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No visas for low-skilled workers, UK government says
- thbr99 7y agoCanada and especially Québec should do this too. Québec has a lottery system for visas. First come first serve. Rest of Canada has a points based system but is being played by low skilled workers.
- AndrewUnmuted 7y agoIt's funny, since the 'first come first serve' idea has been struck down in the US as being inhumane, and has been seen this way for decades by most of the people that work inside the American political system.
- Rafert 7y agohttps://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/immigrate-settle/permanent-workers/requirements-programs/index.html https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/immigrate-settl... mentions points?
- thbr99 7y agoThat points system is not followed at all. Québec immigration department is one such department in Québec which needs a thorough investigation on their practices and selection criteria. Low skilled workers from France is given undue priority in the name of language without any other employable merits.
- Sytten 7y agoI agree, I know some french people who can't get a visa in a reasonable amount of time (I would not wait for more than 3-4 months myself) despite being in a sector with shortages of workers. It makes no sense to me, especially from a government that pretends to be aligned with the needs of businesses.
- mattkrause 7y agoThe “global talent” thing is weird, in that the main website talks a big game, but the fine print reveals that it only covers a few very specific jobs. Neither my wife nor I qualified (PhD researchers in ‘hot’ fields) but video game artists apparently do.
- thbr99 7y agoQuebec's immigration system denies French citizen because her thesis had English in it. This is what happens in Québec immigration department. Red tape and mismanagement. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/french-thesis-immigration-caq-1.5351155 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/french-thesis-immigr...
- thescriptkiddie 7y agoWhy is everybody on here suddenly a fascist? It's like all of the hackers have been replaced with temporarily embarrassed unicorn founders.
- dang 7y agoCan you please stop using HN for ideological battle? You've done it repeatedly lately, and we ban such accounts. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and using the site in the intended spirit, we'd appreciate it.
- smnrchrds 7y ago> Québec has a lottery system for visas. Are you talking about the previous immigration framework or the new one CAQ has implemented.
- thbr99 7y agoThe truth is it's not implemented yet though they say it is. Anyone that I know of are still waiting on the Québec immigration department to process their files for the past one year in the regular skilled worker category.
- flukus 7y ago> Rest of Canada has a points based system but is being played by low skilled workers. Same in Australia, so many "skilled" workers that are driving taxis, driving uber eats, working in 711, doing tier 1 tech support, etc. It's a good idea in theory but the implementation is horrible, especially when there is high youth un/under employment. It get's even worse when you combine it with the "education" paper mill industry.
- cmdshiftf4 7y ago>Rest of Canada has a points based system but is being played by low skilled workers. It's not being played by low skilled workers. It's being played by wage suppressing mega-cops such as Tim Hortons and McDonalds and low skilled migrants from places like India are unsurprisingly jumping at the opportunity to get out.
- thbr99 7y agoThere was a Wendys recruitment drive in India some years back. The reason behind that was they could not find restaurant workers in Wendys Alberta. I find it very hard to believe they could not find local Canadian workers.
- lettergram 7y agoThis seems in-line with their motive for brexit - “UK first” It’s not really a surprise....
- craftyguy 7y agoI mean, did anyone really expect the UK to stop being xenophobic after they left the EU?
- Legogris 7y agoSounds like they took a lot of inspiration from Japan, where they have a "Highly Skilled Professionals" visa track with points for similar things, with the limit also being 70. For Japan, you still need to fulfill the requirements for e.g. normal work visa, but you get perks like preferential handling, shorter timed to permanent residency and getting visa for dependents. On another note, this is going to suck for "low-skilled" brits who want to move around the EU as I assume EU put some symmetry to this.
- jariel 7y agoThere is really no news here. Every nation has some kind of immigration policy and the vast majority of nations don't provide many visas for low-skilled workers. The example for the UK is Australia/Canada points system for regular migration, which is exactly what the US (or anyone else) would do were there some kind of meaningful reform to its system. Canada does provide quite a number of temp-worker spots, but it's in a different scenario than the UK, i.e. no need for swaths of workers in remote areas like the Oil-Sands. That there are no special status for EU citizens I think is fundamentally part of the negotiating position, and within a couple of years, my bet is that EU citizens get 'more points' than others for whatever kind of work and visa-versa. That the headline leads as 'No Visas for Low-Skilled Workers' I think is unfair as it's not representative of the reform, which on the whole is as to be expected.
