acquaintances.)
  - guscost 7y ago
    Which city? This is not at all ordinary in my experience (at least in social settings - it’s normal in business settings).
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Parent was probably referring to outgoing people who don't spend most of their time in the Internet.
      - guscost 7y ago
        It’s hugs or nothing, and hugs are only for family or good friends you haven’t seen in a while.
    - fsagx 7y ago
      In my experience, the handshake-as-greeting between men in social situations is common in the Midwest US, at least.
rendaw 7y ago
I don't think this is the answer. - There's no more social distancing in Japan than in the US. Nobody goes around hugging, shaking hands with, or kissing strangers in the US. Trains are still packed. - Most public bathrooms don't have soap and I've rarely seen people wash their hands after using the bathroom anyways. - People don't listen to the government - most people I know are arranging or participating in flower viewing parties despite the government's requests not to. - Lots of the elderly in the US also live alone. I doubt the numbers are significantly different enough to affect transmission either. TBH I had a hard time finding comparable statistics (re: single housing seniors and washing hands) though, do you have sources for any of those claims?
- protomyth 7y ago
  Nobody goes around hugging, shaking hands with, or kissing strangers in the US. Depends on the part of the US. Huggers actually exist.
- SiVal 7y ago
  I agree with every point you're making, so I wonder if it isn't just one big factor: lots of people routinely put on masks at the first suspicion that they might be sick, even before they're sure. They just go ahead and do it just in case. And they do this all the time, so there's no delay due to self-consciousness or unfamiliarity or having to go buy a mask. It's just ordinary life. Like taking shoes off in the house and making high school a college-admissions death march, maybe this widespread East Asian custom will spread in the West as well.
  - objektif 7y ago
    But we are being told that masks don't hep with prevention. Do you mean that sick ones do that not to spread?
    - eanzenberg 7y ago
      Masks absolutely help. You are told otherwise for a whole other reason: to stop hoarding masks.
KingFelix 7y ago
and Bidets! TOTO knows whats up!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
greedo 7y ago
Taiwan had a much more comprehensive and thorough strategy, considering their threat was much higher due to close economic ties and travel with China. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762689 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762689
- summerlight 7y ago
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49178314 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49178314 I don't think the model in the paper accurately reflects the recent cross-strait relations. China already closed the border to Taiwan several months ago to retaliate Taiwan's arm purchases from the U.S, which brought nearly two months to handles the situation for Tsai. Though, Taiwan's response still has been much better than any other Western countries which already had three months to prepare against the situation while did absolutely nothing for the period.
discordance 7y ago
Have you caught the JR Yamanote in peak hour? I’ve never been touched by so many strangers so much in life. Workers in japan also rarely take sick leave, even at this time.
- flocial 7y ago
  Even in mildly packed trains people are basically breathing all over each other.
ganeshkrishnan 7y ago
>In Japan, the elders often live alone, sustain their life by themselves: it's a matter of proud. Even contact with their own kids is often sparse I doubt this is true. In most Asian cultures including Japan the children live very close to parents and take care of them all their life.
GuB-42 7y ago
With Japan, things are not always as they appear. There appearances are everything. They will do everything to look clean, but it doesn't mean they really are. Even the masks are a bit of a show. There is, of course, truth behind it. They don't fake when they wash themselves and clean things up, and the masks really protect others, but don't assume they all behave the same way when no one is watching. And while they tend to touch each other less then westerners they are also packed, and often go to public places in large groups. For the elders, I don't know. The traditional way is to have everyone in the same house: children, parents, and grandparents. But the modern way leaves the elders by themselves. The traditional way would leave them very exposed, but I don't know how many are living like that. It is also more common for children to sleep with their parents. And while the Japanese are generally more obedient and disciplined than we are, I am not entirely convinced about their faith in the government. All and all, I think your points are mostly valid. But for me, it isn't as clear cut.
- darkteflon 7y ago
  Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, anyone who lives here in Japan can confirm that these points are absolutely correct.
- unrealhoang 7y ago
