29 ms·

The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

312 points by havella 7y ago

lr4444lr 7y ago
How much does the Roman Catholic Church have, especially when you appraise the artwork?
- wolfi1 7y ago
  it is also invested in large companies, allegedly even was invested in a company which produced birth control pills [1]. But, considering, The Mormons only exist for about 200 years in comparison to about 2000 years the $100B are impressive. [1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-23-mn-5234-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-23-mn-5234-s...
- NiekvdMaas 7y ago
  According to the article around 50 billion USD, so half the size.
  - xlqiwq 7y ago
    The catholic church has unbelievable real estate locations in Europe. The arch diocese Cologne has 12 billion in assets. If you count the real estate, it is easily at least 500 million per historic city in Europe. This is a rough estimate (area for 500 houses in absolutely top locations).
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  Can this artwork be sold ? Because its value seems to be derived only from insurance cost.
- geerlingguy 7y ago
  Note that the financial structure of the Catholic Church is vastly different; there's the Vatican, and hundreds (thousands?) of dioceses, then parishes (most dioceses treat their parishes as somewhat independent entities), and finally charity organizations like Catholic Charities in the USA (which are completely independent, financially). So it would be a lot harder to have a holistic idea of the financial health of the global Catholic Church.
- jawns 7y ago
  Do you know why the Catholic Church is the custodian of so much art? Precisely because it is understood that the artwork would never be sold. Many artists and other owners of art gave the works because they saw this custodial arrangement as the best way to ensure that the art would be around long after their deaths for people to enjoy. So yes, you can appraise the art and say it would be worth $X millions if sold in the open market, but that's entirely against the point of the Church being the custodian of the art. Think of it like a cemetery. That cemetery has a property value, and in a metro area it could be quite high. But the custodians of the cemetery wish to maintain it in perpetuity, and the people who have chosen that cemetery as their final resting place are counting on them to do so. Even if that property could conceivably be sold for a great price, that doesn't mean the cemetery custodians are rolling in dough, because they have committed NOT to sell. So if you look at the actual operating budget of the Vatican or any Catholic diocese, you will see that it is relatively modest. The so-called riches of the Vatican are generally things that can't be sold, borrowed against, etc.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
gigatexal 7y ago
Meh
elkos 7y ago
http://archive.is/sy1Ay http://archive.is/sy1Ay
DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
not bad for a group that believes in magic underwear, and that a giant space ship will safe them.
- tomrod 7y ago
  Former Mormon here. I'm scratching my head at what is construed as a Spaceship?
  - mythrwy 7y ago
    Maybe poster is somehow confusing the Nauvoo Mormon spaceship from The Expanse with official doctrine. (understandable mistake)
    - fit2rule 7y ago
      Isn't there an aspect of Mormonism that intends for its saints to one day rule their own planets? I find that kinda cool, honestly.
      - bg4 7y ago
        They ascend to become Gods which is somehow not contradicting the monotheistic aspect of Christianity.
        krapp 7y ago
        Christianity is only monotheistic in name, for "reasons." The Trinity would just be three separate gods in any other religion. Even classifying Father, Son and Holy Spirit as "separate divine aspects of a single God" is basically what Hinduism does, and no one argues that Hinduism is monotheistic that I'm aware of. Also, the way saints and angels have traditionally been regarded in Christian practice (particularly in antiquity, prior to Protestantism) is exactly the way other religions have regarded minor and household gods, or ancestor gods.
        7y ago
weare138 7y ago
What would supply-side Jesus do?
NiekvdMaas 7y ago
Mirror: http://archive.is/sy1Ay http://archive.is/sy1Ay
tomrod 7y ago
That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the finance clerk across several congregations and the analogue of dioceses--wealthy congregations would regularly see $25k/week from 200 congregants and have a budget of ~$8k annually, but this offset with congregations in less affluent areas). They also have massive economic influence over Utah, surrounding states, and often growing suburbs. They have a very diversified portfolio. As doctrine they take the second coming of Christ seriously and believe they will transform into the world wide government on his return. For the record I left several years ago, but have many family members still heavily involved. It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. [0] https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/morning_call/2014/03/farmland-reserve-own-2-percent-of.html https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/morning_call/2014/03/far...
- x1oqw 7y ago
  It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?
  - weare138 7y ago
    "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God." -Jesus Matthew 19:24
    - 2ion 7y ago
      "It is easier for a rich man to enter Heaven seated comfortably on the back of a camel than it is for a poor man to pass through the eye of a needle." - Supply Side Jesus, https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp
mythrwy 7y ago
Churches should go back to being churches. No reason a religious organization needs a 100 billion warchest. What they are planning to eventually do with it? Buy off my local pol? Buy Utah and secede? Never mind the advantageous tax treatment enjoyed. This disturbs me.
- wincy 7y ago
  They’re preparing for the end of the world. They call themselves “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”, and take that moniker seriously.
  - driverdan 7y ago
    That argument doesn't make sense. If TEOTWAWKI happens their investments will become worthless.
    - tomrod 7y ago
      They believe they will not only survive it, but become the world-wide government. The $100B in holdings are a small part of their assets. They have large real estate holdings (e.g. 2% of Florida) as well as a very diversified portfolio.
    - umvi 7y ago
      Latter Day Saints don't believe TEOTW involves the destruction of the world or even of world governments. Only the "wicked" will be destroyed at the second coming. I.e. Germany and the German government will likely still exist and operate for some amount of years after the second coming, but all wicked Germans will die off. The remaining Germans are all good people and will all eventually be converted to true Christianity (including good atheists) Nations will slowly be absorbed into Zion, a communist utopian nation ruled by Jesus Christ himself and the world will see unprecedented prosperity for 1000 years.
- Findeton 7y ago
  I would be happy if churches had exactly the same status as any other business. Nothing less, nothing more.
wincy 7y ago
So I’m officially a Mormon but am not a tithing member or active at all. I’ve asked some of my Mormon friends about this and their response is basically “well of course they are, how else would they build Zion in the city of Independence, Missouri?”. They’ve said that’s where the latter days will be spent a long time ago, and they’re preparing to make that a reality “when the time comes”. They have a form of socialism called the law of consecration that Mormon society will live under (I believe they might have lived like that in Salt Lake while initially settling there). My seminary teacher, the sweetest woman you’ve ever met, got VERY upset and yelled at me when I said that it sounded like Communism. It still sounds a lot like Communism, though. It’s truly amazing that they have 15 years worth of tithing for their members saved up. I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there.
- ravenstine 7y ago
  > My seminary teacher, the sweetest woman you’ve ever met, got VERY upset and yelled at me when I said that it sounded like Communism. Yikes. It sounds like part of her knew you were right but she was in serious denial. By "latter days", do you mean after the LDS version of the end times? I thought that the "Latter Day" in Latter Day Saints referred to the time period of Joseph Smith. Mormons, from what I understand, encourage each other to prep for the end time and even have a semi-official guide on how to do so(it's free and pretty good, actually). It makes sense to me that they would also want to amass as much resources as possible to eventually build Zion. > I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there. Now I know why virtually all the men in my Mormon friend's family and social circle were either surgeons or lawyers. Better be able to get by while also tithing 10%!
- codingdave 7y ago
  > It still sounds a lot like Communism, though. That is because it is, 100%. If your teacher freaked out over it, she is having trouble reconciling it with the American cultural meme of "Communism is pure evil.", which stems from the Cold War, not religious doctrine. And yes, something is off if a tithing LDS family is living on food stamps. I have had family who lost jobs and had no money, and the LDS church gave them food and money to cover bills, until they could get back on their feet. Such situations tend to be handled at the local level, and there are definitely good and bad leaders in all organizations, including churches.
blacklion 7y ago
I've found why anybody outside the church should care: «If the whistleblower’s claim is successful, that person could receive up to 30% of the proceeds collected by the IRS.» Meh.
- tomrod 7y ago
  Indeed, it is sad when people have to be motivated to report corruption such as tax evasion and other unethical behavior.
- cultus 7y ago
  They are stealing from everyone. Churches do not pay taxes. This is supposed to be contingent on not engaging in politics and actually acting like a non-profit.
  - Osiris 7y ago
    Some people might be able to claim coercion because tithing is required to participate in certain ceremonies, but I don't see how that's stealing (forced, against one's will).
    - cultus 7y ago
      I meant that it is stealing from the taxpayer.
thecrumb 7y ago
Now I understand those "Thank you Jesus" signs.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
Seems most churches are basically real estate companies. The same is said about the Catholic Church and Scientology. Even if they lost all of their members they could keep going forever.
- tomrod 7y ago
  This seems true regarding most old-school power brokers. Isn't the UK monarchy funded by the UK government renting land?
mattigames 7y ago
From a business perspective a religion is one of the best things you can start, it's free of taxes on most countries, it autoscales after convincing the first few people because it's now their (unpaid) job to convince even more; the demand is always there because most people have a biological innate fear of death/non-existence and just like with movies people crave a "happy ending", call it paradise, heaven or else; the best part is that the children of your believers are bound to be converted to your religion so there will be no lack of money donators on the long term, and is pretty easy to teach believers to denounce anyone that tries to convince them of leaving your religion as intolerant.
