6 ms·

See that's where I have problem with this. Isn't data just _data_? Lets draw some pararells to real life. If I go to public space like town square - can't I ta

See that's where I have problem with this. Isn't data just _data_? Lets draw some pararells to real life. If I go to public space like town square - can't I take pictures, notes and records then go home and draw my analytics from it? What if I read something in a book I bought, can't I quote it? Same thing should be with web resources even if they are creative - as long as I don't publish them I should be able to scrape whatever public resources I want and use them in my analytics, machine learning or whatever.

pc86 7y ago
> Isn't data just data? No. At the risk of just repeating the comment you didn't understand, creative works are not "just data" - they are copyrightable works that the owner has control over who can use them, not just for profit, but for any reason with few exceptions. You don't just get to drop someone else's work product into your algorithm without their permission.
- kabacha 7y ago
  > You don't just get to drop someone else's work product into your algorithm without their permission. Why not?
  - ncallaway 7y ago
    Because copyright law exists.
    - dkarras 7y ago
      I don't think using data as input to an algorithm necessarily breaks copyright law. I can read a book to post my impression on it somewhere right? I can read it and say "it was beautiful" on twitter. I can then automate my "taste meter" through machine learning, it reads a given book character by character, and spits out what I'd think of it if I actually read it. Then posts it on twitter, says "it was beautiful". Did I break copyright law? I don't think so.
- amelius 7y ago
  I think the fashion industry should exert their right to have their work removed from photographs.
  - pc86 7y ago
    Neat straw man but you're actually proving my point. There are scenarios under which they can't do that (fair use) but there are also many scenarios where they would be entirely within their right to do so.
- rpedela 7y ago
  There are cases where "dropping into your algorithm" would count as fair use such as a search engine of copyrighted content.
- wtetzner 7y ago
  You can't take something copyrighted by someone else and re-distribute it without their permission. However, I suspect you can capture it freely if you don't re-distribute it.
jermaustin1 7y ago
You are discussing the fair use provisions of copyright law. Not a lawyer, but: You can do all of that, but: You cannot scan the book you bought, and put it on your website for sale or even free - unless it's copyright is up or you are given permission by the copyright holder. You can not take a picture of someones painting in high detail, then sell prints of it - unless it's copyright is up or you are given permission by the copyright holder.
- Angostura 7y ago
  In addition, there are some buildings and landmarks that you can't simply take photos of and then resell https://www.rd.com/advice/travel/eiffel-tower-illegal-photos/ https://www.rd.com/advice/travel/eiffel-tower-illegal-photos... http://www.photographers-resource.co.uk/photography/Legal/Access_Rights.htm http://www.photographers-resource.co.uk/photography/Legal/Ac...
dillonmckay 7y ago
Additionally, some public areas prohibit photography of architecture because of copyright. https://www.diyphotography.net/10-famous-landmarks-youre-allowed-photograph-commercial-use/ https://www.diyphotography.net/10-famous-landmarks-youre-all...
contravariant 7y ago
This is why I strongly prefer the Dutch term 'auteursrecht' (author's rights) as opposed to copyright. Copyright has this annoying incorrect connotation that it has anything to do with copying when it's really publishing that it should be limiting. Downloading publicly available data should (by definition of public) not be a violation of someone's rights. However it's easy to see why it wouldn't be desirable for someone to republish creative works as their own, so it's reasonable to give the author control over how their work should be published. And in the case of price data or similar you would be hard pressed to deem anyone the 'author' of it, hence it would be weird to enforce the author's rights.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  >Copyright has this annoying incorrect connotation that it has anything to do with copying when it's really publishing that it should be limiting. // Copyright does make _copying_ tortuous. Broad personal use exceptions in USA, for example, make this appear not to be true, but it is the act of copying - even without publication - that is protected in general. Ripping a CD in UK, for example is copyright infringement without a general personal use exception (there are exceptions, under Fair Dealing, but whatever you're doing almost certainly doesn't fall into them). See eg UK CDPA1988, Chapter II, section 16(1)(a); or USC17, Chapter 1, 106(1).
SAI_Peregrinus 7y ago
> Isn't data just _data_? Think of Law around data as using dependent types. The legal protections depend on the type of the data, and the type depends on the content (among other things). You have to determine the type BEFORE you can tell what the law says about it, since the law only cares about the type. You could probably encode the law nicely with something like Idris, but any "code as law" type governance system without dependent types won't be able to express existing law.
greenshackle2 7y ago
As far as law is concerned, data is not just data -- bits have colour: https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
lopmotr 7y ago
Your examples are really wanting greater freedom to copy rather than about the distinction between data and creative work. Copyright is supposed to encourage people to make creative work, not encourage people to record existing facts. I think this distinction is important because creative work isn't actually necessary to anyone else - they could create their own different one if they wanted. But data might only have one correct value and if that was locked away by copyright, it would limit other people's ability to do things that can't be done with some different data.

