20 ms·

Being a Noob

• piinbinary 7y ago
  I think this is roughly equivalent to "you'll learn more outside of your comfort zone [even though you'll feel like you know less]"
• quantumwoke 7y ago
  I think this speaks to that time-old trade-off between expertise and generality. I can only speak for myself when I say that empirically expertise seems to pay off in job prospects, exercise, and love. Perhaps my risk heuristic function needs adjusting to focus on exploration?
  • bloopernova 7y ago
    My career, mostly as a sysadmin, has been defined by shallow and wide knowledge. One thing I've noticed, as I've progressed into a team lead position is that the shallow/wide is very difficult for the people who aren't as experienced as me. So my initial "just do it the way I did it!" was very, very wrong. I'm changing that attitude in myself to target folks as subject matter experts (sorry for corporate-speak!) This is relevant because it's actually difficult to try to learn 20+ years of wide/shallow stuff in 6 months. Who'd have thunk it? But people still try to chase that extra knowledge, thinking they have to somehow achieve parity with those much smarter or further along in their careers. (I don't consider myself much smarter, I'm a bear of very little brain) As they progress in their careers and experience, then the wide/shallow can be introduced.
• persona 7y ago
  Is there an inverse correlation between curiosity and the aversion of feeling like a noob? Exploring unknown areas/subjects/places may be a bigger driver than overcoming the ‘noob feeling aversion’
• auggierose 7y ago
  There is the assumption that people necessarily mind feeling like a noob. I don't really. What I dislike is a situation where I freely admit of being a noob and then people who know clearly even less about the situation than I do acting superior. Or people who know more than me now about it, but will know less than me in a month acting superior. Or, just people acting superior :-)
  • chrisseaton 7y ago
    Zen out. Let people act superior if that's how they want to act and don't worry about who knows more or who thinks they know more.
    • Pigo 7y ago
      The last several years it seems I've encountered a lot less abrasive, condescending superior-intellect types. In the past I've worked with people with egos the size of the Sun. I've been wondering if I've just been lucky recently, or if there's just less of them out there. Then again, it could just be that I've learned to tolerate various personalities better as I've gotten older.
    • k__ 7y ago
      This is how we ended up with a bunch of rich but ignorant people calling the shots.
      • chrisseaton 7y ago
        I didn't say do what they say, or let them push you around. Just let them act how they want to act, and then go with what you know. Why does it matter to me if someone acts superior about a topic if I have my own confidence in what I know?
        • k__ 7y ago
          Because they will persuade people who don't know any better.
• yesenadam 7y ago
  Sigh. Do such low-effort posts from other people as these recent pg ones ever appear on the HN front page?! Guess I just won't click on them in future. It's depressing to see –because I really love many of his essays on non-startup subjects, and learned a lot from them, and probably will again next time I read them. edit: oh, now its #1.
  • TrickyRick 7y ago
    Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. This is just common sense written down in a few sentences. Provides nothing new to anyone.
  • heinrichhartman 7y ago
    I don't mind them at all. If Paul writes anything, I want to know about it. So please upvote so it gets to my attention. Also note that Pauls blog is blazingly fast and does not have ADs/Cookie Conent/Tracking madness. I don't click Medium links anymore b/c all that bloat + crap. With blogs like this, I am back to HN in less than 5 seconds if I don't like the content.
    • dangus 7y ago
      Do you want to know about it because he’s a billionaire that might fund your hot dog recognition app or because he’s said anything particularly revelatory? Because I for one and sick and tired of wealth worship in this country. The post is not interesting and shouldn’t be on the front page.
      • brootstrap 7y ago
        Agree with some points there Drangus. I am stoned to the bone and 'shiiiiiittt' that was some deep stuff. What if being a noob is better than being pro??? Maybe that idea works for some cases , but i definitely want to work with professional software devs not noob coders. What do you think Dingus? (hope you are a T&E fan. might as well just take your sister to prom ya dangus she's a girl too!)
      • ekianjo 7y ago
• TopHand 7y ago
  If someone has completed a process even only once, they may have some insight that an old timer has missed. It's always a good idea to listen to a "noob". You may learn something. Noobs also may have the best ideas about improving a process. They haven't fallen into the "we've always done it that way" mind set as of yet.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• nickjj 7y ago
  I like the feeling of being a noob. It means I have something new to learn and discover. Asking questions, whether it's to Google or another person is a very rewarding process when you eventually find an answer. I would have thought most people in the tech industry would think like this since it requires so much ongoing learning and feeling like a noob every time a new library / framework comes out. Maybe not?
• amelius 7y ago
  I think this misses that the word "noob" (or at least its negative connotation) is mostly used in comparison to other people, and doesn't apply at the boundary of human knowledge. Newton wasn't a "noob" because he didn't know about relativity. He probably didn't feel like a "noob". He was just very curious.
  • chrisseaton 7y ago
    I think noob (short for 'new boy' where I come from) just means that you're new to an institution, like a school, or today an open source community. It doesn't imply anything to do with competence.
    • Izkata 7y ago
      Probably just multiple people with different understandings of the word. For example, I picked it up from StarCraft multiplayer in the late 90s/early 2000s, where there were levels: newb(ie) - New to the game (typically doesn't know what they're doing). noob - Currently not good at the game, but is trying to get better (usually lots of overlap with "newb(ie)"). n00b - Insult for someone who isn't good at the game, and is not trying to get better. Often deludes themselves into thinking they're already good at the game.
