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SUVs and pickup trucks are now too big for already gigantic garages

111 points by edward 7y ago

alamortsubite 7y ago
The next time you're driving on a highway in the U.S., entertain yourself by playing this game: count the number of pickup trucks (non-commercial) with empty beds, resetting to zero every time you spy one that's actually carrying or towing something. Try not to be surprised when you reach the triple digits!
- shaneprrlt 7y ago
  How could I possibly see what's in the bed from the driver seat of my Honda Accord?
  - d1zzy 7y ago
    You mean you aren't driving your own SUV/truck? Get out of here! /s
- addisonl 7y ago
  How do you see into their bed unless you are also in a truck?
  - Yizahi 7y ago
    If there is anything inside which doesn't stick out above truck sides then it can be carried in a regular medium sedan just as well. So count them as not carrying anything worth buy a truck for.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  What gets me. For a while I owned a van as my only vehicle. I was only driving about 3000 miles a year. Then my company moved and I was driving 12000 miles a year. And I bought a used Prius. Because when I ran the numbers the van would have cost around $10,000/yr. Vs $4000 for the Prius. I see people commuting in full sized trucks all the time and I don't get it. It's 80 cents a mile when you add everything up.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    I'm sure there are alternatives, but If you spend a significant amount of time in your vehicle everyday, the size and comfort of the vehicle does come into play. For one, if you are a big person, either horizontally or vertically, a Prius can become less than comfortable. Also, sciatica and back issues can come into play. I know for me, sitting for too long in a small car keeps me folded a little too tightly to the point that my lower back will start to throb. Where sitting up and stretched out with a high enough seat to keep the bottoms of my thighs supported while feet are flat on the floor or at the petals makes a big difference for back and leg pain.
- strikelaserclaw 7y ago
  I moved to dallas from the east coast, i was quite surprised at how many people view having a pickup truck as some kind of status symbol (southern culture). Nothing like seeing a lifted pickup hurling towards you at 75 mph in your rear view mirror everyday.
  - zip1234 7y ago
    And it seems every pickup in Texas has a brush guard on the front, making it even bigger.
    - msisk6 7y ago
      It depends on where you live in Texas, but you only have to hit a deer once to understand the utility of those ugly brushguards. My son ran into a deer with our beater Aerostar minivan awhile back it totaled it. Airbag went off and everything. Meanwhile I hit a deer with my Ram diesel pickup with a Ranchhand guard last week and no damage. So they do have some utility. ;) I do agree these trucks are ridiculous; if I didn't have a farm and the need to haul a large trailer I probably wouldn't have it. As it is we mostly drive my wife's Subaru when we actually need to go somewhere unladened.
      - dillonmckay 7y ago
        What model RAM?
  - thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
    Yeah, it's really weird. I've always noticed that the top 3 best seller of vehilcles in the US were pick up trucks. and articles talk about them like their somehow aspirational. I've always thought of them as big, ugly and dorky: about as far away as cool gets.
  - zerr 7y ago
    Another way to look at it would be - the person is not rich enough to own several types of vehicles therefore owns the most universal one.
- barryparr 7y ago
  You can also do this survey in a parking lot. For bonus points, check the bed liner for wear, which is a good indication whether they ever haul anything in their truck. Many are surprisingly pristine.
- sjg007 7y ago
  Pickups are the number one selling vehicle class in the US.
  - baddox 7y ago
    According to what system of vehicle classification? I would have guessed crossovers to sell more, if that's considered a vehicle class.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Are we gonna count 5-passenger cars that only have the front row occupied while we're at it? Not having to use your vehicle to capacity at all times is one of the hallmarks of being at least middle class (at least in the US).
  - BluePen7 7y ago
    And the lower class, a 4 door 5 seater sedan is what I drove when I didn’t have that much money. If I’d had more money, I could afford a coupe. And if I had more money still, I could afford a 2 seater sports car. An under utilized vehicle may be a hallmark of the middle class, but a desirable vehicle that is only exactly what you need at that moment is a hallmark of the upper class. On top of being more expensive, it’s also far more likely to be a secondary vehicle.
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    That 5 passenger car is going to use WAYYYY less gas then the mostly empty giant truck, while also being less of a risk to other drivers and not obstructing other car's view.
    - jjeaff 7y ago
      Not as much as you think. 2019 f150 is rated 22/30 mpg. 2019 Honda Civic is 32/40. (Side note, a Prius will only get you to about 50) So you are going to spend 20-30% less on gas which, depending on how much you drive and gas prices, might amount to around $100/month. Then of course deduct the cost of a rental and the hassle and if you need a truck once a month, you are already about even.
  - cafard 7y ago
    Outside of professional truckers--and we won't count the trip back to the loading dock--who regularly uses his vehicle to capacity at all times?
- baddox 7y ago
  While you're looking out for laughably low vehicle utilization, count the number of cars that only have a driver and no passengers.
- tchock23 7y ago
  Here is another game... Sit outside of a car wash and count how many of these supposed "utility" vehicles go through them. They're almost always spotless both before and after they go through...
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  Exception's gotta be Orlando then, cause every other truck is full of tools and what have you, at least in my morning drives to work.
- cafard 7y ago
  I haven't driven much the last ten years, but used to find myself behind a lot of sports utes with a driver and at most one passenger. For the rest, they here hauling empty space, and I would fantasize about suggesting that they just get a sedan and a compressed-air tank.
arielweisberg 7y ago
Miata Is Always The Answer On a more serious note I have been watching YouTube car reviews for a while and eventually they get bored and start reviewing SUVs and CUVs. There is an internal capacity difference between wagons and sedans. Wagons and sedans lose internal capacity to drivetrain components because the body rises lower. Great for handling and efficiency. It becomes really obvious when you look at The Straight Pipes box test. That said just because the difference exists doesn’t mean people know or need it.
- pengaru 7y ago
  > Miata Is Always The Answer It really is http://pengaru.com/~vc/tmp/tank1.jpg http://pengaru.com/~vc/tmp/tank1.jpg
- johnbrodie 7y ago
  Miata is Always The Answer doesn't really nest well. You get a Miata, you turn it into a track/race car... Now you need a truck to tow it, can't really load a Miata onto a Miata, unfortunately.
avalys 7y ago
Article is written by someone who does not own a truck or SUV and consists mainly of him sneering in superiority at those who do. Aaron Gordon, whoever you are: mind your own damn business.
- jefurii 7y ago
  I support Aaron Gordon's right to express his opinions, which I happen to share. I also assert that people who buy and drive gratuitously huge trucks are polluting the atmosphere, which affects me and my family and which gives me a right to weigh in on this. [Note: I did not downvote you - that was other people.]
  - caconym_ 7y ago
    Polluting the atmosphere, sure, but don't forget that their masses and geometries also put other road users in direct mortal danger to a degree that reasonably sized cars don't. It's almost funny how so many large SUV and truck owners actively project the attitude their vehicular choices imply: "I don't give a shit about anybody but myself."
  - chrisan 7y ago
    In addition to not driving a truck did you also give up meat which is a far bigger harm to the environment?
    - jefurii 7y ago
      As a matter of fact I have given up eating beef (except for certain special occasions involving traditional family foods) and drinking cow's milk for this very reason. I also restrict my intake of pork, which is the next most environmentally-damaging food animal. I'm definitely not a vegetarian, more like a flexitarian.
      - chrisan 7y ago
        > except for certain special occasions involving traditional family foods Nice, we are trying to get there. Down to kike once or twice a month for red meat. Rest is vegetarian and chicken maybe twice a week.
thrill 7y ago
The rant at this link is mostly holier-than-thou word porn. Try visiting the referenced article instead for a slightly more informative piece: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2020/03/05/suvs-pickups-trucks-garages-parking/4904811002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2020/03/05/suvs-pi...
Someone1234 7y ago
