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iOS now requires Sign On with Apple alongside other auth providers
- jcrites 7y agoPretty sure this was announced at the same time as Sign On with Apple originally, no? According to the Wayback Machine, the same terms were present as early as October 1st 2019 (maybe earlier; didn't look): https://web.archive.org/web/20191001161920/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20191001161920/https://developer...
- satysin 7y agoWhen Sign in with Apple was announced it was stated it wouldn't be a requirement until April 2020. As per https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09122019b https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09122019b
- jannotti 7y agoThey also used to say you needed to do this if you "exclusively" used third party sign on. Now it's if you use third party sign on at all.
- bruceb 7y agoSo all iOS apps must now offer Apple sign-in?? I am getting this right, this seems like it would trigger some anti trust action?
- KukicAdnan 7y agoOnly if they offer other social login options like Facebook and Twitter for example. If the app doesn't support oAuth, then there's no requirement to have sign in with apple.
- bruceb 7y agoStill seems a bit crazy. Dictating that apps have to have Apple login. Seems no real justification other than Apple can use its power.
- vbezhenar 7y agoApple store, apple rules.
- RL_Quine 7y agoSeems strange to me that people don't get this. If you don't like these rules, you're welcome to just not use their hardware. All of the rules Apple is implementing like this are by and large, for the benefit of the users, so I don't see the problem whatsoever.
- sneak 7y agoOpinions vary. The lack of browser extensibility is not always a benefit to the user, for example. Apple not permitting apps that display certain types of legal content in the App Store is not a benefit to users that like to produce or consume those types of content. Censorship sucks, even if Apple is legally permitted to do it because it’s their store. It’s rude. Hopefully the rumor that Apple is soon going to let you select a different default browser/mail/music/photos app is true, and this will be less of an issue. It will still be an issue because of the many types of apps that Apple simply censors entirely from the store, from Tumblr to Tor to VPNs in China.
- ardit33 7y agoLol... sure..... I worked for Spotify, and apple did all kind of hoopla to delay/deny the iOS updates.... My favorite one: If you did tap at one of the support/help tabs, it would open a webpage, which contained the support text, and the app got rejected, because after about THREE links, that would lead to the homepage, and there was a premium offer, and you can't have it..... They kept denying updates for reasons like that.... "Coincidentally" they released their streaming service that month.... That's extremely anti-competitive..... and it wasn't done for the benefit of the user, but for the benefit of Apple only. When a user buys a phone, they have a reasonable expectations that other apps would work, and you will not be forced to use apple only services (directly or indirectly). I.e. they are false advertising their phones.....
- fnordsensei 7y agoOnly if the app offers other third-party sign in options. A service that relies only on itself for authentication doesn’t need to provide it.
- jmull 7y ago> (if) I am getting this right You aren't.
- k-ian 7y agoSign in with Apple is not required if: - Your app exclusively uses your company’s own account setup and sign-in systems. - Your app is an education, enterprise, or business app that requires the user to sign in with an existing education or enterprise account. - Your app uses a government or industry-backed citizen identification system or electronic ID to authenticate users. - Your app is a client for a specific third-party service and users are required to sign in to their mail, social media, or other third-party account directly to access their content.
- JoshTriplett 7y agoThere's an additional point above that which is more important: > Apps that use a third-party or social login service (such as Facebook Login, Google Sign-In, Sign in with Twitter, Sign In with LinkedIn, Login with Amazon, or WeChat Login) to set up or authenticate the user’s primary account with the app must also offer Sign in with Apple as an equivalent option. You only have to offer "Sign in with Apple" if you already have third-party login options. It would be completely unreasonable to require adding a third-party login option if you don't already have one. But if you already have third-party login options, having uniformity seems reasonable.
- untog 7y agoThat’s covered by the first bullet the OP posted: - Your app exclusively uses your company’s own account setup and sign-in systems.
- JoshTriplett 7y agoIt wasn't obvious from the quote what the alternative case was.
- cma 7y ago> It would be completely unreasonable to require adding a third-party login option if you don't already have one. But if you already have third-party login options, having uniformity seems reasonable. What if they required the same thing on websites by having their browser engine look for Facebook/Google sign ins and require an Apple one be present before displaying the page?
- onyva 7y agoThat’s great news. I never use apps that force me to login with either Google Facebook or twitter. There should always be an option to login with an email address and Apple’s login with disposable non personal email is really easy and useful.
- isofivepatoi 7y agoYes. Given the other article on the front page regarding the guy who got dragged in by the dystopian drag net, we need companies who don’t rely on keeping our information in PII form in order to make money or hold their stock value. This should be cheered by all.
