16 ms·
Italian hospital saves Covid-19 patients by 3D printing valves
- cperciva 7y agoCan someone explain what a "reanimation device" is? It sounds like a bad translation. Some sort of ventilator?
- erik_seaberg 7y ago"resuscitation device"? I agree there's sort of a Frankenstein vibe to it. https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=it&text=reanimation%20device https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto... https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=dispositivo%20di%20rianimazione https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto...
- s0rce 7y agoI assume its a vent based on everything I've read saying that we will likely run out of those.
- toyg 7y agoIn Italian hospitals, there is traditionally a difference between Intensive Care Units ("Terapia Intensiva") and Reanimation ("Rianimazione") departments. Don't ask me what the difference is. A lot of what they do, however, tends to overlap, so in many places the two concepts were merged into a single department - which is basically what we'd internationally call an ICU dept. So in this case "reanimation device" is just "a device used in ICU".
- 1996 7y agoIIRC, "Terapia Intensiva" is for patients admitted through the ER and run by ER physicians while "Rianimazione" is for patients transmitted from other departments and run by anesthesiologists. Just another case of NIH!
- ck2 7y agoCan we 3D print a respirator yet? If it was in the united states the patients would just die while the administration insisted on waiting for the most profitable bids from various companies while the president did a press briefing to shake the hands of the various ceos and boast about raising their stock prices. Actually we may just get that scenario since we are on the Italian curve and so many people right now are out in bars, restaurants, etc. This is going to be a year to remember.
- crankylinuxuser 7y agoWell, I counter this with "Just do it anyways". When the SHTF, we individuals, clinics, and local areas won't give a shit what DC and their lackeys say or do. We're on our own, in a local collective way. If the 3d printed part is good for 1 person, then I'll print 10. And my buddy will print 10, and they'll print 10.
- 1996 7y agoI agree 100%. In theory, everybody cares about FDA certification and all the legal details like HIPPA and stuff. In practice, when SHTF ie in a situation like 9/11, most humans beings seem to do the best they can with what they have.
- The_suffocated 7y agoNot sure about oxygen respirators, but some civil organizations in Hong Kong have been 3D-printing filter cans for 3M 6200 face-piece respirators since mid-February, amid shortage of surgical face masks. The designs of the filter cans are modified so that, instead of using 3M's particulate filters, one cuts a surgical face mask into many smaller pieces and inserts only one piece of them into the filter can in each use.
- battery_cowboy 7y ago>A reanimation device consists of a reanimation bag which is placed on the chest of the patient and which has a tube connected to the lungs of the patient, e.g. by a mouthpiece. When the bag is compressed heart massage may be effected through the bag by the operator. Thus, a single person may carry out resuscitation and heart massage alternately. https://patents.google.com/patent/US3882860A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US3882860A/en Just something I found on google, not sure if this is 100 percent accurate, but it sounds like a manual, limited use heart/lung machine.
- mike_d 7y agoI think it is a poor translation of "resuscitation device" like an AED or likely a bag valve mask.
- Waterluvian 7y agoI think the idea is that you perform chest compressions and pump a bellows at the same time with the same motion so you don't need a second person to breathe air into them. Just a guess.
- mattkrause 7y agoYup. It's a not-quite-false cognate in French too (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/french-english/réanimation https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/french-english/...) Was very disappointed when the reanimation class wasn't taught by Dr. Frankenstein and only covered CPR.
- Vinnl 7y agoHuh, in Dutch as well. That might be useful knowledge if I ever get in a situation where I need an AED in an English-speaking country.
- paulkrush 7y agoI have no idea, but lets just say this works 98% of the time. It sounds like a good idea to give people a choice of nothing or something that works 98% of the time. How do you pre-plan for this and accept 98%? I have had this discussion with medical device QA people and they could not acknowledge such a choice like this could ever happen.
- woutr_be 7y agoI don’t really understand your reasoning, what are your arguments as to why it would be a good idea to give the choice?
- ncallaway 7y agoYou can choose as a patient between the following Scenarios: Scenario 1: No treatment option and you will die. or Scenario 2: Choose between the following options A) No treatment and you will die, OR B) Treatment with lower-quality QA standards (with a device that works, say, 98% of the time instead of the typical 99.9% of the time). Most people will prefer the scenario that gives them the choice. Note: these numbers made up purely for the hypothetical.
- CydeWeys 7y agoI think the point is more, don't even bother giving the choice. Just do the right thing which will maximize the survival of the patient, which is B in this case. People on the verge of death from illness aren't in the best place to be making logical decisions, and that's assuming that they're even still conscious or can talk (many of them are unconscious at this point and/or intubated). Just follow the Socratic oath and don't over-complicate things. Give the necessary treatments.
- throwaway748 7y agoI hate to be that guy but you're probably referring to the Hippocratic oath, although I wonder what a Socratic oath would entail :-P
- bigiain 7y agoI wonder how this'll play out longer term. I'm betting the company who designed/manufactures the ones they're copying isn't super happy about the implications for this... I wonder if there ought to be a 3D printed copyright license scheme kind of like the one that exists for music (APRA here in .au) where you can pay for a blanket licence to print copyrighted designs, and the licensing organisation redistributes copyright payments based on usage, so you don't need to ask for specific permission for each use?