  • mentat 7y ago
    I think his assertion is that Newton did feel like a noob. I tend to think pg's right. He's done novel enough things that he has an informed view. My experience with novel though less significant investigation and problem solving shows the same.
• duxup 7y ago
  I changed careers and at 40 something I'm a noob again. It can be frustrating not knowing and I'll go down the path of analysis paralysis and procrastination sometimes. I'm a bit prone to that as in my previous career I kinda had things down pretty solidly. But I try to embrace it. Is this the right code here? No better way to find out than try things and see what happens....if it doesn't work, well I'm a noob, that is going to happen. (obviously these are somewhat educated / calculated risks, not just random) I like it. There's a freedom in not worrying if you're doing it right all the time and recognizing that doing it wrong is ok provided you learn.
  • lsaferite 7y ago
    How did you manage the drastic income change that comes with a late-life career change? I've considered it several times in the past, but with a family to support it's not really that feasible.
    • duxup 7y ago
      I received a generous severance package from my previous employer when they were bought by another company and waited out that event in order to support my family for a few months while I attended a coding camp (I studied a lot before and after but wanted some in person instruction). I managed to save a small stash of money as well on the side over nearly 20 years of work that I had as both an emergency fund and "one day I kinda want to do something different" fund. My wife works as well and while she doesn't make much (teacher) it helped of set some costs). The turnaround time from end of previous career to new job was about 8 months and that was probabbly the key. That's not too bad. I would have loved to go back to college for a more formal education but that was not an option due to the time commitment / I was a terrible college student when I was younger so i would have a lot to make up at a traditional college. As a n00b i was making very little at my first job initially but after proving myself my salary has risen quite quickly. I'm not where I used to be in terms of income, but I'm happier for sure.
      • gonational 7y ago
• lordleft 7y ago
  I like this post. There are Socratic echoes here: "I know that I know nothing", though pg is making a different point. It seems cliche and low effort but often times deep truths ARE cliched. The older I get, the more okay I am with embracing my lack of knowledge in a domain. Now I see it more as a potential first step in future mastery.
  • bob33212 7y ago
    As a teenager I frequently saw the way someone did something and assumed that person was stupid, now as an adult I understand how that person's domain of expertise may be very different from mine and I'm less likely to judge.
    • james-imitative 7y ago
      This a million percent.
• dangus 7y ago
  Billionaire says a bunch of obvious shit, people lap it up as revelatory information, that’s on my corporate America bingo sheet somewhere.
  • ekianjo 7y ago
    > bunch of obvious shit There are not that many non-obvious stuff left to be said in the current state of the world.
    • dangus 7y ago
      Lots of interesting technical content on the front page. This is a post saying how learning new things is good.
      • hans1729 7y ago
        >This is a post saying how learning new things is good. At the same time, this is a post saying "I wonder why evolution discouraged a lack of confidence!" Like, duh. I'm all for Paul, but pretty much any stoned teenager would be able to come up with this.
      • ekianjo 7y ago
        > This is a post saying how learning new things is good. No, it was not just saying that. If that's how you interpreted it then you probably read it too fast.
  • posedge 7y ago
    It's kind of nice to see that billionaires sometimes post obvious shit like the rest of us.
  • kylestlb 7y ago
    And his idea that this is some evolutionary trait is debatable. The uneasy feeling of not knowing something is probably more related to social proof and fear of judgment by others.
• dekken_ 7y ago
  related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin
  • mjklin 7y ago
    Zen Mind, Noob Mind
• xorand 7y ago
  There's a great book by Truesdell, named "An Idiot's Fugitive Essays on Science". According to Truesdell, the initial meaning of the word "idiot" was one who does not have preconceived ideas. https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9781461381877 https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9781461381877
  • yesenadam 7y ago
    Hmm I can't really see that sense here. But thanks, I shall check out that book, looks interesting! idiot (n.) early 14c., "person so mentally deficient as to be incapable of ordinary reasoning;" also in Middle English "simple man, uneducated person, layman" (late 14c.), from Old French idiote "uneducated or ignorant person" (12c.), from Latin idiota "ordinary person, layman; outsider," in Late Latin "uneducated or ignorant person," from Greek idiotes "layman, person lacking professional skill" (opposed to writer, soldier, skilled workman), literally "private person" (as opposed to one taking part in public affairs), used patronizingly for "ignorant person," from idios "one's own" (see idiom). In plural, the Greek word could mean "one's own countrymen." In old English law, one who has been without reasoning or understanding from birth, as distinguished from a lunatic, who became that way. https://www.etymonline.com/word/idiot https://www.etymonline.com/word/idiot
    • xorand 7y ago
      From http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=i)diw/ths http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:19... opp. to a professed orator, opp. a professed philosopher Comes from http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=i)/dios http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:19... where you can find: opp. public, my personal opinion, unique and different from others
• segmondy 7y ago
  Meh, I think post could have been a tweet. Learning new things will have you feeling like a noob. It's okay to feel like a noob and totally clueless, it's sign that you're learning. Learn often, embrace being a noob often.
