6 ms·

A document signed by a five year old, agreeing to be deported

74 points by FactolSarin 7y ago

james-skemp 7y ago
Is there any context to this particular item?
- nine_zeros 7y ago
  The context is that 5 year olds are being asked to read legalese and understand their rights to stay in this country. This is a small piece indicating how inhuman US immigration has become. An analogy would be a 5 yr old American kid being read Miranda laws and asked to sign a release while in front of a cop. Do you know a single 5 yr old who understands what this means? If this still doesn't sound brutal to you, I can't help.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - sjg007 7y ago
    This is illegal and unconstitutional. It is so bad that this is state sponsored child kidnapping.
    - inkeddeveloper 7y ago
      You're describing the current administration but here we are.
      - mindslight 7y ago
        The "current administration" is pulling the levers of brutally insane systems that have been around much much longer.
        NotSammyHagar 7y ago
        The us is committing crimes against humanity. If you are an american, as I am, then you are complicit. Separating children from their parents, asking 5 year olds to sign legally binding documents. This is just wrong and indefensible.
        masonic 7y ago
        Separating children from their parents The parents had already separated themselves from her months earlier. Policy is different for parents coming in together with their own children. Details are in the New Yorker article linked in an earlier comment.
        pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
        The legally binding documents would allow the children to leave US protection and go back to their country of origin to reunite with their parents. You are just wrong.
  - LinuxBender 7y ago
    A child can not consent to anything in a legal document. Perhaps they are taking advantage of people not knowing this.
    - casefields 7y ago
      You're wrong: https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/flores_v._sessions_practice_alert_final.pdf https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/flores_v....
      - LinuxBender 7y ago
        Allowing a child to participate in a hearing does not grant them emancipation as an adult. Teens are in court every weekday, all day in the U.S. Only a small fraction of them are granted emancipation as an adult and only for very rare and specific limited conditions. Could you please highlight the part that you believe provides emancipation for the child? In addition, to the best of my knowledge, a country can not provide legal emancipation for another countries citizen that is not under their jurisdiction. I am not a lawyer, but it sounds like one should step in here.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    It seems pretty unavoidably brutal, to be an unaccompanied minor who might not have a right to be in the country. It's obviously terrible to have 5 year olds make these kind of decisions, but would it be better if the government made them without asking?
    - mattkrause 7y ago
      In some kinds of proceedings, a guardian is appointed to advocate on the child's behalf. That seems much more sensible than asking the five year old directly.
      - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
        Agreed, but then that's where context is important. Was this document signed after some months-long process, or was it a preliminary thing while they were working on finding a guardian?
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        calmworm 7y ago
        The process was around 6 months long and the child was “4 and a half!” when it started... A 5 year old can not read/understand or legally sign a legal document. What kind of context would make this “okay”?
        mattkrause 7y ago
        Respectfully disagree. Paperwork "signed" by a five year ought to be meaningless in any legal situation and the judge should have laughed this out of court. If an adult says "write your name here" they're almost certainly going to do it. They're little kids! The one in question was offered crayons to color with afterward! Here's an article with more context: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-five-year-old-who-was-detained-at-the-border-and-convinced-to-sign-away-her-rights https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-five-year-old-w... In brief, the hearing is to determine if the person can be released on a bond (or parole) instead of being detained. In other words, this probably would have gotten the kid out much faster!