- 76543210 7y agoI'm a FOSS person. This is a massive step back in progress. I weep for everyone stuck in a single company's ecosystem. You will be abused before it's over.
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- highlandinfo 7y agoYou have not read the guideline carefully or have misinterpreted it; nothing in it locks the end-user into Apple's ecosystem. The requirement is only that if the app uses a third-party authentication system (Facebook, Google, etc.), it must also offer Sign In with Apple alongside it. You're free to roll your own sign-in system, in which case you are not required to offer Sign In with Apple. Not seeing a problem here.
- buboard 7y agosign in with apple locks you into apple's caprices, there is no way around that. Apple will know where you 're signing in , and you will lose access to your account if apple decides they no longer like the app, or they no longer like you.
- steve_taylor 7y agoDoes it apply to social games that optionally allow users to sign in with Facebook to compare their progress with that of their friends? Sign in with Apple would seem utterly useless for this very common use case.
- VoxPelli 7y agoFor that Apple already has Game Center, and Sign In with Apple is no social network, so it by itself could not replace anything like that
- gojomo 7y agoVery analogous to the ‘tying’ that can be prosecuted under antitrust law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)
- tptacek 7y agoIn what way? SIWA isn't a product and the features it "competes" with (Google and Facebook OIDC) aren't really products either, and Apple is only requiring that SIWA be available alongside them as an option.
- gojomo 7y agoDo customers receive a benefit from these sign-in services, and then do Apple, Facebook, Google also receive some form of compensation in return for the costs/overhead of providing such services? That Apple/FB/Google compensation being some mix of: other product purchases, user behavioral data (including the valuable extra peek into their usage of these 1st-party apps), additional ad impressions of higher value with this deeper customer lock-in, etc. A hyperliteralist could argue over what exactly the product/service is, in each case - sign-on itself? The whole stack of other customized media these companies serve to the same users? Synergistic old products or bulled services? The app store? But the fact pattern, & effect of a ‘big guy’ using market power to force partners/customers/users/developers/competitors to unnaturally add a new, pro-Apple-profits option to their own separate offerings quacks like antitrust tying.
- tptacek 7y agoI think the difference between forcing people to "buy" a product (or select a house product instead of "buying" a third party option) and forcing people to comply with a platform standard is in fact going to be material in an anti-trust case. I'm not sure I see the "pro-Apple-profits" angle here. Generally, customers are better off with IdP-assisted login than with one-off password login, and if that feature needs to exist for UX and safety reasons, it seems understandable that Apple wouldn't want Facebook locking everyone into Facebook's extremely intrusive IdP.
- VoxPelli 7y agoIntroduction session from last years WWDC: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/706/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/706/
- diegoperini 7y agoWhat is the difference between sign-in and sign-on if there are any?
- codezero 7y agoPretty sure they are analogous like log in and log on.
- dmitshur 7y agoIf an app supports the IndieAuth protocol [1] for the purposes of authenticating the user's primary account, would that be considered "a third-party or social login service" and be forced to also support "Sign in with Apple"? It is third-party in the sense the user (who is a third party from the perspective of the app) is supplying the authentication service, but it's not a pre-existing social login. It's likely that the IndieAuth protocol wasn't on their radar, and so they haven't considered it when coming up with this rule. [1]: https://indieauth.net/ https://indieauth.net/
- diebeforei485 7y agoI think this is great, actually. I wouldn't have created a TikTok account if not for their anonymous email relay feature.
- tatersolid 7y agoHow “anonymous” is a feature from a social media company operated from a totalitarian state?
- cageface 7y agoMaybe this is really done out of concern for the user but it's awfully convenient how many of Apple's "privacy" moves also bind their users more tightly into their ecosystem.
- hugi 7y agoPersonally I'm sincerely grateful there's at least one company that gives a shit about my privacy. And I will never understand why some people choose to attack them for it.
- cageface 7y agoBecause no matter how much you trust Apple's good intentions now you also have to trust them in perpetuity. When you relinquish your own power and agency to a third party it can be very hard to get it back. Maybe you trust Apple and Tim Cook today but do you trust their next CEO and the next? It's the same reason I don't let Google keep any of my browsing and location history even though I might benefit from that as a user today. I don't trust what they might want to do with that data later. If you think any billion dollar company is acting in any interests but its own you're being naive.
- hugi 7y agoWhat data are you talking about? They're explicitly doing this to prevent the ad companies (Google and Facebook) from collecting data. What data is Apple collecting?
