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Thunderbird’s New Home
- ForHackernews 7y agoDoes this mean I need to shift my donation? I've been giving specifically to support Thunderbird development, not other Mozilla work [0] for the past few years because I think it's vitally important that email remains an open protocol, supported by mainstream desktop clients. Without Thunderbird, I fear email will be lost to the Gmail & Apple walled garden. [0] https://give.thunderbird.net/en-US/ https://give.thunderbird.net/en-US/
- lowflyer 7y agoBased on this Twitter discussion, it seems necessary to update the donation. Possibly because the recipient is no longer a nonprofit (previously Mozilla Foundation), but now a corp (MZLA). https://twitter.com/mozthunderbird/status/1222228245795475457 https://twitter.com/mozthunderbird/status/122222824579547545...
- ryanleesipes 7y agoThunderbird community manager here. This is correct. Moving from the Mozilla Foundation (non-profit) meant we had to cancel recurring donations. We hope everyone will resume via https://give.thunderbird.net https://give.thunderbird.net
- zerocrates 7y agoThere's no continuing option to give to the Foundation and direct support to Thunderbird? Since the new subsidiary is for-profit, direct donations will no longer be tax-deductible. Feels like an odd choice (and perhaps, an important omission?) when the announcement calls out the importance of donations to Thunderbird.
- sfink 7y agoI doubt it's legal for money to flow that way? You'd be donating to a nonprofit and getting the tax benefit, then the nonprofit would be passing it onto a for-profit corporation. End result: tax-deductible donation to a for-profit corp. That doesn't sound like something the IRS would like. It sounds like the ability to directly generate revenue was seen as outweighing the benefit of allowing tax-deductible donations. (This is my own speculation.)
- derefr 7y agoConsider it this way: if a non-profit pays a for-profit company for services rendered (pure expense on the balance sheet), are they "passing on" your donation to the for-profit? I would think not. Non-profits need to be able to pay for things. At the most basic office-management level, they would need to rent office space, buy paper and coffee filters, contract a janitorial service, etc. Would there be a limit? I don't think so. If I was running, say, a non-profit website host, 100% of my raised donations would be going, as expenses, to a for-profit company (some commercial cloud-hosting provider.) That's still an entirely-legitimate model for a non-profit to operate under.
- sascha_sl 7y agoI'm baffled Thunderbird has to essentially be crowdfunded while Mozilla pays their execs millions and experiments with mostly useless things in Firefox. The only thing I remember worth anything was Container Tabs, and that's mostly abandoned with little tooling and no sync support.
- x3ro 7y agoThey've rebuilt several core parts of their browser in recent years, as far as I know, now being in a place again where I'm glad again I'm using fx instead of chrome. I for one am glad they focus on their core product :)
- mikepurvis 7y agoContainer tabs is the feature that brought me back to Firefox after a decade of Chrome.
- jedberg 7y agoSame here. Being able to use the AWS console in multiple accounts is a lifesaver, as is the privacy of my Google cookie not being sent to every site.
- eugenekolo2 7y agoCan you cite these millions paid to execs at Mozilla?
- 7y ago
- big_chungus 7y ago> explore offering our users products and services that were not possible under the Mozilla Foundation Can anyone offer insight on what this means? My assumption might be some sort of for-profit endeavor? > Ultimately, this move to MZLA Technologies Corporation allows the Thunderbird project to hire more easily, act more swiftly, and pursue ideas that were previously not possible. Not sure how a different legal structure would solve what sounds like an organizational problem.
- RobertRoberts 7y agoMZLA Technologies is a subsidiary of Mozilla. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#MZLA_Technologies_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#MZLA_Techno... I'm interested in more clarification on what this change "actually means" as well.
- lowflyer 7y agoA corp has more flexibility in what it's allowed to do, compared to a US nonprofit. Maybe similar reasons why Mozilla has the Mozilla Corporation in addition to the nonprofit Mozilla Foundation.
- ryanleesipes 7y agoAs the Community Manager for Thunderbird, I can say that this comment is correct. The non-profit Mozilla Foundation had many rules about what we could and could not do. The new Corp gives us more freedom, legally.
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoRules derived from where? Could you give us an example of what the new structure allows that couldn't be done before?
- NeedMoreTea 7y agoFreedom to what though? I'm at a loss why a structure that's OK for FF, is not OK for TB. ...unless there are plans for profit and charging a subscription or some such.
- JeremyBanks 7y agoWhat problem is solved by creating a second corporate subsidiary? This post doesn't really explain.
- dogline 7y agoSo it can be spun off more easily?
- lowflyer 7y agoTo keep money streams and decision making for Firefox and Thunderbird separate?
- lloydde 7y agoI came here to ask the same thing. What were the disadvantages of using the Mozilla Corporation? Will Thunderbird be the only offering in MZLA Technologies Corporation?
- slyrus 7y agoPresumably MZLA is not a 501(c)(3) organization (a Delaware C Corp perhaps?) and can do things that a 501(c)(3) can't, even if the corporation (MZLA) is owned by the 501(c)(3) (Mozilla foundation, in this case). Hopefully this doesn't mean we end up with pocket on our thunderbird home screens.
- mixmastamyk 7y agoWill this affect development any? Thunderbird recently broke my "Virtual Identity" extension, which I've been relying on for years. Not sure what to do now.
- the8472 7y agoCurrent thunderbird lets you customize your from address without the use of extensions.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mixmastamyk 7y agoIt doesn’t work well because you have to remember and do it manually every, single, time for every message to each recipient. V.I. would keep track of that for you.