- threeseed 7y agoActually Australia has a low skilled worker visa. It is called the 457 and it was abused so badly that it was abolished but still sort of remains. But during that time the government absolutely knew the extent of low skilled workers flooding into the country. All the parties loved it especially since Australia needed cheap labour to work at the 7/11 or drive Uber cars. We also abuse the living daylights out of backpackers who are forced to work in low skilled jobs e.g. picking fruits in order to qualify for a second round of the Working Holiday visa.
- theflyinghorse 7y ago> oil sands. The days of Oil Sands being an employment powerhouse are over. In fact there isn't much labour demand anywhere in Western Canada at the moment.
- undoware 7y agoWell, I know which way this is going to go. The pawns who built the structure of this economic game are the ones being cleared; and every chess player knows what happens when you run out of pawns.
- droithomme 7y agoNo problem with the actual best and brightest as long as they are paid in the 90th percentile of market wages. edit: based on the downvotes there's a significant number of HN participants who believe that the best either isn't the top 10% or fewer, or the best shouldn't be paid for their skills. Interesting.
- zelly 7y agoHN probably thinks you're implying that immigration decreases your wages, but that's not necessarily wrong. By basic economic theory, an increase in the supply of labor decreases wages. Eventually you get the situation in the U.S. where electricians and union garbage collectors make more than mechanical engineering PhDs, because they aren't importing more electricians the way they're importing engineers. It's one thing to make a moral or ideological statement on immigration, but it's another to deny the economic reality. Unless we change the way our economy works and how we allocate money, there is a finite amount of capital available to given sectors. Surely no one would argue with the extreme example, like what if every single adult in New York was a roboticist--how much do you think working roboticists in New York would get paid?
- nimish 7y agoOf course, the tier 2 system is already set up like this. The whole "points-based" talking point was always a canard. There's not a meaningful change (yet)
- jariel 7y agoThe points-based system is not a 'canard' and this is not a 'two-tiered system'. It's actually what it says it is: a 'points-based system' which is the modus operandi for most nations that have had reforms in recent history. Any nation that had to invent its migration scheme from scratch in 2020 would end up probably with something resembling this. In a mess of negotiations and unknowns during Brexit, this is actually one of the least surprising, predictable outcomes.
- nimish 7y agoIt’s a canard because it’s already been in place for over a decade and has had middling results. It’s still a pain in the arse to hire someone ex-eu with skills and the tier 1 HSMP path was closed (so you need a job offer). Anyone with actual experience with the home office and British immigration since the coalition knows that the “points based” slogan was hollow. It’s not like you trade away the job offer requirement!
- jariel 7y agoYou haven't in any way demonstrated how it's 'a canard'. It's been partially implemented, but 1/2 of migrants previously from the EU and that's obviously going away, to be replaced with a full points system. "Here is the new migration policy ... which is based on a modern points systems that other nations have", which is fully what is expected. So where's the 'canard'?
- nimish 7y agoThe whole political point of the "points based system" was that the UK _hadn't_ implemented one and was behind the times, and this was a constant refrain of people who hadn't ever looked into what kind of system the UK actually employs. In fact, since at least 2009 it has had one for non-EU migrants -- to middling effect -- and the new PBS is not significantly different except that it now applies to EU migrants.
- marta_morena 7y agoWell you can think of it what you want. One of the reasons UK left the EU is because of immigration concerns. Countries like Germany (my home country) are intent on preferring foreigners over their citizens and have an established agenda to "mix" the population. I am very glad not to live there anymore. It's part of the long-running denationalization attempt purported by the German government and it freaking works too. I never felt so "ungerman" in my entire life as the last 10 years have made me feel. It's like being "unwanted" in your country of birth. It's horrendous and very powerful. I would not move back there if someone paid me for it and also I try to shed German traits, just as they wanted. If this is good for Germany in the long run? Probably not.... And I am really really happy that I have the privilege of living in a country that puts their citizens first now. Anyone who says "they should take anyone" is delusional. But fret not, Germany is on a good track to assimilate entire countries worth of refugees into their own little speck of land, to the detriment of their citizens. No wonder the UK wants to put a stop to this insanity. I wonder when people will understand that you can't provide the living standard of Germany, US & Canada to the entire world. Yes most people live in terrible conditions. Getting them all here, won't help anyone. It's kindof ironic how "social responsibility" is used as an argument here. Sure, let's take all the refugees while we abuse their home countries resources, bomb their home towns and suck the life out of their economies. Cool strategy. If they had any spine and sense of humanity, they would help these countries to develop properly so refugees wouldn't exist in the first place.
