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China Bans Americans Working for WSJ, NYT, WaPo
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoNote that they are also banning from working in Hong Kong and Macau.
- api 7y agoI wonder if they're under-reporting their COVID-19 numbers to win propaganda points. Naaaaah... impossible.
- makomk 7y agoI definitely suspect that might be the case. In order to push back against local public anger, the Chinese government have invested a lot of credibility in the idea that their handling of Covid-19 is a shining model for the rest of the world, but it just doesn't feel like it should work. Exponential growth being what it is, if it failed it'd be possible to remain in denial for a while and cover it up for a while longer but sooner or later...
- onetimemanytime 7y agoIt's war (of words) The Chinese Virus vs US bioweapon. Plus China might be hiding something
- Gibbon1 7y agoAlso those newspapers were publishing propaganda pieces accusing the Chinese Government of acting in bad faith during the epidemic. That doesn't go over well at all.
- mjevans 7y agoPaywall
- jwilk 7y agohttps://archive.vn/N2AqW https://archive.vn/N2AqW
- dmix 7y agoAw, WSJ videos covering China were some of my favourite content. China is really lashing out. Nothing is surprising since they banned Zedd from China simply for liking a South Park tweet, he's a very popular (and harmlessly generic) pop musician: https://twitter.com/Zedd/status/1182376966495838208 https://twitter.com/Zedd/status/1182376966495838208
- Leary 7y agoAmerica will surely retaliate. Here's a timeline for those who haven't followed this: Feb 3rd: WSJ publishes opinion piece titled "China Is the Real Sick Man of Asia" Feb 19th: China expels three China-based WSJ reporters March 2nd: America limits journalists from Chinese state media from 160 to 100
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- reaperducer 7y agoAmerica will surely retaliate. No. There are thousands and thousands of journalists working for foreign governments, friendly and hostile, in the United States. Some hostile foreign governments even operate domestic broadcasting operations in America. (China, Russia, etc...) The worst thing that's ever been done in recent memory is requiring those operations to register as foreign agents. And I think at one time there was a move to limit the Kremlin's cadre to something like 1,000 people. But I might be remembering that part wrong.
- Leary 7y agoMike Pompeo on March 2nd: “Our goal is reciprocity. As we have done in other areas of the U.S.-China relationship, we seek to establish a long-overdue level playing field,” Pompeo said in a statement to CNBC about the cap. “It is our hope that this action will spur Beijing to adopt a more fair and reciprocal approach to U.S. and other foreign press in China.” Reciprocity = you limit our journalist we'll limit yours. I expect a ban on those 100 remaining Chinese state media journalists.
- ilikehurdles 7y agoWhat a ridiculously stupid goal. If we had a goal of reciprocity with every authoritarian dictatorship we'd end up enacting their policies until our government looks no different from our adversaries'.
- 7y ago
- reaperducer 7y agoFor thousands of years, tyrants and small-minded people have always tried to shoot the messenger. It seldom stops the message.
- MegaButts 7y agoSupposedly, but we'd never actually know about the times where the message died with the messenger, would we? For all we know it's incredibly effective. I don't believe this is true, I'm just pointing out we'd have no way of knowing.
- reaperducer 7y agoWe do. There is seldom a single messenger.
- MegaButts 7y agoYou are referring to the examples where we found out about the message. But it's impossible to know about the times we did not find out about the message, because we never found out! This could be because it never happened, or because the message was contained. It's theoretically impossible to know. This is just a fun thought exercise though, not trying to have a real argument.
- true_religion 7y agoThere are plenty of cases where the message was contained in the short term, but became public later on to no great consequence. For example the president maneuvering the US into WW2 would have been a scandal at the time, but after the war WW2 was seen as inevitable so the now pubic records didn’t cause an uproar. Or the MKUltra declassified documents. If it has come out at the time, it would have been scandalous, but 30 years later it’s seen as not worth pursuing criminal charges, or even stopping similar things from being done in the future.
- im3w1l 7y agoI think there are two different kinds of messages to consider here. The first is an ideology. For an ideology to even be a threat there has to be a lot of believers in the first place. The second is a secret. Killing someone before they can spill the beans is viable.
- koboll 7y agoI truly don't understand why "expel Chinese journalists" was even considered as a reasonable course of action by the US. It may not explicitly violate the letter of the 1st Amendment, but it certainly violates its spirit, not to mention invites reciprocal action like this that only deepens the fog of war over our most dangerous adversary power. There are many, many legitimate ways to punish foreign governments, but the expulsion of reporters should never be among them, unless we are at war with that government. "But China did it first!" Well, then we should highlight how outrageous and unacceptable that behavior is, and sanction them some other way. Not reciprocate.