  If they only behave the same way when someone is watching then it works. Same with obedient in and faith to government, the end result is they do what the government tell them to do. Pretentious or genuine does not matter.
lonelappde 7y ago
Interesting. One of the themes of the classic Japanese film Ponyo is how separating elders from the rest of society is bad for both. And Japan has strong laws requiring filial care for elders. Anyway, sequestering elders isn't uniquely Japanese. USA is famous for that.
autokad 7y ago
I feel like we (the US) do a lot better just by advising the elderly to stay home, give them resources (free delivery, services brought to their home, etc) much more effectively then basically throwing our economy in a 40% GDP drop shitter.
- temac 7y ago
  Well, in France 50% of ICU patients are under 60.
ashleysmithgpu 7y ago
I live in Japan. "Washing hands is common" this is incorrect. Most bathrooms do not have soap and many people do not wash their hands. "People listen and obey to their government" This is also not true, many hanami events have been cancelled but there were actually more people out viewing yesterday than last year. I am relatively sure the turnout will be higher than last year to many of the parks.
- lovemenot 7y ago
  >> there were actually more people out viewing yesterday than last year. Incorrect from my close observation of three Tokyo hanami locations with which I have become familiar over a long period. The density of picnickers has been lower than I have observed over previous years. Furthermore, the respect for mutual distance through eye contact has been new and noticeable.
ekianjo 7y ago
Man sorry to say but all your comments are completely wrong. - Social distancing does not exist in large cities like osaka and Tokyo. And that's a lot of people. Try to take a train at any time of the days and see if you can keep more than 10cm apart from anyone else. Good luck. - Masks: there's no masks sold anywhere as we speak. And that's been a month already. - Washing hands: more common than in other countries maybe, but I still see lots of guys who dont even rinse their hands after taking a piss. Both old and young. - Listen to government: laughable claim. The government has been asking for social distancing and still in my neighborhood I can see parents and kids going together to play in parks with no care whatsoever. - Elders in society? Ever heard of filled up nursing homes? yes, that is a thing in Japan.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  > I can see parents and kids going together to play in parks with no care whatsoever. I don’t know if they have no care. They’ve just weighed the horror of staying in their home with a kid for days on end against their chances of getting infected and chosen what makes sense for them.
  - dunefox 7y ago
    So they decide to risk their own and their childrens lives as well as countless others just because they cannot stand their children for more than a couple of hours. Very responsible.
    - Aeolun 7y ago
      You risk you and your children’s lives any time you get in a car. That’s not irresponsible, that’s life.
- sunstone 7y ago
  So that leaves either green tea or nato as the magic antidote.
summerlight 7y ago
No. They simply don't test enough and they have good incentives not to do so. And please don't inconsiderately project your stereotypical image of Japanese, or Asian, on this matter unless you had spent a good amount of time (>20 yrs) in a relevant community.
- unishark 7y ago
  The article gave several problems with that theory. If Japan's curve was where it is "supposed to be" weeks ago when people were making the same argument you are now, where are the piles of bodies and overwhelmed ICU's? They may eventually get there of course, since anything besides lockdown seems very risky these days. But the passage of time has proved your argument wrong time and again. More consideration is needed to understand what has happened there. Though I certainly think they should just ramp up the testing and make it easier.
hatenberg 7y ago
If you've ever been in a mens bathroom in Japan ... washing hands doesnt happen, let alone with soap
- Aeolun 7y ago
  It’s just a little token splash of water.
flocial 7y ago
"- Last but probably very relevant: they have a completely different place of the elders in society. In Japan, the elders often live alone, sustain their life by themselves: it's a matter of proud. Even contact with their own kids is often sparse. Meaning, probably also lower risk of infection. " The elderly in Japan are extremely active and are very well socialized with other elderly thanks to public transportation and compact cities. They are very independent and mobile. Considering that Japan never took active quarantine measures on a nationwide scale, it's honestly a mystery why Japan is an outlier.
- adev_ 7y ago
  > They are very independent and mobile. Considering that Japan never took active quarantine . And that makes the situation better, especially if you compare to country like Italy where a huge majority of kids still live with their parents and grand parents, potentially can infecting them. https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/6413.jpeg https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/6413.jpeg If social distance and mask works in public space, it does not at home.