• ArtWomb 7y ago
  I'm pretty good at keeping up with the SOTA in subjects like crypto, AI. But it's because I make an effort. And they interest me immensely. And it's easy with the wealth of information online. Where I find it harder to keep up is that esoteric knowledge of "the culture". What is current in music and movies and art. Even interacting with young people a lot. The velocity of relevance seems to have altered significantly. Another interesting take is returning to childhood passions. I used to be into sailing and thought if I have some free time I'll take it up as a hobby again. Maybe book a class in Annapolis MD. Or charter a small yacht for a day trip in Florida during spring break. But the world of sailing has just metastasized into a massive industrialized complex! Lexus has a concept luxury yacht. You can control the helm 100% using a Garmin Smart Marine Watch. There exist software platforms for archival wind data. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome. But there is an activation energy. And I am sure there are still single person Hobie Cats available. But it does make you feel as if you need to be all-in or else exist in a perpetual state of n00b-ishness ;)
  • qwertygerty 7y ago
    >>But it does make you feel as if you need to be all-in Hmm, this is a bigger point than I think you make it out to be. (?) It's something that's pained me for a long time too. I'll ramble a bit... I think part of the problem, in my case at least, is that the world programmed me to think that I need to be all-in. "All-in" to me means I have to get the Lexus yacht and the Garmin smart marine watch, and all the _stuff_ that comes with that, if I want to partake in this activity. If I want to enjoy its pleasures. "All-in" to me also means that this activity (in this modern form) and its ecosystem and community has been structured (by that massive industrialized complex) such that if I don't go all-in, then it wouldn't work. The real action happens when you go all-in. From another angle, if I had the luck of realizing that I can do sailing with a simple Hobie Cat, with a friend, on the local lake. I'd still have to overcome this very difficult impression left on me by the marketers of the Lexus + Garmin + Goodies that a simple Hobie Cat wouldn't be good enough to bring a very broad smile to my face. They would want me to sit with the all-in image in my head. They would want to suppress the simple option. -- which then is where we can look at your other statement: >>>The velocity of relevance seems to have altered significantly. You cannot just go all-in today and be set. you need to do it every year, "new" updates, upgrades, all sold by the same marketers in such a way that the previous models just seem not usable anymore. -- Reading again, I also see >>>it does make you feel you see, thats what they want! >>>it does make you feel as if you need to be all-in so they want to create the idea that being behind, being a noob (the "perpetual state" as you put it) is a bad thing. Or maybe rather, they know humans (as PG says were in the old days required to overcome noobness to survive) so it's built into us. marketers exploit this to get you to buy again and again. ------- which brings us to philosophy. The stuff I've come to realize sit even underneath the above statements. See, philosophers tells us that happiness already exists inside us. Right now. Right here. Inside. If you could be made to believe it is outside, then you could be told 'one of the things' out there might be the one for you. Which implies, you'd have to try out a lot of stuff to hopefully find it between the options. Which gives you the idea that if you get something, and it doesn't work, you just gotta try something else. But what you don't know, the trick, is that none of it will fulfill. Also, problem for a capitalist world is that, if you know happiness is inside, then you have no reason to seek it outside of you. If you're not seeking it outside, and you feel it inside, you won't be open to suggestions of products that might fulfill this suggested feeling of emptiness. Which means they can't sell you anything, and thus not take your money. So, ask yourself then, how much of how our society is built, its structures, how we're educated, deliberately avoids helping you to find the happiness inside, and deliberately pushes you to seek for it outside of yourself. - being a noob i think then is not something we should seek in all cases. when learning , yes definately. but ito happiness, being in the moment and enjoying it as it is, is all you need. no noobness attitude. ---- ok, ramble done. I may've gone way beyond your comment, but you triggered something, and I enjoyed it , thanks!
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• louisswiss 7y ago
  > I think the answer is that there are two sources of feeling like a noob: being stupid, and doing something novel. I very much doubt that being stupid correlates with feeling like a noob. In fact, my own experience of 'stupid' people suggests the very opposite.
• annoyingnoob 7y ago
  I resemble that remark.
  • james-imitative 7y ago
    STFU, noob.
    • dang 7y ago
      Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? You've already done it quite a bit, and we're trying for a different sort of quality level here. The idea is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  • annoyingnoob 7y ago
    I think the terse nature of my writing strikes again. While my remark was intended to be a bit silly, I picked the handle that I have for a reason. I'd prefer to be the noob in the room rather than the expert. Getting outside your comfort zone will set you up for big gains - you won't find your limit until you find your limit. Pick something you want to learn and surround yourself with some smart folks in that area, be the noob and watch your growth. It probably won't be easy but it will be worth it. I didn't blog about but I did fly my noob flag.
• AlphaWeaver 7y ago
  > The life of hunter-gatherers was complex, but it didn't change as much as life does now. They didn't suddenly have to figure out what to do about cryptocurrency. This line gave me a good laugh.
• eralps 7y ago
  > the more of a noob you are locally, the less of a noob you are globally. > if you stay in your home country, you'll feel less of a noob > And yet you'll know more if you move. I experienced this in the US when I was scheduling interviews for an internship with a US company. I had waited for the interviewer for half an hour and shoot them an email asking for rescheduling after they did not show up. Turns out I forgot the timezone difference. In all my (quarter-century)life, I had never needed to check timezone in the same country. Felt like the biggest noob. I know more in general now but, even for a simple thing like scheduling an interview, I became "locally" noob.
  • mcguire 7y ago
    That one has caught me out, too, and I've spent most of my life frequently crossing time zone boundaries (Central/Mountain and lately Central/Eastern).