- cageface 7y agoMy concern with Apple isn't about collecting data it's about removing choices. I can't sideload apps on my iPhone, even if they might be essential to fighting a totalitarian government (HKMaps). I can't use any browser but Safari on what is supposedly my phone. I can't buy books through the Kindle app without paying Apple a 30% cut. Honestly this stuff scares me more than the data collection that Google does, for example, because at least I have some control there. And Apple's privacy controls are kind of moot anyway if I use iCloud and all my data is just one subpoena away from anybody that wants it.
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- gruez 7y agoGood. There was some app I downloaded last year which only had facebook or google sign on. You couldn't register with an email. I ended up deleting the app.
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- dmitryminkovsky 7y agoIt looks like Apple Sign On only works with iOS >=13. If someone creates an account on a new device, they won't be able to sign in using an old device on 12? Should I drop support for 12 in my app?
- TrueGeek 7y agoIt’s likely you may want to anyway. Do you usage logs show any users on 12?
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- dmitryminkovsky 7y agoMe? :). I'm reluctant to update my iPhone SE to 13.
- ValentineC 7y agoI'm still on iOS 12.4 on an iPhone XS, and I'm reluctant to update.
- evanjd 7y agoThe way we manage this by allowing users to link multiple identity providers to their login. So if they drop back to iOS 12, they can use another social provider (or reset their password) to sign into their existing account so long as the e-mail matches. This obviously doesn't work for anonymous sign in, but there's not much we can do about that.
- dang 7y agoRelated recent threads: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=comments%3E2%20sign%20%22with%20apple%22&sort=byDate&type=story&storyText=none https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
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- techntoke 7y agoImagine the hate Google would get here it they had something similar.
- gnud 7y agoI will complain if Apple forbid apps from offering "sign in with google/facebook/twitter/whatever", but as long as they only make apps offer an alternative, I don't have a huge problem. This is a much smaller issue for me than "no alternative browsers" or "no sideloading".
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y agoMy problem with “sign in with Google” is that the app will often times ask for additional permissions, such as access to contacts and even sometimes email! I have to be so careful with it. It should just be a way to login and nothing else.
- ethanbond 7y agoWell Google’s intent in doing so would be solely to siphon up more user data, which is distinct and totally worth criticizing.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y agoAnd is manifestly the opposite goal of Apple, which is to create a privacy firewall between users and apps.
- techntoke 7y agoLol, Apple's goal is the lock you into their ecosystem so that it is near impossible to ever switch away. Privacy comes with customer's controlling their data and Android has F-Droid.
- akiselev 7y agoOr they've run out of high growth low hanging fruit and are trying to grab a bigger piece of the pie now that the app ecosystem has fleshed out the tracking and mobile ads market. The number of privacy conscious users is minuscule compared to the rest of the market (I'd love to be some evidence otherwise) and Apple is a corporation. Its way forward is clear.
- topherPedersen 7y agoDealing with Apple and the App Store is such a pain. As a cross platform (React/React-Native) developer, I worry about supporting iOS users last because of all the hoops Apple makes you jump through to develop and publish an app. When I publish on the Google Play Store my app always gets approved within a few hours. The same approval process for the App Store takes days. Everything costs more too... I can develop for Android on a $400 computer targeting a $100 phone. In order to develop for iOS I use $4,000 computer and a $500 phone. So now I've adopted a new 3 platform strategy: web, android, iOS. If I can publish on all three, great! Two out of three? That works too. In the worst case scenario I'll still be able to target 1 of the three.
- freehunter 7y agoI also develop React Native for Android and iOS and my laptop is a 2015 base model MBP that I bought brand new for about $1200. One of my coworkers uses a $600 MacBook Air. You certainly don’t need a $4000 computer if what you’re doing also would run on a $400 Windows laptop.
- lukevp 7y agoThis is really exaggerated. You can get a current-gen Mac mini for $800 if you don’t want to buy used or a previous gen, you don’t need a $4000 computer to run Xcode. Also approval times on Apple are a few hours these days, when was the last time you published an app on the App Store? It used to be 7-14 days but it’s not like that anymore.
- scarface74 7y agoAs a user, the last thing the world needs is another cross platform. I’m okay if fewer React Native apps appear on iOS.
- xenospn 7y agoFalse. You're making it all up. I use a 2013 MacBook Pro to develop a cross platform app and have purchased multiple used phones to test and develop with for a lot less than $500. And if you're not making it all up, you're highly incompetent.
- 7y ago
- awinter-py 7y agohello antitrust my old friend
- kerbs 7y agoUnder what definition of antitrust is this? You can still sign in with one of those social providers. You can always put your money somewhere other than Apple.