cultus 7y ago
I cannot fathom why churches are automatically tax exempt. Regular nonprofits have to jump through all kinds of hoops to prevent these kind of shenanigans. We are supposed to have a secular government. How is it that we single out this one class of institution for special treatment?
- kingkawn 7y ago
  A historical descendant of the compromises necessary to remove the Church and other such institutions from centrality to political power
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Religious orgs are a time-tested model for providing sustainable and widespread social cohesion, which is a huge positive externality and also protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression. The tax exemption seems obviously warranted on that basis alone, even abstracting away from any of the more visible charity work or social support that these orgs usually provide.
  - cultus 7y ago
    As a gay man, I can tell you that churches did not help protect me from oppression growing up. Quite the opposite. Your assertion about positive externalities seems highly suspect to me, and dependent on the institution. Charities also often have positive externalities, but they have far more regulation than churches. Again, why the special treatment? The social cohesion aspect of churches is gone at this point as well. That may have been true 50 years ago, but not today.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - dagmx 7y ago
    I'd definitely not agree with the "protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression" Perhaps if you are a member of the church, but definitely not if you don't abide by the exact, often conservative , rules of a given church. Look at slavery, equal rights for lgbtq and people of color, abortion etc. Not only do people in power use the churches to hide their personal beliefs behind, many churches use their power to oppress others. I mean the crusades were a thing... I'll agree churches provide social cohesion but often at the cost of tribalism against people outside that given churches norms.
xrd 7y ago
A prior discussion of Clay Christianson mentioned how he wouldn't play basketball on Sunday because it was the first small step that leads to larger steps (of sinning). This is a massive amount of money. I'm struggling to understand if this money was gathered under the tax exempt status of churches in the US. And if this isn't a bigger sin than playing basketball on Sunday, if you believe in sinning. Remember, downvotes are just like playing basketball on Sunday...
- themodelplumber 7y ago
  Yeah, the church isn't known for handling the "big picture" questions very well, ironically. Internally it struggles with the checklist syndrome (sports on Sunday is always on there; extrapolations to qualitatively odd outcomes of saving money like what to do when you have a hundred billion dollars in an embarrassing economy where your membership is far less well off than your legal structure--now these items don't fit a checklist as well) and even leadership has been taught by example (from the persecution era) to become emotionally withdrawn and defensive in response to criticism like your own, rather than taking a more circumspect and outwardly honorable, investigative stance. It's really unfortunate.
- rrss 7y ago
  Clay Christensen was referring to one of the Ten Commandments - "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." I don't think many religions count churches not paying taxes as sins. Incidentally, Christensen almost certainly contributed a rather significant amount of money to this sum, and likely would have said it would be a sin not to have done so. "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings"
  - tomrod 7y ago
    Note the irony that the scripture you quote was given to the priests, who were benefiting from the tithes and offerings of the nation [akin to the Mormon church giving luxurious homes to their General Authorities and plum book deals through Deseret Book], not the people themselves. Tithing got re-defined over the years. Consider: https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too...
DraftDodger67 7y ago
The Mormon fertility rate is only 1.73, so the proceeds are not even being spent to encourage fecundity within their community. The 10% tithe might even be such a burden as to discourage having more children.
foobarbecue 7y ago
Any way around the paywall?
calibas 7y ago
I was told that capitalism is supposed to be opposed to ideals like theocracy, monarchy and socialism, but look at the Mormons, the Evangelicals, Saudi Arabia and China, they're better at capitalism than most capitalists. And I'm not ranting against capitalism, I'm against this fairy tale idea that capitalism somehow magically brings freedom. Especially in America, it's become part of national pride, yet we've forgotten about boycotts and "voting with your wallet", so the system is largely directed by blind greed and powerful special interests.
- mistrial9 7y ago
  dramatically declining attendance and other factors, have led various Protestant churches in California to divest, divide or sub-let many family-oriented Church properties.. The LDS does not seem to be suffering from that.. so its not so simple as "for or against" .. there is execution and timing, and a lot of other factors
hpoe 7y ago
Many have been asking what the Church does with the money it has. The official response can be found here https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-of-jesus-christ-finances https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-of-j... In addition this is the official response of the Church in reply to an almost identical story that ran not too long ago https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-statement-church-finances https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presi...
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I bet there are some people in the background who make tons of money through contracts as suppliers . Seems this happens with most big non profits.
  - lotsofityetnone 7y ago
    You bet or do you know? Just sounds like you're accusing people without any proof.
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      I don’t know for sure but when I lived in DC I knew non profit people. They told me lots of stories about leadership giving contracts to their friends for outrageous prices. Where do you think all the money political parties or organizations like the NRA or Greenpeace are raising goes?
    - tomrod 7y ago
      It is a reasonable expectation given lack of financial transparency.
squarefoot 7y ago
"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion".
- tasogare 7y ago
  You can do both at the same time like Raël (Claude Vorilhon) did.
  - themodelplumber 7y ago
    I remember meeting some Raelians in Japan when I was a Mormon missionary! They had neat flyers. Major flyer jealousy.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    > You can do both at the same time Of course you can. Do you know whom that quote came from?
    - mindcrime 7y ago
      L. Ron Hubbard?
      - squarefoot 7y ago
        Yes, it's him.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
jbellis 7y ago
As an ex Mormon, I've read a lot about this. The single most useful piece for additional context that I've seen is this one by historian Kathleen Flake. https://mormonstudies.as.virginia.edu/2019/12/23/mormonism-and-its-money/ https://mormonstudies.as.virginia.edu/2019/12/23/mormonism-a...
- tylerchr 7y ago
  Though one-sided, that’s a well-reasoned and well-argued piece I had not seen before. Thanks for sharing it. Disclaimer: I’m an active Mormon.
Iwillgetby 7y ago
Question as a member. Would today be a good day to request that janitorial services be restored? Do I really need to clean the church's toilets once a year to get to heaven?
- themodelplumber 7y ago
  The cleaning is part of the church's treasured psychology of self-reliance, not just a money thing. In fact the money could be argued to have emerged from that self-reliance psychology, even if it's also true that a psychology can be emphasized within an organization or individual to a relatively pornographic degree (detached from current/realistic context). Plus they've been selling off buildings since they are such a maintenance suck. But still, it's an amusing thought and I see no reason not to try :D
  - tomrod 7y ago
    This seems like a post-hoc justification. The LDS facility services had several lifetime career workers they fired after implementing this policy, and the congregants rarely kept it as clean.
    - Iwillgetby 7y ago
      I thought the same thing. I played basketball on 100s of Saturdays in the 80s/90s and still think about the kind janitors that cleaned multiple buildings on Saturday. Many lost their jobs due to that policy change and it seemed like nobody realized the people lost their job because of it.
- shemnon42 7y ago
  You are more likely to clean up your kid's goldfish crackers they spilled in the pews (or not give them goldfish during worship service to begin with) when you take a turn vacuuming the chapel yourself.
- tzs 7y ago
  That's the thing I find most interesting about the Mormon church. In most other churches if you don't get into heaven your afterlife really really really sucks. They tend to be very binary--eternity in paradise, or eternity of inconceivable torture and torment. Mormon afterlife has four possible destinations: the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom, and the outer darkness. The Celestial Kingdom corresponds with heaven of other Christian sects. The outer darkness kind of corresponds to hell in that it is where Satan resides, but I don't know if it is a place to torment like it is in other sects. It's pretty hard to get sent to the outer darkness. It's for people who know that God is real, and choose to go against Him. Note that this does not include people that are told about God and do not believe--it is people who receive a personal revelation that He exists and still reject it. Those who are merely told about God and reject those teachings, but who were decent people get the Terrestrial Kingdom. Those who don't qualify for that because they were not decent, such as liars, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc., get the Telestial Kingdom. They are resurrected and given an immortal physical body. No torment or torture...the Telestial Kingdom is supposed to be a very nice place to live out your now eternal physical life. The Telestial Kingdom sounds acceptable to me, and I'd probably actually make it to the Terrestrial Kingdom if Mormonism turns out to be right. So what's the case to convert to Mormonism, or for people raised Mormon to stick with it? With the churches with the binary paradise/infinite torture afterlife, a Pascal's Wager type argument might work, even if I think there is a low probability that the church is right. With Mormonism, if I think that there is only a low probability that it is right, a Pascal's Wager approach can tell me to optimize for my mortal life. Even if I decide that some sort of Christian or Christian offshoot must be correct, if I narrow it down to a list that includes Mormonism and one or more of the eternal damnation sects, another Pascal's Wager like argument would tell me to pick one of the eternal damnation sects.
starskublue 7y ago
