24 ms·

U.S. immigration policy has been a boon for the tech industry in Canada

401 points by md8 7y ago

samfisher83 7y ago
I understand the article is about visa, but the salary discrepancy between the two is very large. I am sure many Canadians are moving to SV to double or triple their salaries.
- generatorguy 7y ago
  And their expenses!
  - jbay808 7y ago
    Not so much! Vancouver isn't cheap either, and a lot of stuff in the US is just cheaper. And whenever I'm making more than I'm spending, I'd happily multiply both numbers.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Are we talking about the same Canada? Besides food, almost everything else is more expensive in Canada, diapers cost twice as much for example.
  - webpaymentsguy 7y ago
    Cost of living has been skyrocketing in Toronto and Vancouver as well unfortunately.
  - refurb 7y ago
    Not even close. I’d say expenses are 50% higher (Toronto to SF, mostly housing), but income is 100-200% higher.
zyang 7y ago
Raw numbers don't tell the whole story. From personal experience, Canada is great for new immigrants to get educated and started, but US always vacuums up the best talents.
bencunningham 7y ago
Let's not pretend that Canadian cities are a utopia for tech workers. Vancouver and Toronto are insanely expensive and salaries just don't compare to those a hundred kilometres to the south. Hopefully it steadily improves but I'm not hopeful with these tech companies having virtually an unlimited supply and no incentive to boost salaries.
- yawaramin 7y ago
  Toronto may be expensive but it's not SF-level expensive. Salaries may not compare but you don't have to worry about basic things like healthcare and high-powered weaponry in the streets. Those are just the top two–there are many other reasons to move to Canada than just money.
  - ummwhat 7y ago
    High powered weaponry in the street? Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California.
    - artificial 7y ago
      I believe the "News" may be thanked for that.
    - jldugger 7y ago
      > Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California. That someone might have been a Californian. To pick a recent example: https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Videos-show-fatal-shooting-in-parking-space-14995714.php https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Videos-show-fatal-shoot... Hyperbole aside, you are more likely to die from firearms in California than Canada. Most of that, on both sides of the border, is suicide.
      - ramraj07 7y ago
        Studied in Montreal, went to Texas, then to New York. When I left Montreal, people were genuinely worried for me that I'm gonna get shot. Contrary to popular Canadian fear mongering, the US is not a shooting free-for-all, as big as a problem gun violence might be. Of all the variables, getting shot is not something I consider about when deciding between the US and Canada.
bobbytran 7y ago
Toronto salaries are less than half than in the US for software developer roles. With the high cost of living, I dont know how anyone can live there.
- aianus 7y ago
  To be fair you can rent a studio in a luxury condo (with doorman, pool, gym, curtain glass walls, etc.) for the price of a bunk bed in SF, around USD1600/mo. I know, I've done both. Real estate is expensive to buy and salaries are low, though, that's for sure.
- smnrchrds 7y ago
  > ____ salaries are less than half than in the US for software developer roles. You can fill the blank with essentially any non-US location and it would remain correct. Nowhere in the world pays tech workers as much as US does, in absolute or relative terms. Most of the world, Canada included, has priced developer salaries close to engineer salaries. The US is the sole exception where developer salaries are priced close to doctor salaries. Let's not pretend Canada is the outlier—US is. I am not saying US is wrong and the rest of the world is right or vice versa in figuring out the correct price for tech work. I am just saying that there are two schools of thought, one the US, the other the rest of the world, and I am sure both have good reasons for their approach.
  - bobbytran 7y ago
    That would be fine. If the cost of living matched these lower salaries.
    - smnrchrds 7y ago
      That's what I meant by relative terms. Relative to cost of living, American tech workers get paid much more than any tech workers anywhere else in the world. American tech workers get paid close to American doctors and get to enjoy doctor-level prosperity. Canadian doctors, in relative terms, get paid about as much as American doctors and get to enjoy similar levels of prosperity as them. Canadian tech workers, however, don't get paid as much as Canadian doctors, but as much as Canadian engineers, so they get to enjoy a lower level of prosperity. Canadian engineers get paid, in relative terms, close to American engineers. Anywhere in the world, with the exception of the US, this is the case. US the outlier. Whether it proves the be the outlier that reverts to mean or one that the mean reverts to remains to be seen. I personally think it would be the former. But I don't have strong opinions on it one way or another.
mcpherrinm 7y ago
I'm moving from San Francisco to Toronto soon. Staying at the same job, my salary will go from $180k usd to $128k usd ($170k cad). (Equity comp remains the same) That's a pretty big cut, though at least for me it's worth it because of non-monetary reasons, like being closer to family, not dealing with immigration anymore, healthcare/education. The money stuff isn't so bad. A downtown Toronto condo is a lot cheaper than San Francisco. That alone makes the pay cut easy enough to swallow. Either way I can comfortably live on a tech salary. Starting prices for: 3 Bed SF condo: 1.2M usd 3 Bed TO condo: 0.7M usd (900k cad) No rigorous comparison, just from me house hunting in both markets.
- vtange 7y ago
  Would you have made the switch if it wasn't closer to family?
  - mcpherrinm 7y ago
    I'd probably be in Vancouver or Montreal otherwise.
    - fouc 7y ago
      The salary would still be 128k usd in those cities too right?
      - blaser-waffle 7y ago
        Probably not Montreal -- they have a reputation for lower pay and higher taxes. But also considerably cheaper COL. As a friend from out that way put it, "its harder to be a consumer there, but easier to be a human".
        wenc 7y ago
        > As a friend from out that way put it, "its harder to be a consumer there, but easier to be a human". This rings true but it depends on what kind of human you are (I lived in Montreal for many years and enjoyed it there, but did not see myself living there long term). It's easier to be lower middle class, an artist, a student, a chef, a government employee, etc. in Montreal, but if you're at all an ambitious human, Montreal has less for you. Apart from the universities (there's one that is highly-ranked internationally), it's not the kind of city that attracts go-getters (exceptions exist of course -- the tech scene these days, though still not comparable to major U.S. cities, is much different from when I was there). Montrealers feel less of an economic struggle (more joie-de-vivre and love of the simple life, rents are controlled, CoL is low), but the existential struggle to fit in (if you're not pur-laine Quebecois), to find community (if you don't speak French at near native levels) and to find meaningful work (if you're at the top of your profession) is far more pronounced if you're ambitious. Being fully human (for me) means being able to express myself in one's work and having good relationships. For many Americans, finding these things in Montreal may be more challenging than say a place like Toronto. On the other hand, Montreal is a way more interesting place to vacation than Toronto.
jorblumesea 7y ago
The situation is much more complicated. Many go to school in the US, work here to pay off their debts for a decade, then move to Canada for citizenship. Arguably, the US still takes "our cut" of the global workforce. It also depends on where the immigrants come from. Chinese and Indians have the longest wait list, and therefore its natural for them to look for better options. They are right to do so, imo. There's also the weather and cost, the large cities in Canada can be insanely expensive, with terrible weather, and salaries aren't anywhere near US levels. If your rent is 2-3k and you're making 100k CAD a year, it doesn't feel like you're living the dream. Want to buy a home in Vancouver or Toronto? No big deal, just fork over 1-2 million CAD for a 1 hour one way commute. The quality of immigrants is a factor too. The US still sweeps up the best and brightest of academia and business. I know more than a few Canadians (from immigrant backgrounds) that moved to SV recently purely for the weather and salary reasons. I wonder if when they get their citizenship, many of those in the article will be back in the US or moving there.
frequentnapper 7y ago
Canada gets immigrants from developing countries; immigrants take advantage of the excellent education and healthcare system, after a few years get a citizenship, a TN visa, then move to US for a better salary and a lower rent. USA gets the cream of the crop from Canada and wins. Canada loses.
- rewq4321 7y ago