Space requirements for families have also increased. Which is rarely discussed when talking about why more people are buying SUVs. Car seats are a legal requirement. Most take up more space than a fully grown adult and due to additional padding/side impact protection, keep growing. So a family that needs to fit three kids across, only really has the choice of SUVs or more expensive Minivans (the cheap/fleet tier Minivans cost the same as low end SUVs while being worse/outdated designs). So why do people buy SUVs? Higher ride means that more of the car's internals can be pushed out of the passenger compartment (particularly the rear seat/trunk) and they have a wider Axle track meaning longer seats. Which is conveniently exactly what car seats and strollers benefit from. Meaning they're great family cars. The continued rise in trucks is more due to the Crew Cab-style becoming functional, and them being used as a family vehicle as well as utility (e.g. moving, dump runs, DIY projects, etc). Without even trying to understand why people buy these vehicles, the discussion largely turns into moralizing. People have good reasons on a whole. They don't need to be using a Crew Cab truck exclusively for work for it to make sense, or an SUV for off-road adventures (most SUVs cannot off-road anyway).
- triceratops 7y ago
  > Space requirements for families have also increased. Wouldn't that be offset by the falling birth rate in the US? [1] > So a family that needs to fit three kids across The size of the average household or family hasn't appreciably increased or decreased since roughly 1985.[2] > People have good reasons on a whole. They're cheaper than anywhere else in the world, and people feel safer in them. They're reasons, but not especially good ones. 1. https://www.npr.org/2019/05/15/723518379/u-s-births-fell-to-a-32-year-low-in-2018-cdc-says-birthrate-is-at-record-level https://www.npr.org/2019/05/15/723518379/u-s-births-fell-to-... 2. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a-family-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a...
  - Someone1234 7y ago
    > Wouldn't that be offset by the falling birth rate in the US? So because the birth rate is lower in aggregate, people with three kids don't exist? Or that they should need less space somehow? I don't understand the relevance to either the post you replied to or even the article itself. Seems like you're responding to a point nobody made, including yourself. > They're cheaper than anywhere else in the world, and people feel safer in them. They're reasons, but not especially good ones. Why did you even reply to a post when you're ignoring what it said? If you want to grandstanding about this topic, by all means reply to the thread as a whole. That's what top level replies are for. Why reply to a specific post if you have no interest in discussing that post's content or ideas? Nothing you replied to even came close to being relevant, I'm not even sure you read the post you replied to.
symfoniq 7y ago
I always preferred sporty sedans. But then I became a (relatively handy) homeowner and a father. After I got my pickup truck with a crew cab, I couldn't imagine not owning one, even though (as the title says) it barely fits in my garage. I work from home and drive maybe 6K miles per year, so the fuel costs and emissions aren't a significant consideration for me. But there's something in the bed almost every weekend, and even when there isn't, there's usually a kid or three in the back seat. If you don't have a family, or you automatically call a handyman when something breaks, I can understand why you might not want or need to own one of these magnificent vehicles. But for many of us, these trucks are carefully considered purchases that solve a lot of problems.
- triceratops 7y ago
  I don't know if everyone that hauls stuff absolutely needs a pickup truck. MMM literally builds houses from the ground up without using one.[1] 1. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-car-into-a-big-one/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-...
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I am not even opposed to pickups but the sheer size of a lot of them is just obscene. You could get most of the benefits from a much smaller pickup.
  - floren 7y ago
    For years, the only option for an even slightly small pickup was the Toyota Tacoma, which is still pretty hefty. The newly-revived Ford Ranger looks like it'll be ok, but I haven't had a chance to get up close to one yet for a proper evaluation.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      >the only option for an even slightly small pickup was the Toyota Tacoma, The only option for people who turn up their nose at GM. They've been making the Colorado/Canyon continiously since they EOL'd the S10.
davidw 7y ago
MMM's advice on trucks is sage: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-wo... In other words, you should have a truck if you're using it for work and drive it around loaded.
- mseidl 7y ago
  This is amazing.
- lutorm 7y ago
  I love that article! The image of him holding the huge drill press to drill a little hole in the plank so perfectly describes the situation.
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  MMM is out of somewhere sort of rural though, no? Aside from the obvious financial angle -- which is correct, thems big fancy trucks are money obliterators -- there is also a personal axe to grind. And I get it, even as a dude that used to drive a truck. US truck culture is weird and kind of toxic.
  - davidw 7y ago
    He lives in Longmont, Colorado, which has nearly 100K people. I think he mostly rides his bike for everything, and has some kind of electric vehicle for when the bike doesn't suffice.
Whatarethese 7y ago
There is very small subset of people who actually need an SUV or Truck. Most cars now days can comfortably fit 5. Most cars can fit 2 car seats with a booster seat. Most get them because they like to sit up high so they can see over traffic. That doesn't help when everyone else drives an SUV or Truck.
- lacker 7y ago
  I can get two adults and three kids into a Prius, and it works okay if we're driving somewhere ten minutes away, but we don't have enough room to include luggage for a family trip.
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  It most definitely still helps. I drive a CUV, which isn't as tall as a SUV but I can properly see through the window of an SUV and see quickly when red lights from the car in front of him come on so I can start slowing down ahead of time.
- bcrosby95 7y ago
  When we had twins (and a 4 year old at the time) we tried to make do with a smaller car. Putting them all in the same row was disastrous once the twins hit around 1 year old. We couldn't go a trip without at least one of our kids crying most of the way. Now everyone is outside of hair pulling, biting, pinching, toy/book stealing, throwing, and spitting range. I guess my kids are just animals. It certainly seems to work for some parents. Maybe it will work out better when they're older.
  - AdamN 7y ago
    Sounds like you need a minivan, not a truck
- basch 7y ago
  The nice thing about a truck is that the trunk is outdoors. Hose it off, car wash. It's kind of surprising Toyota doesnt have an outdoor edition of the 4runner thats basically the same thing but with a waterproof rubber back instead of carpet, and some kind of removable divider. Take the seats out and hose it down.
symmitchry 7y ago
The rise of the Platinum F350 as a luxury vehicle is something I wouldn't have predicted. It's crazy how much money people are willing to spend on an impractical vehicle like a full-size pickup. That being said, I really like big trucks. I guess it's selfish to want one, but I still do. Of course I don't live in the city, where it would be more hassle than enjoyable.
- sjg007 7y ago
  I mean I want a Suburban or Expedition... I mean I guess I could get a minivan too but having towing capacity for something I may never tow sounds good. :/
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  I've heard contractors complaining that they can't get cheap basic work trucks anymore. That was one of my thoughts about people complaining about non ones going to buy an electric vehicles because 'too expensive'. Have they priced a full sized truck lately?
- slouch 7y ago
  See also top-of-line Harley Davidsons above $40,000
doe88 7y ago
Corollary: it becomes more and more difficult to open doors and get out of vehicles in shrinking parking spots designed only few years ago (at least where I live in Europe).
ndonnellan 7y ago
I have been fitting a little under 1000lbs of sand / gravel in my hatchback (elantra gt) a few times this past week. It can also handle 10' 2x4s for short drives. Given than I only need that a few times a year, it's a no brainer. Also, Home Depot rents trucks/vans for $30 for 75 minutes; U-Haul is better if you need them for the whole day. I sometimes wish I had a small dumpy pickup so I could put bulk stuff in (and full 4x8 sheets), but mostly it's fine without. Related: my dad looked to replace his 92 Dodge Dakota, single cab, long bed (which was a great, functional truck) and could find absolutely zero similar size trucks out there (short cab, long bed, no ladder required to get to the front seat). You can probably design them on the manufacturer site, but no dealers will have them in stock.
- pengaru 7y ago