It's important to note the historical context around this. The LDS church used to be constantly in extreme debt and close to having their religious buildings taken away due to it. Then in the early 1900s they instituted a simple financial policy that could also be an example for members. 1. Spend less than you take in. 2. Save/invest a portion of what you bring in for a rainy day. Thus over a hundred years that builds up. I'm a Mormon and personally don't have an issue with it as I know that wealth doesn't go to church leaders (they all get the same stipend which for many is less than they made in their professional lives) and is simply fund available to the Church for times of need.
- annoyingnoob 7y ago
  I think having your members tithe is a big part of it. I know some wealthy mormons that have always given their 10%, at least that's what they tell me. I also know a couple of really large mormon families, like 12 kids large - they all tithe.
  - snuxoll 7y ago
    > at least that's what they tell me. Assuming the countless anecdotes on /r/exmormon are to be believed, nobody really gets a choice. Your local leaders will browbeat you and try to look over your financials if they don’t feel you are tithing appropriately.
    - mrosett 7y ago
      /r/exmormon has a very particular perspective, largely driven by the people who are active there are usually the ones who genuinely had the worst experience.
      - keiferski 7y ago
        This is pretty much true of any online community built around the opposition to something. People that had a positive or simply ‘meh’ experience don’t tend to spend time talking about it online.
toiletfuneral 7y ago
Mormoms also believe Jesus lives on a planet named kolob. Cool!
sturgill 7y ago
Can you imagine the criticism if the investment arm was losing money? The Church does amazing work providing resources during crises. I’ve personally cut trees off of people’s houses with chainsaws provided by the Church and given buckets of sanitation supplies when hurricanes swept through Florida. There is always a tension in “what do you spend now and what do you invest for later” but I honesty feel like the Church cannot win this argument. Those who are distrustful of organized religion can win if the church is poor (“why didn’t their ‘prophet’ know better”); if they’re rich (“why don’t they give to X”); or if they do nothing (“they teach their own members to save but don’t practice that themselves—the hypocrites”). I’m a believer so my view is not disinterested, but where is the conversation that they are conservative in their investments; won’t make money from industries they teach against; etc. There are very few people in the ecclesiastical arm of the church who work full-time and are provided a living stipend. And many of those people were very successful before leaving their professional lives. The current President (Russel Nelson) was a pioneer in open heart surgery. I’m pretty comfortable assuming he would have made more money in his life had he not accepted a calling to full-time ministry. To me this article is interesting but the reaction is predictable. People will read into the confirmation of whatever biases they had to begin with. For my part, I’d rather the church invest wisely than poorly...
- tomrod 7y ago
  > I’m pretty comfortable assuming he would have made more money in his life had he not accepted a calling to full-time ministry. Two comments. [1] The Mormon church is a corporation sole, meaning presently Nelson is the sole controller of all assets. He could reasonably set up his family for life with beneficial contacts and contracts. That is worth more than (now probably expired) intellectual property associated with open-heart surgery. [2] The leadership of the Mormon church tends to come from the same set of Utah-based families. Not 100%, but certainly a high representation. It's a social network that has been extractive on the work and labor of their membership for over a century, benefiting these few families greatly. This doesn't mean the organization hasn't done good -- it has. It's just that good doesn't blot out bad, nefarious, negligence, or other societal negatives.
  - 7y ago
mymythisisthis 7y ago
Churches shouldn't be allowed to amass money. It screws up the economy and politics.
anonsivalley652 7y ago
Meh. Moonies, Scientology and Catholic church are loaded too. Also, the IRS makes it too easy to run an Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption. Furthermore, tax exemption does actively promote religion by expressly discriminating in their economic favor. End tax exemption for magical thinking!
dropit_sphere 7y ago
Honestly you guys, we really don't care about the money, take it and fund another Uber or something if you can find a loophole that lets you do it, we live and breathe this stuff.
zmix 7y ago
One of my favorite passages from the New Testament is this: Matthew 19:16-30 New International Version (NIV)[1] The Rich and the Kingdom of God 16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. This is what comes to my mind each time when I hear about people, who call themselves Christians and their love for property. [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A16-30&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A16...
- daveFNbuck 7y ago
  This also says that you should leave your family. Do you think of this when you hear about people who call themselves Christians but love their family?
GlenTheMachine 7y ago
I'm an active Mormon, and I want to try to address a couple of the ideas being discussed on this thread. My purpose is not to change anyone's mind, nor is it to defend the LDS church in this particular case (actually I think they've got it quite wrong). Instead, it is to inform people what the culture of the church is like, and maybe if I'm really successful to help you understand how we can produce members like Clay Christensen on the one hand, and own 2% of Florida on the other. One thing to understand about the LDS church is that the leadership is drawn from the membership, but is really really not representative of that membership. In order to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the highest leadership body in the church, you essentially have to have spent decades serving full-time as a church leader at lower levels. This means that all the members of the quorum are old men (and yes, they are all men - that's another discussion). We have been accused - correctly - of being a gerontocracy. There are two implications of this. One is that on social issues, the church leadership lags the membership by at least a generation, usually two. Furthermore, the upper membership of the church leads by consensus, ideally unanimous consensus. It takes a long time to get more than a dozen people on the same page about almost anything, much less something like the theological implications of homosexuality (to name one topic of the day). This goes some way to explaining why the leadership keeps getting caught flat-footed when regarding issues of transparency, LGBTQ relations, race, and so on. They aren't the internet generation and it shows. But it has a second implication as well. Church leadership often remembers and understands church history completely differently than the lay membership does. In particular, for this issue, in the early part of the 20th century the church nearly went bankrupt. They ended up calling several people with strong business backgrounds to the Quorum of the Twelve, and one of those went on to become President. They managed to put the church's finances on a firm foundation. For obvious reasons, none of this tends to get discussed in Sunday School, and most of the membership of the church no longer remembers it. But the leadership most certainly does. In addition, it led to more and more church leaders having business backgrounds instead of pastoral care backgrounds, and as a consequence they tend to view achieving a good ROI on "the Lord's money" as being a primary good. I personally disagree, but it is what it is. Next, one thing to note is that none of the church leadership is personally getting rich off of tithing funds. The leadership draws a salary; that salary lets them live comfortably, but it isn't 7 figures. Nobody lives in a mansion or flies a private jet. So, then, why are they sitting on an enormous cash pile? In my personal opinion, it isn't primarily about the money. It's primarily about increasing commitment to the institution. Paying tithing is "faith promoting". It gives the membership skin in the game. They aren't just showing up to a church building for two hours on Sunday. They're actively participating in building the Kingdom of God. Of course, you can take the phrase "commitment to the institution" two different ways, depending on your going-in assumptions. For the faithful, building the faith of the membership is a primary good and indeed a principal goal of God. For the skeptical it looks like brainwashing with a nice side benefit of extra cash in the coffers. The next obvious question is, even if you're one of the faithful, and you assume that paying tithing is indeed a good way of building a faith community, can't they come up with ways of using the money that are more in line with Christ's teachings than buying up 2% of Florida? And I wholeheartedly agree. There are. And, of course, owning large tracts of real estate and a mall in downtown Salt Lake City and your own private securities investment firm don't make a lot of sense if nobody in the leadership is living like a sheik. So why not spend all of (or at least a lot more of) that cash on charitable works? Why not just go in and rebuild Haiti, or cure cancer, or something? And I honestly don't know. I go back to the leadership's business background and their recollection of the church nearly going bankrupt, and I can sort of see it... but then I read the Sermon on the Mount, and I can't again. I have to chalk it up to a lack of imagination, combined with a loss of pastoral care instincts in the church leadership. For what it's worth, I think it will change... eventually. The time constant of change in the LDS church is something like 20 years, so don't expect it to happen tomorrow. Finally, for those of you who have left the church and felt like it tried to take your dignity when you left, I'm sorry. My wife left, and that wasn't our experience. Your experience with the church is almost completely due to the culture and local leadership in your local congregation, and in a lot of cases that can be quite good, but it can also be fairly toxic if you're unlucky. I've experienced both, but more of the former. Of course, my experiences don't help you if yours are different. I hope you find your peace.
mistrial9 7y ago
Is this a deep, publicity lead to attacking the tax status of the LDS in the USA, as political retribution to Sen Romney ?
- tomrod 7y ago
  Only if we have a time machine that takes us back a few months: https://kutv.com/news/local/washington-post-lds-church-accused-of-stockpiling-100b-intended-for-charitable-use https://kutv.com/news/local/washington-post-lds-church-accus...
  - mistrial9 7y ago
    WSJ yesterday looks specifically like escalation, from here
- ciabattabread 7y ago
  The timing looks suspect. The tell is when the op-Ed page piggybacks on this.
ashton314 7y ago
Here is one statement that the Church of Jesus Christ put out about their finances, which addresses several of the complaints/questions posited here: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-finances-and-a-growing-global-church#questions https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-fina... I don’t see any incongruity with a church that teaches its members to save to likewise have a large savings fund. It’s not like they’re just hoarding money: the Church actively donates billions of dollars to world-wide humanitarian projects. For a religion that believes in the second coming of Jesus Christ and a worldwide crisis preceding that, it only makes sense for them to save so that they can continue to aid people of and not of their faith during that time.