  If they're Canadian citizens, then aren't they still getting taxed? If by "Canada loses", you mean that they lose entrepreneurs, then it seems like (from what the startup scene people were saying in that article) the opposite is actually occurring. Also, if your hypothesis were true, you probably wouldn't see an influx of big companies (e.g. Google, Microsoft, Intel, Uber, etc.) opening shop in Canada - the companies are obviously moving to the people in this case. Seems fairly obvious to me (as an Australian looking at options for permanent residence in the US) that the US has sabotaged its brain draining ability in the last few years.
  - frequentnapper 7y ago
    You can be a non resident Canadian and only pay US taxes
  - CalRobert 7y ago
    Taxation is based on residency, not citizenship, for all nations bar Eritrea and the US.
  - frequentnapper 7y ago
    I'm a Canadian naturalized citizen. I am currently in Japan. In the last few years since obtaining PR became a piece of cake, I have seen Indians and Chinese coming here for a masters in a technical field (which are now a joke to get into and graduate from as long as you can pay tuition), obtain a PR in less than year after graduation, 3 years after that a citizenship, apply for TN visa and get a job in US easily. Why? Because it's very easy to do so and rent/property prices in Vancouver/Toronto have skyrocketed but tech salaries are nothing compared to what you can make in US in USD. Also taxes, cost of living, etc. in select states in US (texas for example) are much lower. Even in seattle, etc. you pay higher rent, but your salary more than makes up for it. Canadian policy basically makes sure that we lose the brightest to US .
Phanyxx 7y ago
Vancouverite here. When major tech companies started setting up satellite offices here, I assumed it'd be a temporary situation, and that we'd be at the mercy of any change in the U.S. immigration process. The longer there's an immigration bottleneck though, the more entrenched these companies become here. There are more senior roles opening up here all the time, and salaries are increasing in this competitive market. From my experience on the media / marketing side of things, a lot of people moving here that didn't consider the U.S. as an option. For some roles, our entire crop of interviewees have moved to Canada from other countries. Yes, the U.S. immigration situation is helping the Canadian tech scene, but cities like Vancouver and Toronto are more than a mere crashpad for people waiting to move to SV. There's real momentum here as well.
- petre 7y ago
  Also better healthcare. My parents have friends that moved from the US to Canada due to this and the very competitive job market in the US with virtually no employee rights. They weren't working in tech but banking/services.
  - amatecha 7y ago
    In some ways, perhaps. The fact we frequently have to pay for prescribed medication is mind-blowingly ridiculous. Even with medical insurance (through your employer or paying for the plan yourself), you're usually forced to use generic medications if you want coverage - even when your doctor signs a Special Authority[0] form to have your medication covered. And yes, there can be pretty substantial differences between name brand and generic. [0] https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/health/practitioner-professional-resources/pharmacare/prescribers/special-authority https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/health/practitioner-profe...
    - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
      > substantial differences between name brand and generic I was under the impression generics are molecular identical? How do they differ when the name brand version says on the pack, for example, temazepam 10mg, and the generic version says the same thing?
nine_zeros 7y ago
US was playing the last few decades with an easy cheat code of sucking in smart immigrants while the rest of the developed world was twiddling thumbs. Now that the US has shot itself on its foot and others are waking up, the playing field appears to be getting more balanced once again.
- tathougies 7y ago
  The US is still the most prefered destination country: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/these-are-the-countries-migrants-want-to-move-to/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/these-are-the-countri.... It overshadows the next four popular destinations combined.
  - nine_zeros 7y ago
    That is 2017. What happened in the last 4 years has a lagging and lasting impact
    - frockington1 7y ago
      In the last 4 years the stock markets is up over 50% and unemployment has plummeted. This has resulted in salaries and total comp going even higher for everyone, and insanely higher for engineers. Living in the US likely became more desirable in the last 4 years
      - fzeroracer 7y ago
        Do you have a source for salary and total comp spiking over the past four years? Because as a software engineer with a lot of software engineer friends, none of us have seen that.
        frockington1 7y ago
        https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope... If you are not seeing growth you may need to gain more marketable skills. Whenever hiring people, more in demand skill sets definitely command a higher salary
bobfrost 7y ago
I'm at somewhat of a cross-roads related to this matter. Note that this mostly applies to immigrants from India or China. I'm from India. This applies irrespective of education level (I did my Bachelors in the US, just FYI) Currently I'm in the US on a student visa (currently during a period of that visa that permits me to work) that expires in a couple years. I cannot renew it. If I want to continue working in the US. My only option is an H1-B (work) visa. There is basically no other option to me. Okay, so let's say I do get the H1-B visa. Then, I have to work for a few more years on that visa, before I'm eligible to apply for a green card - which grants permanent resident status. Now, once I file that application, I'll be on a waitlist. Guess how much time it takes to get a greed card? Atleast 100 years. I'm not joking. Unless there's a policy change, there's no possibility. Even if there's no possibility of me getting a green card, I can still work. I can still buy a house, get married, have kids, etc. A lot of Indians and Chinese in the US currently are in this limbo period, where they don't have a green card. So they still continue to work, start a family. Because no other country will pay as well. But personally, I hate the uncertainty. While even getting a green card isn't a guarantee to get to stay in the country, not having a green card is much worse. A CBP officer has the authority to deny you entry at their discretion. If do deny entry, you are banned from entry for atleast 5 years. That's it. You're life in the US has vanished into thin air. While I love my current job, I trying to immigrate to Canada. You get a PR immediately if you quality based on a points system calculated using specific, meritocratic criteria. If I have a PR I feel I won't worry when I buy a house, plant roots, that my life won't be upended because I failed to follow my visa's restrictions.
- sg47 7y ago
  Now is the time to leave. 18 years in the US with a kid born here. I missed the boat in getting my priority date around the time when my friends were getting theirs (my company was laying off people in other departments and my application got audited). Didn't think it was a big deal at that time. Now, my friends are getting their citizenships and I'm still stuck on a visa. I'm at the whim of the Consul officer and the CBP officer every time I renew my visa or come back into the country. Heavily vested here assuming I'll get a green card but planning to apply for Canadian PR just in case. There's an easy way to game the system if one is in the right situation and is willing to risk it. Leave the country and work for the same company for a year as a manager. Come back on a L1 visa and boom you can apply in the EB-1 category and get your green card in a couple of years. I've quite a few friends who easily got their green cards working for TCS, Infosys, etc. Meanwhile, with a Masters degree and 16 years of experience, I'm at the mercy of immigration officers.
navidr 7y ago
Just like me. I did my BSc in Iran and was applying for grad school for cs 3 years ago. I just picked Canada because of easier immigration policy. Thank you Canada.
freebee34 7y ago
Taxes in canada are very high. The ontario income tax rate of 53.53% applies at 220K CAD. the equivalent rate for Cali in USD is 34.75%. you then have PST/GST (14%), way fewer deductions and european gas taxes. The one thing that is a good deal in canada is cheap high quality education. The "free" healthcare that you get is not very good and even the for pay services are of surprisingly low quality.
- tta 7y ago
  Note that this is the _marginal_ tax rate; the average tax rate for 220k CAD is ~38% without deductions. (Source: https://simpletax.ca/calculator https://simpletax.ca/calculator)
- pbourke 7y ago
  > The "free" healthcare that you get is not very good Utter bullshit. Source: the many friends and family members who have been treated by the system.
  - amatecha 7y ago
    deleted
    - HenryKissinger 7y ago
      Anecdotes are just that. Anecdotes. The most objective and comprehensive measure of health outcomes, life expectancy at birth, remains significantly higher in Canada than in the United States.
      - AzzieElbab 7y ago
        That is very very naive, does not reflect the state of health care system as whole and not even related sometimes. Last I checked, Italy had lower ranking halthcare system than Canada and higher life expectancy. What about hospital wait times? What about wait times for treatments and procedures for non-life threatening illnesses? What about qualify of delivery? What about working hours lost due to all of the above? What about long term consequences of delayed treatments? That is 99% of health care.