  Nice, ~1000lbs of sand in the back of an elantra gt must put it on the bump stops, no? I made a roof rack for my miata which attaches to the roll bar and windshield frame like the convertible top, it enables moving 4x8 sheets of plywood/drywall. I even moved a 305 gallon cistern using the setup without trouble, and a dozen 4x6x12' beams of douglas fir.
  - ndonnellan 7y ago
    I try to put 3 bags in the passenger footwell, and then distribute the rest as evenly as possible with the seats down. But yes, it's pretty close :-) I have to unload a few before I have clearance to back up our long driveway.
- tjr225 7y ago
  > Also, Home Depot rents trucks/vans for $30 for 75 minutes; U-Haul is better if you need them for the whole day. I had a good friend argue that this was too inconvenient. My response was that I believe the amount of effort put into affording a new truck far outweighs the inconvenience of filling out a form or two at home depot. > I sometimes wish I had a small dumpy pickup so I could put bulk stuff in (and full 4x8 sheets), but mostly it's fine without. Unfortunately even these are pretty sought after! I have a '94 Toyota Pickup(right before they rebranded them to the Tacoma) that I bought off of my father in law for pennies. In many places in the world these are cult trucks.
rjkennedy98 7y ago
I really appreciate articles like this that call out our how off the walls absurd American car culture is. As someone who bikes to work, almost everyone I've met that bikes has developed a deep hatred (and fear) of car drivers (whose sense of entitlement has gone off the rails). Biking to work, you will on a regular basis encounter drivers that yell at you, try to run you off the road, floor the car by you (even when there is a red traffic light ahead)
- thedance 7y ago
  Don't forget coal-rolling.
- samcheng 7y ago
  I've been yelled at by drivers while riding on a designated bike boulevard with my 4-year old son to preschool. "Get a car" - seriously?
  - c0nsumer 7y ago
    Yes. It happens. I've had the same yelled at me, and been cursed at and flipped off (middle finger) when: - Riding on a bike/pedestrian overpass going OVER an intersection. - Riding on a bike path that is separated by grass from and parallel to a road. - Waiting at a crosswalk light for my turn to cross an intersection (while traveling on a bike path). Cyclists are a frequent place for irrationally angry folks in cars to let out their anger.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- d1zzy 7y ago
  I've been biking to work >10 miles each way for about 9 years now and I understand where this is coming from: when an inattentive/careless driver cuts us off it feels as a personal attack, because if an accident happens the results are equivalent. This means it's natural to start feeling personally targeted when drivers do stupid things around us in traffic. But I'd caution letting our natural feelings drive our opinions. Not all drivers do those things and I suspect most of those that do have no idea of the danger or the threat they create. It's not malice so it shouldn't be payed back with hatred, especially not generalized to the entire driving population. All that does is to further the "us vs them" mentality which is already a huge problem when trying to make drivers understand how they should act around bikes, it's not helping.
zzleeper 7y ago
I just wish SUVs and pickups to be taxed proportionally to all the damage they cause, either to the road, or to others (higher accident rate with pedestrians and fatality rates), and that's besides the pollution.
jakearmitage 7y ago
What's the problem with liking big vehicles? To each his own. I love motorbikes. They are so cool. I don't need it, it is not practical for commute, it rains a lot where I live... yet I have one just to ride on weekends.
- macintux 7y ago
  The article lays out the problem at the end. The rest of us are paying to subsidize those big vehicles.
  - waiseristy 7y ago
    What because of vehicle weights? A Model X weighs the same or even 1500 lbs more than a modern F150. The fuel subsidy argument is bupkis, a 30% fuel cost difference is not going to have Americans switching to Ford Fiestas.
- waiseristy 7y ago
  HN has a huge hate boner for USA vehicle culture. I'd imagine the majority opinion is that one should ride a bicycle for any trip under 5 miles, public transit the rest. And if your arm is really twisted, buy the smallest, least expensive, and most efficient vehicle one can get their hands on. God forbid you like a vehicle with power, is fun to drive, or you have hobbies / activities which facilitate it.
  - bsagdiyev 7y ago
    I got told in a comment that I must be a dirty pollution loving asshole because I thought it was ridiculous I needed to take my car to a dealership to code parts to it (BMW locks some parts to the car via VIN check), so I hacked it myself instead to avoid paying $1k for the dealership to do it. As if that some how made any sense.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    I don't know if I'd put it that way, but the gist of what you're saying is right. I think a lot of HN commenters live in very dense urban environments, where riding a bicycle is a practical choice. Some of them unfortunately extrapolate this to everyone else on earth and then you get the "there's never any reason for cars" posts. Everyone's situation is different and many people live where they need a car to function. My commute averages about 2 hours each way by car. That would be 4 hours by bicycle according to Google Maps. Sorry, but there is nothing you can say that would convince me to spend 8 hours per day commuting by bicycle.
gamegoblin 7y ago
Back in 2018 I wanted a small beater truck when I bought a house (to move tools, lumber, garden stuff, etc). I was originally looking for a first generation Toyota Tacoma (later models are F150-sized), but was surprised that the 20 year old trucks were still selling for $12-14K. The lack of small trucks in the US is partially caused by bad regulation [1] that penalizes them (I am surprised the article doesn't mention this). I wound up getting a Japanese kei truck [2]. It was under $4,000 to import, title, etc. It gets 50mpg (4.7 liters/100km) and carries 880 lbs (400kg) in the 4.5x6.5ft bed (1.4x2m). You could use a large-ish garden shed as a garage if you wanted. It's really the perfect city utility truck if you are mainly a weekend warrior making trips to the hardware store, moving around plywood and tools, occasionally helping friends move apartments, etc. You can parallel park it damn near anywhere, turns on dime, and it's incredibly mechanically simple and easy to repair. Only thing it lacks is modern safety features (for regulation reasons, it's only easy to import and drive trucks > 25 years old in the US). The one marginally common thing it can't do that a large modern pickup can is tow a boat (kei vehicles are limited to 63 horsepower). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Sambar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Sambar
- Smoosh 7y ago
  Neat! My uncle here in Australia restored a Honda T500 to showroom condition. There should be more of these very capable little vehicles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_T360 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_T360
- csours 7y ago
  I'm a sucker for El-Camino-ized cars (replace the back with a bed, like the El Camino or Australian Utes); I'd love to have one of these turned into BEV with a little battery pack (ie Chevy Spark) for a daily driver and run around town vehicle.
  - jimmux 7y ago
    I rent out my small city car, and I'm considering getting a ute to rent out as well because the margins are better. I was shocked to find that the basic ute style that was so common when I used to live on farms is almost gone. I need to park on city streets, and dual cab is overkill. Relative fuel efficiency would be nice, too. The few I did find were lovingly restored classics with a surprisingly high price tag.
floren 7y ago
Small pickups, on the other hand, are fantastic. I've got a 2005 Ford Ranger. The bed is big enough that I've hauled drywall, lumber, flagstones, furniture, a dead elk... pretty much everything I've ever needed to move. But on the other hand, it's narrower than almost anything on the road today (barring compact cars of its own era and before), so it's easy to park. It's also got enough window visibility that I can easily keep track of each corner of the truck when I'm trying to park. It's got high enough clearance that I don't scrape the front when I pull up to the curb in a parking lot, and that I can drive down rutted forest roads without too much concern. I see a ton of little Rangers and S10s around town, but judging by how difficult it was to find my own, other people recognize how useful they are too! I think there are a lot of us who just want a small utilitarian vehicle, but when the Ranger was discontinued we lost that option in pickup format.
- lostapathy 7y ago
  It's a shame, really, that nobody makes small trucks in the USA anymore. Great vehicles.
  - slouch 7y ago
    I hope my 2010 GMC Canyon lasts the rest of my life.
    - csours 7y ago
      I have a 2016 Colorado and I have some buyer's remorse over not getting one of the previous generation. The interior is much nicer, and it's a better truck overall (imho), but it suffers from size inflation. Taller truck =/= better truck #iWorkForGM
      - slouch 7y ago
        ...and that's not saying much. I have to punch the ceiling for the dome light to work pretty often. Compared to the Subarus I was used to, the GM interior is cheap.