- nabla9 7y ago
  > the Church actively donates billions of dollars to world-wide humanitarian projects. This is not true. Just tens of millions annually. Laughably small sum compared to $7 billion annually in tithes (in 2012). Insight: Mormon church made wealthy by donations https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-mormons/insight-mormon-church-made-wealthy-by-donations-idUSBRE87B05W20120812 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-mormons/insi... How the Mormons Make Money- How the Mormon Church Makes Its Billions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-mormons-make-money https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-m... >According to an official church Welfare Services fact sheet, the church gave $1.3 billion in humanitarian aid in more than 178 countries and territories during the 25 years between 1985 and 2010. A fact sheet from the previous year indicates that less than one-third of the sum was monetary assistance, while the rest was in the form of “material assistance.” All in all, if one were to evenly distribute that $1.3 billion over a quarter-century, it would mean that the church gave $52 million annually. A study co-written by Cragun and recently published in Free Inquiry estimates that the Mormon Church donates only about 0.7 percent of its annual income to charity; the United Methodist Church gives about 29 percent. They even use volunteer work for for-profit enterprises.
  - henrikschroder 7y ago
    Yeah, but you see, building that temple in Rome was just so much more important than actual charity work... I like how the Mormon church one-upped the Catholic church in this. The Catholic church sold indulgences, one-time absolutions for sin to fund their projects, but the Mormon church transformed it into a subscription service, for the low low fee of 10% of all your income forever.
neonate 7y ago
https://archive.md/sy1Ay https://archive.md/sy1Ay
jquery 7y ago
So the Mormon Church has created an endowment instead of corruptly spending the tithes on trifles and graft for their leaders, in preparation to help their members when needed and continue their operations in times of scarcity. I see this as a very smart thing, not nefarious. Not any more “scandalous” or hidden than the Harvard endowment. Mormons are well aware the Church uses its tithes to invest. Much of this thread’s comments are little more than ignorant and bigoted attacks on Mormons and Christians.
- tomrod 7y ago
  > Much of this thread’s comments are little more than ignorant and bigoted attacks on Mormons and Christians. Please call out such. I'm sure dang and the mods would prefer to keep bigotry out of HN. Especially if you are referring to my comments, I would like to be told where my expressions and observations are being perceived as bigotry. I love my currently Mormon family deeply and work hard to not push them away, despite their actions towards me.
  - jquery 7y ago
    Not you, I’m thinking specifically of certain comments that are using this thread as a thinly veiled excuse to attack Mormonism and even Christians in general. I’m not Mormon myself but I have Mormon family members and the openly upvoted bigotry disturbs me.
bensonn 7y ago
Is 100 billion really that much? The church has 16 million members. That is about $6,000 per member. The church has had 200 years of tithing and compound interest to get to this point. If used as an endowment to support 16 million people in 170+ countries that doesn't seem too crazy. A single human (not mentioning any names) having 100 billion seems crazy.
- tomrod 7y ago
  16 million members claimed, closer to 20%-30% attend, maybe 20% of that figure pay substantial amounts (excluding children, impoverished, most families are single-income homes due to Mormon doctrine, etc.)
- darksaints 7y ago
  $100 billion in one fund. $32 billion accounted for in other funds [0]. Not to mention 2% of the land in Florida, several billion dollars in commercial and residential real estate. Who knows what else they're hiding. And 16 million members is fools' accounting. It doesn't account for the millions of people like me who don't go to church and yet are still members because I don't want to pay money to hire a lawyer to force the church to take my name off the records. [0] https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks-says-new-documents-link-lds-church-to-companies-worth-over-32-billion https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks-says-new-documents-l...
  - ngngngng 7y ago
    > I don't want to pay money to hire a lawyer to force the church to take my name off the records. You literally just have to ask in writing. Send a letter to church headquarters in Salt Lake. But you already knew that didn't you? I swear ex-mormons are more devoted to getting people converted to their way of thinking than believing mormons are.
    - darksaints 7y ago
      No, sending a letter in writing is not enough. Not if you don't want to be tracked down and harassed with reconversion attempts, or for them to contact your family members and friends to rat you out. The only way that has remotely proven to prevent such behavior from the church is to have it done by a lawyer. But you already knew that didn't you?
metabagel 7y ago
I guess it’s really the First National Bank of Latter Day Saints.
gigatexal 7y ago
How is this on HN? And on the front page no less?
- tomrod 7y ago
  Hackers have a natural affinity for the structure of systems, be they behavioral/political or technological.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
Any discussion related to "church" funds makes me go back to a very interesting question: how much is the Catholic church worth today? I remember a while ago spending a few hours trying to dig some useful info. Of course there's not much online, and estimates range from 100s of B$ to something between 1 and 2 T$. Still credible. The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge wealth over the course of two millenia.
- giarc 7y ago
  >The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge wealth over the course of two millenia. Really? I thought it was pretty obvious. They literally pass around a plate and millions of people around the world are expected to put in 10% of their salary. In addition they have been around forever so have a vast collection of property and priceless art etc.
  - javagram 7y ago
    FWIW I don’t believe the Catholic Church teaches a “10% of their salary” tithe at all. Certainly not in the way some other churches do. The church in the USA receives funds from passing the plate, but European Catholic Churches historically receive their money from a voluntary church tax levied by the civil government, which is also not 10%. Most parishes I’ve been to in the USA publish their weekly offering and from those numbers it’s pretty clear people are not putting in 10% of their salary. Maybe 1%?
- javagram 7y ago
  Much of the estimated wealth is real estate (churches, schools, universities, hospitals) and artwork that should not be sold as it is being used for charitable or religious purposes or exhibited to the public. It’s hard to estimate since the “church” is composed of so many organizations. There was also a lot of excess wealth accumulated during the Middle Ages but I believe much of it was seized by governments over the last 500 years, varying from countries like France that even seized ownership of the church buildings to various dissolutions of religious orders and monasteries in other countries.
GnarfGnarf 7y ago
The Church gives back too. FamilySearch.org is a website with billions of names, where you can build your genealogy and collaborate with others who share your pedigree and provide you your ancestry from their own research. The website must cost millions to operate, yet is available for free.
- ashton314 7y ago
  familysearch.org is incredible. My previous bishop (a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ is essentially a pastor; bishops are unpaid volunteers) worked for Family Search in their engineering department. It most certainly costs millions to operate, and is being extremely actively developed. Last I heard they’re using machine learning to index obituaries from old newspapers so that people could find records of their ancestors more easily. Pretty incredible stuff. Try taking a look at Family Search. It’s so cool.
irrational 7y ago
Here is a related article from Forbes. https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2020/12/30/mormons-and-the-tax-law/#7c04e4351d2c https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2020/12/30/mormons...
heyguys 7y ago
dont care
doggydogs94 7y ago
You either participate in your church for theological reasons or you participate to be a member of a club. It seems like many of the negative commenters here attended church to be in a club.
paulie_a 7y ago
Mormons are heavily involved.im pyramid schemes and outright ponzis.
- dang 7y ago
  Please keep religious flamebait (not to mention slurs) off this site. Even if the OP is related and activating, that's an additional reason not to go there. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
kyrieeschaton 7y ago
Other ethnoreligious groups do this at vastly larger scale with surprisingly little publicity. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB894240270899870000 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB894240270899870000 https://www.jta.org/2009/10/27/united-states/jewish-charities-on-top-400-list-see-how-they-ranked https://www.jta.org/2009/10/27/united-states/jewish-charitie...
yters 7y ago
I'm Catholic, and I wonder whether it might be a good test of the divinity of the institution just to give away all the wealth accrued over the centuries. If it is God ordained, then it should survive in the same setting as it was founded, i.e. without any material goods. If not, then why bother with it?
tony 7y ago
I have LDS in my family, I have an anecdote just this week I was looking up genealogy of my family and found my Aunt already added my great grandparents back in Poland. The church runs the website and offers it free of charge (https://www.familysearch.org/ https://www.familysearch.org/), you don't need to be a member to use it. Another anecdote is Matz, creator of ruby is a member: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkh0gPf4Noc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkh0gPf4Noc Also they make really nice music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoqtX4YAIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoqtX4YAIY On the subject of churches asking for tithes and donations - I've seen various denominations do it and never felt odd about it. Back in my hometown, our church was the ones doing outreach to help the local homeless and getting them back on their feet (not the city or country, that's for sure). This was the early 90s though.
rachellogan5 7y ago
The specific dealings of the church aside, there are some seriously concerning philosophies coming out of all this. I wrote up a little something because I'm uncomfortable with the things I'm hearing members say. https://apathofmyown.com/saving-for-a-rainy-day-prosperity-and-the-gospel/ https://apathofmyown.com/saving-for-a-rainy-day-prosperity-a...