adelHBN 7y ago
This is really a terrible thing that's happening. We need the brains that are immigrating to Canada!
- thbr99 7y ago
  Don't worry, they will come to US once they become Canadian citizens on a TN visa.
  - conanbatt 7y ago
    But what about the tax revenue, consumption and investment lost during that period?
jimthrow 7y ago
The Bay Area is full. Voters certainly don’t want any growth here. It’s time for companies to move out of the bay area
- xenadu02 7y ago
  I'm a voter in the Bay Area and I disagree. So do many others. The Bay Area isn't even close to full, it's just NIMBYs who hate any change blocking things.
  - jimthrow 7y ago
    Sure there’s land everywhere especially in the east bay I can see miles and miles of empty space even from 580 I meant politically, the Bimbys don’t want more people in the bay area that’s why so many anti growth politicians get elected
jimmaswell 7y ago
People who can be paid less due to being tied to visas/desperation may be a boon to shareholders but not to the job market for locals.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  Who are willing to work more unpaid overtime, as well. No matter how much you pay American citizens, they obnoxiously demand work-life balance that foreign visa holders in fear of losing their work status don’t.
tengbretson 7y ago
Companies that are nowhere near as successful as those in the US, developer salaries that are nowhere near those in the US. I don't think I get it.
- amatecha 7y ago
  Those wildly successful US companies have Canadian offices too, usually ;)
  - jbay808 7y ago
    For some reason, they generally seem to have a policy of paying significantly less for the same role in their Canadian office.
    - rhexs 7y ago
      Once Canada starts developing those trillion dollar home brew companies that deliver a product most of the world uses at a high margin, I’m sure Canadian salaries will go up to match.
      - jbay808 7y ago
        Was this comment intended as sarcasm? I'm finding it hard to read the intention. Anyway, I'm not so sure that's relevant. If Amazon or Microsoft pay less for the same role and skill level in their Vancouver office than their Seattle office, why wouldn't a Canadian company do the same? I don't think the pay differential is due to patriotism by upper management, so I'm not sure it has to do with where the company was founded. In some cases proximity to the head office may be seen as worth extra pay, but that isn't always the case either. The reasoning seems to be "we pay less in Canada because we can", and Canadian companies like Shopify or (in the past) RIM play the same way.
- HenryKissinger 7y ago
  Not every developer is able, or willing to try, to get a job in the US.
jstewartmobile 7y ago
Many of these jobs can be performed anywhere--even on the go. Whatever the ultimate corporate goals may be, this topic is clearly a control issue, not a talent one. In software, talent can do what it wants wherever it feels like doing it--businesses will yield to it.
dmode 7y ago
Just for perspective - green card wait for Indian tech workers in US is 100+ years. In Canada, you can permanent residency even before you land there
- avocado4 7y ago
  And after you get a citizenship you get a TN Visa and move South to double your income (if you're a top performer).
torgian 7y ago
I think it's hilarious that the tech companies in the States say that they "can't find talent", and yet there are reasons for that. One: These companies want to pay less for more. Smart developers are not going to go for that, so they'll look elsewhere. Then the companies can say "Oh, we can't find anyone, boo-hoo, let's hire someone cheaper now. From overseas." Two: See one. IF you don't believe me, just do a job search and see all the shit software jobs out there. 12 bucks an hour for a full stack? 75k a year for 5 years experience in five languages? Oh, and you gotta be DevOps too. These companies are just trying to take advantage of a system.
ycombonator 7y ago
They will all eventually will migrate to US once the policies are relaxed. This is a typical path for immigrants who can’t get into US directly: Rest of the world -> Canada -> acquire TN Visa -> migrate to US
- rewq4321 7y ago
  Except that if it goes on for too long, a bunch of people end up building a life/business/network/etc there. Someone up-thread mentioned that this is how Hollywood ended up on the other side of the country to New York. It seems pretty hard to argue that the US's current immigration policies aren't helping out Canada right now.
  - SamReidHughes 7y ago
    It's only hard to argue they aren't helping out Canadian companies' shareholders. Other Canadians' lives don't get better in obvious ways when yuppies move into the neighborhood.
    - rewq4321 7y ago
      I think, in the long term, their lives would get better. Their country would end up with more resources at their disposal, which (if we look at the countries around the world) seems fairly well correlated with quality of life of the inhabitants.
      - SamReidHughes 7y ago
        Given Canada's immigration system, it's plausible (I'd guess likely, on a national scale), but it still depends on parameters like the country's current population, or the current availability of desirous places to live. For example, it's pretty clear that without immigrants bidding up property values, British Columbia would have had much higher net interprovincial migration. We see the same thing in California, with people moving out because land is too expensive.
- 7y ago
zaptheimpaler 7y ago
I moved from SF to Canada. Traded a higher salary and basically 0 shot at green card for less money, a PR when I walk in and guaranteed citizenship. Most importantly, you cannot do anything besides your job on an H1B. No start ups, no side projects. You can't even BE in the US without a job and just bum around for a year. Every interaction with the US border folks makes me feel like a criminal. The visa fundamentally restricts the shape of your life in a way thats hard for residents to really understand. I already get paid enough to retire comfortably when I'm older and it's no fun retiring young! Retirement costs in Canada are also significantly lower if you can count on free healthcare. Not worth it. I do miss the weather though :)
- lovehashbrowns 7y ago
  I feel the same way, but from a different perspective since I have DACA. Fortunately I can hop around different jobs or be unemployed, but every couple of years I get to feel like a criminal, and there's the ever-pervasive paradoxical feeling of not being at home but feeling like I'm home in the US. I've been thinking about moving to Guadalajara so I can at least not worry about my immigration status but I'm super scared that I won't feel like I'm home there after being in the US my entire life, and I can't go back on that decision. I've been thinking a lot about Canada as well as Europe, because I think that'll get easier for me to acclimate to. This whole thing is just super depressing. I feel like I've worked all my life for a great career in the US and it's for nothing if I have to leave everything behind at some point.
rwmj 7y ago
Anyone else from western Europe had their ESTA cancelled and had to apply for B1/B2 (non-immigrant visa) just to visit the US? It happened to me at the end of 2018, and it took me a year to get a visa. It's apparently going to be issued this week. It was stuck in Administrative Processing the whole time. The situation is eye-opening. (And no, I don't have a criminal record, or indeed any hint of what I might have "done wrong")
AzzieElbab 7y ago
What boom? I see no boom
- betaby 7y ago
  Same. I see more job listings, yet salary are not moving up. Hardly any boom.
thbr99 7y ago
It stands to be seen how many of them will go back to US when the immigration policy becomes favorable. Canada is still plan B for high skilled immigrants. If H4 work authorization is removed, there will be a surge to Canada. Many US skilled workers do a soft landing to get their PR cards as a plan B. Canada should stop issuing PR cards for soft landers who are playing Canada's immigration system.
thawaway1837 7y ago
The drop from 92% to 75% isn’t the complete story, or even the more important story. The real problem is all the other nonsense people have to deal with. We have a really great employee who single handedly wrote most of the company’s build infrastructure, and was happy in the US on his H1B because while it requires renewal every 3 years, he was well paid and enjoying his life. Until about a year and a half ago when he went back to renew his visa in India but didn’t get an approval for about 6 months. The approval process required the company to submit the salaries of the entire 15000+ global employees from the janitors to the CEO. Once his visa was approved, he packed his bags and moved to Toronto within a couple of months. And our company has stopped hiring more tech workers in the US because they don’t want to have to deal with this anymore.
- zerr 7y ago
  Why your company and employee didn't start H1B to green card conversion process?
  - jzulli 7y ago
    My thoughts exactly.
    - lr 7y ago
      As far as I can tell, this House-passed Bill has yet to pass the Senate: https://qz.com/india/1663752/indian-h-1b-holders-may-be-one-step-closer-to-getting-green-cards/ https://qz.com/india/1663752/indian-h-1b-holders-may-be-one-... https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386/all-info https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386... Therefore, someone from India can't just "start H1B to green card conversion process."