  - 7y ago
yellowapple 7y ago
There are some glaring issues with this article. > All of the benefits of driving big cars, as I have previously argued, are illusory. Literally only one of the points mentioned in this paragraph is actually mentioned in the linked article (and that point - about safety - is dubious considering that it in turn links to a NYT article that doesn't actually link back to any real data; said article pulls the "11% more likely to die in a crash" number out of its ass with no opportunity for the reader to discern what that number actually means or how it was derived). > The vast majority of people who drive them do not need the space or towing capacity nearly as much as they think they do Okay, well that's nice, but those of us who do need that space do need that space, whether you think we do or not. I was able to move myself from San Francisco to Reno entirely by myself (no moving van, no moving crew, not even family members' vehicles this time around) specifically because I owned an SUV and was able to fit large items in said SUV (including my couch - which does come apart, granted, but still would absolutely not have fit in a sedan), and thus able to move everything from one apartment to the other. Even that was stressful, and involved multiple trips; I would have had an even easier time if I had a similarly-sized van (of the cargo variety, or even a minivan if all the middle and rear seats are removable) or pickup. Yet, it was still possible. This same vehicle comfortably hauls myself and 4 passengers (and has done so a multitude of times, with passengers ranging from fussy nieces/nephews in car seats to coworkers to drinking buddies to grandparents and everyone and everything in between). Hell, it can do so even while hauling a bit of cargo in the back. It gets me to work and back. I can't speak to towing capacity since I don't tow anything (I don't even have a hitch, though I've been tempted to buy one). I know plenty of people who do tow with their SUVs, though. I also know that there are times I wish I can tow (for example: a trailer would've also helped with moving logistics). > they do not handle inclement weather better than a smaller car with similar technology—such as all wheel drive—which many have. This is patently false when you take ground clearance into consideration. I sometimes need to be able to drive through a foot (or more!) of snow, and would prefer to do so without my headlights being used as a snowplow, thank you very much. > In addition to the higher sticker price, owners of big cars pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars more every year in gas because the gigantic car is so much less fuel efficient. Hm, if only there was a drivetrain that used electricity from my house or a public charging station instead of petroleum. (Not that my SUV has such a drivetrain, given that it predates the relatively-widespread availability of electric SUVs by nearly two decades, but still) > SUVs and trucks are now so profoundly gigantic they no longer fit in the already pretty large suburban American garages constructed to store said cars. Clarification: some SUVs and trucks are too big to fit in garages. The author apparently lacks zero comprehension of the idea that there's such a thing as "mid-size" and "compact" SUVs and pickups, instead pretending that literally the only options are Canyonero-esque monstrosities. Has the author never seen a CR-V? Or a RAV-4? Or a Rogue? That category of SUV (a.k.a. "crossover" SUVs) accounts for more than 50% of the American SUV market. When those stop fitting in garages, then sure, go ahead and start punching that strawman again. The Ranger and Tacoma are also still reasonably-sized, though I'll admit they've grown a fair bit since the 90's/00's. > Large vehicles mean roads wear out faster and need more repairs "Large vehicles" being semi trucks, the author surely means. One semi causes the equivalent damage to a road as thousands of cars. The difference between a sedan and even a full-size SUV (let alone compact or mid-size) is negligible in comparison. ---- Like yeah, sure, I'm happy to mock the folks buying big SUVs and pickups to compensate for certain idadequacies, but if you could avoid throwing those of us who actually do need those capabilities under the bus that'd be great.
Waterluvian 7y ago
On this topic, I'm a single vehicle family with two toddlers. We have a Nissan rogue and are very happy. But I've been looking at possible upgrades in size as the kids get older and its stupid. First off, the Rogue is considered a "compact crossover" and yet it has far more cargo space than the Murano or Pathfinder. I don't get names. It's like cars are named like video cards. So confusing. Also, if I do want to go up in size, I have to go way up. And suddenly it won't fit comfortably in my garage. And it's annoying. I don't want a six cylinder engine. I don't want a tow kit. I just want a rogue with 20% more trunk so I can fit everthing a modern parent needs for a trip with two kids. Sigh. Is it minivan time?
- acheron9383 7y ago
  Hey, Minivans are great! Those bad boys fit an astounding amount of cargo, are easy to drive, and most are insanely reliable. You'd better just bit the bullet lol. --Edit: Plus cops never pull you over
  - Waterluvian 7y ago
    I can't help but feel like I'm buying a third row of seats that I take out and fill my garage with.
    - lutorm 7y ago
      Get one that stows them into the floor. Then you can rearrange your cargo space at a moment's notice.
- deleted 7y ago
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- JshWright 7y ago
  I love our minivan. It fits our family comfortably, and can haul anything I need it to (a full size sheet of plywood will fit flat on the floor in the back).
  - 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
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rv-de 7y ago
F'ck SUVs - I'd love to see a movement directly aimed at these embodiments of egotism and antisocial personality disorder.
m463 7y ago
The tesla cybertruck should be able to park itself. The tesla model s could pull itself into and out of the garage for almost 4 years now. (in regard to the original article)
kolleykibber 7y ago
Isn't all this down to marketing due to the chicken tax? (I'm not from the US)
Animats 7y ago
Even the once humble Jeep Wrangler has become bloated. First, Jeep came out with a 4-door Wrangler. That became a mommiemobile SUV for the Hummer 2 crowd. Then customers wanted more "luxury" - entertainment systems, power windows, sound-deadening, always-on Internet. Now the base Wrangler is over $30K, and hard to get without options you don't need.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  The 4dr Wrangler is a brilliant exercise in box checking. Husband and wife walk into the dealership wanting a new car. They're both now well paid and are looking to trade in the older of their two vehicles for an upgrade. One of them wants something more convenient for their new life in the suburbs, hauling around kids, etc. The other wants something fun, maybe sporty, maybe a convertible. The Jeep Wrangler lets them both compromise without compromising. It has two rows so it's great for kids. It's a convertible so you can put the top down. It's available with a manual. It has 4wd so it's good in snow. Etc. etc. No matter how disparate a couple's idea for what they want in a new vehicle odds are the 4dr Wrangler does a pretty decent job checking off things on their mental "must have" lists. Now, anyone who's actually driven the Wrangler long term knows that those benefits I just rattled off aren't as cut and clear in reality but you also know that you didn't figure that out on the test drive and that it's still probably a nicer vehicle than whatever it replaced. What I'm getting at is that having every possible feature known to man dovetails perfectly with this strategy of letting people buy the vehicle they want while also convincing their SO they're buying the vehicle they want.
lacker 7y ago
All of the benefits of driving big cars, as I have previously argued, are illusory. The benefit is pretty simple - they are bigger. I have a Prius and a Mazda CX-9 (somewhere from a mid-size to large SUV). I also have a wife and three kids. For daily use the Prius is fine, but if we go on vacation and there are 1.5 or so items of luggage per person, the Prius really doesn't work any more and we need to take the SUV.
baddox 7y ago
I'd like the article to provide an example of a modern stock vehicle that doesn't fit in a relatively modern standard garage. The article claims that American garages "tend to be seven or eight feet high." The article also mentions a women whose F-150 doesn't fit in her garage. The tallest 2020 F-150 I can find is 6' 6.5". I found a 2020 Silverado that's nearly 6' 8". Where are these unmodified trucks that aren't fitting in 7 foot garages?
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  The sliding overhead doors you find on typical residential garages don't open the full height of the door opening.
RickJWagner 7y ago
"....so you can haul dozens of cubic feet of air with your 3.5 liter V6 engine..." Hooboy. This author is not a car enthusiast. That's on the very small end of the big-truck power spectrum.
tchock23 7y ago
The biggest thing people I know with pickup trucks haul is their laptop to their desk jobs.