by adev_ 7y ago

xenospn 7y ago

Counter point: My Japanese friends have been and still are going out to bars every night like nothing happened.

foota 7y ago
Maybe this shows the relative importance of different measures? Not saying that we elsewhere should go out to bars, since we're thoroughly lacking in the other parts. Edit: downthread people suggest a lack of testing, probably a better explanation.
luspr 7y ago
Why shouldn't they? There are probably no cases in the community.
kamikaz1k 7y ago
I have heard the same from a Japanese friend, not in a major city either. Seems even families are going about normally with their children, to McDonald's and such.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  What they're not doing is sending their children to school. Maybe that intervention alone is enough to suppress it.
  - chrischen 7y ago
    I heard that because school is out the young people just went out instead.
tagrun 7y ago
The real difference lies in the responsible community surrounding you which doesn't behave like nothing happened.

paulddraper 7y ago

> Almost everybody wear mask when they are sick to avoid contaminating others. The U.S. response is absurd. I went grocery shopping the other day, and despite clear evidence of panic (empty shelves, hurried shoppers, long lines), but not a single person wore a mask. Somehow, everyone is too scared to go to work, but not scared enough to wear a mask. We're on course for the worst depression in history because we don't like masks?

crazygringo 7y ago
No, we're not wearing masks because we don't HAVE any. I live in Brooklyn and I'd love to wear a mask. I'd love to have been wearing a mask every day for the past two weeks. But where exactly do you suggest I find one since they're sold out literally everywhere, and we're also getting advice not to wear them so they can be saved for healthcare professionals! You ought to reexamine your assumptions. We love masks but don't have any. Sheesh.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  Wrap a t-shirt around your face and use a clothespin to secure it. It's not perfect but from the best of my reading it's far better than nothing.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  I was referring to either storebought masks or homemade ones. Literally some paper towel, wire, and rubber bands [1]. If you're willing to break out a needle and thread you can make a durable cloth one. [2] [3] > we're also getting advice not to wear them so they can be saved for healthcare professionals! AFAIK, surgical-quality sterilizing masks are separate from what you'd probably find in the store; you're not pulling from the same stock. (Though I seem to recall some charity effort of people sewing masks for doctors, so IDK what the actual U.S. healthcare regulations are.) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNjpH5lBZ8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNjpH5lBZ8w (University of Hong Kong-Shenzhen Hospital) [2] https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/doctors-are-now-running-out-of-face-masks-heres-how-to-make-your-own/ https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/doctors-are-now-running-out-of... [3] https://www.deaconess.com/How-to-make-a-Face-Mask https://www.deaconess.com/How-to-make-a-Face-Mask EDIT: "Sheesh"

m3kw9 7y ago

For the elders point only if they have some disease that can impact the family. So it also makes sense their death rate is lower

product50 7y ago

Do you know these are the real reasons or are you just rehashing what you have read? This feels more like confirmation bias. Can't imagine the rest of first world countries are completely shut down and here Japan is just doing fine with 1000s of ppl picnicking etc. There has to be something else going on..

pdr2020 7y ago
That's.. actually a very salient point.
adev_ 7y ago
>Do you know these are the real reasons? I don't pretend to know, that's my personal thoughts, I think they are. I am rather often in Japan for family reasons. > Can't imagine the rest of first world countries are completely shut down and here Japan is just doing fine with 1000s of ppl picnicking etc. I personally think one of the main reason is currently the exposition (or non-exposition) of the elders. They account for over 95% of the victims. If for a reason the elders are more isolated / protected / healthy. It ends up impacting a lot how deadly the pandemia is.
- adventured 7y ago
  > They [elders] account for over 95% of the victims. Half the most severe cases in France are under 60 years of age. It begs the question of why Japan is also not seeing anything like that. Deaths are certainly one thing to consider in terms of age, however if Japan had a mass spread of the virus I would expect to see a lot of ICU cases regardless. Even when countries aren't testing properly, the intensive care cases (or lack thereof) reveal what's going on eventually. I think it goes beyond the isolation of old people for Japan. It's similarly puzzling as the German case to death ratio, versus eg Spain (comparable case counts, 15 times the deaths). I've seen that one explained that older people in Germany are far less likely to live with their families vs Spain or Italy (so fewer of the most vulnerable are catching it in Germany). And yet, Germany also has three times the cases of Switzerland, with the same number of deaths. Something is very strange there. The low recovery figures out of Germany might imply they're not deep enough into the outbreak, time wise, to have the death rate spiking yet.