      - what_ever 7y ago
        They can start the process, it just the process won't complete for a few decades :)
  - 7y ago
eralps 7y ago
As unfortunate as this is, I think this only applies to Indians and Chinese. I was surprised to see Yoluk did not want to bother applying to jobs in the US. I am a foreign person from ROW (Rest of the World) in the US studying with F1 visa and trying to immigrate here via employment based options. I have friends who also immigrated to Germany and Britain. The process is definitely easier and guaranteed there but for us ROW, the process does not look so bad to me right now. Maybe I just don't know how it should be. After I graduate with F1, I can work up to 3 years with my OPT, companies apply to H1-B in that period. Some start the H1-B process even before you graduate if you have a bachelor's degree already. You have 4 chances in H1-B in the end. EB-2 green card is also an option for us, as far as I know I can get that in less than 2 years. I've read about people who applied to EB-2 directly without H1-B and got that in their STEM OPT extension duration. Finally, even though it is a slim chance, there is also diversity visa lottery. I have friends who got picked from DV lottery while studying here with F1. Everything became easier for them. The US is still attractive to people like me, I don't think how this article portrays the immigration is true.
- jdright 7y ago
  I keep being head hunted to work on SF/SV. And my reply is basically automatic and always the same: "Due to US external policy and cost of life I can't see it being financially practical to move. Although, I would gladly consider any remote position." I think the immigration complexity is the lesser problem there. My research based on housing, school, transport and food tells me it looks like absurdly expensive. To be able to even consider to move there I would need a salary bump of 3x-5x. No way this will ever happen.
  - MAGZine 7y ago
    The bay is a great area if you are a young, healthy person without kids. My colleges take their SV salaries and retreat to somewhere else when they want a family. I think Canada is a better place to raise a family. Or, many other countries are probably comparable (or better).
  - woud420 7y ago
    >To be able to even consider to move there I would need a salary bump of 3x-5x. No way this will ever happen. You'd be surprised. Granted it was over a period of 4 years, but I did hit that 5x.
blaser-waffle 7y ago
USA-ian in Canada here. Been able to work remotely for US firms consistently for going on ~5 years here. I hope these changes drive up tech salaries in Canada -- I fear they won't. Currently they're about 20-40% less than the US particularly due to the currency difference. Cost of living is also a bit higher, and absolutely insane in Vancouver (and a lesser degree, Toronto). I suspect it will continue the H-1B trend, in that it companies won't pay better wages, just outsource to cheaper Canadian labor, who are in turn taxed higher and squeezed harder.
- DraftDodger67 7y ago
  An increase in immigration will drive down tech salaries in Canada - that's the entire point. And along the way they will drive up housing prices, and drive up general revenue and consumer spending since there are simply more bodies in the economy. The system benefits the owners of capital and the migrants themselves, but not existing ('legacy') Canadians. Along the way you get all kinds of social problems caused by the excess of males and the preponderance of Asian families to selectively abort female fetuses.
euix 7y ago
As someone who did his graduate studies in Montreal and moved to NYC to work and then back to Toronto about two years ago I can comment on this. In Toronto I make about 10% less then what I did in NYC if you don't factor in exchange rate. But since I did my entire academic career from undergraduate to phd in Canada, I am able to enjoin a large amount of tuition tax credits which sort of makes up for it. This year I invested in some property downtown Toronto which I plan to hold onto, either living here or leasing it if I leave. However, I think given the right opportunity I would still head back to the U.S. Things are fucked in the U.S. but the sense of scale, velocity is unmatched. In Toronto you feel that people's attitude is just not the same. There is no hunger or lust to be number #1 and I have always been competitive personality type. In NYC even traditional enterprise corporations (where I worked) there is an intensity and drive that's missing here. Call it the american spirit. Salary as this stage is relatively unimportant, making 150 or 250k is about the about the same to me. But the scale and types of opportunities is something else. There are roles and jobs that only exist in the U.S. That being said, for me going back is just a tour of duty, once you are past the journeyman stage of your life and wanting to start a family, then Canada wins unquestioned. The environment, benefits, healthcare, and most importantly education for your children will outweigh just about any salary you can command state-side. Because now you are talking about intangible things that are harder and harder to buy with money. My opinion is, stay in the U.S. when you are young and/or talented. Then, if you are of Indian or Chinese birth, move elsewhere to start a family and take a senior position in Canada. Typically if you come from reputable shop state-side and demonstrate your worth, you can find a job where people will treat you with respect for that experience. They might not be able to compensate you the same way but you can usually get bumped up a notch. If you are of white or European heritage and you are in a good place then you can consider staying the U.S. if you can make it work.
unishark 7y ago
Might just as well say the same about every developed country's immigration policy. Last I heard, all accepted fewer than wanted in. If you perceive you can't get in one place you emigrate to another. Or stay home of course, making it also a boon for developing countries' tech industry (a very good thing, in my opinion).
petilon 7y ago
In the last decade US stock market went up by 256%. All other countries grew below 100%. The outstanding performance of the US stock market was thanks to tech industry. Without the tech industry we'd all be poorer whether you work in tech or not. Anything that hurts tech hurts all Americans. See charts here: https://medium.com/@petilon404/us-prosperity-is-dependent-on-tech-b71848b24d84 https://medium.com/@petilon404/us-prosperity-is-dependent-on...
JaydLawrence 7y ago
This was the case for me. I was looking to move from the UK. US salaries were the highest, but it was too difficult to get in. So I started looking in Canada and found a job in New Brunswick. I like it here, but part of me still wishes I could have gotten into Texas instead.
geebee 7y ago
It's remarkable that the United States can have the highest number of immigrants for any country by a wide margin and still be in this position. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/interactives/international-migrants-by-country/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/interactives/internationa... Over 44 million residents of the US were not born in the US, as opposed to 8 million in Canada. As a percentage of the population, that's lower than Canada, but by weight of sheer numbers, the US shouldn't have any problem with this. The US takes over 1.2 million immigrants into the country every year, we just don't have much of a skilled immigration system - ours is largely based on family reunification. Canada and Australia, on the other hand, have a points based system that favors immigrants with education and skills. I actually do blame the high tech industry for some of this. I just don't think it's a "bug" that the US system was largely based on a very indentured approach, where high tech companies got to decide who is allowed into the US and the circumstances under which they are allowed to remain, with long, grueling waits for a green card, where a would-be immigrant was beholden to an employer (called a "sponsor") and could be fired and deported at the employer's pleasure. Facebook, Google, Apple, all the big companies - you see, what they wanted was a freer, more open system where skilled immigrants got to choose what they'd study, where they'd work, what companies they'd work for, and even whether they'd work in tech in the first place, in accordance with their own personal values and interests and market signals such as salary, cost of living, and work conditions. That's what google and Facebook wanted. Unfortunately, all they could get was an visa that they bestow and control, putting them in a position to determine micro aspects of a would-be immigrants life. Right. This utterly corporate self serving H1B guest worker visa system that undermines markets and is an affront to freedom did terrible damage to the public perception of skilled immigration. Want to be clear, I don't blame anyone for working on an H1B, this wasn't your choice, and it was your only option. Don't blame you for going to Canada, either. But I just don't buy it from the corporate lobbyists. This was hardly a bug, to the companies that make heavy use of the H1B, the control over the worker's right to live int the US is a feature, and they lobbied hard for it.