111 points by edward 7y ago

The next time you're driving on a highway in the U.S., entertain yourself by playing this game: count the number of pickup trucks (non-commercial) with empty beds, resetting to zero every time you spy one that's actually carrying or towing something. Try not to be surprised when you reach the triple digits!

shaneprrlt 7y ago
How could I possibly see what's in the bed from the driver seat of my Honda Accord?
- d1zzy 7y ago
  You mean you aren't driving your own SUV/truck? Get out of here! /s
addisonl 7y ago
How do you see into their bed unless you are also in a truck?
- Yizahi 7y ago
  If there is anything inside which doesn't stick out above truck sides then it can be carried in a regular medium sedan just as well. So count them as not carrying anything worth buy a truck for.
Gibbon1 7y ago
What gets me. For a while I owned a van as my only vehicle. I was only driving about 3000 miles a year. Then my company moved and I was driving 12000 miles a year. And I bought a used Prius. Because when I ran the numbers the van would have cost around $10,000/yr. Vs $4000 for the Prius. I see people commuting in full sized trucks all the time and I don't get it. It's 80 cents a mile when you add everything up.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  I'm sure there are alternatives, but If you spend a significant amount of time in your vehicle everyday, the size and comfort of the vehicle does come into play. For one, if you are a big person, either horizontally or vertically, a Prius can become less than comfortable. Also, sciatica and back issues can come into play. I know for me, sitting for too long in a small car keeps me folded a little too tightly to the point that my lower back will start to throb. Where sitting up and stretched out with a high enough seat to keep the bottoms of my thighs supported while feet are flat on the floor or at the petals makes a big difference for back and leg pain.
strikelaserclaw 7y ago
I moved to dallas from the east coast, i was quite surprised at how many people view having a pickup truck as some kind of status symbol (southern culture). Nothing like seeing a lifted pickup hurling towards you at 75 mph in your rear view mirror everyday.
- zip1234 7y ago
  And it seems every pickup in Texas has a brush guard on the front, making it even bigger.
  - msisk6 7y ago
    It depends on where you live in Texas, but you only have to hit a deer once to understand the utility of those ugly brushguards. My son ran into a deer with our beater Aerostar minivan awhile back it totaled it. Airbag went off and everything. Meanwhile I hit a deer with my Ram diesel pickup with a Ranchhand guard last week and no damage. So they do have some utility. ;) I do agree these trucks are ridiculous; if I didn't have a farm and the need to haul a large trailer I probably wouldn't have it. As it is we mostly drive my wife's Subaru when we actually need to go somewhere unladened.
    - dillonmckay 7y ago
      What model RAM?
- thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
  Yeah, it's really weird. I've always noticed that the top 3 best seller of vehilcles in the US were pick up trucks. and articles talk about them like their somehow aspirational. I've always thought of them as big, ugly and dorky: about as far away as cool gets.
- zerr 7y ago
  Another way to look at it would be - the person is not rich enough to own several types of vehicles therefore owns the most universal one.
barryparr 7y ago
You can also do this survey in a parking lot. For bonus points, check the bed liner for wear, which is a good indication whether they ever haul anything in their truck. Many are surprisingly pristine.
sjg007 7y ago
Pickups are the number one selling vehicle class in the US.
- baddox 7y ago
  According to what system of vehicle classification? I would have guessed crossovers to sell more, if that's considered a vehicle class.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Are we gonna count 5-passenger cars that only have the front row occupied while we're at it? Not having to use your vehicle to capacity at all times is one of the hallmarks of being at least middle class (at least in the US).
- BluePen7 7y ago
  And the lower class, a 4 door 5 seater sedan is what I drove when I didn’t have that much money. If I’d had more money, I could afford a coupe. And if I had more money still, I could afford a 2 seater sports car. An under utilized vehicle may be a hallmark of the middle class, but a desirable vehicle that is only exactly what you need at that moment is a hallmark of the upper class. On top of being more expensive, it’s also far more likely to be a secondary vehicle.
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  That 5 passenger car is going to use WAYYYY less gas then the mostly empty giant truck, while also being less of a risk to other drivers and not obstructing other car's view.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    Not as much as you think. 2019 f150 is rated 22/30 mpg. 2019 Honda Civic is 32/40. (Side note, a Prius will only get you to about 50) So you are going to spend 20-30% less on gas which, depending on how much you drive and gas prices, might amount to around $100/month. Then of course deduct the cost of a rental and the hassle and if you need a truck once a month, you are already about even.
- cafard 7y ago
  Outside of professional truckers--and we won't count the trip back to the loading dock--who regularly uses his vehicle to capacity at all times?
baddox 7y ago
While you're looking out for laughably low vehicle utilization, count the number of cars that only have a driver and no passengers.
tchock23 7y ago
Here is another game... Sit outside of a car wash and count how many of these supposed "utility" vehicles go through them. They're almost always spotless both before and after they go through...
giancarlostoro 7y ago
Exception's gotta be Orlando then, cause every other truck is full of tools and what have you, at least in my morning drives to work.
cafard 7y ago
I haven't driven much the last ten years, but used to find myself behind a lot of sports utes with a driver and at most one passenger. For the rest, they here hauling empty space, and I would fantasize about suggesting that they just get a sedan and a compressed-air tank.

arielweisberg 7y ago

Miata Is Always The Answer On a more serious note I have been watching YouTube car reviews for a while and eventually they get bored and start reviewing SUVs and CUVs. There is an internal capacity difference between wagons and sedans. Wagons and sedans lose internal capacity to drivetrain components because the body rises lower. Great for handling and efficiency. It becomes really obvious when you look at The Straight Pipes box test. That said just because the difference exists doesn’t mean people know or need it.

pengaru 7y ago
> Miata Is Always The Answer It really is http://pengaru.com/~vc/tmp/tank1.jpg http://pengaru.com/~vc/tmp/tank1.jpg
johnbrodie 7y ago
Miata is Always The Answer doesn't really nest well. You get a Miata, you turn it into a track/race car... Now you need a truck to tow it, can't really load a Miata onto a Miata, unfortunately.

avalys 7y ago

Article is written by someone who does not own a truck or SUV and consists mainly of him sneering in superiority at those who do. Aaron Gordon, whoever you are: mind your own damn business.

jefurii 7y ago
I support Aaron Gordon's right to express his opinions, which I happen to share. I also assert that people who buy and drive gratuitously huge trucks are polluting the atmosphere, which affects me and my family and which gives me a right to weigh in on this. [Note: I did not downvote you - that was other people.]
- caconym_ 7y ago
  Polluting the atmosphere, sure, but don't forget that their masses and geometries also put other road users in direct mortal danger to a degree that reasonably sized cars don't. It's almost funny how so many large SUV and truck owners actively project the attitude their vehicular choices imply: "I don't give a shit about anybody but myself."
- chrisan 7y ago
  In addition to not driving a truck did you also give up meat which is a far bigger harm to the environment?
  - jefurii 7y ago
    As a matter of fact I have given up eating beef (except for certain special occasions involving traditional family foods) and drinking cow's milk for this very reason. I also restrict my intake of pork, which is the next most environmentally-damaging food animal. I'm definitely not a vegetarian, more like a flexitarian.
    - chrisan 7y ago
      > except for certain special occasions involving traditional family foods Nice, we are trying to get there. Down to kike once or twice a month for red meat. Rest is vegetarian and chicken maybe twice a week.

thrill 7y ago

The rant at this link is mostly holier-than-thou word porn. Try visiting the referenced article instead for a slightly more informative piece: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2020/03/05/suvs-pickups-trucks-garages-parking/4904811002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2020/03/05/suvs-pi...