pc86 7y ago

> Isn't data just data? No. At the risk of just repeating the comment you didn't understand, creative works are not "just data" - they are copyrightable works that the owner has control over who can use them, not just for profit, but for any reason with few exceptions. You don't just get to drop someone else's work product into your algorithm without their permission.

kabacha 7y ago
> You don't just get to drop someone else's work product into your algorithm without their permission. Why not?
- ncallaway 7y ago
  Because copyright law exists.
  - dkarras 7y ago
    I don't think using data as input to an algorithm necessarily breaks copyright law. I can read a book to post my impression on it somewhere right? I can read it and say "it was beautiful" on twitter. I can then automate my "taste meter" through machine learning, it reads a given book character by character, and spits out what I'd think of it if I actually read it. Then posts it on twitter, says "it was beautiful". Did I break copyright law? I don't think so.
amelius 7y ago
I think the fashion industry should exert their right to have their work removed from photographs.
- pc86 7y ago
  Neat straw man but you're actually proving my point. There are scenarios under which they can't do that (fair use) but there are also many scenarios where they would be entirely within their right to do so.
rpedela 7y ago
There are cases where "dropping into your algorithm" would count as fair use such as a search engine of copyrighted content.
wtetzner 7y ago
You can't take something copyrighted by someone else and re-distribute it without their permission. However, I suspect you can capture it freely if you don't re-distribute it.

jermaustin1 7y ago

You are discussing the fair use provisions of copyright law. Not a lawyer, but: You can do all of that, but: You cannot scan the book you bought, and put it on your website for sale or even free - unless it's copyright is up or you are given permission by the copyright holder. You can not take a picture of someones painting in high detail, then sell prints of it - unless it's copyright is up or you are given permission by the copyright holder.

Angostura 7y ago
In addition, there are some buildings and landmarks that you can't simply take photos of and then resell https://www.rd.com/advice/travel/eiffel-tower-illegal-photos/ https://www.rd.com/advice/travel/eiffel-tower-illegal-photos... http://www.photographers-resource.co.uk/photography/Legal/Access_Rights.htm http://www.photographers-resource.co.uk/photography/Legal/Ac...

dillonmckay 7y ago

Additionally, some public areas prohibit photography of architecture because of copyright. https://www.diyphotography.net/10-famous-landmarks-youre-allowed-photograph-commercial-use/ https://www.diyphotography.net/10-famous-landmarks-youre-all...

contravariant 7y ago

This is why I strongly prefer the Dutch term 'auteursrecht' (author's rights) as opposed to copyright. Copyright has this annoying incorrect connotation that it has anything to do with copying when it's really publishing that it should be limiting. Downloading publicly available data should (by definition of public) not be a violation of someone's rights. However it's easy to see why it wouldn't be desirable for someone to republish creative works as their own, so it's reasonable to give the author control over how their work should be published. And in the case of price data or similar you would be hard pressed to deem anyone the 'author' of it, hence it would be weird to enforce the author's rights.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
>Copyright has this annoying incorrect connotation that it has anything to do with copying when it's really publishing that it should be limiting. // Copyright does make _copying_ tortuous. Broad personal use exceptions in USA, for example, make this appear not to be true, but it is the act of copying - even without publication - that is protected in general. Ripping a CD in UK, for example is copyright infringement without a general personal use exception (there are exceptions, under Fair Dealing, but whatever you're doing almost certainly doesn't fall into them). See eg UK CDPA1988, Chapter II, section 16(1)(a); or USC17, Chapter 1, 106(1).

SAI_Peregrinus 7y ago

> Isn't data just _data_? Think of Law around data as using dependent types. The legal protections depend on the type of the data, and the type depends on the content (among other things). You have to determine the type BEFORE you can tell what the law says about it, since the law only cares about the type. You could probably encode the law nicely with something like Idris, but any "code as law" type governance system without dependent types won't be able to express existing law.

greenshackle2 7y ago

As far as law is concerned, data is not just data -- bits have colour: https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

lopmotr 7y ago

Your examples are really wanting greater freedom to copy rather than about the distinction between data and creative work. Copyright is supposed to encourage people to make creative work, not encourage people to record existing facts. I think this distinction is important because creative work isn't actually necessary to anyone else - they could create their own different one if they wanted. But data might only have one correct value and if that was locked away by copyright, it would limit other people's ability to do things that can't be done with some different data.