401 points by md8 7y ago

I understand the article is about visa, but the salary discrepancy between the two is very large. I am sure many Canadians are moving to SV to double or triple their salaries.

generatorguy 7y ago
And their expenses!
- jbay808 7y ago
  Not so much! Vancouver isn't cheap either, and a lot of stuff in the US is just cheaper. And whenever I'm making more than I'm spending, I'd happily multiply both numbers.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Are we talking about the same Canada? Besides food, almost everything else is more expensive in Canada, diapers cost twice as much for example.
- webpaymentsguy 7y ago
  Cost of living has been skyrocketing in Toronto and Vancouver as well unfortunately.
- refurb 7y ago
  Not even close. I’d say expenses are 50% higher (Toronto to SF, mostly housing), but income is 100-200% higher.

zyang 7y ago

Raw numbers don't tell the whole story. From personal experience, Canada is great for new immigrants to get educated and started, but US always vacuums up the best talents.

bencunningham 7y ago

Let's not pretend that Canadian cities are a utopia for tech workers. Vancouver and Toronto are insanely expensive and salaries just don't compare to those a hundred kilometres to the south. Hopefully it steadily improves but I'm not hopeful with these tech companies having virtually an unlimited supply and no incentive to boost salaries.

yawaramin 7y ago
Toronto may be expensive but it's not SF-level expensive. Salaries may not compare but you don't have to worry about basic things like healthcare and high-powered weaponry in the streets. Those are just the top two–there are many other reasons to move to Canada than just money.
- ummwhat 7y ago
  High powered weaponry in the street? Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California.
  - artificial 7y ago
    I believe the "News" may be thanked for that.
  - jldugger 7y ago
    > Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California. That someone might have been a Californian. To pick a recent example: https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Videos-show-fatal-shooting-in-parking-space-14995714.php https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Videos-show-fatal-shoot... Hyperbole aside, you are more likely to die from firearms in California than Canada. Most of that, on both sides of the border, is suicide.
    - ramraj07 7y ago
      Studied in Montreal, went to Texas, then to New York. When I left Montreal, people were genuinely worried for me that I'm gonna get shot. Contrary to popular Canadian fear mongering, the US is not a shooting free-for-all, as big as a problem gun violence might be. Of all the variables, getting shot is not something I consider about when deciding between the US and Canada.

bobbytran 7y ago

Toronto salaries are less than half than in the US for software developer roles. With the high cost of living, I dont know how anyone can live there.

aianus 7y ago
To be fair you can rent a studio in a luxury condo (with doorman, pool, gym, curtain glass walls, etc.) for the price of a bunk bed in SF, around USD1600/mo. I know, I've done both. Real estate is expensive to buy and salaries are low, though, that's for sure.
smnrchrds 7y ago
> ____ salaries are less than half than in the US for software developer roles. You can fill the blank with essentially any non-US location and it would remain correct. Nowhere in the world pays tech workers as much as US does, in absolute or relative terms. Most of the world, Canada included, has priced developer salaries close to engineer salaries. The US is the sole exception where developer salaries are priced close to doctor salaries. Let's not pretend Canada is the outlier—US is. I am not saying US is wrong and the rest of the world is right or vice versa in figuring out the correct price for tech work. I am just saying that there are two schools of thought, one the US, the other the rest of the world, and I am sure both have good reasons for their approach.
- bobbytran 7y ago
  That would be fine. If the cost of living matched these lower salaries.
  - smnrchrds 7y ago
    That's what I meant by relative terms. Relative to cost of living, American tech workers get paid much more than any tech workers anywhere else in the world. American tech workers get paid close to American doctors and get to enjoy doctor-level prosperity. Canadian doctors, in relative terms, get paid about as much as American doctors and get to enjoy similar levels of prosperity as them. Canadian tech workers, however, don't get paid as much as Canadian doctors, but as much as Canadian engineers, so they get to enjoy a lower level of prosperity. Canadian engineers get paid, in relative terms, close to American engineers. Anywhere in the world, with the exception of the US, this is the case. US the outlier. Whether it proves the be the outlier that reverts to mean or one that the mean reverts to remains to be seen. I personally think it would be the former. But I don't have strong opinions on it one way or another.

mcpherrinm 7y ago

I'm moving from San Francisco to Toronto soon. Staying at the same job, my salary will go from $180k usd to $128k usd ($170k cad). (Equity comp remains the same) That's a pretty big cut, though at least for me it's worth it because of non-monetary reasons, like being closer to family, not dealing with immigration anymore, healthcare/education. The money stuff isn't so bad. A downtown Toronto condo is a lot cheaper than San Francisco. That alone makes the pay cut easy enough to swallow. Either way I can comfortably live on a tech salary. Starting prices for: 3 Bed SF condo: 1.2M usd 3 Bed TO condo: 0.7M usd (900k cad) No rigorous comparison, just from me house hunting in both markets.

vtange 7y ago
Would you have made the switch if it wasn't closer to family?
- mcpherrinm 7y ago
  I'd probably be in Vancouver or Montreal otherwise.
  - fouc 7y ago
    The salary would still be 128k usd in those cities too right?
    - blaser-waffle 7y ago
      Probably not Montreal -- they have a reputation for lower pay and higher taxes. But also considerably cheaper COL. As a friend from out that way put it, "its harder to be a consumer there, but easier to be a human".
      - wenc 7y ago
        > As a friend from out that way put it, "its harder to be a consumer there, but easier to be a human". This rings true but it depends on what kind of human you are (I lived in Montreal for many years and enjoyed it there, but did not see myself living there long term). It's easier to be lower middle class, an artist, a student, a chef, a government employee, etc. in Montreal, but if you're at all an ambitious human, Montreal has less for you. Apart from the universities (there's one that is highly-ranked internationally), it's not the kind of city that attracts go-getters (exceptions exist of course -- the tech scene these days, though still not comparable to major U.S. cities, is much different from when I was there). Montrealers feel less of an economic struggle (more joie-de-vivre and love of the simple life, rents are controlled, CoL is low), but the existential struggle to fit in (if you're not pur-laine Quebecois), to find community (if you don't speak French at near native levels) and to find meaningful work (if you're at the top of your profession) is far more pronounced if you're ambitious. Being fully human (for me) means being able to express myself in one's work and having good relationships. For many Americans, finding these things in Montreal may be more challenging than say a place like Toronto. On the other hand, Montreal is a way more interesting place to vacation than Toronto.

jorblumesea 7y ago

The situation is much more complicated. Many go to school in the US, work here to pay off their debts for a decade, then move to Canada for citizenship. Arguably, the US still takes "our cut" of the global workforce. It also depends on where the immigrants come from. Chinese and Indians have the longest wait list, and therefore its natural for them to look for better options. They are right to do so, imo. There's also the weather and cost, the large cities in Canada can be insanely expensive, with terrible weather, and salaries aren't anywhere near US levels. If your rent is 2-3k and you're making 100k CAD a year, it doesn't feel like you're living the dream. Want to buy a home in Vancouver or Toronto? No big deal, just fork over 1-2 million CAD for a 1 hour one way commute. The quality of immigrants is a factor too. The US still sweeps up the best and brightest of academia and business. I know more than a few Canadians (from immigrant backgrounds) that moved to SV recently purely for the weather and salary reasons. I wonder if when they get their citizenship, many of those in the article will be back in the US or moving there.

frequentnapper 7y ago

Canada gets immigrants from developing countries; immigrants take advantage of the excellent education and healthcare system, after a few years get a citizenship, a TN visa, then move to US for a better salary and a lower rent. USA gets the cream of the crop from Canada and wins. Canada loses.