- ISL 7y agoI'm betting the company is really happy that their clients have been able to keep patients alive.
- bigiain 7y agoSo it turns out... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200317/04381644114/volunteers-3d-print-unobtainable-11000-valve-1-to-keep-covid-19-patients-alive-original-manufacturer-threatens-to-sue.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200317/04381644114/volun... They sell them for $11,000 each, and threatened to sue the guy 3d printing them for a dollar a piece... :sigh:
- squarefoot 7y agoIn an emergency situation like this one, the patent owner company wouldn't risk a huge PR loss by suing or even complaining, but when the crisis will be over they might decide to act. However, if those valves are reverse engineered, copied and given away without selling them, there would be no profit. That should fall into fair use.
- bigiain 7y ago> That should fall into fair use. I think there's something 100% valid in what you're suggesting, but it seems there's a fair bit of confusion here. "Fair use" is a copyright thing, not a patent thing. I don't actually know if a widget (whether patented, patent expired, or never-patented) is covered by copyright - and even if it is, at least from what I know about copyright in music/literature, "fair use" wouldn't allow for making 100% complete working copies. "not for profit" doesn't fly as a defence against either copyright or patent infringement in other areas, I suspect it wouldn't here either. I'm reasonably sure if the "owner" of these valves started making noises about overly onerous enforcement of any patent/copyright that applies, and sane government would step in and declare some emergency-use legal exception for cases like this. I wonder if the "owner" could make some obvious olive-branch offer along the lines of: "Hey, that's our widget you're printing, but we totally understand that for the duration we were unable to get our version into your hands for reasons outside both our and your control. Normally we earn $x per widget when you source them through the usual channels, we are happy to waive that for the duration of the supply chain disruption, but ask that once things are back to normal, you continue to support the research and development that goes into those and other life saving products we make, and start buying from the usual supply chain, or paying our regular royalty on locally printed versions. Thanks, WidgetCompany"
- crankylinuxuser 7y agoAnybody have a link to the STL? I have a large format 3d printer (.5m x .5m x .5m) and am in Indiana.
- numpad0 7y agoThere’s an update at the end of article, they already have some polymer SLS version in hand. Probably not using FDM prototype at this point
- D_Alex 7y agoI am curious if this device needs to be leak-proof - to save oxygen or prevent the release of virus -??? The parts I print on my MakerBot are very porous...
- Barrin92 7y agoit was a very good thing that someone was quick on their feet and made this happen but 3d printing is no solution to the systematic lack of these supplies. The problem here, and I think this will be much worse in the weeks to come in the US and the UK, is the institutional decline of manufacturing capacity and the reliance on long supply chains from countries which are themselves at max capacity. Every country should be able to, in crisis, quickly switch to mass production of vital goods that guarantee the physical safety of their citizens. Globalisation and post-industrial societies might have created nice margins for some subset of the population for a while but I doubt the corona virus will be swayed by management consultants.
- meowface 7y agoI know this has nothing to do with universities and the scales are very different, but it's pretty absurd that universities stockpile and hoard billions in endowments which they don't really need, when first-world governments and hospitals aren't stockpiling things like critical medical supplies and drugs (or at least don't stockpile nearly enough of it).
- enitihas 7y agoStockpiling money is much easier.
- crooked-v 7y agoAlso, money usually doesn't have an expiration date. Drugs and most medical supplies do.
- dreamcompiler 7y agoInflation causes stored money to expire. It's kind of a moot point in an era of 0% interest though.
- enitihas 7y ago
- s0rce 7y agoSeems like this is a downside of single-use sterile medical parts. In most cases its much easier and safer to just grab a new single use part but in times of shortage you could sanitize and sterilize multiple use metal parts in house and get them back in use without needing to physically manufacturer more locally, which often isn't practical - even with additive manufacturing.
- Camillo 7y agoThis article could make one more concerned about that problem just by making them aware of it. But if you were previously concerned about it, this news should reassure you, since now you know that there is a solution available even in crisis conditions.
- s0rce 7y agoOnly for parts amenable to 3D printing, which is limited at the current state of technology.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y agoDepends on the nature of the contamination. Some pathogens are exceptionally difficult to de-contaminate, like Candida auris.
- adrianN 7y agoThere aren't many things that survive high pressure autoclaving. Prions are the only possible concern that I'm aware of.
- supandi 7y agoGood point
- bonestamp2 7y agoFrom what I understand, there are some components that can't be put in an autoclave and/or have areas that aren't well suited to autoclaving. So it may not be a one-size fits all solution.
- ltbarcly3 7y agoSo a 5 cent part that probably costs $500 due to whatever insane economics determines the price of medical equipment is 3d printed, and we are supposed to think this is good? Or even ok? This is insane.
- rocky1138 7y agoI think maybe you missed the part about the reason for not having them easily accessible wasn't cost, but simply availability: > She explained that the hospital in Brescia (near one of the hardest-hit regions for coronavirus infections) urgently needed valves (in the photo) for an intensive care device and that the supplier could not provide them in a short time.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ltbarcly3 7y agoIf they didn't cost $500 I bet they would have more on hand...