- smnrchrds 7y agoOK, I have two questions: 1. What country do you live in now? 2. Don't you find it hypocritical to bash Germany for allowing immigrants in, while you yourself have benefited from immigration, being an immigrant and all?
- lawnchair_larry 7y agoIt’s not really immigration that people like the parent have a problem with. It’s cultural displacement. Presumably their new country is culturally compatible. Of course it’s not woke to talk about this, but very few people can practice what they preach when it happens at scale. Most folks that downvoted the parent and cry racism would be fine if a handful of ethnic minorities moved in to their neighborhood. But if they filled the entire neighborhood, and they were the last remaining white American family there, I guarantee they would instantly turn hypocritical and leave 99.9% of the time. Everyone has a threshold at which they no longer relate to or feel a connection with their community, and many people need that connection. That’s also why immigrants tend to form communities in their new country. It’s possible to feel this way without being racist.
- Osmium 7y agoUK citizen here. "High-skilled" worker, left the UK. Policies like this do not make me want to return.
- zkid18 7y agoCould you elaborate, please? The policy seems reasonable. I've experienced in Hong Kong and Japan.
- Osmium 7y agoSure. I don't think points-based systems are in-and-of-themselves unreasonable, in that there are good-faith arguments to be made in their favour. It's the undercurrent of meanness and xenophobia behind the policies that's more frightening to me. It's difficult to comment on this one policy without contextualizing what's happened to Britain as a whole over the last few years, and a lot of it has been pretty ugly.
- craftyguy 7y agoYou're a UK citizen, you don't need a visa. This policy has practically 0 impact on you.
- Osmium 7y agoThat's a very narrow lens with which to look at it. It matters a great deal when your friends, co-workers and communities would be affected by policies like this. Historically, the UK has benefitted immensely from its immigrant population.
- craftyguy 7y agoWell then pointing out you are a 'high skill' worker doesn't really add to the discussion, at all. Your original comment would have been much better if you had explained why (like you just did here).
- 7y ago
- mberning 7y agoPowerful economies plundering the world of intellectual resources is both a shame on one hand and an inevitability on the other. Unfortunately there is no perfect immigration system and competition between nations for resources makes these type of policies attractive.
- threeseed 7y agoUK is going to be in serious trouble because of this. (1) They already had a major shortage for low skilled workers to assist in agriculture and social care. And yes they have tried to raise wages and encourage UK applicants with little success. Given the lack of consultation with the agriculture industry I am guessing they are just going to let it wither and die. (2) Given how poorly the Home Office has treated EU citizens wanting to remain in the UK as well as scandals such as Windrush I can't imagine too many people trusting them to look after you over the long term.
- fiblye 7y agoThe number of countries with population growth large enough to serve as a stable supply of immigrant labor is shrinking by the day. The sooner we adapt our economies to operate without being dependent on an underclass of foreign workers, the better we can avoid actual serious trouble down the road.
- threeseed 7y agoUK had a massive supply courtesy of the EU and they benefited immensely from it. Now that it is going to dry up what is the long term solution for health and social care workers for example. You can't automate genuine human compassion and understanding with a DL neural net.
- ggm 7y agoNo visas for low-skilled workers, UK government says No takers from the UK nationals for low-paid jobs, UK workers say. Country dies from lack of telephone handset sanitizers.
- felipeerias 7y agoI lived for several years in the UK and it’s weird to think that nowadays I wouldn’t be able to do so. I first moved there to study a MSc degree, which I could afford because EU students paid the same fees as the British (and those fees were significantly lower then). Some time later, I came back to the UK because my partner was doing EU-funded research at a British university, while I continued working for an EU company remotely. I’m aware that mine is not the stereotypical immigrant experience, but I did meet a lot of Europeans that were similarly spending their best years in the UK. The British had something precious until not long ago: a working welfare state, a welcoming society, and an influx of enthusiastic citizens from all across the EU. It’s sad that they are throwing it all away.