• GistNoesis 7y ago
  "the more you feel like a noob, the better." I am not convinced. With experience it should become rarer and rarer to encounter some things that makes so little sense that you feel like a noob, and you certainly shouldn't feel aimless. The more systems you explore, the bigger the toolbox you acquire. And there are not infinitely many existing tools because they once have been invented. And often these tools can be categorized by their operating principles which are even fewer. Because most disciplines overlap, the more you explore the faster the exploration goes. Sure, when you encounter something new you will need to gather some info before you are operational, but when you are enough of a generalist, you will have picked up enough heuristics to know who, where, and what to look for, and it shouldn't take long. Sure, we can dig and make any subject arbitrarily deep so there are infinitely many new things to explore and be amazed by. Staying humble, curious, honest and acknowledging that there are plenty of things that you have explored yet is also necessary. But if you disperse by being contempt of being a noob you risk becoming lost in a senseless experiencing of a chaotic mess, and not gather experience by seeing the order things could be arranged into. So when you feel like a noob, sort it out.
  • cirgue 7y ago
    > So when you feel like a noob, sort it out. I feel like this is exactly the point he's making: if you're not putting yourself in positions where you feel like a noob, you'er not engaging your skills to their fullest potential, because the 'sorting it out' part is the thing that's really good for you. Nowhere here does he say 'feel like a noob and stay that way."
    • GistNoesis 7y ago
      That's not my way of reading it. He seems to imply that feeling like a noob is normal due to the modern age complexity of this world. If I understand correctly he is telling go and don't be afraid of feeling like a noob. I'm saying if you feel like a noob, stop and fix it before exploring further or risk being lost. I take the contrarian opinion that even though there is growing complexity it is still orderly enough that once experienced enough feeling like a noob should be something akin finding a gem, or having a paradigm shift, which although you should be happy to find, it should remain occasional. I don't believe you need to feel like a noob to be engaging your skills at their fullest potential. In fact that's quite the opposite. It's akin to having bugs in software. Having bugs in software could be a symptom of engaging your skills to the max. But it's more likely the symptom of sloppiness that has accumulated. In fact when your software has bugs, you spend your time doing some bug fixing, instead of doing more interesting things. If you are in position that you are feeling like a noob, or have bug in software, try to understand what went so wrong that you are in this situation and try as much as possible to not be again (but keep exploring and building software). This is a symptom that you are working in a messy environment that is on a path to more mess where you will get lost. You won't sculpt a fine piece of art if you spend your time fixing your chisel every ten minutes.
• sbilstein 7y ago
  lol literally the opposite of his twitter feed in which he revels in telling people what to think and do. that's the opposite of noob mentality. pg jumped the shark.
• chooseaname 7y ago
  > It's not pleasant to feel like a noob. This needs to be qualified. If I'm a noob at something and I find the right person to help me understand said something, it can be an amazingly rewarding experience and not at all unpleasant.
  • tartoran 7y ago
    I love beginner’s mindset and usually takes me quite far as I don’t have any idea what the proper limits are. However, I do find it unpleasant when a more advanced person explains advanced concepts that are not gradpable yet even though they make sense. I need to digest it myself first. And ocasionally I find the advanced person who articulates exactly what I was stuck at but was unable to ask for help
• ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
  I don't mind PG's stuff. I don't care if he's a bazillionaire. I'm not looking for a dime from anyone, and I don't worship wealth. Lots of billionaires say stuff to which I'd rather give a pass. I don't really mind being a n00b. In fact, I seek it out deliberately. It does get me lots of sneers and micro-aggro; but we never learn anything new, if we don't try something new. I have a pretty thick skin. https://medium.com/chrismarshallny/thats-not-what-ships-are-built-for-595f4ae2c284 https://medium.com/chrismarshallny/thats-not-what-ships-are-...
• cushychicken 7y ago
  Man, the hate is thick on the HN comment ground today. Lots of august people are very afraid of looking or feeling stupid. Ask anyone in a product development meeting to take a firm stance on the technical feasibility of a product feature and you'll get a lot of hemming and hawing about it whether the details are feasible, and very few people willing to put their neck out and say "Yes, we can do it." Because if you're wrong, you've spent some of your political capital in a way that fixes in everyone's mind: "Well, the last time we listened to cushychicken, we fucked up!" The angle that I think pg is missing is: when can you safely be a noob, without torpedoing your credibility? That's a much more difficult and interesting question.
  • balfirevic 7y ago
    > and very few people willing to put their neck out and say "Yes, we can do it." Why would you want them to say it if they don't actually know it?
    • cushychicken 7y ago
      I suppose my point was that people with the expertise to know how to do so are typically reluctant to stick their neck out and say so in front of a crowd. I should know. I'm one of those people. I very rarely agree to a feature without ironclad certainty (e.g. a working prototype in hand) that it can be done.
  • DataWorker 7y ago
    That’s the point. If someone is never a noob, that’s bad, and if you confer greater credibility to noob-averse people, you’re not thinking optimally. Fight the urge to assign greater credibility to those who are afraid to be noobs.
    • cushychicken 7y ago
      >Fight the urge to assign greater credibility to those who are afraid to be noobs. ...but conversely, someone who is afraid to be a noob is likely deeply experienced in something. It does create a very interesting natural tension.
• taf2 7y ago
  The problem is being a noob doesn’t sell. So yes approaching life as a noob but if you want people to buy your shit - you best not appear a nub
  • alexpetralia 7y ago
    Success sells. PG has achieved success, so he can freely endorse a noob mentality. But take a loser and add a noob mentality, and you're only signaling a bigger loser. This is not to say a noob mentality is counterproductive - quite the contrary - but that it's not always optimal to flaunt.
• flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
  >Farawavia I think Paul just coined a new fictional destination. (His blog is the only mention of that word indexed in Google atm.) I'm going to use that. Thanks, Paul!