Someone1234 7y ago

Space requirements for families have also increased. Which is rarely discussed when talking about why more people are buying SUVs. Car seats are a legal requirement. Most take up more space than a fully grown adult and due to additional padding/side impact protection, keep growing. So a family that needs to fit three kids across, only really has the choice of SUVs or more expensive Minivans (the cheap/fleet tier Minivans cost the same as low end SUVs while being worse/outdated designs). So why do people buy SUVs? Higher ride means that more of the car's internals can be pushed out of the passenger compartment (particularly the rear seat/trunk) and they have a wider Axle track meaning longer seats. Which is conveniently exactly what car seats and strollers benefit from. Meaning they're great family cars. The continued rise in trucks is more due to the Crew Cab-style becoming functional, and them being used as a family vehicle as well as utility (e.g. moving, dump runs, DIY projects, etc). Without even trying to understand why people buy these vehicles, the discussion largely turns into moralizing. People have good reasons on a whole. They don't need to be using a Crew Cab truck exclusively for work for it to make sense, or an SUV for off-road adventures (most SUVs cannot off-road anyway).

triceratops 7y ago
> Space requirements for families have also increased. Wouldn't that be offset by the falling birth rate in the US? [1] > So a family that needs to fit three kids across The size of the average household or family hasn't appreciably increased or decreased since roughly 1985.[2] > People have good reasons on a whole. They're cheaper than anywhere else in the world, and people feel safer in them. They're reasons, but not especially good ones. 1. https://www.npr.org/2019/05/15/723518379/u-s-births-fell-to-a-32-year-low-in-2018-cdc-says-birthrate-is-at-record-level https://www.npr.org/2019/05/15/723518379/u-s-births-fell-to-... 2. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a-family-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a...
- Someone1234 7y ago
  > Wouldn't that be offset by the falling birth rate in the US? So because the birth rate is lower in aggregate, people with three kids don't exist? Or that they should need less space somehow? I don't understand the relevance to either the post you replied to or even the article itself. Seems like you're responding to a point nobody made, including yourself. > They're cheaper than anywhere else in the world, and people feel safer in them. They're reasons, but not especially good ones. Why did you even reply to a post when you're ignoring what it said? If you want to grandstanding about this topic, by all means reply to the thread as a whole. That's what top level replies are for. Why reply to a specific post if you have no interest in discussing that post's content or ideas? Nothing you replied to even came close to being relevant, I'm not even sure you read the post you replied to.

symfoniq 7y ago

I always preferred sporty sedans. But then I became a (relatively handy) homeowner and a father. After I got my pickup truck with a crew cab, I couldn't imagine not owning one, even though (as the title says) it barely fits in my garage. I work from home and drive maybe 6K miles per year, so the fuel costs and emissions aren't a significant consideration for me. But there's something in the bed almost every weekend, and even when there isn't, there's usually a kid or three in the back seat. If you don't have a family, or you automatically call a handyman when something breaks, I can understand why you might not want or need to own one of these magnificent vehicles. But for many of us, these trucks are carefully considered purchases that solve a lot of problems.

triceratops 7y ago
I don't know if everyone that hauls stuff absolutely needs a pickup truck. MMM literally builds houses from the ground up without using one.[1] 1. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-car-into-a-big-one/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-...
Ididntdothis 7y ago
I am not even opposed to pickups but the sheer size of a lot of them is just obscene. You could get most of the benefits from a much smaller pickup.
- floren 7y ago
  For years, the only option for an even slightly small pickup was the Toyota Tacoma, which is still pretty hefty. The newly-revived Ford Ranger looks like it'll be ok, but I haven't had a chance to get up close to one yet for a proper evaluation.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >the only option for an even slightly small pickup was the Toyota Tacoma, The only option for people who turn up their nose at GM. They've been making the Colorado/Canyon continiously since they EOL'd the S10.

davidw 7y ago

MMM's advice on trucks is sage: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-wo... In other words, you should have a truck if you're using it for work and drive it around loaded.

mseidl 7y ago
This is amazing.
lutorm 7y ago
I love that article! The image of him holding the huge drill press to drill a little hole in the plank so perfectly describes the situation.
blaser-waffle 7y ago
MMM is out of somewhere sort of rural though, no? Aside from the obvious financial angle -- which is correct, thems big fancy trucks are money obliterators -- there is also a personal axe to grind. And I get it, even as a dude that used to drive a truck. US truck culture is weird and kind of toxic.
- davidw 7y ago
  He lives in Longmont, Colorado, which has nearly 100K people. I think he mostly rides his bike for everything, and has some kind of electric vehicle for when the bike doesn't suffice.

Whatarethese 7y ago

There is very small subset of people who actually need an SUV or Truck. Most cars now days can comfortably fit 5. Most cars can fit 2 car seats with a booster seat. Most get them because they like to sit up high so they can see over traffic. That doesn't help when everyone else drives an SUV or Truck.

lacker 7y ago
I can get two adults and three kids into a Prius, and it works okay if we're driving somewhere ten minutes away, but we don't have enough room to include luggage for a family trip.
giancarlostoro 7y ago
It most definitely still helps. I drive a CUV, which isn't as tall as a SUV but I can properly see through the window of an SUV and see quickly when red lights from the car in front of him come on so I can start slowing down ahead of time.
bcrosby95 7y ago
When we had twins (and a 4 year old at the time) we tried to make do with a smaller car. Putting them all in the same row was disastrous once the twins hit around 1 year old. We couldn't go a trip without at least one of our kids crying most of the way. Now everyone is outside of hair pulling, biting, pinching, toy/book stealing, throwing, and spitting range. I guess my kids are just animals. It certainly seems to work for some parents. Maybe it will work out better when they're older.
- AdamN 7y ago
  Sounds like you need a minivan, not a truck
basch 7y ago
The nice thing about a truck is that the trunk is outdoors. Hose it off, car wash. It's kind of surprising Toyota doesnt have an outdoor edition of the 4runner thats basically the same thing but with a waterproof rubber back instead of carpet, and some kind of removable divider. Take the seats out and hose it down.

symmitchry 7y ago

The rise of the Platinum F350 as a luxury vehicle is something I wouldn't have predicted. It's crazy how much money people are willing to spend on an impractical vehicle like a full-size pickup. That being said, I really like big trucks. I guess it's selfish to want one, but I still do. Of course I don't live in the city, where it would be more hassle than enjoyable.

sjg007 7y ago
I mean I want a Suburban or Expedition... I mean I guess I could get a minivan too but having towing capacity for something I may never tow sounds good. :/
Gibbon1 7y ago
I've heard contractors complaining that they can't get cheap basic work trucks anymore. That was one of my thoughts about people complaining about non ones going to buy an electric vehicles because 'too expensive'. Have they priced a full sized truck lately?
slouch 7y ago
See also top-of-line Harley Davidsons above $40,000

doe88 7y ago

Corollary: it becomes more and more difficult to open doors and get out of vehicles in shrinking parking spots designed only few years ago (at least where I live in Europe).

ndonnellan 7y ago

I have been fitting a little under 1000lbs of sand / gravel in my hatchback (elantra gt) a few times this past week. It can also handle 10' 2x4s for short drives. Given than I only need that a few times a year, it's a no brainer. Also, Home Depot rents trucks/vans for $30 for 75 minutes; U-Haul is better if you need them for the whole day. I sometimes wish I had a small dumpy pickup so I could put bulk stuff in (and full 4x8 sheets), but mostly it's fine without. Related: my dad looked to replace his 92 Dodge Dakota, single cab, long bed (which was a great, functional truck) and could find absolutely zero similar size trucks out there (short cab, long bed, no ladder required to get to the front seat). You can probably design them on the manufacturer site, but no dealers will have them in stock.