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - ghostoftiber 7y ago
    Other direction - in 1997 Bill Clinton was deporting people without process which is where this body of law came from. The standard practice was that children with adults would get a bond hearing (because adults could represent themselves and their children) but unaccompanied children were being deported OR they pretty much became permanent residents of the detention system. Then in 2017, they left limbo and have the right to be heard in a court: https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/flores_v._sessions_practice_alert_final.pdf https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/flores_v.... So... is a five year old expected to deal with their legal process? Yes, and they're appointed council to help with that, which is way better than where we were 20 years ago.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - james-skemp 7y ago
    Sorry for the confusion; I agree deportation policies are brutal, but I didn't see a reason why this particular item was just now mentioned on the site, since this has been going on for a while. At the time of my comment this was on page 2 from the home page, there were no comments, and no background info. I was hoping for a link to a news story on what made this relevant. As it was, there was no reason the title was accurate. Given disinformation campaigns, I thought it was valid to ask. Based upon another comment I understand why someone decided to share this.
  - Y-Bopinator 7y ago
    Your analogy is bullshit. You’re dumb, and your understanding of this is dumb.
  - anonsivalley652 7y ago
    America: like a tacky Los Angeles club where rich people and celebrities waltz in with half-naked women without reservations, while families dodging American-made cluster bombs and drone strikes huddle at the back of the line 10,000 miles away for years only to be told their paperwork isn't good enough and they're from a country that's now banned because of new religious purity tests, but here's a coloring book as a consolation prize. England turning away a boat of Jews in 1939 was an act of cowardice and evil, but diffusely, there are many more instances of this recently that pale in comparison. All I hope is that history looks down on the savagery, unkindness and inhumanity perpetrated on poor people all over the world with equal disdain, shame and disrespect for the pain, death and misery corporate-led military-industrial complex adventurism hath wrought. Solidarity now and forever, or divided we fall.
- benecollyridam 7y ago
  There is a link to a news article from the New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-five-year-old-who-was-detained-at-the-border-and-convinced-to-sign-away-her-rights https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-five-year-old-w...
  - james-skemp 7y ago
    Thank you! I pulled up the site again and am still not sure where the link to that is, so I appreciate the link. :)
RNase 7y ago
I agree to be deported from this thread, but I wish to keep the colouring page.
gamblor956 7y ago
A contract between an infant (i.e., someone under 18) and anyone else is binding...on the other party, and generally voidable by the infant.
sitkack 7y ago
Sorry Helen.
emptybits 7y ago
On contracts with minors (USA perspective): https://contracts.uslegal.com/contract-by-a-minor/ https://contracts.uslegal.com/contract-by-a-minor/
bookAlot 7y ago
Go home, baby!
jaimex2 7y ago
Whoever put this together is devoid of any kind of empathy. You can almost see the hatred. The all important future impacting page 1 is in English, Page 2 is mockingly in Spanish asking to colour in a symbol of freedom. They would torture and execute these kids if they could get away with it.
alephnan 7y ago
Is this the official doc? This one doesn’t have the coloring section? https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/orr/request_for_a_flores_bond_hearing_01_03_2018e.pdf https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/orr/request_for_...