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
  My daily yoga practice has taught me to embrace challenging new poses (or situations in life) in a great new way. A paradigm shift, if you will. I used to look at challenging poses with dread. "Oh god, that's going to be uncomfortable..." or perhaps "There is no way I am strong enough to do that..." and I am always right. It is going to be uncomfortable and I am usually too weak to perform the asana with grace. But what really excited me upon learning recently... and what helps me pull through it every single time now is this: I am about to be able to move my body in a way that was never before possible... at least not possible since I was 6 years old or so most likely... If I can just bear through it... In a few weeks time I know I'll be able to move my body in ways that I never even thought was possible... and that's really exciting for a yogi! Trying new things is exhilarating! I feel sorry for my former self who dreaded them for far too long.
  • stanferder 7y ago
    A noob is simply someone who has found a new world to conquer. The result should be excitement!
• cjfd 7y ago
  I can't say I share the feelings that PG is describing. I don't really mind being a noob at something I see as useful to learn. The feeling that I get in that case is a drive to find out what is up with that thing. In programming it is not always clear, though, that the new thing is that great or even that it should exist in the first place. This makes me then feel not to great. But it is more of a feeling of irritation at the thing that I suspect of not needing to exist.
• mark-r 7y ago
  This gets an upvote from me just for introducing me to "Farawavia".
• qwerty242586 7y ago
  This is just disingenuous yogababble. :jonah hill going "nah" gif:
• yason 7y ago
  Work and hobby-wise, being noob is pretty much my life so far. On the rare occasions where I first think I know everything I do begin to worry as things I tend to work with rarely are that simple, really. Same with people at work. It's often better to be the dullest pencil in the box because if you end up being the sharpest one yourself you know there's likely nobody left to challenge you.
• rs23296008n1 7y ago
  I'm a bit suspicious of people who call me a noob when I'm learning something. Its too often a pejorative as if from on high. As if they were never a beginner. But its a lie. They were once a beginner. And they themselves have probably plateaued. To me its as bad as them bragging about their being a perfectionist. I don't appreciate perfectionism either because they tend to never finish anything. If being a noob is shameful then becoming good and then later an expert is made much more difficult than it should be. Mistakes and failures are also seen as shameful and must be hidden. If you can't be open about making mistakes and learning from them then you're more likely surrounded by idiots or jerks. Failure is part of learning. So if you aren't failing at what you're doing right now in some way, to some degree, then its not challenging enough for you. That is fine because sometimes the job needs to be done right because you're doing the performance. But if you aren't pushing hard into a space where mistakes and failures are actually possible then your goals aren't big enough. Likely stagnating. A stagnating expert is someone who is afraid of the next level. They are afraid of becoming a beginner again. Afraid perhaps to even get into the practice nets and practice batting or throwing. Afraid to practice scales or try some hard piece they've never played.
  • polishdude20 7y ago
    I can call someone a noob and not mean anything negative about it. The word is usually used to mean beginner.
    • rs23296008n1 7y ago
      Different circles of people have different norms.
• davidw 7y ago
  This has to be something that people have studied. Novelty and new challenges are good for your brain. I'm positive that has been researched. As to why learning new things makes you a bit grumpy, I'd bet that has been studied too. Probably it's just that feeling of knowing you're not good at it - and maybe envy of those who are.
• aazaa 7y ago
  > It's not pleasant to feel like a noob. Some people live to feel like a noob. It's a rush. They seek the feeling out. When they stop feeling like a noob, the rush goes away and they look for something else they can be a noob at. These people have trouble finishing projects. Given enough energy and creative thought, they can be quite successful. But the the key is self-awareness. Noobophiles who deny their tendency can strangle a project or company. They can find it hard to let go when success itself is the novelty.
• Kuiper 7y ago
  I'm not sure I relate to Paul Graham's experience of finding being a "noob" unpleasant -- if anything, I find it's the opposite, because any time you're a "noob," there's so much low-hanging fruit to pick. New city? There's a bunch of cool/fun things to do that you haven't tried yet. New hobby? Hop onto Youtube and there's hundreds of hours of "explainer" videos made by passionate hobbyists looking to share their favorite parts of that hobby with you. New to a particular field? Other people have probably already done the work of curating the 1% most interesting, important, and fascinating things to learn about. It's easy to feel like you're making progress when you're starting from zero. I recently bought a guitar and started playing Rocksmith -- think Guitar Hero, but with a real guitar hooked up to your computer, with learning tools designed to help you learn how to play songs of your choosing, along with lessons covering everything from how to play power chords to the very basics of how to hold your guitar when sitting vs standing. I'm a total noob when it comes to playing guitar, but I've enjoyed every part of my time with Rocksmith, from the very first moment I plugged in my guitar and let the software step me through the process of tuning it. I've found it incredibly edifying largely because the experience of picking up an instrument and learning how to play it has reminded me of what it's like to learn a completely new skill from scratch -- I think spending a week with Rocksmith has not only taught me guitar basics, but also given me a refresher course on how to learn a new skill. In fact, I wonder if this can lead to its own problem -- someone who gets too much pleasure from the experience of being a noob and may turn into a dilettante, moving from hobby to hobby without ever taking the time to spend years cultivating a deep expertise. Which, I suppose, is fine on a certain level, but there are definitely times when I've procrastinated and hidden from the intimidating prospect of achieving mastery in a field where I already have a lot of experience, and instead spent that time venturing into new fields where there's still low-hanging fruit for me to pick.