312 points by havella 7y ago

lr4444lr 7y ago

How much does the Roman Catholic Church have, especially when you appraise the artwork?

wolfi1 7y ago
it is also invested in large companies, allegedly even was invested in a company which produced birth control pills [1]. But, considering, The Mormons only exist for about 200 years in comparison to about 2000 years the $100B are impressive. [1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-23-mn-5234-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-23-mn-5234-s...
NiekvdMaas 7y ago
According to the article around 50 billion USD, so half the size.
- xlqiwq 7y ago
  The catholic church has unbelievable real estate locations in Europe. The arch diocese Cologne has 12 billion in assets. If you count the real estate, it is easily at least 500 million per historic city in Europe. This is a rough estimate (area for 500 houses in absolutely top locations).
johnchristopher 7y ago
Can this artwork be sold ? Because its value seems to be derived only from insurance cost.
geerlingguy 7y ago
Note that the financial structure of the Catholic Church is vastly different; there's the Vatican, and hundreds (thousands?) of dioceses, then parishes (most dioceses treat their parishes as somewhat independent entities), and finally charity organizations like Catholic Charities in the USA (which are completely independent, financially). So it would be a lot harder to have a holistic idea of the financial health of the global Catholic Church.
jawns 7y ago
Do you know why the Catholic Church is the custodian of so much art? Precisely because it is understood that the artwork would never be sold. Many artists and other owners of art gave the works because they saw this custodial arrangement as the best way to ensure that the art would be around long after their deaths for people to enjoy. So yes, you can appraise the art and say it would be worth $X millions if sold in the open market, but that's entirely against the point of the Church being the custodian of the art. Think of it like a cemetery. That cemetery has a property value, and in a metro area it could be quite high. But the custodians of the cemetery wish to maintain it in perpetuity, and the people who have chosen that cemetery as their final resting place are counting on them to do so. Even if that property could conceivably be sold for a great price, that doesn't mean the cemetery custodians are rolling in dough, because they have committed NOT to sell. So if you look at the actual operating budget of the Vatican or any Catholic diocese, you will see that it is relatively modest. The so-called riches of the Vatican are generally things that can't be sold, borrowed against, etc.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

gigatexal 7y ago

Meh

elkos 7y ago

http://archive.is/sy1Ay http://archive.is/sy1Ay

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago

not bad for a group that believes in magic underwear, and that a giant space ship will safe them.

tomrod 7y ago
Former Mormon here. I'm scratching my head at what is construed as a Spaceship?
- mythrwy 7y ago
  Maybe poster is somehow confusing the Nauvoo Mormon spaceship from The Expanse with official doctrine. (understandable mistake)
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    Isn't there an aspect of Mormonism that intends for its saints to one day rule their own planets? I find that kinda cool, honestly.
    - bg4 7y ago
      They ascend to become Gods which is somehow not contradicting the monotheistic aspect of Christianity.
      - krapp 7y ago
        Christianity is only monotheistic in name, for "reasons." The Trinity would just be three separate gods in any other religion. Even classifying Father, Son and Holy Spirit as "separate divine aspects of a single God" is basically what Hinduism does, and no one argues that Hinduism is monotheistic that I'm aware of. Also, the way saints and angels have traditionally been regarded in Christian practice (particularly in antiquity, prior to Protestantism) is exactly the way other religions have regarded minor and household gods, or ancestor gods.
        7y ago

weare138 7y ago

What would supply-side Jesus do?

NiekvdMaas 7y ago

Mirror: http://archive.is/sy1Ay http://archive.is/sy1Ay

tomrod 7y ago

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the finance clerk across several congregations and the analogue of dioceses--wealthy congregations would regularly see $25k/week from 200 congregants and have a budget of ~$8k annually, but this offset with congregations in less affluent areas). They also have massive economic influence over Utah, surrounding states, and often growing suburbs. They have a very diversified portfolio. As doctrine they take the second coming of Christ seriously and believe they will transform into the world wide government on his return. For the record I left several years ago, but have many family members still heavily involved. It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. [0] https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/morning_call/2014/03/farmland-reserve-own-2-percent-of.html https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/morning_call/2014/03/far...

x1oqw 7y ago
It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?
- weare138 7y ago
  "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God." -Jesus Matthew 19:24
  - 2ion 7y ago
    "It is easier for a rich man to enter Heaven seated comfortably on the back of a camel than it is for a poor man to pass through the eye of a needle." - Supply Side Jesus, https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp

mythrwy 7y ago

Churches should go back to being churches. No reason a religious organization needs a 100 billion warchest. What they are planning to eventually do with it? Buy off my local pol? Buy Utah and secede? Never mind the advantageous tax treatment enjoyed. This disturbs me.

wincy 7y ago
They’re preparing for the end of the world. They call themselves “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”, and take that moniker seriously.
- driverdan 7y ago
  That argument doesn't make sense. If TEOTWAWKI happens their investments will become worthless.
  - tomrod 7y ago
    They believe they will not only survive it, but become the world-wide government. The $100B in holdings are a small part of their assets. They have large real estate holdings (e.g. 2% of Florida) as well as a very diversified portfolio.
  - umvi 7y ago
    Latter Day Saints don't believe TEOTW involves the destruction of the world or even of world governments. Only the "wicked" will be destroyed at the second coming. I.e. Germany and the German government will likely still exist and operate for some amount of years after the second coming, but all wicked Germans will die off. The remaining Germans are all good people and will all eventually be converted to true Christianity (including good atheists) Nations will slowly be absorbed into Zion, a communist utopian nation ruled by Jesus Christ himself and the world will see unprecedented prosperity for 1000 years.
Findeton 7y ago
I would be happy if churches had exactly the same status as any other business. Nothing less, nothing more.

wincy 7y ago

So I’m officially a Mormon but am not a tithing member or active at all. I’ve asked some of my Mormon friends about this and their response is basically “well of course they are, how else would they build Zion in the city of Independence, Missouri?”. They’ve said that’s where the latter days will be spent a long time ago, and they’re preparing to make that a reality “when the time comes”. They have a form of socialism called the law of consecration that Mormon society will live under (I believe they might have lived like that in Salt Lake while initially settling there). My seminary teacher, the sweetest woman you’ve ever met, got VERY upset and yelled at me when I said that it sounded like Communism. It still sounds a lot like Communism, though. It’s truly amazing that they have 15 years worth of tithing for their members saved up. I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there.

ravenstine 7y ago
> My seminary teacher, the sweetest woman you’ve ever met, got VERY upset and yelled at me when I said that it sounded like Communism. Yikes. It sounds like part of her knew you were right but she was in serious denial. By "latter days", do you mean after the LDS version of the end times? I thought that the "Latter Day" in Latter Day Saints referred to the time period of Joseph Smith. Mormons, from what I understand, encourage each other to prep for the end time and even have a semi-official guide on how to do so(it's free and pretty good, actually). It makes sense to me that they would also want to amass as much resources as possible to eventually build Zion. > I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there. Now I know why virtually all the men in my Mormon friend's family and social circle were either surgeons or lawyers. Better be able to get by while also tithing 10%!
codingdave 7y ago
> It still sounds a lot like Communism, though. That is because it is, 100%. If your teacher freaked out over it, she is having trouble reconciling it with the American cultural meme of "Communism is pure evil.", which stems from the Cold War, not religious doctrine. And yes, something is off if a tithing LDS family is living on food stamps. I have had family who lost jobs and had no money, and the LDS church gave them food and money to cover bills, until they could get back on their feet. Such situations tend to be handled at the local level, and there are definitely good and bad leaders in all organizations, including churches.

blacklion 7y ago

I've found why anybody outside the church should care: «If the whistleblower’s claim is successful, that person could receive up to 30% of the proceeds collected by the IRS.» Meh.

tomrod 7y ago
Indeed, it is sad when people have to be motivated to report corruption such as tax evasion and other unethical behavior.
cultus 7y ago
They are stealing from everyone. Churches do not pay taxes. This is supposed to be contingent on not engaging in politics and actually acting like a non-profit.
- Osiris 7y ago
  Some people might be able to claim coercion because tithing is required to participate in certain ceremonies, but I don't see how that's stealing (forced, against one's will).
  - cultus 7y ago
    I meant that it is stealing from the taxpayer.

thecrumb 7y ago

Now I understand those "Thank you Jesus" signs.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

Seems most churches are basically real estate companies. The same is said about the Catholic Church and Scientology. Even if they lost all of their members they could keep going forever.

tomrod 7y ago
This seems true regarding most old-school power brokers. Isn't the UK monarchy funded by the UK government renting land?