- rdl 7y agoSeems at least as bad as what got Microsoft consent decreed back in the 90s...
- gerash 7y agoThat would've been called an antitrust abuse by any other company but it seems Apple gets a pass by its fans. Apple ecosystem is completely closed off. It does make it easier to ship software. For example they've hijacked SMS by creating their own iMessage, they tried to take full control of the mobile news publishing until Google came up with AMP and they have been dragging their feet when it comes to new web standards in Safari because they prefer native apps. So the morale of the story is as long as you ship quality products you'll get a pass for tactics other companies don't usually get a pass for. None of openness, fairness, privacy, etc. matters really.
- smohare 7y agoLol, man go spread your disinformation somewhere else.
- dang 7y agoCould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN? especially ones that are personal attacks and/or name-calling. We're trying for a bit better than that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. When a comment says something false, better options are to respectfully provide correct information so the rest of us can learn something, or (if you don't want to or don't have time) to simply let it go as someone being wrong on the internet again.
- aeontech 7y agoHow would this qualify as “antitrust abuse” exactly? You are free to use your own sign on system without adding this.
- ohmaigad 7y agoHow it is not? If your app offers its own login and any of the social logins you must implement Apple login as well.
- 7y ago
- PierceJoy 7y agoGood. It's 10x better than any other sign on system out there. The ease of use and privacy protections are incredible. This will force the other companies to up their game or get left behind as no user in their right mind would use something else if given the choice.
- wutwutwutwut 7y agoSince I haven't used it, I'm curious: How is the ease of use so much better than with other systems?
- PierceJoy 7y agoTap the Sign on with Apple button. Native dialog pops up with two sections. First section shows your name with an edit button. You can change your first and last name to whatever you want. Second section has two radio buttons, provide your real email address or provide a proxy address. Click continue. Done.
- fmakunbound 7y agoThis is great. iPhone might be the smaller platform, but your app ain’t shit until you have it Apple’s App Store. Definitely a plus for iPhone users, and doesn’t matter for the other platform.
- hurricanetc 7y agoSign In with Apple is one of the biggest privacy advances of the last few years. I am all for anything that forces more adoption among developers.
- pensatoio 7y agoAs someone who switched from Android to iOS about eight years ago, I understand how people on both platforms might react to this negatively. However, I, for one, am very happy this is happening. I hate signing in with social accounts, but sometimes it's so much easier than trying to sign up with an app's custom sign up form. I will happily pick Sign On with Apple 100% of the time to avoid linking to my Facebook or Google identity.
- buboard 7y agoGood move, this will push a lot of developers away from the app store, and back into making websites instead of apps. Having your user base locked in by apple is much more precarious than other sign-in providers who are nonchalant about rejecting/censoring developers. As for the users opting in to have their emails directly relayed and read by apple .... i don't know what to think of it.
- kimsant 7y agoHow to detect a blind apple supporter? - He says, Apple is pro privacy - He redirects systematically with some 301 all monopolistic apple moves to Facebook concerns or Google. - Finally he has a fallback gateway when discusing "don't buy apple" if you go with "I want to be free about that thingy in my iPhone" Apple is pro Money, and all it does is 2 things now : - More Money - Brand image building, apple is PC , apple is the PC Fraternity of southPark haha, and blind supporters are its members.
- dwardu 7y agoIt’s a convenient thing but this will slow down development for dev teams that don’t have the time to set this up. Apple should at least do some sort of “countdown” of releases, e.g. you can release updates for security but you must implement this within the next X feature releases.
- hamilyon2 7y agoThat could actually degrade user choices in exchange of more privacy in ios apps. Developers could remove other login choices in favor of their own email based login.
- Betelgeuse90 7y agoGenerally you can't remove a login choice that easily. If you already have your own login + 3rd party logins, removing a 3rd party can create friction with your existing users. If you only had 3rd party logins, then you can either remove them and develop a single first party login, or add Apple's login (which is likely much easier and safer). It's pretty clear to me what the incentives look like for developers these cases, and they don't seem like they could result in less choice.
- Mikho 7y agoThe only reason for 3rd party authorization is that these 3rd party auth services are ubiquitous unlike Apple's one. How the hell Apple expects people to use a service with an Apple auth in Windows 10 Edge browser is beyond any reasonable explanation. And definitely no sane developer would require users to use Apple's auth outside Apple ecosystem. So, what we see here is a dictatorship of a monopolist player to lock users into their own ecosystem. That's a weak move that shows how insecure Apple is as to users' churning. Shame.