- spectramax 7y agoYou’re diverting the conversation from “China has expelled legitimate reputable journalists from many Pulitzer Prize winning newspapers” to “Hey, look at US, who expelled CCP propagandists”. I find this infuriating. Edit: folks are again responding with “its not US gov business” which I agree. But we should have that as a separate conversation. We criticize the US gov all the time - just go to NYTimes front page. But criticism of CCP is being suppressed and no one seems to care. This isn’t about US/China, but it’s about suppression of truth and freedom of press. I’m just disappointed in HN, this is always the case. Finger pointing, whataboutism, diversion and digression of the real issue. Edit2: China’s press score is at a whopping 177th place: https://rsf.org/en/china https://rsf.org/en/china @dang - can you please look at the downvotes in this thread? This is unreal.
- koboll 7y agoA liberal democracy's federal government should not be in the business of deciding which journalists are "propagandists".
- spectramax 7y agoTotally agree.
- ericmay 7y agoKind of depends doesn't it? If those propagandists are, say, promoting the disuse of vaccines or that drinking garlic water is a cure for COVID-19 to intentionally harm Americans or the government? What if "journalists" convince a country to do something that's objectively bad for the country? Maybe, idk, Putin shills helping to convince people to vote for Brexit? I guess that's ok? I don't think it's that clear for a line.
- xster 7y agoI'm surprised they didn't start with outlawing receiving money from NED or subsidiaries first.
- gwd 7y agoCan't read the article behind a paywall, but this is China's side of the story: https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_665399/s2510_665401/t1757162.shtml https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_665399/s2510_665401/t1... Seems this is part of an ongoing diplomatic spat. EDIT: FYI, couldn't read the article due to a paywall, did a search, found out some about the history. Thought this added information to the conversation. Yes, this is clearly propaganda, but I still thought it was interesting. You're all of age, you can read this sort of propaganda without being harmed.
- crypt1d 7y agoIts curious that you are being down-voted. Almost as if the folks here are not interested in hearing the other side of this story.
- strictnein 7y agoOne "side" of the story: literal government propaganda Other "side" of the story: journalists from world-renowned publications expelled Totally see your point...
- kuraudoOishii 7y agoI think you made an error in saying those Chinese journalists are world-renowned. Certainly not peddling as many bald-faced lies as US journalism, but they certainly also qualify as propaganda?
- mengibar10 7y agoYou should start learning how the world works. First step get out of your cocoon.
- coliveira 7y agoMany people have been conditioned by politics to look at the other side of the story as "propaganda", as if a lot of what we read in major newspapers isn't also full of propaganda...
- 7y ago
- friedman23 7y agoWhat a coincidence, I'm subscribed to most of those!
- sub7 7y agoThe US and China are at war. The last Cold War kind of gave us the internet so hopefully we fund some big ambitious tech this time too.
- wffurr 7y agoUbiquitous surveillance and facial recognition seems to be the tech innovation from this one. I wouldn't be so hopeful about "ambitious big tech".
- FpUser 7y agoNice war, given the amount of trade between the countries. Sure they call each other names but when it comes to money the rest be damned.
- downerending 7y agoGiven their threat this week to withhold ingredients for pharmaceuticals, we should be seriously reconsidering the amount and kind of trade we do with China. We'll see whether they continue in this, but it has a whiff of Faustian bargain at the moment.
- canada_dry 7y ago> Given their threat this week to withhold ingredients for pharmaceuticals Source?
- downerending 7y agoMost mainstream sources buried this, but search for "mighty sea of coronavirus".
- FpUser 7y agoWell then cut the trade and declare them official enemy. For now big corporations from either country laugh all their way to their banks while we conduct holy battles on HN.
- coliveira 7y agoThis is an information war. The US is also banning Chinese journalists. In the end, everybody is losing and I don't see anyone here doing the right thing.
- markmiro 7y agoThis signals to me that the outlets are good sources of information
- ta999999171 7y agoOn China.
- cepp 7y agoIn reality, it's just that these outlets are the only ones with large bureau operations. There are plenty of other independent reporters and smaller sources with much better coverage.
- predictmktegirl 7y agoIt's difficult to have compassion and empathy without discussion. These sorts of maneuvers tend to have horrifying butterfly effects.
- planetzero 7y agoThe Chinese government caused many virus-related deaths around the world. They covered it up for months and silenced any medical professionals that attempted to warn the rest of the world. The press has also recently tried to float the conspiracy theory that the US government planted the virus in Wuhan back in October. Chinese government officials should be put on trial for mass murder. I'm glad he's expelling the Chinese press. They are basically just arms of the government and most likely there to exfiltrate information.
- xenocyon 7y agoYour first paragraph makes clear why freedom of the press is necessary. Expelling journalists is a strike against freedom of the press.
- planetzero 7y ago"Your first paragraph makes clear why freedom of the press is necessary." All press isn't being banned, just specific press from China. Our Freedom of the press is still in place. I also don't really consider the press from China as the press when everything is filtered through the Chinese government.
- FooBarWidget 7y ago> Your first paragraph makes clear why freedom of the press is necessary. Like I said in my other post: the claim that they "covered it up for months" is nonsense. I get that freedom of speech is an important value to you, but this is a strawman argument to try to support the ideal of freedom of speech, while completely ignoring the reality. The US has had 2 months to prepare for COVID-19, and what happened in the US even though you had freedom of speech? Cover-ups, or -- a more charitable interpretation -- incompetence in information sharing. Free speech is an important value. But don't pretend like it's some kind of panacea. You will do the ideal of freedom of speech much more justice by recognizing its limitations, because only then can you truly leverage its benefits while mitigating its weaknesses. Anything else is like driving with your eyes closed and thinking "I'll be fine".