  • pigscantfly 7y ago
    To add my two cents, I've studied half a dozen languages over my life and managed to become fluent in three, give or take. My favorite part of the process is always the first few months, when new concepts come the quickest and one sees major progress made every day. In the end, I think the learning process for almost any skill follows an S-curve, and that initial takeoff is always the most intoxicating period for me. That said, I've spoken about this with others in my classes, and most of them find this early period more daunting and relish later stages, when their footing has become solid.
• shannietron 7y ago
  This sounds like a corollary to the Dunning Kruger Effect! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
• 0xdead 7y ago
  The reasoning of the author is totally flawed. If you feel like a noob locally, there is no guarantee that you will not feel like a noob globally too. In other words, it's not always good to feel like a noob.
• munificent 7y ago
  > Our dislike of feeling like a noob is our brain telling us "Come on, come on, figure this out." Maybe I'm projecting from my own social anxiety, but I believe most of the negative sensation of feeling like a noob is being seen to not know something. People want to come across as valuable to others and one way we do that is by offerring expertise. If we are seen to be noobs, it implies we may be less valuable to others because we don't know a thing. Unfortunately, being a noob is a necessary precondition to actually learning a thing. It's very hard to learn without putting yourself out there in some way and trying. So there is this tension between wanting to be comfortable with looking like an amateur so that you can immerse yourself in the kind of environments where rapid learning happens, while also wanting to come across as an expert at other times.
  • Davertron 7y ago
    I learned to play hockey about 5 years ago. Part of that was going to stick and puck sessions during the week, where I could basically do whatever I wanted; work on skating, stick handling, etc. Sometimes there would be literally no one else at the rink, and during those times it was super fun being a noob. I had a ton of stuff I could work on, and I would see progress from week-to-week. I started playing on a real team not long after starting to learn, and the games were the opposite. I just felt super embarrassed the whole time.
    • miketuritzin 7y ago
      I have thought about this phenomenon with regard to the internet a lot. Online it's easy to be exposed to videos and other content produced by people who are literally among the best in the world at anything. This means we start to measure ourselves against the most unforgiving yardstick imaginable, which makes being a noob (or even "normal") even more painful.
      • lonelappde 7y ago
        Normal is below noob! No matter what you do, for anything you put effort into, you are probably above average at it, when you include not just everyone who tries it but also everyone who hasn't even tried. You can be the worst person at your job and still do a job worth getting paid for.
• blueyes 7y ago
  This is similar to the idea of Beginner's Mind in Zen. Shunryu Suzuki wrote about it in this book: https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Mind-Beginners-Informal-Meditation/dp/1590308492 https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Mind-Beginners-Informal-Meditatio... Which influenced Steve Jobs, among others. It's a great read.
• harrisreynolds 7y ago
  I think this is a great post. Value isn't a function of length. For me value of content like this is a function of insight. While the insight from this article may be obvious to many commenting here and be of less value, in the broader world this idea is not obvious. And while I love and respect everyone commenting, including the negative comments, I am wondering if some may have a higher view their insight on this topic than is real. Metrics may help here: - How many languages do you speak? - How many countries have you spent at least 3 days in? - How many books do you read per year? The higher these numbers to more you likely can appreciate this post. Your humble fellow HN reader, --Harris
  • xxandroxygen 7y ago
    that's a strange kind of gatekeeping to assume that these metrics are the measure of a reader's enjoyment of this post. yes this is a great post, and makes a great point quickly. why do you need to bag on those who haven't met these arbitrary metrics?
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• simonsarris 7y ago
  I get a joyous, almost dreamlike experience out of being a noob, I love to try things for that feeling of difficulty. There is this rapt appreciation that comes with it, even if I don't personally get good at the thing. Ambling about like a dunce myself, trying to gain some knowledge or skill, and watching professionals do it makes me feel in awe. I am overcome with love for humans reaching for the divine, like Faust pondering future human goodness and joy of participation in human life (as he dies).
• lappet 7y ago
  Huh this essay seems really confusing. I can't figure out what pg is actually trying to say - it is short but talks about being a noob in roundabout ways. If this is so popular, perhaps I should get back to blogging again.
• The_mboga_real 7y ago
  Delete. And ____ yourself.
• jeisc 7y ago
  The final lesson one learns is humility when one is pushing daisies! The difficulty in life is knowing what are the important things to keep from what we have learned. Learning without practicing is futility in such as experience is the mother of certitude!
• iapsngh 7y ago
  It's the other way round for me. When I was young, I thought old people had nothing figured out. Now, though I'm not that old but I think young people need to figure out much more. Maybe it was because when I was young, I tried to have a go at things in spite of being a noob at many and being told not to 'experiment'. Now, when I see my children with the same train of thoughts, I remember those days and let them have theirs. I agree with PG > "the more of a noob you are locally, the less of a noob you are globally." And I kind of feel OK being a noob in a new place. Gives me the opportunity to explore without inhibitions.
• kelnos 7y ago
  I don't relate to this at all. Yes, I find being a 'noob' unpleasant, but for me it's not about something tugging at me to figure it out, at least not for intrinsic reasons, but because of some sort of inferiority complex. I don't like that the people around me know more than I do. And the idea that "the more of a noob you are locally, the less a noob you are globally" just feels like faulty logic. Any and all combinations of noob-ness are possible, and pretty likely, IMO. And regardless, this sort of statement just seems like advocating for being a jack of all trades, master of none. There's value in that to some people, but going deep on a subject or place also has value that shouldn't be minimized.