rewq4321 7y ago
If they're Canadian citizens, then aren't they still getting taxed? If by "Canada loses", you mean that they lose entrepreneurs, then it seems like (from what the startup scene people were saying in that article) the opposite is actually occurring. Also, if your hypothesis were true, you probably wouldn't see an influx of big companies (e.g. Google, Microsoft, Intel, Uber, etc.) opening shop in Canada - the companies are obviously moving to the people in this case. Seems fairly obvious to me (as an Australian looking at options for permanent residence in the US) that the US has sabotaged its brain draining ability in the last few years.
- frequentnapper 7y ago
  You can be a non resident Canadian and only pay US taxes
- CalRobert 7y ago
  Taxation is based on residency, not citizenship, for all nations bar Eritrea and the US.
- frequentnapper 7y ago
  I'm a Canadian naturalized citizen. I am currently in Japan. In the last few years since obtaining PR became a piece of cake, I have seen Indians and Chinese coming here for a masters in a technical field (which are now a joke to get into and graduate from as long as you can pay tuition), obtain a PR in less than year after graduation, 3 years after that a citizenship, apply for TN visa and get a job in US easily. Why? Because it's very easy to do so and rent/property prices in Vancouver/Toronto have skyrocketed but tech salaries are nothing compared to what you can make in US in USD. Also taxes, cost of living, etc. in select states in US (texas for example) are much lower. Even in seattle, etc. you pay higher rent, but your salary more than makes up for it. Canadian policy basically makes sure that we lose the brightest to US .

Phanyxx 7y ago

Vancouverite here. When major tech companies started setting up satellite offices here, I assumed it'd be a temporary situation, and that we'd be at the mercy of any change in the U.S. immigration process. The longer there's an immigration bottleneck though, the more entrenched these companies become here. There are more senior roles opening up here all the time, and salaries are increasing in this competitive market. From my experience on the media / marketing side of things, a lot of people moving here that didn't consider the U.S. as an option. For some roles, our entire crop of interviewees have moved to Canada from other countries. Yes, the U.S. immigration situation is helping the Canadian tech scene, but cities like Vancouver and Toronto are more than a mere crashpad for people waiting to move to SV. There's real momentum here as well.

petre 7y ago
Also better healthcare. My parents have friends that moved from the US to Canada due to this and the very competitive job market in the US with virtually no employee rights. They weren't working in tech but banking/services.
- amatecha 7y ago
  In some ways, perhaps. The fact we frequently have to pay for prescribed medication is mind-blowingly ridiculous. Even with medical insurance (through your employer or paying for the plan yourself), you're usually forced to use generic medications if you want coverage - even when your doctor signs a Special Authority[0] form to have your medication covered. And yes, there can be pretty substantial differences between name brand and generic. [0] https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/health/practitioner-professional-resources/pharmacare/prescribers/special-authority https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/health/practitioner-profe...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    > substantial differences between name brand and generic I was under the impression generics are molecular identical? How do they differ when the name brand version says on the pack, for example, temazepam 10mg, and the generic version says the same thing?

nine_zeros 7y ago

US was playing the last few decades with an easy cheat code of sucking in smart immigrants while the rest of the developed world was twiddling thumbs. Now that the US has shot itself on its foot and others are waking up, the playing field appears to be getting more balanced once again.

tathougies 7y ago
The US is still the most prefered destination country: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/these-are-the-countries-migrants-want-to-move-to/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/these-are-the-countri.... It overshadows the next four popular destinations combined.
- nine_zeros 7y ago
  That is 2017. What happened in the last 4 years has a lagging and lasting impact
  - frockington1 7y ago
    In the last 4 years the stock markets is up over 50% and unemployment has plummeted. This has resulted in salaries and total comp going even higher for everyone, and insanely higher for engineers. Living in the US likely became more desirable in the last 4 years
    - fzeroracer 7y ago
      Do you have a source for salary and total comp spiking over the past four years? Because as a software engineer with a lot of software engineer friends, none of us have seen that.
      - frockington1 7y ago
        https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope... If you are not seeing growth you may need to gain more marketable skills. Whenever hiring people, more in demand skill sets definitely command a higher salary

bobfrost 7y ago

I'm at somewhat of a cross-roads related to this matter. Note that this mostly applies to immigrants from India or China. I'm from India. This applies irrespective of education level (I did my Bachelors in the US, just FYI) Currently I'm in the US on a student visa (currently during a period of that visa that permits me to work) that expires in a couple years. I cannot renew it. If I want to continue working in the US. My only option is an H1-B (work) visa. There is basically no other option to me. Okay, so let's say I do get the H1-B visa. Then, I have to work for a few more years on that visa, before I'm eligible to apply for a green card - which grants permanent resident status. Now, once I file that application, I'll be on a waitlist. Guess how much time it takes to get a greed card? Atleast 100 years. I'm not joking. Unless there's a policy change, there's no possibility. Even if there's no possibility of me getting a green card, I can still work. I can still buy a house, get married, have kids, etc. A lot of Indians and Chinese in the US currently are in this limbo period, where they don't have a green card. So they still continue to work, start a family. Because no other country will pay as well. But personally, I hate the uncertainty. While even getting a green card isn't a guarantee to get to stay in the country, not having a green card is much worse. A CBP officer has the authority to deny you entry at their discretion. If do deny entry, you are banned from entry for atleast 5 years. That's it. You're life in the US has vanished into thin air. While I love my current job, I trying to immigrate to Canada. You get a PR immediately if you quality based on a points system calculated using specific, meritocratic criteria. If I have a PR I feel I won't worry when I buy a house, plant roots, that my life won't be upended because I failed to follow my visa's restrictions.

sg47 7y ago
Now is the time to leave. 18 years in the US with a kid born here. I missed the boat in getting my priority date around the time when my friends were getting theirs (my company was laying off people in other departments and my application got audited). Didn't think it was a big deal at that time. Now, my friends are getting their citizenships and I'm still stuck on a visa. I'm at the whim of the Consul officer and the CBP officer every time I renew my visa or come back into the country. Heavily vested here assuming I'll get a green card but planning to apply for Canadian PR just in case. There's an easy way to game the system if one is in the right situation and is willing to risk it. Leave the country and work for the same company for a year as a manager. Come back on a L1 visa and boom you can apply in the EB-1 category and get your green card in a couple of years. I've quite a few friends who easily got their green cards working for TCS, Infosys, etc. Meanwhile, with a Masters degree and 16 years of experience, I'm at the mercy of immigration officers.

navidr 7y ago

Just like me. I did my BSc in Iran and was applying for grad school for cs 3 years ago. I just picked Canada because of easier immigration policy. Thank you Canada.

freebee34 7y ago

Taxes in canada are very high. The ontario income tax rate of 53.53% applies at 220K CAD. the equivalent rate for Cali in USD is 34.75%. you then have PST/GST (14%), way fewer deductions and european gas taxes. The one thing that is a good deal in canada is cheap high quality education. The "free" healthcare that you get is not very good and even the for pay services are of surprisingly low quality.

tta 7y ago
Note that this is the _marginal_ tax rate; the average tax rate for 220k CAD is ~38% without deductions. (Source: https://simpletax.ca/calculator https://simpletax.ca/calculator)
pbourke 7y ago
> The "free" healthcare that you get is not very good Utter bullshit. Source: the many friends and family members who have been treated by the system.
- amatecha 7y ago
  deleted
  - HenryKissinger 7y ago
    Anecdotes are just that. Anecdotes. The most objective and comprehensive measure of health outcomes, life expectancy at birth, remains significantly higher in Canada than in the United States.
    - AzzieElbab 7y ago
      That is very very naive, does not reflect the state of health care system as whole and not even related sometimes. Last I checked, Italy had lower ranking halthcare system than Canada and higher life expectancy. What about hospital wait times? What about wait times for treatments and procedures for non-life threatening illnesses? What about qualify of delivery? What about working hours lost due to all of the above? What about long term consequences of delayed treatments? That is 99% of health care.