tooltalk 7y ago

a few random points to consider: - Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam all in much warmer climate. - hot spots in Italy and Japan are likewise in the northern region: Lombardy in Italy and Hokkaido in Japan. - wearing masks during a global pandemic isn't apparently as fashionable in Japan. - many Japanese elderly, or over 30K per year, die unnoticed in solitude. so it might take a while to catch up. But on the other hand: - In South Korea, most infections trace to a middle-aged lady "Super Ajumma" who is also a member secretive cult. Without the cult, the total infected with the virus in SK would be comparable to that of other Asian neighbors. So outside China, the spread of the virus doesn't seem so bad in Asia overall.

rsynnott 7y ago
And even _in_ China, cases per capita are not that high (lower than most of Western Europe). In _Wuhan_ is another matter, of course.
- _-david-_ 7y ago
  Assuming China is not lying which is definitely up for debate.
Jommi 7y ago
Could you link some sources to your claims?
- SubiculumCode 7y ago
  https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3550308 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3550308 For some informed ideas about temperatures/climate and coronaviruses
- SubiculumCode 7y ago
  Specifically, https://i.imgur.com/ekiFd9S.png https://i.imgur.com/ekiFd9S.png You will see that the largest outbreaks occur at the same temperature gradients

maps7 7y ago

- Almost everybody wear mask when they are sick to avoid contaminating others. They do that since way before Cornavirus and on voluntary based. We're told that masks do not work

lippel82 7y ago
Nobody should be saying that masks do not work. When worn by a sick person, they very effectively prevent droplets from leaving the mouth. They also help not breathing in contamination, as airborne viruses are usually contained in droplets. But there are other ways to get infected, so they don't help as much as people think they do.
- georgemcbay 7y ago
  There was definitely a lot of press early on basically saying masks (and latex gloves) don't work. Generally they were clickbaity articles with headlines stating exactly that, but content stating the more reasonable idea that masks/gloves don't work (and may in fact cause more problems than they solve) if you don't use them correctly. eg. someone buys a mask, keeps using the same mask day after day while handling the mask in way that may make the inside of it a contaminated surface, etc.
standardUser 7y ago
This should not be downvoted. There have been plenty of articles downplaying the importance of masks.
- robjan 7y ago
  There are plenty of articles but that doesn't mean they are correct. Here is a peer reviewed study demonstrating that masks are helpful. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211335516301553?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221133551... Masks provide two benefits. They protect other people from you when your are ill but currently asymptomatic and they protect you from "splashes" caused by people coughing and sneezing without covering their mouth.

chrischen 7y ago

- People do shake hands in Japan. In Western countries hand-shaking is limited almost exclusively to business (I’d imagine the same goes for Japan). - Washing hands is common, but not necessarily any more of a practice than in Western countries. But in many places like in subway station bathrooms they do not have soap. Some of the cultural things like mask wearing (which was born out of the density and close proximity in public transit) are shared between Hong Kong, Taiwan, and other Asian countries, but a lot of things are also different culturally so I don’t think you can easily attribute these reasons as “not surprising” with regards to coronavirus growth.