• MattGrommes 7y ago
  I don't know enough about the topic to have a real opinion on it but I dislike tying everything to how we "evolved". Not everything is based on evolution unless you say that our culture and society is based on evolution so it's true by association. It smacks of Deepak Chopra's tying his nonsense to words used in physics and saying it's all science.
• esch89 7y ago
  While I agree that taking risks and trying new things is important, there's this saying that rolling stones don't gather moss. If you keep moving from one thing to the next, you might become a jack of all trades but a master of none. And real accomplishment takes mastery.
• makach 7y ago
  It's a good thing to think of yourself as a noob. I too think of myself as a noob. I believe it has to do about knowledge and experience. You know the old adage "The more you know, the more you know you don't know." To me this is very true. I was reprimanded the other day, by management because I said in a presentation "I don't know" when discussing how to solve a particular problem. When having a discussion there is a few rules that must be followed in order for you to have a meaningful exchange of opinions that brings you closer to some sort of consensus. One of these is principle of charity: "interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation." My manager did the the opposite of this principle and assumed that when I said "I don't know" that that meant that I was going to find out on my own and disregard his opinion and directive. What I meant was that "I don't know, let's gather a group of experts, let them gather information and interpret this in such a way that he can take a proper decision on what to do next." I regret that I wasn't this clear when communicating with him to begin with. To me, in IT nothing is more worse than someone who claim they know everything, have all the answers and don't want to listen. Recently on I recently read the quote "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge." I think this complements the above quote very well, and is something important that we all need to be aware of. To be a noob means at least you have the self-insight to understand that you have much more to learn, and that you are willing to collaborate with your colleagues to achieve more wisdom.
  • zro 7y ago
    > I was reprimanded the other day, by management because I said in a presentation "I don't know" Maybe it's because I'm still in the junior / recent-grad mindset, but my experience has been the opposite. The most striking difference for me between academia and industry is that now it's okay to not know things. In academia you're expected to have the answers and be able to reproduce them on tests and things; in industry it seems much more acceptable to admit ignorance so long as you plan on eventually getting an answer.
    • makach 7y ago
      In academia they usually know the answers on beforehand, unless you are doing a master or a PhD you must learn the basics and show that you understand the concepts of your subject. At work you have to use all your tools to continue to learn, and solve problems that has potentially never been solved before while considering cost-benefit with your solutions and making sure you do whatever it is you are doing with some sort of integrity in place.
• reilly3000 7y ago
  Great post. One thing that jumped out at me was the challenge that concurrency poses to PG and other VCs. When plenty of cash, speculation on platform adoption, and speculation on new financial markets all collide. Which tech is the right horse to ride, if any? Are coins part of terms sheets now? Are DAOs something we should fund? Being far removed from SV and VC means I don't know what the actual questions are surfacing right now, but I do know that it is a perfect example of a situation where a "Beginner's Mind" can serve one well.
• yingw787 7y ago
  It’s refreshing to hear this from an authority figure. My personal website https://yingw787.com https://yingw787.com has the Socratic creed “the only thing I know is that I know nothing”. I try to live up to that ideal and not let my pride and ego get in the way. A constant fight, but one worth having.
• bambax 7y ago
  If you're a constant noob, you're a tourist of knowledge. Actual competence takes time. In many fields, it takes a lifetime. In some fields, it takes more than one lifetime -- you can't achieve greatness if your parents weren't already knowledgeable. Being a noob is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. We are learning machines and curiosity is one of our main drives in life. Appearing as a noob can probably rub some people the wrong way. People who are, how should we put it? Ego sensitive?
  • madsbuch 7y ago
    Being a noob is more a feeling. You can have that feeling with two generations of experience while you are the most knowledgeable person alive in the field. When you do not feel like a noob anymore, you might become complacent. That, I think is the main problem.
  • kharak 7y ago
    What would be an example for professions that required at least two generations?
    • klntsky 7y ago
      Being a part of financial elite.
    • aaron695 7y ago
      I would say none as long as you are middle class. Your family has to get rich enough to send you to university, there's the two generations, it is the best you have these days. A lot of great actors break into Hollywood without legacy. Pre-printed text it may have have had more truth, but if a father can pass it to their son, they can pass it to anyone. I think it's more a romantic idea.
    • solveit 7y ago
      Fields where you have to start very young. For instance, it's very unlikely that you'll become world class in gymnastics, chess, or piano unless your parents were at least knowledgeable enough to get you very good teachers by the time you were ten. Sometimes, a nation that cares enough can substitute.
• SimianLogic2 7y ago
  > The life of hunter-gatherers was complex, but it didn't change as much as life does now. I agree with this sentiment but draw a different conclusion. Stepping outside of your comfort zone as a hunter gatherer was a lot more dangerous -- new terrains, new plants that could be poisonous, new animals that could kill you. Tipping wrong or sticking your chopsticks in your rice bowl is unlikely to lead to death or dismemberment, but it's possible our nervous system is trained to send signals that it might.
• cathyreisenwitz 7y ago
  I wish PG would link to his sources.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• rubyn00bie 7y ago
  Heh. This guy (looks around sheepishly) almost nailed it... For me the feeling of being a n00b is exciting and scary, but one I sort of constantly run towards because it's the one reliable indicator that I am growing. Further, the more knowledge I acquire only emphasizes how little I know sort of making this my steady state in life. I dig it, it's a reason to get up in the morning. The more you know, the less you know. In life as we acquire knowledge we leave the darkness and step into the light, fortunately (IMHO), each time we leave that darkness we find a new world, with each world new shadows we will have to emerge from, ad infinitum. The bounds of which we can know, like our universe is expanding, to not feel like a n00b, is to have stopped learning.