pengaru 7y ago
Nice, ~1000lbs of sand in the back of an elantra gt must put it on the bump stops, no? I made a roof rack for my miata which attaches to the roll bar and windshield frame like the convertible top, it enables moving 4x8 sheets of plywood/drywall. I even moved a 305 gallon cistern using the setup without trouble, and a dozen 4x6x12' beams of douglas fir.
- ndonnellan 7y ago
  I try to put 3 bags in the passenger footwell, and then distribute the rest as evenly as possible with the seats down. But yes, it's pretty close :-) I have to unload a few before I have clearance to back up our long driveway.
tjr225 7y ago
> Also, Home Depot rents trucks/vans for $30 for 75 minutes; U-Haul is better if you need them for the whole day. I had a good friend argue that this was too inconvenient. My response was that I believe the amount of effort put into affording a new truck far outweighs the inconvenience of filling out a form or two at home depot. > I sometimes wish I had a small dumpy pickup so I could put bulk stuff in (and full 4x8 sheets), but mostly it's fine without. Unfortunately even these are pretty sought after! I have a '94 Toyota Pickup(right before they rebranded them to the Tacoma) that I bought off of my father in law for pennies. In many places in the world these are cult trucks.

rjkennedy98 7y ago

I really appreciate articles like this that call out our how off the walls absurd American car culture is. As someone who bikes to work, almost everyone I've met that bikes has developed a deep hatred (and fear) of car drivers (whose sense of entitlement has gone off the rails). Biking to work, you will on a regular basis encounter drivers that yell at you, try to run you off the road, floor the car by you (even when there is a red traffic light ahead)

thedance 7y ago
Don't forget coal-rolling.
samcheng 7y ago
I've been yelled at by drivers while riding on a designated bike boulevard with my 4-year old son to preschool. "Get a car" - seriously?
- c0nsumer 7y ago
  Yes. It happens. I've had the same yelled at me, and been cursed at and flipped off (middle finger) when: - Riding on a bike/pedestrian overpass going OVER an intersection. - Riding on a bike path that is separated by grass from and parallel to a road. - Waiting at a crosswalk light for my turn to cross an intersection (while traveling on a bike path). Cyclists are a frequent place for irrationally angry folks in cars to let out their anger.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
d1zzy 7y ago
I've been biking to work >10 miles each way for about 9 years now and I understand where this is coming from: when an inattentive/careless driver cuts us off it feels as a personal attack, because if an accident happens the results are equivalent. This means it's natural to start feeling personally targeted when drivers do stupid things around us in traffic. But I'd caution letting our natural feelings drive our opinions. Not all drivers do those things and I suspect most of those that do have no idea of the danger or the threat they create. It's not malice so it shouldn't be payed back with hatred, especially not generalized to the entire driving population. All that does is to further the "us vs them" mentality which is already a huge problem when trying to make drivers understand how they should act around bikes, it's not helping.

zzleeper 7y ago

I just wish SUVs and pickups to be taxed proportionally to all the damage they cause, either to the road, or to others (higher accident rate with pedestrians and fatality rates), and that's besides the pollution.

jakearmitage 7y ago

What's the problem with liking big vehicles? To each his own. I love motorbikes. They are so cool. I don't need it, it is not practical for commute, it rains a lot where I live... yet I have one just to ride on weekends.

macintux 7y ago
The article lays out the problem at the end. The rest of us are paying to subsidize those big vehicles.
- waiseristy 7y ago
  What because of vehicle weights? A Model X weighs the same or even 1500 lbs more than a modern F150. The fuel subsidy argument is bupkis, a 30% fuel cost difference is not going to have Americans switching to Ford Fiestas.
waiseristy 7y ago
HN has a huge hate boner for USA vehicle culture. I'd imagine the majority opinion is that one should ride a bicycle for any trip under 5 miles, public transit the rest. And if your arm is really twisted, buy the smallest, least expensive, and most efficient vehicle one can get their hands on. God forbid you like a vehicle with power, is fun to drive, or you have hobbies / activities which facilitate it.
- bsagdiyev 7y ago
  I got told in a comment that I must be a dirty pollution loving asshole because I thought it was ridiculous I needed to take my car to a dealership to code parts to it (BMW locks some parts to the car via VIN check), so I hacked it myself instead to avoid paying $1k for the dealership to do it. As if that some how made any sense.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  I don't know if I'd put it that way, but the gist of what you're saying is right. I think a lot of HN commenters live in very dense urban environments, where riding a bicycle is a practical choice. Some of them unfortunately extrapolate this to everyone else on earth and then you get the "there's never any reason for cars" posts. Everyone's situation is different and many people live where they need a car to function. My commute averages about 2 hours each way by car. That would be 4 hours by bicycle according to Google Maps. Sorry, but there is nothing you can say that would convince me to spend 8 hours per day commuting by bicycle.

gamegoblin 7y ago

Back in 2018 I wanted a small beater truck when I bought a house (to move tools, lumber, garden stuff, etc). I was originally looking for a first generation Toyota Tacoma (later models are F150-sized), but was surprised that the 20 year old trucks were still selling for $12-14K. The lack of small trucks in the US is partially caused by bad regulation [1] that penalizes them (I am surprised the article doesn't mention this). I wound up getting a Japanese kei truck [2]. It was under $4,000 to import, title, etc. It gets 50mpg (4.7 liters/100km) and carries 880 lbs (400kg) in the 4.5x6.5ft bed (1.4x2m). You could use a large-ish garden shed as a garage if you wanted. It's really the perfect city utility truck if you are mainly a weekend warrior making trips to the hardware store, moving around plywood and tools, occasionally helping friends move apartments, etc. You can parallel park it damn near anywhere, turns on dime, and it's incredibly mechanically simple and easy to repair. Only thing it lacks is modern safety features (for regulation reasons, it's only easy to import and drive trucks > 25 years old in the US). The one marginally common thing it can't do that a large modern pickup can is tow a boat (kei vehicles are limited to 63 horsepower). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Sambar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Sambar

Smoosh 7y ago
Neat! My uncle here in Australia restored a Honda T500 to showroom condition. There should be more of these very capable little vehicles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_T360 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_T360
csours 7y ago
I'm a sucker for El-Camino-ized cars (replace the back with a bed, like the El Camino or Australian Utes); I'd love to have one of these turned into BEV with a little battery pack (ie Chevy Spark) for a daily driver and run around town vehicle.
- jimmux 7y ago
  I rent out my small city car, and I'm considering getting a ute to rent out as well because the margins are better. I was shocked to find that the basic ute style that was so common when I used to live on farms is almost gone. I need to park on city streets, and dual cab is overkill. Relative fuel efficiency would be nice, too. The few I did find were lovingly restored classics with a surprisingly high price tag.

floren 7y ago

Small pickups, on the other hand, are fantastic. I've got a 2005 Ford Ranger. The bed is big enough that I've hauled drywall, lumber, flagstones, furniture, a dead elk... pretty much everything I've ever needed to move. But on the other hand, it's narrower than almost anything on the road today (barring compact cars of its own era and before), so it's easy to park. It's also got enough window visibility that I can easily keep track of each corner of the truck when I'm trying to park. It's got high enough clearance that I don't scrape the front when I pull up to the curb in a parking lot, and that I can drive down rutted forest roads without too much concern. I see a ton of little Rangers and S10s around town, but judging by how difficult it was to find my own, other people recognize how useful they are too! I think there are a lot of us who just want a small utilitarian vehicle, but when the Ranger was discontinued we lost that option in pickup format.