luhn 7y ago
> In Western countries hand-shaking is limited almost exclusively to business I can't speak for all Western countries, but in the US I shake hands with every new person I meet, whether in a professional or social settings. I'll also shake hands as a greeting for acquaintances I'm not close with. (As opposed to a hug for close acquaintances.)
- guscost 7y ago
  Which city? This is not at all ordinary in my experience (at least in social settings - it’s normal in business settings).
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Parent was probably referring to outgoing people who don't spend most of their time in the Internet.
    - guscost 7y ago
      It’s hugs or nothing, and hugs are only for family or good friends you haven’t seen in a while.
  - fsagx 7y ago
    In my experience, the handshake-as-greeting between men in social situations is common in the Midwest US, at least.

rendaw 7y ago

I don't think this is the answer. - There's no more social distancing in Japan than in the US. Nobody goes around hugging, shaking hands with, or kissing strangers in the US. Trains are still packed. - Most public bathrooms don't have soap and I've rarely seen people wash their hands after using the bathroom anyways. - People don't listen to the government - most people I know are arranging or participating in flower viewing parties despite the government's requests not to. - Lots of the elderly in the US also live alone. I doubt the numbers are significantly different enough to affect transmission either. TBH I had a hard time finding comparable statistics (re: single housing seniors and washing hands) though, do you have sources for any of those claims?

protomyth 7y ago
Nobody goes around hugging, shaking hands with, or kissing strangers in the US. Depends on the part of the US. Huggers actually exist.
SiVal 7y ago
I agree with every point you're making, so I wonder if it isn't just one big factor: lots of people routinely put on masks at the first suspicion that they might be sick, even before they're sure. They just go ahead and do it just in case. And they do this all the time, so there's no delay due to self-consciousness or unfamiliarity or having to go buy a mask. It's just ordinary life. Like taking shoes off in the house and making high school a college-admissions death march, maybe this widespread East Asian custom will spread in the West as well.
- objektif 7y ago
  But we are being told that masks don't hep with prevention. Do you mean that sick ones do that not to spread?
  - eanzenberg 7y ago
    Masks absolutely help. You are told otherwise for a whole other reason: to stop hoarding masks.

KingFelix 7y ago

and Bidets! TOTO knows whats up!

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

greedo 7y ago

Taiwan had a much more comprehensive and thorough strategy, considering their threat was much higher due to close economic ties and travel with China. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762689 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762689

summerlight 7y ago
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49178314 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49178314 I don't think the model in the paper accurately reflects the recent cross-strait relations. China already closed the border to Taiwan several months ago to retaliate Taiwan's arm purchases from the U.S, which brought nearly two months to handles the situation for Tsai. Though, Taiwan's response still has been much better than any other Western countries which already had three months to prepare against the situation while did absolutely nothing for the period.

discordance 7y ago

Have you caught the JR Yamanote in peak hour? I’ve never been touched by so many strangers so much in life. Workers in japan also rarely take sick leave, even at this time.

flocial 7y ago
Even in mildly packed trains people are basically breathing all over each other.

ganeshkrishnan 7y ago

>In Japan, the elders often live alone, sustain their life by themselves: it's a matter of proud. Even contact with their own kids is often sparse I doubt this is true. In most Asian cultures including Japan the children live very close to parents and take care of them all their life.

GuB-42 7y ago

With Japan, things are not always as they appear. There appearances are everything. They will do everything to look clean, but it doesn't mean they really are. Even the masks are a bit of a show. There is, of course, truth behind it. They don't fake when they wash themselves and clean things up, and the masks really protect others, but don't assume they all behave the same way when no one is watching. And while they tend to touch each other less then westerners they are also packed, and often go to public places in large groups. For the elders, I don't know. The traditional way is to have everyone in the same house: children, parents, and grandparents. But the modern way leaves the elders by themselves. The traditional way would leave them very exposed, but I don't know how many are living like that. It is also more common for children to sleep with their parents. And while the Japanese are generally more obedient and disciplined than we are, I am not entirely convinced about their faith in the government. All and all, I think your points are mostly valid. But for me, it isn't as clear cut.

darkteflon 7y ago
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, anyone who lives here in Japan can confirm that these points are absolutely correct.
unrealhoang 7y ago
If they only behave the same way when someone is watching then it works. Same with obedient in and faith to government, the end result is they do what the government tell them to do. Pretentious or genuine does not matter.