74 points by FactolSarin 7y ago

james-skemp 7y ago

Is there any context to this particular item?

nine_zeros 7y ago
The context is that 5 year olds are being asked to read legalese and understand their rights to stay in this country. This is a small piece indicating how inhuman US immigration has become. An analogy would be a 5 yr old American kid being read Miranda laws and asked to sign a release while in front of a cop. Do you know a single 5 yr old who understands what this means? If this still doesn't sound brutal to you, I can't help.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- sjg007 7y ago
  This is illegal and unconstitutional. It is so bad that this is state sponsored child kidnapping.
  - inkeddeveloper 7y ago
    You're describing the current administration but here we are.
    - mindslight 7y ago
      The "current administration" is pulling the levers of brutally insane systems that have been around much much longer.
      - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
        The us is committing crimes against humanity. If you are an american, as I am, then you are complicit. Separating children from their parents, asking 5 year olds to sign legally binding documents. This is just wrong and indefensible.
        masonic 7y ago
        Separating children from their parents The parents had already separated themselves from her months earlier. Policy is different for parents coming in together with their own children. Details are in the New Yorker article linked in an earlier comment.
        pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
        The legally binding documents would allow the children to leave US protection and go back to their country of origin to reunite with their parents. You are just wrong.
- LinuxBender 7y ago
  A child can not consent to anything in a legal document. Perhaps they are taking advantage of people not knowing this.
  - casefields 7y ago
    You're wrong: https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/flores_v._sessions_practice_alert_final.pdf https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/flores_v....
    - LinuxBender 7y ago
      Allowing a child to participate in a hearing does not grant them emancipation as an adult. Teens are in court every weekday, all day in the U.S. Only a small fraction of them are granted emancipation as an adult and only for very rare and specific limited conditions. Could you please highlight the part that you believe provides emancipation for the child? In addition, to the best of my knowledge, a country can not provide legal emancipation for another countries citizen that is not under their jurisdiction. I am not a lawyer, but it sounds like one should step in here.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  It seems pretty unavoidably brutal, to be an unaccompanied minor who might not have a right to be in the country. It's obviously terrible to have 5 year olds make these kind of decisions, but would it be better if the government made them without asking?
  - mattkrause 7y ago
    In some kinds of proceedings, a guardian is appointed to advocate on the child's behalf. That seems much more sensible than asking the five year old directly.
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      Agreed, but then that's where context is important. Was this document signed after some months-long process, or was it a preliminary thing while they were working on finding a guardian?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - calmworm 7y ago
        The process was around 6 months long and the child was “4 and a half!” when it started... A 5 year old can not read/understand or legally sign a legal document. What kind of context would make this “okay”?
      - mattkrause 7y ago
        Respectfully disagree. Paperwork "signed" by a five year ought to be meaningless in any legal situation and the judge should have laughed this out of court. If an adult says "write your name here" they're almost certainly going to do it. They're little kids! The one in question was offered crayons to color with afterward! Here's an article with more context: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-five-year-old-who-was-detained-at-the-border-and-convinced-to-sign-away-her-rights https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-five-year-old-w... In brief, the hearing is to determine if the person can be released on a bond (or parole) instead of being detained. In other words, this probably would have gotten the kid out much faster!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ghostoftiber 7y ago
  Other direction - in 1997 Bill Clinton was deporting people without process which is where this body of law came from. The standard practice was that children with adults would get a bond hearing (because adults could represent themselves and their children) but unaccompanied children were being deported OR they pretty much became permanent residents of the detention system. Then in 2017, they left limbo and have the right to be heard in a court: https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/flores_v._sessions_practice_alert_final.pdf https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/flores_v.... So... is a five year old expected to deal with their legal process? Yes, and they're appointed council to help with that, which is way better than where we were 20 years ago.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- james-skemp 7y ago
  Sorry for the confusion; I agree deportation policies are brutal, but I didn't see a reason why this particular item was just now mentioned on the site, since this has been going on for a while. At the time of my comment this was on page 2 from the home page, there were no comments, and no background info. I was hoping for a link to a news story on what made this relevant. As it was, there was no reason the title was accurate. Given disinformation campaigns, I thought it was valid to ask. Based upon another comment I understand why someone decided to share this.
- Y-Bopinator 7y ago
  Your analogy is bullshit. You’re dumb, and your understanding of this is dumb.
- anonsivalley652 7y ago
  America: like a tacky Los Angeles club where rich people and celebrities waltz in with half-naked women without reservations, while families dodging American-made cluster bombs and drone strikes huddle at the back of the line 10,000 miles away for years only to be told their paperwork isn't good enough and they're from a country that's now banned because of new religious purity tests, but here's a coloring book as a consolation prize. England turning away a boat of Jews in 1939 was an act of cowardice and evil, but diffusely, there are many more instances of this recently that pale in comparison. All I hope is that history looks down on the savagery, unkindness and inhumanity perpetrated on poor people all over the world with equal disdain, shame and disrespect for the pain, death and misery corporate-led military-industrial complex adventurism hath wrought. Solidarity now and forever, or divided we fall.
benecollyridam 7y ago
There is a link to a news article from the New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-five-year-old-who-was-detained-at-the-border-and-convinced-to-sign-away-her-rights https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-five-year-old-w...
- james-skemp 7y ago
  Thank you! I pulled up the site again and am still not sure where the link to that is, so I appreciate the link. :)

RNase 7y ago

I agree to be deported from this thread, but I wish to keep the colouring page.

gamblor956 7y ago

A contract between an infant (i.e., someone under 18) and anyone else is binding...on the other party, and generally voidable by the infant.

sitkack 7y ago

Sorry Helen.

emptybits 7y ago

On contracts with minors (USA perspective): https://contracts.uslegal.com/contract-by-a-minor/ https://contracts.uslegal.com/contract-by-a-minor/

bookAlot 7y ago

Go home, baby!

jaimex2 7y ago

Whoever put this together is devoid of any kind of empathy. You can almost see the hatred. The all important future impacting page 1 is in English, Page 2 is mockingly in Spanish asking to colour in a symbol of freedom. They would torture and execute these kids if they could get away with it.

alephnan 7y ago

Is this the official doc? This one doesn’t have the coloring section? https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/orr/request_for_a_flores_bond_hearing_01_03_2018e.pdf https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/orr/request_for_...