adelHBN 7y ago

This is really a terrible thing that's happening. We need the brains that are immigrating to Canada!

thbr99 7y ago
Don't worry, they will come to US once they become Canadian citizens on a TN visa.
- conanbatt 7y ago
  But what about the tax revenue, consumption and investment lost during that period?

jimthrow 7y ago

The Bay Area is full. Voters certainly don’t want any growth here. It’s time for companies to move out of the bay area

xenadu02 7y ago
I'm a voter in the Bay Area and I disagree. So do many others. The Bay Area isn't even close to full, it's just NIMBYs who hate any change blocking things.
- jimthrow 7y ago
  Sure there’s land everywhere especially in the east bay I can see miles and miles of empty space even from 580 I meant politically, the Bimbys don’t want more people in the bay area that’s why so many anti growth politicians get elected

jimmaswell 7y ago

People who can be paid less due to being tied to visas/desperation may be a boon to shareholders but not to the job market for locals.

commandlinefan 7y ago
Who are willing to work more unpaid overtime, as well. No matter how much you pay American citizens, they obnoxiously demand work-life balance that foreign visa holders in fear of losing their work status don’t.

tengbretson 7y ago

Companies that are nowhere near as successful as those in the US, developer salaries that are nowhere near those in the US. I don't think I get it.

amatecha 7y ago
Those wildly successful US companies have Canadian offices too, usually ;)
- jbay808 7y ago
  For some reason, they generally seem to have a policy of paying significantly less for the same role in their Canadian office.
  - rhexs 7y ago
    Once Canada starts developing those trillion dollar home brew companies that deliver a product most of the world uses at a high margin, I’m sure Canadian salaries will go up to match.
    - jbay808 7y ago
      Was this comment intended as sarcasm? I'm finding it hard to read the intention. Anyway, I'm not so sure that's relevant. If Amazon or Microsoft pay less for the same role and skill level in their Vancouver office than their Seattle office, why wouldn't a Canadian company do the same? I don't think the pay differential is due to patriotism by upper management, so I'm not sure it has to do with where the company was founded. In some cases proximity to the head office may be seen as worth extra pay, but that isn't always the case either. The reasoning seems to be "we pay less in Canada because we can", and Canadian companies like Shopify or (in the past) RIM play the same way.
HenryKissinger 7y ago
Not every developer is able, or willing to try, to get a job in the US.

jstewartmobile 7y ago

Many of these jobs can be performed anywhere--even on the go. Whatever the ultimate corporate goals may be, this topic is clearly a control issue, not a talent one. In software, talent can do what it wants wherever it feels like doing it--businesses will yield to it.

dmode 7y ago

Just for perspective - green card wait for Indian tech workers in US is 100+ years. In Canada, you can permanent residency even before you land there

avocado4 7y ago
And after you get a citizenship you get a TN Visa and move South to double your income (if you're a top performer).

torgian 7y ago

I think it's hilarious that the tech companies in the States say that they "can't find talent", and yet there are reasons for that. One: These companies want to pay less for more. Smart developers are not going to go for that, so they'll look elsewhere. Then the companies can say "Oh, we can't find anyone, boo-hoo, let's hire someone cheaper now. From overseas." Two: See one. IF you don't believe me, just do a job search and see all the shit software jobs out there. 12 bucks an hour for a full stack? 75k a year for 5 years experience in five languages? Oh, and you gotta be DevOps too. These companies are just trying to take advantage of a system.

ycombonator 7y ago

They will all eventually will migrate to US once the policies are relaxed. This is a typical path for immigrants who can’t get into US directly: Rest of the world -> Canada -> acquire TN Visa -> migrate to US

rewq4321 7y ago
Except that if it goes on for too long, a bunch of people end up building a life/business/network/etc there. Someone up-thread mentioned that this is how Hollywood ended up on the other side of the country to New York. It seems pretty hard to argue that the US's current immigration policies aren't helping out Canada right now.
- SamReidHughes 7y ago
  It's only hard to argue they aren't helping out Canadian companies' shareholders. Other Canadians' lives don't get better in obvious ways when yuppies move into the neighborhood.
  - rewq4321 7y ago
    I think, in the long term, their lives would get better. Their country would end up with more resources at their disposal, which (if we look at the countries around the world) seems fairly well correlated with quality of life of the inhabitants.
    - SamReidHughes 7y ago
      Given Canada's immigration system, it's plausible (I'd guess likely, on a national scale), but it still depends on parameters like the country's current population, or the current availability of desirous places to live. For example, it's pretty clear that without immigrants bidding up property values, British Columbia would have had much higher net interprovincial migration. We see the same thing in California, with people moving out because land is too expensive.
7y ago

zaptheimpaler 7y ago

I moved from SF to Canada. Traded a higher salary and basically 0 shot at green card for less money, a PR when I walk in and guaranteed citizenship. Most importantly, you cannot do anything besides your job on an H1B. No start ups, no side projects. You can't even BE in the US without a job and just bum around for a year. Every interaction with the US border folks makes me feel like a criminal. The visa fundamentally restricts the shape of your life in a way thats hard for residents to really understand. I already get paid enough to retire comfortably when I'm older and it's no fun retiring young! Retirement costs in Canada are also significantly lower if you can count on free healthcare. Not worth it. I do miss the weather though :)

lovehashbrowns 7y ago
I feel the same way, but from a different perspective since I have DACA. Fortunately I can hop around different jobs or be unemployed, but every couple of years I get to feel like a criminal, and there's the ever-pervasive paradoxical feeling of not being at home but feeling like I'm home in the US. I've been thinking about moving to Guadalajara so I can at least not worry about my immigration status but I'm super scared that I won't feel like I'm home there after being in the US my entire life, and I can't go back on that decision. I've been thinking a lot about Canada as well as Europe, because I think that'll get easier for me to acclimate to. This whole thing is just super depressing. I feel like I've worked all my life for a great career in the US and it's for nothing if I have to leave everything behind at some point.

rwmj 7y ago

Anyone else from western Europe had their ESTA cancelled and had to apply for B1/B2 (non-immigrant visa) just to visit the US? It happened to me at the end of 2018, and it took me a year to get a visa. It's apparently going to be issued this week. It was stuck in Administrative Processing the whole time. The situation is eye-opening. (And no, I don't have a criminal record, or indeed any hint of what I might have "done wrong")

AzzieElbab 7y ago

What boom? I see no boom

betaby 7y ago
Same. I see more job listings, yet salary are not moving up. Hardly any boom.

thbr99 7y ago

It stands to be seen how many of them will go back to US when the immigration policy becomes favorable. Canada is still plan B for high skilled immigrants. If H4 work authorization is removed, there will be a surge to Canada. Many US skilled workers do a soft landing to get their PR cards as a plan B. Canada should stop issuing PR cards for soft landers who are playing Canada's immigration system.

thawaway1837 7y ago

The drop from 92% to 75% isn’t the complete story, or even the more important story. The real problem is all the other nonsense people have to deal with. We have a really great employee who single handedly wrote most of the company’s build infrastructure, and was happy in the US on his H1B because while it requires renewal every 3 years, he was well paid and enjoying his life. Until about a year and a half ago when he went back to renew his visa in India but didn’t get an approval for about 6 months. The approval process required the company to submit the salaries of the entire 15000+ global employees from the janitors to the CEO. Once his visa was approved, he packed his bags and moved to Toronto within a couple of months. And our company has stopped hiring more tech workers in the US because they don’t want to have to deal with this anymore.