mattigames 7y ago

From a business perspective a religion is one of the best things you can start, it's free of taxes on most countries, it autoscales after convincing the first few people because it's now their (unpaid) job to convince even more; the demand is always there because most people have a biological innate fear of death/non-existence and just like with movies people crave a "happy ending", call it paradise, heaven or else; the best part is that the children of your believers are bound to be converted to your religion so there will be no lack of money donators on the long term, and is pretty easy to teach believers to denounce anyone that tries to convince them of leaving your religion as intolerant.

cultus 7y ago

I cannot fathom why churches are automatically tax exempt. Regular nonprofits have to jump through all kinds of hoops to prevent these kind of shenanigans. We are supposed to have a secular government. How is it that we single out this one class of institution for special treatment?

kingkawn 7y ago
A historical descendant of the compromises necessary to remove the Church and other such institutions from centrality to political power
zozbot234 7y ago
Religious orgs are a time-tested model for providing sustainable and widespread social cohesion, which is a huge positive externality and also protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression. The tax exemption seems obviously warranted on that basis alone, even abstracting away from any of the more visible charity work or social support that these orgs usually provide.
- cultus 7y ago
  As a gay man, I can tell you that churches did not help protect me from oppression growing up. Quite the opposite. Your assertion about positive externalities seems highly suspect to me, and dependent on the institution. Charities also often have positive externalities, but they have far more regulation than churches. Again, why the special treatment? The social cohesion aspect of churches is gone at this point as well. That may have been true 50 years ago, but not today.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- dagmx 7y ago
  I'd definitely not agree with the "protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression" Perhaps if you are a member of the church, but definitely not if you don't abide by the exact, often conservative , rules of a given church. Look at slavery, equal rights for lgbtq and people of color, abortion etc. Not only do people in power use the churches to hide their personal beliefs behind, many churches use their power to oppress others. I mean the crusades were a thing... I'll agree churches provide social cohesion but often at the cost of tribalism against people outside that given churches norms.

xrd 7y ago

A prior discussion of Clay Christianson mentioned how he wouldn't play basketball on Sunday because it was the first small step that leads to larger steps (of sinning). This is a massive amount of money. I'm struggling to understand if this money was gathered under the tax exempt status of churches in the US. And if this isn't a bigger sin than playing basketball on Sunday, if you believe in sinning. Remember, downvotes are just like playing basketball on Sunday...

themodelplumber 7y ago
Yeah, the church isn't known for handling the "big picture" questions very well, ironically. Internally it struggles with the checklist syndrome (sports on Sunday is always on there; extrapolations to qualitatively odd outcomes of saving money like what to do when you have a hundred billion dollars in an embarrassing economy where your membership is far less well off than your legal structure--now these items don't fit a checklist as well) and even leadership has been taught by example (from the persecution era) to become emotionally withdrawn and defensive in response to criticism like your own, rather than taking a more circumspect and outwardly honorable, investigative stance. It's really unfortunate.
rrss 7y ago
Clay Christensen was referring to one of the Ten Commandments - "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." I don't think many religions count churches not paying taxes as sins. Incidentally, Christensen almost certainly contributed a rather significant amount of money to this sum, and likely would have said it would be a sin not to have done so. "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings"
- tomrod 7y ago
  Note the irony that the scripture you quote was given to the priests, who were benefiting from the tithes and offerings of the nation [akin to the Mormon church giving luxurious homes to their General Authorities and plum book deals through Deseret Book], not the people themselves. Tithing got re-defined over the years. Consider: https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too...

DraftDodger67 7y ago

The Mormon fertility rate is only 1.73, so the proceeds are not even being spent to encourage fecundity within their community. The 10% tithe might even be such a burden as to discourage having more children.

foobarbecue 7y ago

Any way around the paywall?

calibas 7y ago

I was told that capitalism is supposed to be opposed to ideals like theocracy, monarchy and socialism, but look at the Mormons, the Evangelicals, Saudi Arabia and China, they're better at capitalism than most capitalists. And I'm not ranting against capitalism, I'm against this fairy tale idea that capitalism somehow magically brings freedom. Especially in America, it's become part of national pride, yet we've forgotten about boycotts and "voting with your wallet", so the system is largely directed by blind greed and powerful special interests.

mistrial9 7y ago
dramatically declining attendance and other factors, have led various Protestant churches in California to divest, divide or sub-let many family-oriented Church properties.. The LDS does not seem to be suffering from that.. so its not so simple as "for or against" .. there is execution and timing, and a lot of other factors

hpoe 7y ago

Many have been asking what the Church does with the money it has. The official response can be found here https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-of-jesus-christ-finances https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-of-j... In addition this is the official response of the Church in reply to an almost identical story that ran not too long ago https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-statement-church-finances https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presi...

Ididntdothis 7y ago
I bet there are some people in the background who make tons of money through contracts as suppliers . Seems this happens with most big non profits.
- lotsofityetnone 7y ago
  You bet or do you know? Just sounds like you're accusing people without any proof.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    I don’t know for sure but when I lived in DC I knew non profit people. They told me lots of stories about leadership giving contracts to their friends for outrageous prices. Where do you think all the money political parties or organizations like the NRA or Greenpeace are raising goes?
  - tomrod 7y ago
    It is a reasonable expectation given lack of financial transparency.

squarefoot 7y ago

"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion".

tasogare 7y ago
You can do both at the same time like Raël (Claude Vorilhon) did.
- themodelplumber 7y ago
  I remember meeting some Raelians in Japan when I was a Mormon missionary! They had neat flyers. Major flyer jealousy.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  > You can do both at the same time Of course you can. Do you know whom that quote came from?
  - mindcrime 7y ago
    L. Ron Hubbard?
    - squarefoot 7y ago
      Yes, it's him.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

jbellis 7y ago

As an ex Mormon, I've read a lot about this. The single most useful piece for additional context that I've seen is this one by historian Kathleen Flake. https://mormonstudies.as.virginia.edu/2019/12/23/mormonism-and-its-money/ https://mormonstudies.as.virginia.edu/2019/12/23/mormonism-a...

tylerchr 7y ago
Though one-sided, that’s a well-reasoned and well-argued piece I had not seen before. Thanks for sharing it. Disclaimer: I’m an active Mormon.

Iwillgetby 7y ago

Question as a member. Would today be a good day to request that janitorial services be restored? Do I really need to clean the church's toilets once a year to get to heaven?

themodelplumber 7y ago
The cleaning is part of the church's treasured psychology of self-reliance, not just a money thing. In fact the money could be argued to have emerged from that self-reliance psychology, even if it's also true that a psychology can be emphasized within an organization or individual to a relatively pornographic degree (detached from current/realistic context). Plus they've been selling off buildings since they are such a maintenance suck. But still, it's an amusing thought and I see no reason not to try :D
- tomrod 7y ago
  This seems like a post-hoc justification. The LDS facility services had several lifetime career workers they fired after implementing this policy, and the congregants rarely kept it as clean.
  - Iwillgetby 7y ago
    I thought the same thing. I played basketball on 100s of Saturdays in the 80s/90s and still think about the kind janitors that cleaned multiple buildings on Saturday. Many lost their jobs due to that policy change and it seemed like nobody realized the people lost their job because of it.
shemnon42 7y ago
You are more likely to clean up your kid's goldfish crackers they spilled in the pews (or not give them goldfish during worship service to begin with) when you take a turn vacuuming the chapel yourself.
tzs 7y ago
That's the thing I find most interesting about the Mormon church. In most other churches if you don't get into heaven your afterlife really really really sucks. They tend to be very binary--eternity in paradise, or eternity of inconceivable torture and torment. Mormon afterlife has four possible destinations: the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom, and the outer darkness. The Celestial Kingdom corresponds with heaven of other Christian sects. The outer darkness kind of corresponds to hell in that it is where Satan resides, but I don't know if it is a place to torment like it is in other sects. It's pretty hard to get sent to the outer darkness. It's for people who know that God is real, and choose to go against Him. Note that this does not include people that are told about God and do not believe--it is people who receive a personal revelation that He exists and still reject it. Those who are merely told about God and reject those teachings, but who were decent people get the Terrestrial Kingdom. Those who don't qualify for that because they were not decent, such as liars, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc., get the Telestial Kingdom. They are resurrected and given an immortal physical body. No torment or torture...the Telestial Kingdom is supposed to be a very nice place to live out your now eternal physical life. The Telestial Kingdom sounds acceptable to me, and I'd probably actually make it to the Terrestrial Kingdom if Mormonism turns out to be right. So what's the case to convert to Mormonism, or for people raised Mormon to stick with it? With the churches with the binary paradise/infinite torture afterlife, a Pascal's Wager type argument might work, even if I think there is a low probability that the church is right. With Mormonism, if I think that there is only a low probability that it is right, a Pascal's Wager approach can tell me to optimize for my mortal life. Even if I decide that some sort of Christian or Christian offshoot must be correct, if I narrow it down to a list that includes Mormonism and one or more of the eternal damnation sects, another Pascal's Wager like argument would tell me to pick one of the eternal damnation sects.