lostapathy 7y ago
It's a shame, really, that nobody makes small trucks in the USA anymore. Great vehicles.
- slouch 7y ago
  I hope my 2010 GMC Canyon lasts the rest of my life.
  - csours 7y ago
    I have a 2016 Colorado and I have some buyer's remorse over not getting one of the previous generation. The interior is much nicer, and it's a better truck overall (imho), but it suffers from size inflation. Taller truck =/= better truck #iWorkForGM
    - slouch 7y ago
      ...and that's not saying much. I have to punch the ceiling for the dome light to work pretty often. Compared to the Subarus I was used to, the GM interior is cheap.
- 7y ago

yellowapple 7y ago

There are some glaring issues with this article. > All of the benefits of driving big cars, as I have previously argued, are illusory. Literally only one of the points mentioned in this paragraph is actually mentioned in the linked article (and that point - about safety - is dubious considering that it in turn links to a NYT article that doesn't actually link back to any real data; said article pulls the "11% more likely to die in a crash" number out of its ass with no opportunity for the reader to discern what that number actually means or how it was derived). > The vast majority of people who drive them do not need the space or towing capacity nearly as much as they think they do Okay, well that's nice, but those of us who do need that space do need that space, whether you think we do or not. I was able to move myself from San Francisco to Reno entirely by myself (no moving van, no moving crew, not even family members' vehicles this time around) specifically because I owned an SUV and was able to fit large items in said SUV (including my couch - which does come apart, granted, but still would absolutely not have fit in a sedan), and thus able to move everything from one apartment to the other. Even that was stressful, and involved multiple trips; I would have had an even easier time if I had a similarly-sized van (of the cargo variety, or even a minivan if all the middle and rear seats are removable) or pickup. Yet, it was still possible. This same vehicle comfortably hauls myself and 4 passengers (and has done so a multitude of times, with passengers ranging from fussy nieces/nephews in car seats to coworkers to drinking buddies to grandparents and everyone and everything in between). Hell, it can do so even while hauling a bit of cargo in the back. It gets me to work and back. I can't speak to towing capacity since I don't tow anything (I don't even have a hitch, though I've been tempted to buy one). I know plenty of people who do tow with their SUVs, though. I also know that there are times I wish I can tow (for example: a trailer would've also helped with moving logistics). > they do not handle inclement weather better than a smaller car with similar technology—such as all wheel drive—which many have. This is patently false when you take ground clearance into consideration. I sometimes need to be able to drive through a foot (or more!) of snow, and would prefer to do so without my headlights being used as a snowplow, thank you very much. > In addition to the higher sticker price, owners of big cars pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars more every year in gas because the gigantic car is so much less fuel efficient. Hm, if only there was a drivetrain that used electricity from my house or a public charging station instead of petroleum. (Not that my SUV has such a drivetrain, given that it predates the relatively-widespread availability of electric SUVs by nearly two decades, but still) > SUVs and trucks are now so profoundly gigantic they no longer fit in the already pretty large suburban American garages constructed to store said cars. Clarification: some SUVs and trucks are too big to fit in garages. The author apparently lacks zero comprehension of the idea that there's such a thing as "mid-size" and "compact" SUVs and pickups, instead pretending that literally the only options are Canyonero-esque monstrosities. Has the author never seen a CR-V? Or a RAV-4? Or a Rogue? That category of SUV (a.k.a. "crossover" SUVs) accounts for more than 50% of the American SUV market. When those stop fitting in garages, then sure, go ahead and start punching that strawman again. The Ranger and Tacoma are also still reasonably-sized, though I'll admit they've grown a fair bit since the 90's/00's. > Large vehicles mean roads wear out faster and need more repairs "Large vehicles" being semi trucks, the author surely means. One semi causes the equivalent damage to a road as thousands of cars. The difference between a sedan and even a full-size SUV (let alone compact or mid-size) is negligible in comparison. ---- Like yeah, sure, I'm happy to mock the folks buying big SUVs and pickups to compensate for certain idadequacies, but if you could avoid throwing those of us who actually do need those capabilities under the bus that'd be great.

Waterluvian 7y ago

On this topic, I'm a single vehicle family with two toddlers. We have a Nissan rogue and are very happy. But I've been looking at possible upgrades in size as the kids get older and its stupid. First off, the Rogue is considered a "compact crossover" and yet it has far more cargo space than the Murano or Pathfinder. I don't get names. It's like cars are named like video cards. So confusing. Also, if I do want to go up in size, I have to go way up. And suddenly it won't fit comfortably in my garage. And it's annoying. I don't want a six cylinder engine. I don't want a tow kit. I just want a rogue with 20% more trunk so I can fit everthing a modern parent needs for a trip with two kids. Sigh. Is it minivan time?

acheron9383 7y ago
Hey, Minivans are great! Those bad boys fit an astounding amount of cargo, are easy to drive, and most are insanely reliable. You'd better just bit the bullet lol. --Edit: Plus cops never pull you over
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  I can't help but feel like I'm buying a third row of seats that I take out and fill my garage with.
  - lutorm 7y ago
    Get one that stows them into the floor. Then you can rearrange your cargo space at a moment's notice.
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JshWright 7y ago
I love our minivan. It fits our family comfortably, and can haul anything I need it to (a full size sheet of plywood will fit flat on the floor in the back).
- 7y ago

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rv-de 7y ago

F'ck SUVs - I'd love to see a movement directly aimed at these embodiments of egotism and antisocial personality disorder.

m463 7y ago

The tesla cybertruck should be able to park itself. The tesla model s could pull itself into and out of the garage for almost 4 years now. (in regard to the original article)

kolleykibber 7y ago

Isn't all this down to marketing due to the chicken tax? (I'm not from the US)

Animats 7y ago

Even the once humble Jeep Wrangler has become bloated. First, Jeep came out with a 4-door Wrangler. That became a mommiemobile SUV for the Hummer 2 crowd. Then customers wanted more "luxury" - entertainment systems, power windows, sound-deadening, always-on Internet. Now the base Wrangler is over $30K, and hard to get without options you don't need.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
The 4dr Wrangler is a brilliant exercise in box checking. Husband and wife walk into the dealership wanting a new car. They're both now well paid and are looking to trade in the older of their two vehicles for an upgrade. One of them wants something more convenient for their new life in the suburbs, hauling around kids, etc. The other wants something fun, maybe sporty, maybe a convertible. The Jeep Wrangler lets them both compromise without compromising. It has two rows so it's great for kids. It's a convertible so you can put the top down. It's available with a manual. It has 4wd so it's good in snow. Etc. etc. No matter how disparate a couple's idea for what they want in a new vehicle odds are the 4dr Wrangler does a pretty decent job checking off things on their mental "must have" lists. Now, anyone who's actually driven the Wrangler long term knows that those benefits I just rattled off aren't as cut and clear in reality but you also know that you didn't figure that out on the test drive and that it's still probably a nicer vehicle than whatever it replaced. What I'm getting at is that having every possible feature known to man dovetails perfectly with this strategy of letting people buy the vehicle they want while also convincing their SO they're buying the vehicle they want.

lacker 7y ago

All of the benefits of driving big cars, as I have previously argued, are illusory. The benefit is pretty simple - they are bigger. I have a Prius and a Mazda CX-9 (somewhere from a mid-size to large SUV). I also have a wife and three kids. For daily use the Prius is fine, but if we go on vacation and there are 1.5 or so items of luggage per person, the Prius really doesn't work any more and we need to take the SUV.

baddox 7y ago

I'd like the article to provide an example of a modern stock vehicle that doesn't fit in a relatively modern standard garage. The article claims that American garages "tend to be seven or eight feet high." The article also mentions a women whose F-150 doesn't fit in her garage. The tallest 2020 F-150 I can find is 6' 6.5". I found a 2020 Silverado that's nearly 6' 8". Where are these unmodified trucks that aren't fitting in 7 foot garages?

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
The sliding overhead doors you find on typical residential garages don't open the full height of the door opening.

RickJWagner 7y ago

"....so you can haul dozens of cubic feet of air with your 3.5 liter V6 engine..." Hooboy. This author is not a car enthusiast. That's on the very small end of the big-truck power spectrum.

tchock23 7y ago

The biggest thing people I know with pickup trucks haul is their laptop to their desk jobs.