zerr 7y ago
Why your company and employee didn't start H1B to green card conversion process?
- jzulli 7y ago
  My thoughts exactly.
  - lr 7y ago
    As far as I can tell, this House-passed Bill has yet to pass the Senate: https://qz.com/india/1663752/indian-h-1b-holders-may-be-one-step-closer-to-getting-green-cards/ https://qz.com/india/1663752/indian-h-1b-holders-may-be-one-... https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386/all-info https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386... Therefore, someone from India can't just "start H1B to green card conversion process."
    - what_ever 7y ago
      They can start the process, it just the process won't complete for a few decades :)
- 7y ago

eralps 7y ago

As unfortunate as this is, I think this only applies to Indians and Chinese. I was surprised to see Yoluk did not want to bother applying to jobs in the US. I am a foreign person from ROW (Rest of the World) in the US studying with F1 visa and trying to immigrate here via employment based options. I have friends who also immigrated to Germany and Britain. The process is definitely easier and guaranteed there but for us ROW, the process does not look so bad to me right now. Maybe I just don't know how it should be. After I graduate with F1, I can work up to 3 years with my OPT, companies apply to H1-B in that period. Some start the H1-B process even before you graduate if you have a bachelor's degree already. You have 4 chances in H1-B in the end. EB-2 green card is also an option for us, as far as I know I can get that in less than 2 years. I've read about people who applied to EB-2 directly without H1-B and got that in their STEM OPT extension duration. Finally, even though it is a slim chance, there is also diversity visa lottery. I have friends who got picked from DV lottery while studying here with F1. Everything became easier for them. The US is still attractive to people like me, I don't think how this article portrays the immigration is true.

jdright 7y ago
I keep being head hunted to work on SF/SV. And my reply is basically automatic and always the same: "Due to US external policy and cost of life I can't see it being financially practical to move. Although, I would gladly consider any remote position." I think the immigration complexity is the lesser problem there. My research based on housing, school, transport and food tells me it looks like absurdly expensive. To be able to even consider to move there I would need a salary bump of 3x-5x. No way this will ever happen.
- MAGZine 7y ago
  The bay is a great area if you are a young, healthy person without kids. My colleges take their SV salaries and retreat to somewhere else when they want a family. I think Canada is a better place to raise a family. Or, many other countries are probably comparable (or better).
- woud420 7y ago
  >To be able to even consider to move there I would need a salary bump of 3x-5x. No way this will ever happen. You'd be surprised. Granted it was over a period of 4 years, but I did hit that 5x.

blaser-waffle 7y ago

USA-ian in Canada here. Been able to work remotely for US firms consistently for going on ~5 years here. I hope these changes drive up tech salaries in Canada -- I fear they won't. Currently they're about 20-40% less than the US particularly due to the currency difference. Cost of living is also a bit higher, and absolutely insane in Vancouver (and a lesser degree, Toronto). I suspect it will continue the H-1B trend, in that it companies won't pay better wages, just outsource to cheaper Canadian labor, who are in turn taxed higher and squeezed harder.

DraftDodger67 7y ago
An increase in immigration will drive down tech salaries in Canada - that's the entire point. And along the way they will drive up housing prices, and drive up general revenue and consumer spending since there are simply more bodies in the economy. The system benefits the owners of capital and the migrants themselves, but not existing ('legacy') Canadians. Along the way you get all kinds of social problems caused by the excess of males and the preponderance of Asian families to selectively abort female fetuses.

euix 7y ago

As someone who did his graduate studies in Montreal and moved to NYC to work and then back to Toronto about two years ago I can comment on this. In Toronto I make about 10% less then what I did in NYC if you don't factor in exchange rate. But since I did my entire academic career from undergraduate to phd in Canada, I am able to enjoin a large amount of tuition tax credits which sort of makes up for it. This year I invested in some property downtown Toronto which I plan to hold onto, either living here or leasing it if I leave. However, I think given the right opportunity I would still head back to the U.S. Things are fucked in the U.S. but the sense of scale, velocity is unmatched. In Toronto you feel that people's attitude is just not the same. There is no hunger or lust to be number #1 and I have always been competitive personality type. In NYC even traditional enterprise corporations (where I worked) there is an intensity and drive that's missing here. Call it the american spirit. Salary as this stage is relatively unimportant, making 150 or 250k is about the about the same to me. But the scale and types of opportunities is something else. There are roles and jobs that only exist in the U.S. That being said, for me going back is just a tour of duty, once you are past the journeyman stage of your life and wanting to start a family, then Canada wins unquestioned. The environment, benefits, healthcare, and most importantly education for your children will outweigh just about any salary you can command state-side. Because now you are talking about intangible things that are harder and harder to buy with money. My opinion is, stay in the U.S. when you are young and/or talented. Then, if you are of Indian or Chinese birth, move elsewhere to start a family and take a senior position in Canada. Typically if you come from reputable shop state-side and demonstrate your worth, you can find a job where people will treat you with respect for that experience. They might not be able to compensate you the same way but you can usually get bumped up a notch. If you are of white or European heritage and you are in a good place then you can consider staying the U.S. if you can make it work.

unishark 7y ago

Might just as well say the same about every developed country's immigration policy. Last I heard, all accepted fewer than wanted in. If you perceive you can't get in one place you emigrate to another. Or stay home of course, making it also a boon for developing countries' tech industry (a very good thing, in my opinion).

petilon 7y ago

In the last decade US stock market went up by 256%. All other countries grew below 100%. The outstanding performance of the US stock market was thanks to tech industry. Without the tech industry we'd all be poorer whether you work in tech or not. Anything that hurts tech hurts all Americans. See charts here: https://medium.com/@petilon404/us-prosperity-is-dependent-on-tech-b71848b24d84 https://medium.com/@petilon404/us-prosperity-is-dependent-on...

JaydLawrence 7y ago

This was the case for me. I was looking to move from the UK. US salaries were the highest, but it was too difficult to get in. So I started looking in Canada and found a job in New Brunswick. I like it here, but part of me still wishes I could have gotten into Texas instead.

geebee 7y ago

It's remarkable that the United States can have the highest number of immigrants for any country by a wide margin and still be in this position. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/interactives/international-migrants-by-country/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/interactives/internationa... Over 44 million residents of the US were not born in the US, as opposed to 8 million in Canada. As a percentage of the population, that's lower than Canada, but by weight of sheer numbers, the US shouldn't have any problem with this. The US takes over 1.2 million immigrants into the country every year, we just don't have much of a skilled immigration system - ours is largely based on family reunification. Canada and Australia, on the other hand, have a points based system that favors immigrants with education and skills. I actually do blame the high tech industry for some of this. I just don't think it's a "bug" that the US system was largely based on a very indentured approach, where high tech companies got to decide who is allowed into the US and the circumstances under which they are allowed to remain, with long, grueling waits for a green card, where a would-be immigrant was beholden to an employer (called a "sponsor") and could be fired and deported at the employer's pleasure. Facebook, Google, Apple, all the big companies - you see, what they wanted was a freer, more open system where skilled immigrants got to choose what they'd study, where they'd work, what companies they'd work for, and even whether they'd work in tech in the first place, in accordance with their own personal values and interests and market signals such as salary, cost of living, and work conditions. That's what google and Facebook wanted. Unfortunately, all they could get was an visa that they bestow and control, putting them in a position to determine micro aspects of a would-be immigrants life. Right. This utterly corporate self serving H1B guest worker visa system that undermines markets and is an affront to freedom did terrible damage to the public perception of skilled immigration. Want to be clear, I don't blame anyone for working on an H1B, this wasn't your choice, and it was your only option. Don't blame you for going to Canada, either. But I just don't buy it from the corporate lobbyists. This was hardly a bug, to the companies that make heavy use of the H1B, the control over the worker's right to live int the US is a feature, and they lobbied hard for it.