starskublue 7y ago

It's important to note the historical context around this. The LDS church used to be constantly in extreme debt and close to having their religious buildings taken away due to it. Then in the early 1900s they instituted a simple financial policy that could also be an example for members. 1. Spend less than you take in. 2. Save/invest a portion of what you bring in for a rainy day. Thus over a hundred years that builds up. I'm a Mormon and personally don't have an issue with it as I know that wealth doesn't go to church leaders (they all get the same stipend which for many is less than they made in their professional lives) and is simply fund available to the Church for times of need.

annoyingnoob 7y ago
I think having your members tithe is a big part of it. I know some wealthy mormons that have always given their 10%, at least that's what they tell me. I also know a couple of really large mormon families, like 12 kids large - they all tithe.
- snuxoll 7y ago
  > at least that's what they tell me. Assuming the countless anecdotes on /r/exmormon are to be believed, nobody really gets a choice. Your local leaders will browbeat you and try to look over your financials if they don’t feel you are tithing appropriately.
  - mrosett 7y ago
    /r/exmormon has a very particular perspective, largely driven by the people who are active there are usually the ones who genuinely had the worst experience.
    - keiferski 7y ago
      This is pretty much true of any online community built around the opposition to something. People that had a positive or simply ‘meh’ experience don’t tend to spend time talking about it online.

toiletfuneral 7y ago

Mormoms also believe Jesus lives on a planet named kolob. Cool!

sturgill 7y ago

Can you imagine the criticism if the investment arm was losing money? The Church does amazing work providing resources during crises. I’ve personally cut trees off of people’s houses with chainsaws provided by the Church and given buckets of sanitation supplies when hurricanes swept through Florida. There is always a tension in “what do you spend now and what do you invest for later” but I honesty feel like the Church cannot win this argument. Those who are distrustful of organized religion can win if the church is poor (“why didn’t their ‘prophet’ know better”); if they’re rich (“why don’t they give to X”); or if they do nothing (“they teach their own members to save but don’t practice that themselves—the hypocrites”). I’m a believer so my view is not disinterested, but where is the conversation that they are conservative in their investments; won’t make money from industries they teach against; etc. There are very few people in the ecclesiastical arm of the church who work full-time and are provided a living stipend. And many of those people were very successful before leaving their professional lives. The current President (Russel Nelson) was a pioneer in open heart surgery. I’m pretty comfortable assuming he would have made more money in his life had he not accepted a calling to full-time ministry. To me this article is interesting but the reaction is predictable. People will read into the confirmation of whatever biases they had to begin with. For my part, I’d rather the church invest wisely than poorly...

tomrod 7y ago
> I’m pretty comfortable assuming he would have made more money in his life had he not accepted a calling to full-time ministry. Two comments. [1] The Mormon church is a corporation sole, meaning presently Nelson is the sole controller of all assets. He could reasonably set up his family for life with beneficial contacts and contracts. That is worth more than (now probably expired) intellectual property associated with open-heart surgery. [2] The leadership of the Mormon church tends to come from the same set of Utah-based families. Not 100%, but certainly a high representation. It's a social network that has been extractive on the work and labor of their membership for over a century, benefiting these few families greatly. This doesn't mean the organization hasn't done good -- it has. It's just that good doesn't blot out bad, nefarious, negligence, or other societal negatives.
- 7y ago

mymythisisthis 7y ago

Churches shouldn't be allowed to amass money. It screws up the economy and politics.

anonsivalley652 7y ago

Meh. Moonies, Scientology and Catholic church are loaded too. Also, the IRS makes it too easy to run an Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption. Furthermore, tax exemption does actively promote religion by expressly discriminating in their economic favor. End tax exemption for magical thinking!

dropit_sphere 7y ago

Honestly you guys, we really don't care about the money, take it and fund another Uber or something if you can find a loophole that lets you do it, we live and breathe this stuff.

zmix 7y ago

One of my favorite passages from the New Testament is this: Matthew 19:16-30 New International Version (NIV)[1] The Rich and the Kingdom of God 16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. This is what comes to my mind each time when I hear about people, who call themselves Christians and their love for property. [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A16-30&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A16...

daveFNbuck 7y ago
This also says that you should leave your family. Do you think of this when you hear about people who call themselves Christians but love their family?

GlenTheMachine 7y ago

I'm an active Mormon, and I want to try to address a couple of the ideas being discussed on this thread. My purpose is not to change anyone's mind, nor is it to defend the LDS church in this particular case (actually I think they've got it quite wrong). Instead, it is to inform people what the culture of the church is like, and maybe if I'm really successful to help you understand how we can produce members like Clay Christensen on the one hand, and own 2% of Florida on the other. One thing to understand about the LDS church is that the leadership is drawn from the membership, but is really really not representative of that membership. In order to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the highest leadership body in the church, you essentially have to have spent decades serving full-time as a church leader at lower levels. This means that all the members of the quorum are old men (and yes, they are all men - that's another discussion). We have been accused - correctly - of being a gerontocracy. There are two implications of this. One is that on social issues, the church leadership lags the membership by at least a generation, usually two. Furthermore, the upper membership of the church leads by consensus, ideally unanimous consensus. It takes a long time to get more than a dozen people on the same page about almost anything, much less something like the theological implications of homosexuality (to name one topic of the day). This goes some way to explaining why the leadership keeps getting caught flat-footed when regarding issues of transparency, LGBTQ relations, race, and so on. They aren't the internet generation and it shows. But it has a second implication as well. Church leadership often remembers and understands church history completely differently than the lay membership does. In particular, for this issue, in the early part of the 20th century the church nearly went bankrupt. They ended up calling several people with strong business backgrounds to the Quorum of the Twelve, and one of those went on to become President. They managed to put the church's finances on a firm foundation. For obvious reasons, none of this tends to get discussed in Sunday School, and most of the membership of the church no longer remembers it. But the leadership most certainly does. In addition, it led to more and more church leaders having business backgrounds instead of pastoral care backgrounds, and as a consequence they tend to view achieving a good ROI on "the Lord's money" as being a primary good. I personally disagree, but it is what it is. Next, one thing to note is that none of the church leadership is personally getting rich off of tithing funds. The leadership draws a salary; that salary lets them live comfortably, but it isn't 7 figures. Nobody lives in a mansion or flies a private jet. So, then, why are they sitting on an enormous cash pile? In my personal opinion, it isn't primarily about the money. It's primarily about increasing commitment to the institution. Paying tithing is "faith promoting". It gives the membership skin in the game. They aren't just showing up to a church building for two hours on Sunday. They're actively participating in building the Kingdom of God. Of course, you can take the phrase "commitment to the institution" two different ways, depending on your going-in assumptions. For the faithful, building the faith of the membership is a primary good and indeed a principal goal of God. For the skeptical it looks like brainwashing with a nice side benefit of extra cash in the coffers. The next obvious question is, even if you're one of the faithful, and you assume that paying tithing is indeed a good way of building a faith community, can't they come up with ways of using the money that are more in line with Christ's teachings than buying up 2% of Florida? And I wholeheartedly agree. There are. And, of course, owning large tracts of real estate and a mall in downtown Salt Lake City and your own private securities investment firm don't make a lot of sense if nobody in the leadership is living like a sheik. So why not spend all of (or at least a lot more of) that cash on charitable works? Why not just go in and rebuild Haiti, or cure cancer, or something? And I honestly don't know. I go back to the leadership's business background and their recollection of the church nearly going bankrupt, and I can sort of see it... but then I read the Sermon on the Mount, and I can't again. I have to chalk it up to a lack of imagination, combined with a loss of pastoral care instincts in the church leadership. For what it's worth, I think it will change... eventually. The time constant of change in the LDS church is something like 20 years, so don't expect it to happen tomorrow. Finally, for those of you who have left the church and felt like it tried to take your dignity when you left, I'm sorry. My wife left, and that wasn't our experience. Your experience with the church is almost completely due to the culture and local leadership in your local congregation, and in a lot of cases that can be quite good, but it can also be fairly toxic if you're unlucky. I've experienced both, but more of the former. Of course, my experiences don't help you if yours are different. I hope you find your peace.

mistrial9 7y ago

Is this a deep, publicity lead to attacking the tax status of the LDS in the USA, as political retribution to Sen Romney ?

tomrod 7y ago
Only if we have a time machine that takes us back a few months: https://kutv.com/news/local/washington-post-lds-church-accused-of-stockpiling-100b-intended-for-charitable-use https://kutv.com/news/local/washington-post-lds-church-accus...
- mistrial9 7y ago
  WSJ yesterday looks specifically like escalation, from here
ciabattabread 7y ago
The timing looks suspect. The tell is when the op-Ed page piggybacks on this.

ashton314 7y ago

Here is one statement that the Church of Jesus Christ put out about their finances, which addresses several of the complaints/questions posited here: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-finances-and-a-growing-global-church#questions https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-fina... I don’t see any incongruity with a church that teaches its members to save to likewise have a large savings fund. It’s not like they’re just hoarding money: the Church actively donates billions of dollars to world-wide humanitarian projects. For a religion that believes in the second coming of Jesus Christ and a worldwide crisis preceding that, it only makes sense for them to save so that they can continue to aid people of and not of their faith during that time.