- yocheckitdawg 7y ago> The British had something precious until not long ago: a working welfare state, a welcoming society, and an influx of enthusiastic citizens from all across the EU. It’s sad that they are throwing it all away. The British have many more precious things that that. They also have a rule of law determined by the BRITISH (NOT Brussels), responsive and accountable government (even though of course trade offs must always be made), and still have enthusiastic citizens from around the world banging at the door wanting to get in. As well as a dynamic and capable population of natives willing to bear the costs and risks of really changing their society in the 21st century. And they are still a welcoming society, them feeling they are in control again will make them more welcoming, not less. People counting out the UK yet are being very premature. There will certainly be economic pain from this and likely other costs, but there are potential big benefits too. Brexit is a story that will play out over the next 10-20-50-100 years, not just the next 5-10. Would not surprise me at all to find the UK a wealthy more developed nation than Germany by 2050. Even when you look at the Boris Johnson Cabinet, the ideas and intent that is emanating from there is very promising. No more "we can't do this because Brussels" or "nothing can be done". Real thought into how to make the UK remain relevant in the 21st century on its own terms, real efforts into how to improve the country. This isn't the End of History. This is the end of the insular old folks home the EU is at danger of becoming.
- 7y ago
- Archit3ch 7y ago> all migrants will only be entitled to access income-related benefits Can someone from the UK chime in and explain those?
- matthewheath 7y agoThese would be things like: - Housing benefit - Employment and Support Allowance - Pension credit Essentially, social security benefits which you are entitled to based on your income for the most part. If you earn below a certain threshold, you are eligible for these. Currently, EU migrants are entitled to access these on the same terms as UK nationals but that will be changing in the future to the same terms as non-EU migrants.
- Zenst 7y agoI wonder what percentage of these unskilled-jobs could be replaced by robots, though not all and in many cases, the cost, maintenance and running of a robot will not always be cheaper.
- MarkMc 7y agoBrexit supporters talked about creating a 'Singapore-on-Thames'. But in Singapore all construction work is performed by cheap, low-skilled men from South India who are given temporary work visas. So it seems that Britain is actually going in the opposite direction to Singapore in this regard.
- knolax 7y ago> 'Singapore-on-Thames' Talk about the irony.
- mouzogu 7y ago"People wanting to come to the UK from outside the EU will find rules are being relaxed" Yes because non EU labour tend to have fewer enforceable rights. I don't think this is about raising any thresholds, its more the opposite lowering the barrier for exploitation of low skilled non EU labour. At least in a business/financial sense.
- yodsanklai 7y agoI was just listening to Esther Duflo's talk. She addresses the issue of low-skilled immigrants. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1pZfFY132Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1pZfFY132Q I think she lacks nuance and leaves little room for debate, but still worth listening. Also we may not like it, but the UK is a democracy and the xenophobic sentiment of the population has to be taken into account in designing immigration laws. It seems politicians have failed at convincing voters that low-skilled immigration is actually good for them.
- amriksohata 7y agoThis will undoubtly cause a shortage in low skilled jobs which will increase their demand and therefore you will see a salary spike for those roles and maybe just maybe British natives actually bothering to take up the jobs they never wanted to do.
- oliwarner 7y agoLet's see what happens at next year's harvest. Farmers in the UK typically hire hundreds of thousands of seasonal unskilled labourers, with many crops (fruit, asparagus) having no mechanised harvest option. Farmers have already been struggling with shortfalls since the vote to leave the EU but this is going to kick them over the cliff edge. Tories get a lot of financial support from these land owners. Can't imagine they'll be too happy if their income rots away in a field.
- raxxorrax 7y agoThe UK now fines firms for "damaging online content". It holds a whistleblower that uncovered crimes of war in prison under conditions that are a dangerous to said inmates life. I am just glad they left the EU. The problems with their government can only be solved by the British themselves and the EU doesn't help here, nor would I want any of these developments jumping over to other countries. The need for low skilled workers is probably just for exploitation purposes. That seems to be the case in most instances. For now, the British and other EU countries are better off separated. Politicians have to answer the voters and they should have the last word on any visa or immigration debate.
- williamgrant 7y ago> The UK now fines firms for "damaging online content" Does Germany not do the same through NetzDG?
- raxxorrax 7y agoWell true, Germany should go too.