• zackmorris 7y ago
  There's a word for this: provincial. Trying to understand certain phenomena in these times (like the election and continuing support of certain presidents) can be utterly mystifying to academics, intellectuals and other mental explorers. But it helps to realize that half the country lives outside of major cities and their biggest concerns are mostly things like whether gas prices will go up, and real estate taxes, and if they'll have a job next year. The environment or corporate malfeasance or discrimination are so far below their radar that they can be considered second-order effects. They know their way of life and they want it to stay that way forever and they're certain that they sure don't want some far off know-it-all to tell them what to do.
  • beering 7y ago
    ... replied to wrong thread?
  • throwawayjava 7y ago
    Pew did a comprehensive study of urban, suburban, and rural communities (link below). Their empirically-backed findings are pretty divergent from these common stereotypes. https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/what-unites-and-divides-urban-suburban-and-rural-communities/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/what-unites-and-d... There's even an entire portion of the report that basically boils down to "everyone thinks others do not understand their community's problems but is pretty confident they understand other community's problems". https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/how-people-in-urban-suburban-and-rural-communities-see-each-other-and-say-others-see-them/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2018/05/22/how-people-in-urb...
    • zackmorris 7y ago
      Interesting, I wonder if this has been changing due to the arrival of the telephone, internet, etc. Like maybe other factors contribute to local vs global thinking more than geography. I'm honestly at kind of a loss as to why politics is so polarized right now. I've tried just about everything I can think of, but can't create a self-consistent system of logic that explains the reasoning behind why people vote the opposite way that I do. It must be something subjective like religion or some context that I'm not privvy to. I'm kind of joking and kind of not when I say that I wish we had an AI trained to be either liberal or conservative so that we could study it and see where it diverged. It's like we're way out on separate branches of a large search tree, so lack the context to understand where the other side is coming from. It really messes with me, because I should be able to understand a system of logic even if I don't agree with it. But I can't even get that far. What gives?!
• Yhippa 7y ago
  I read this twice and couldn't figure out the meaning of it.
• finnjohnsen2 7y ago
  I've thought a lot about this. Every X years the tech and methods we know and use; get old and eventually useless. This is because we work with and live of something we made up ourselves. Computers, the internet. It just keeps changing. _We_ keep changing it. Law and economics are other examples of studying things we make up ourselves. The opposite, say a botanist or physisist, studies nature and natural laws. How much does flowers, plants and vegetation change? Science and nature doesn't change. Only our insight of nature changes. If you want to become a master, and not reverting to noob over and over - studying nature is a better bet than tech.
• finnjohnsen2 7y ago
  'Imposter syndrome' is also a central component to this topic.
• eldavido 7y ago
  This essay feels a little trite. There's a place for expertise and a place to be a noob. You have to keep learning. But I find this constant degradation of work and effort, something I see a lot in Silicon Valley, pretty tiresome. I feel like the culture is pushing us to be dilettantes in everything, to be more clever, and to "work smarter", rather than putting in the hours -- striving for Olympic-level athletic performance, pushing the state of the art forward in hard science, or bootstrapping an industry cluster from scratch -- any of these could be 10-20 year undertakings. This is pg, in 2012: "If you're not at the leading edge of some rapidly changing field, you can get to one. For example, anyone reasonably smart can probably get to an edge of programming (e.g. building mobile apps) in a year." http://www.paulgraham.com/startupideas.html http://www.paulgraham.com/startupideas.html So yes, I don't think we should be provincial, but there is value in doing the same thing every day, and getting really, really good at it. Some things aren't so easily "disrupted". If you don't put in the time, you can waste your entire life chasing the new and shiny in 2-year increments, and accomplish absolutely nothing of value.
• vimota 7y ago
  Maybe the discomfort of feeling like a noob helps temper the gratification of novelty and curiosity. Sometimes it feels like a balancing act, I want to learn everything, but at the same time the valley of noobness forces me to pick the things that seem particularly interesting. Novelty causes exploration, while the discomfort of learning produces exploitation of only some things.
• m463 7y ago
  Just a thought. I remember listening to a joe rogan podcast where he mentioned the term "personal sovereignty". I took it to be the state people reach when they're the sort of captain of their own boat. And being a noob is sort of the opposite of this... you're sort of at the mercy of things. I think you have to be a noob to get to personal sovereignty, and you have to ping pong back and forth to maintain it.
• scoutt 7y ago
  > why do we dislike it? I don't dislike it at all. I love feeling like a noob. The last summer I purchased a 3D printer (one of those you have to assemble yourself) and, not knowing anything about it, I started to learn, to make tests. I felt like a child again. You are noob, then you master a skill, then you think you are getting good at it. You browse some forum and notice that you really don't know much. Somehow you started to use this skill at work, and it's not so much fun anymore. It's time for searching another thing to be a noob again...
• wglb 7y ago
  I don't find this feeling uncomfortable. I have been driven by an unending curiosity about things that I don't yet know anything about. My career has had many turns into unknown territory. I wonder if a compulsion to be an authority makes the noob feeling uncomfortable.
• m-p-3 7y ago
  Going from you don't know what you don't know to you know that you don't know is still an improvement, and it gives you a path to learning.