- resters 7y agoDon't forget that the US Government has sought to pursue charges against journalists under the espionage act for reporting on government misconduct, and that America's great firewall (Facebook) started suppressing RT after the 2016 election. Also, Al Jazeera is not carried by most US cable providers.
- vorpalhex 7y agoFacebook is hardly a firewall and certainly not aligned to the government much less the current administration. RT is a full on naked propaganda machine and troll farm. Al Jazeera is not carried by most US providers because they ran out of cash and mostly went online.
- resters 7y agoIf you think about your reply, you'll realize it is nothing more than name calling and does not refute the data points that I mentioned.
- mengibar10 7y agoThere's growing resentment against Western media for the way the news reported. Take a look at following links. I saw one of them personally on NYTimes couple of days ago. The one from CNN below the banner reads "California prisons" but the picture is from a mosque in Istanbul. One incident is a mistake, but multiple times same "mistake" only show malevolence. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FES7n-NcWkAMqaO1.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fcnn%2Fstatus%2F1237986945424334848&tbnid=6WOnxz6YnBrtJM&vet=12ahUKEwji1IDMjaLoAhUJz6wKHXyEBJcQMygBegUIARDzAQ..i&docid=8MWg45kUmJxQrM&w=720&h=960&itg=1&q=cnn%20prisons%20in%20california%20are%20suspending&ved=2ahUKEwji1IDMjaLoAhUJz6wKHXyEBJcQMygBegUIARDzAQ https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg... https://img.piri.net/mnresize/840/-/resim/imagecrop/2020/03/17/09/52/resized_31609-e8c09d93mansetkapak.jpg https://img.piri.net/mnresize/840/-/resim/imagecrop/2020/03/...
- mengibar10 7y agoThose who downvote should comment so that we hear your argument as well. In the end all this thread is more or less about freedom of speech.
- dmix 7y agoThose content platforms use keywords to automatically find pictures to help journalists. All of those photos would show up for "coronavirus" regardless of the context. It's just a...non-issue?
- mengibar10 7y agoI don't think so at all. A prison in CA from inside or outside looks completely different than a mosque in Istanbul. Here's what you get from Google for "coronavirus prison". https://www.google.com/search?q=coronavirus+prison&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwit6Y344qToAhWwA50JHVSKC5UQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=coronavirus+prison&gs_l=img.3..0l2.3418.4212..4827...0.0..0.104.592.6j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i131j0i67j0i131i67.HT8TRaTqiIs&ei=fXhyXu22CLCH9PwP1JSuqAk&bih=1221&biw=2233 https://www.google.com/search?q=coronavirus+prison&tbm=isch&...
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- vincvinc 7y agoThis is a big hit for journalism about China. A lot of very good quality reporting on (among others) Xinjiang came from these people. We will all be much less informed about China in the future. The subtle shift in confidence that this action implies is that China is confident in itself after "beating" the virus while the west is struggling. A "media war" between China and the US might be worse than a trade war. While a trade war is just about numbers, this will be about ideology and there will be no middle ground.
- datashow2 7y ago@dang, please ban all accounts involved in this thread.
- mengibar10 7y ago:) Including yours? Buy why?
- mac01021 7y ago"... whose press credentials end in 2020" is a significant part of the headline missing from the HN title.
- cepp 7y agoAll reporters must renew visas every year so it is inconsequential. It's a blanket ban.
- spectramax 7y agoPeople on HN engaging in whatboutism - can you please find a single article from the CCP state media that criticizes the CCP? I could literally go on WSJ/NYT/WaPo right now and find many articles criticizing US government. That's what free press means. China has no tolerance for truth if it collides with the CCP image.
- dang 7y agoPlease keep canned arguments like "whataboutism" off this site. It's a catchy name that masks a logical fallacy, pretending that comparables aren't relevant. Of course they're relevant. If something is comparable, it's legitimate to bring up. If it's not comparable, refute it by explaining why, not with a generic label. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20whataboutism&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- adultSwim 7y agoI can't blame them..
- bitxbit 7y agoChina is going to face a deep recession as corporations rethink supply chain. The communist party needs something to blame and US is a perfect target.
- dang 7y agoAll: This thread is terrible and violates the spirit of this site in too many ways to list. HN is not a place for nationalistic flamewar or accusing each other. Please don't do that damage here. The container is fragile. If this epidemic continues, we're going to do less "please don't" and more "we've banned". I don't mean the coronavirus— I mean the epidemic of violating HN's guidelines. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here. The vast majority of the community come here for curious conversation, not to hear people bashing each other and their countries in the same few ways over and over again. That's not only nasty, it's tedious. Please take it elsewhere. More explanation in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22605365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22605365
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- JungleGymSam 7y agoChina sucks.