nabla9 7y ago
> the Church actively donates billions of dollars to world-wide humanitarian projects. This is not true. Just tens of millions annually. Laughably small sum compared to $7 billion annually in tithes (in 2012). Insight: Mormon church made wealthy by donations https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-mormons/insight-mormon-church-made-wealthy-by-donations-idUSBRE87B05W20120812 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-mormons/insi... How the Mormons Make Money- How the Mormon Church Makes Its Billions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-mormons-make-money https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-m... >According to an official church Welfare Services fact sheet, the church gave $1.3 billion in humanitarian aid in more than 178 countries and territories during the 25 years between 1985 and 2010. A fact sheet from the previous year indicates that less than one-third of the sum was monetary assistance, while the rest was in the form of “material assistance.” All in all, if one were to evenly distribute that $1.3 billion over a quarter-century, it would mean that the church gave $52 million annually. A study co-written by Cragun and recently published in Free Inquiry estimates that the Mormon Church donates only about 0.7 percent of its annual income to charity; the United Methodist Church gives about 29 percent. They even use volunteer work for for-profit enterprises.
- henrikschroder 7y ago
  Yeah, but you see, building that temple in Rome was just so much more important than actual charity work... I like how the Mormon church one-upped the Catholic church in this. The Catholic church sold indulgences, one-time absolutions for sin to fund their projects, but the Mormon church transformed it into a subscription service, for the low low fee of 10% of all your income forever.

neonate 7y ago

https://archive.md/sy1Ay https://archive.md/sy1Ay

jquery 7y ago

So the Mormon Church has created an endowment instead of corruptly spending the tithes on trifles and graft for their leaders, in preparation to help their members when needed and continue their operations in times of scarcity. I see this as a very smart thing, not nefarious. Not any more “scandalous” or hidden than the Harvard endowment. Mormons are well aware the Church uses its tithes to invest. Much of this thread’s comments are little more than ignorant and bigoted attacks on Mormons and Christians.

tomrod 7y ago
> Much of this thread’s comments are little more than ignorant and bigoted attacks on Mormons and Christians. Please call out such. I'm sure dang and the mods would prefer to keep bigotry out of HN. Especially if you are referring to my comments, I would like to be told where my expressions and observations are being perceived as bigotry. I love my currently Mormon family deeply and work hard to not push them away, despite their actions towards me.
- jquery 7y ago
  Not you, I’m thinking specifically of certain comments that are using this thread as a thinly veiled excuse to attack Mormonism and even Christians in general. I’m not Mormon myself but I have Mormon family members and the openly upvoted bigotry disturbs me.

bensonn 7y ago

Is 100 billion really that much? The church has 16 million members. That is about $6,000 per member. The church has had 200 years of tithing and compound interest to get to this point. If used as an endowment to support 16 million people in 170+ countries that doesn't seem too crazy. A single human (not mentioning any names) having 100 billion seems crazy.

tomrod 7y ago
16 million members claimed, closer to 20%-30% attend, maybe 20% of that figure pay substantial amounts (excluding children, impoverished, most families are single-income homes due to Mormon doctrine, etc.)
darksaints 7y ago
$100 billion in one fund. $32 billion accounted for in other funds [0]. Not to mention 2% of the land in Florida, several billion dollars in commercial and residential real estate. Who knows what else they're hiding. And 16 million members is fools' accounting. It doesn't account for the millions of people like me who don't go to church and yet are still members because I don't want to pay money to hire a lawyer to force the church to take my name off the records. [0] https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks-says-new-documents-link-lds-church-to-companies-worth-over-32-billion https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks-says-new-documents-l...
- ngngngng 7y ago
  > I don't want to pay money to hire a lawyer to force the church to take my name off the records. You literally just have to ask in writing. Send a letter to church headquarters in Salt Lake. But you already knew that didn't you? I swear ex-mormons are more devoted to getting people converted to their way of thinking than believing mormons are.
  - darksaints 7y ago
    No, sending a letter in writing is not enough. Not if you don't want to be tracked down and harassed with reconversion attempts, or for them to contact your family members and friends to rat you out. The only way that has remotely proven to prevent such behavior from the church is to have it done by a lawyer. But you already knew that didn't you?

metabagel 7y ago

I guess it’s really the First National Bank of Latter Day Saints.

gigatexal 7y ago

How is this on HN? And on the front page no less?

tomrod 7y ago
Hackers have a natural affinity for the structure of systems, be they behavioral/political or technological.

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

Any discussion related to "church" funds makes me go back to a very interesting question: how much is the Catholic church worth today? I remember a while ago spending a few hours trying to dig some useful info. Of course there's not much online, and estimates range from 100s of B$ to something between 1 and 2 T$. Still credible. The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge wealth over the course of two millenia.

giarc 7y ago
>The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge wealth over the course of two millenia. Really? I thought it was pretty obvious. They literally pass around a plate and millions of people around the world are expected to put in 10% of their salary. In addition they have been around forever so have a vast collection of property and priceless art etc.
- javagram 7y ago
  FWIW I don’t believe the Catholic Church teaches a “10% of their salary” tithe at all. Certainly not in the way some other churches do. The church in the USA receives funds from passing the plate, but European Catholic Churches historically receive their money from a voluntary church tax levied by the civil government, which is also not 10%. Most parishes I’ve been to in the USA publish their weekly offering and from those numbers it’s pretty clear people are not putting in 10% of their salary. Maybe 1%?
javagram 7y ago
Much of the estimated wealth is real estate (churches, schools, universities, hospitals) and artwork that should not be sold as it is being used for charitable or religious purposes or exhibited to the public. It’s hard to estimate since the “church” is composed of so many organizations. There was also a lot of excess wealth accumulated during the Middle Ages but I believe much of it was seized by governments over the last 500 years, varying from countries like France that even seized ownership of the church buildings to various dissolutions of religious orders and monasteries in other countries.

GnarfGnarf 7y ago

The Church gives back too. FamilySearch.org is a website with billions of names, where you can build your genealogy and collaborate with others who share your pedigree and provide you your ancestry from their own research. The website must cost millions to operate, yet is available for free.

ashton314 7y ago
familysearch.org is incredible. My previous bishop (a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ is essentially a pastor; bishops are unpaid volunteers) worked for Family Search in their engineering department. It most certainly costs millions to operate, and is being extremely actively developed. Last I heard they’re using machine learning to index obituaries from old newspapers so that people could find records of their ancestors more easily. Pretty incredible stuff. Try taking a look at Family Search. It’s so cool.

irrational 7y ago

Here is a related article from Forbes. https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2020/12/30/mormons-and-the-tax-law/#7c04e4351d2c https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2020/12/30/mormons...

heyguys 7y ago

dont care

doggydogs94 7y ago

You either participate in your church for theological reasons or you participate to be a member of a club. It seems like many of the negative commenters here attended church to be in a club.

paulie_a 7y ago

Mormons are heavily involved.im pyramid schemes and outright ponzis.

dang 7y ago
Please keep religious flamebait (not to mention slurs) off this site. Even if the OP is related and activating, that's an additional reason not to go there. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

kyrieeschaton 7y ago

Other ethnoreligious groups do this at vastly larger scale with surprisingly little publicity. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB894240270899870000 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB894240270899870000 https://www.jta.org/2009/10/27/united-states/jewish-charities-on-top-400-list-see-how-they-ranked https://www.jta.org/2009/10/27/united-states/jewish-charitie...

yters 7y ago

I'm Catholic, and I wonder whether it might be a good test of the divinity of the institution just to give away all the wealth accrued over the centuries. If it is God ordained, then it should survive in the same setting as it was founded, i.e. without any material goods. If not, then why bother with it?

tony 7y ago

I have LDS in my family, I have an anecdote just this week I was looking up genealogy of my family and found my Aunt already added my great grandparents back in Poland. The church runs the website and offers it free of charge (https://www.familysearch.org/ https://www.familysearch.org/), you don't need to be a member to use it. Another anecdote is Matz, creator of ruby is a member: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkh0gPf4Noc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkh0gPf4Noc Also they make really nice music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoqtX4YAIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoqtX4YAIY On the subject of churches asking for tithes and donations - I've seen various denominations do it and never felt odd about it. Back in my hometown, our church was the ones doing outreach to help the local homeless and getting them back on their feet (not the city or country, that's for sure). This was the early 90s though.

rachellogan5 7y ago

The specific dealings of the church aside, there are some seriously concerning philosophies coming out of all this. I wrote up a little something because I'm uncomfortable with the things I'm hearing members say. https://apathofmyown.com/saving-for-a-rainy-day-prosperity-and-the-gospel/ https://apathofmyown.com/saving-for-a-rainy-day-prosperity-a...