- jojobas 7y agoHopefully they won't get sued for using uncertified parts. Especially if somebody dies.
- skrebbel 7y agoGood thing they're not in the US.
- tehlike 7y agoIn the US, that would likely be the case. In Italy, probably not. Desperate time calls for desperate measures.
- ericd 7y agoHopefully the US Gov proclaims blanket amnesty so that people don't have to think about this.
- megous 7y agoOr fix the law, so that this issues goes away in the future, whithout having to repeatedly resort to ad-hoc measures and resulting legal uncertainty.
- megous 7y agoCompanies should be reminded that basis for patents is: > Article I, section 8, which reads "Congress shall have power ... to promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries." It would certainly be interesting to see "promotion of the progress of science and useful arts" to be pitted against "saving lives during a national emergency" in court, where the said company refuses to provide needed replacement parts. Something like that surely must have happened already?
- retrac 7y agoYes. Most countries have a system for compulsorily purchasing a patent if it's deemed in the public interest. With the 2001 anthrax attacks, the US government ordered Bayer to lower the cost of an antibiotic that treats anthrax, or lose their patent on the drug. (Bayer complied.)
- andrewseanryan 7y agoThis crisis is moving technology to the forefront even more. From life saving equipment, to entertainment/communication/learning for the quarantined. There are countless ways for tech to play a large and important role.
- dt3ft 7y agoWas anyone able to download the 3D model of the said valve?
- znpy 7y agoI don't think the model is going to be shared. The people printing the valve have already technically committed copyright infringement. Sharing the model with other hospitals that need to get them printed might be still borderline but still (I hope) tolerated. But going further and sharing the model to the public could degenerate into a serious lawsuit.
- tyre 7y agoThis is as good a case for jury nullification as I’ve seen in a long time.
- cultofmetatron 7y agoI don't think they have juries in civil suits
- Balgair 7y agoItaly is not a common law nation, they are a civil law nation. I'm not a Italian attorney, but I don't think a jury would ever be involved, just investigators and judge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_legal_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_legal_systems
- ncmncm 7y agoValves are not subject to copyright. These valves are patented, as noted in the article. Probably an equally good valve design whose patent has expired could be used instead. It is not uncommon to patent a new design just different enough, but not actually better, to avoid competition.
- thomasfl 7y agoI except someone is already be tinkering with a fully 3d printed reanimation machine using 3d printet plastics parts and off the shelf motors.
- taf2 7y agoMakes me wonder what would it take to 3D print other life saving devices? And are there designs online in the public domain ?
- ssmiler 7y agoI won't be surprised if original part manufacturer sues these guys, hospitals for IP infringement...
- indymike 7y agoThat would be the most tone-deaf lawsuit I've ever seen.
- ssmiler 7y agoApparently the company have already threatened them https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-italy-medical-company-threatens-sue-3d-print-valves-treatments https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-ital...
- adamhepner 7y agowasn't there a crowd effort to make and mass 3d-print ventilators? I guess I've seen in couple of days ago on reddit
- ant78 7y agoWould it be possible to make or print parts to enable a single ventilator support multiple patients? A few studies suggest it could be done: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18164798 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18164798 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16885402 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16885402 Could be faster than building new ventilators.
- mattkrause 7y agoYou usually "tune" the ventilator parameters to each patient, so they'd have to be fairly similar size, need, etc. Too much volume (or pressure, depending on the control mode) can injure the lungs, too little and you're not addressing the underlying problem very well.
- Santoshtamang35 7y agoSantoshtamang3555@gmail.com
- TaylorAlexander 7y agoI feel like we as the tech community need to let hospitals know we’re available to help with design and 3D printing of critical parts. But how wouldn’t the hospitals know what parts are 3D printable and how would we ever organize to contact them? I’m in the Bay Area and I could make myself available to design and print anything anyone needs. Does anyone have ideas on how to determine what parts would be helpful?
- ENOTTY 7y agoI urge makers and more professionalized 3D printers to familiarize themselves with FDA guidelines[1] on 3D printing and internalize their thinking. No doubt this will slow you down, but you have time right now to prepare before the shortages begin. This will make things safer for patients, give confidence to medical professionals that you have your head in the right place, and likely demonstrate good faith in the event that the FDA comes after you (after the COVID-19 crisis ends). I recommend reading "Technical Considerations for Additive Manufactured Medical Devices". Then start discussions in your professional societies to make contact with the FDA as a group and start to develop guidance targeted for the COVID-19 emergency. [1]: https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/products-and-medical-procedures/3d-printing-medical-devices https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/products-and-medical-pro...
- c0ndu17 7y agohttps://www.projectopenair.org/ https://www.projectopenair.org/
- Wistar 7y agoThe Verge: "Medical company threatens to sue volunteers that 3D-printed valves for life-saving coronavirus treatments" In this case IP might mean Intolerable Pricks. https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-italy-medical-company-threatens-sue-3d-print-valves-treatments https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-ital...