lonelappde 7y ago

Interesting. One of the themes of the classic Japanese film Ponyo is how separating elders from the rest of society is bad for both. And Japan has strong laws requiring filial care for elders. Anyway, sequestering elders isn't uniquely Japanese. USA is famous for that.

autokad 7y ago

I feel like we (the US) do a lot better just by advising the elderly to stay home, give them resources (free delivery, services brought to their home, etc) much more effectively then basically throwing our economy in a 40% GDP drop shitter.

temac 7y ago
Well, in France 50% of ICU patients are under 60.

ashleysmithgpu 7y ago

I live in Japan. "Washing hands is common" this is incorrect. Most bathrooms do not have soap and many people do not wash their hands. "People listen and obey to their government" This is also not true, many hanami events have been cancelled but there were actually more people out viewing yesterday than last year. I am relatively sure the turnout will be higher than last year to many of the parks.

lovemenot 7y ago
>> there were actually more people out viewing yesterday than last year. Incorrect from my close observation of three Tokyo hanami locations with which I have become familiar over a long period. The density of picnickers has been lower than I have observed over previous years. Furthermore, the respect for mutual distance through eye contact has been new and noticeable.

ekianjo 7y ago

Man sorry to say but all your comments are completely wrong. - Social distancing does not exist in large cities like osaka and Tokyo. And that's a lot of people. Try to take a train at any time of the days and see if you can keep more than 10cm apart from anyone else. Good luck. - Masks: there's no masks sold anywhere as we speak. And that's been a month already. - Washing hands: more common than in other countries maybe, but I still see lots of guys who dont even rinse their hands after taking a piss. Both old and young. - Listen to government: laughable claim. The government has been asking for social distancing and still in my neighborhood I can see parents and kids going together to play in parks with no care whatsoever. - Elders in society? Ever heard of filled up nursing homes? yes, that is a thing in Japan.

Aeolun 7y ago
> I can see parents and kids going together to play in parks with no care whatsoever. I don’t know if they have no care. They’ve just weighed the horror of staying in their home with a kid for days on end against their chances of getting infected and chosen what makes sense for them.
- dunefox 7y ago
  So they decide to risk their own and their childrens lives as well as countless others just because they cannot stand their children for more than a couple of hours. Very responsible.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    You risk you and your children’s lives any time you get in a car. That’s not irresponsible, that’s life.
sunstone 7y ago
So that leaves either green tea or nato as the magic antidote.

summerlight 7y ago

No. They simply don't test enough and they have good incentives not to do so. And please don't inconsiderately project your stereotypical image of Japanese, or Asian, on this matter unless you had spent a good amount of time (>20 yrs) in a relevant community.

unishark 7y ago
The article gave several problems with that theory. If Japan's curve was where it is "supposed to be" weeks ago when people were making the same argument you are now, where are the piles of bodies and overwhelmed ICU's? They may eventually get there of course, since anything besides lockdown seems very risky these days. But the passage of time has proved your argument wrong time and again. More consideration is needed to understand what has happened there. Though I certainly think they should just ramp up the testing and make it easier.

hatenberg 7y ago

If you've ever been in a mens bathroom in Japan ... washing hands doesnt happen, let alone with soap

Aeolun 7y ago
It’s just a little token splash of water.

flocial 7y ago

"- Last but probably very relevant: they have a completely different place of the elders in society. In Japan, the elders often live alone, sustain their life by themselves: it's a matter of proud. Even contact with their own kids is often sparse. Meaning, probably also lower risk of infection. " The elderly in Japan are extremely active and are very well socialized with other elderly thanks to public transportation and compact cities. They are very independent and mobile. Considering that Japan never took active quarantine measures on a nationwide scale, it's honestly a mystery why Japan is an outlier.

adev_ 7y ago
> They are very independent and mobile. Considering that Japan never took active quarantine . And that makes the situation better, especially if you compare to country like Italy where a huge majority of kids still live with their parents and grand parents, potentially can infecting them. https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/6413.jpeg https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/6413.jpeg If social distance and mask works in public space, it does not at home.