- iggldiggl 7y ago> It doesn’t work well because you have to remember and do it manually every, single, time for every message to each recipient. I'm having the very same problem, but never knew there actually was an extension for that - though it's a bit disheartening to learn that at the same time it no longer works in the latest Thunderbird version. Hm... (There's also https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1518025 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1518025 to port that functionality into Thunderbird itself, but it seems to have possibly stalled a little?)
- JohnFen 7y agoYeah, Thunderbird broke a few things that were critical to me, too. As a result, I'm staying put on version 52.9.1. If that becomes unsustainable, then I'll have to figure out a different solution.
- gravitas 7y ago
- theobeers 7y agoI think it’s good to put a bit of separation between Thunderbird and the rest of Mozilla. Thunderbird may have a modest but sustainable future of its own, and ideally it shouldn’t be held hostage to the broader challenges and shifting priorities at the parent company.
- burnte 7y agoGod I hope this goes better than Mozilla Messaging. I nearly joined MoMess, and was very sad to see where it went.
- PandaWhisperer 7y ago> MoMess Nomen est omen?
- burnte 7y agoIndeed.
- currysausage 7y agoYeah, it really feels like history repeating. For those who don't remember: "Mozilla Messaging (abbreviated MoMo) was a wholly owned, for-profit subsidiary of the non-profit Mozilla Foundation. ... Its main focus was developing Mozilla Thunderbird, the e-mail client developed by the Mozilla Foundation. It was spun off from the Mozilla project in 2007; on 4 April 2011, it was merged into the Mozilla Labs group of the Mozilla Corporation." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Messaging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Messaging)
- wink 7y agoI admit that software needs some sort of upkeep to not fall to bitrot, but I simply don't understand how we got to the near-falldown of Thunderbird a few years ago. You don't have to add new features, keeping it alive and simply fixing critical bugs is fine. Basically everyone I know would prefer a stable mail client not getting any new features over a few new features and addons breaking. I'm really happy Thunderbird hasn't gone the way of the dodo.
- hannob 7y agoFrom what I understand the challenge with TB is that it's tied into Firefox' engine and that is also in parts used for the GUI (XUL). Every time there's larger refactoring work in FF that affects Thunderbird. And FF wants to get rid of XUL eventually.
- SkyMarshal 7y agoI thought XUL was gone with the recent change to the way addons work in Firefox?
- lowflyer 7y agoXUL was used all over the place, so it takes a while to fully remove it. Thunderbird updates the underlying platform only once per year, catching up with Firefox changes in the yearly major release, while Firefox does so every few weeks.
- jcranmer 7y agoThat's not quite accurate. Thunderbird develops its software with the tip-of-trunk Firefox code at all times. It only makes releases much less frequently than Firefox.
- thenewnewguy 7y agoXUL is no longer exposed to plugins (in non-ESR FF), but is still used internally in some places - where it is slowly being replaced.
- ttul 7y agoFrankly, Mozilla should be rewriting Thunderbird with a completely clean slate. Focus on privacy (ie detection of email trackers) and integration with the big clouds (GSuite and O365), perhaps adding in some security features that are today only available in really pricey business offerings. I’d love to see this happen and for the next good email client to remain open and free rather than being acquired and strip-mined.
- smacktoward 7y agoRelevant: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...
- ttul 7y agoOf course I have read Joel's post and it's accurate. In the late-1990s, Netscape didn't need a full rewrite. But this is not the late-1990s. Thunderbird's current architecture makes it exceptionally difficult to develop on and it's probably time for a reboot of the platform.
- anoncake 7y ago> integration with the big clouds Integration with the big <whatever>s instead of supporting and insisting on open standards is the antitheses to the open web.
- gtirloni 7y agoI think that's a false dichotomy. Both can happen.
- anoncake 7y agoSupporting proprietary APIs means promoting them, which harms open alternatives.
- ttul 7y agoMozilla ignores the people at their peril. Many, if not most, small business type customers have already moved to Microsoft Office365 or Google Suite or have a plan to do so. By default, they use the web interface provided by the giants, but both providers also provide excellent APIs along with IMAP support. Mozilla can help the internet stay open by providing an excellent free and open source email client that can run alongside the proprietary ones that are constantly being developed and re-developed. I think an open platform for email client innovation is badly needed.
- tracker1 7y agoI mentioned this in another thread... but Mozilla/Thunderbird (not MZLA) should really concentrate more on feature-rich support. Specifically better calendar and provider integration. Second to this, they should probably work on their own first class mail and calendar server as at least open core, and probably as SaaS as well. As much as I like some of the mail hosts out there, for some, the ability to self-host is big. The various pieces and software you have to cobble together are cumbersome, and even then, you don't get anything close to what Exchange+Outlook gives you. It would be nice to see Thunderbird fill this space, it used to be what I would consider a best of breed email & newsgroup client, now, I'm not sure I would say anything close to that.
- chrisseaton 7y ago> MZLA Why's Mozilla got a stock ticker if it isn't publicly traded?
- jszymborski 7y agoIt's the name of the new company meant to steward Thunderbird according to the post.
- komon 7y agoIt doesn't, that's the name of the corporation taking over maintenance of Thunderbird listed in the article.
- chrisseaton 7y agoOh right - but I looked up https://stocktwits.com/symbol/MZLA https://stocktwits.com/symbol/MZLA and it's from 2010 so I don't know if that's the new company but it says Mozilla.
- dna_polymerase 7y agoGiven that this is Stocktwits, I assume the page you linked was auto-generated after enough people used the cashtag ($-followed by Symbol) on Twitter.
- johnchristopher 7y ago> More information about the future direction of Thunderbird will be shared in the coming months. Why ? Months is an eternity on the Internet. edit: aye, aye for the downvotes, that's what karma is for, but would someone please explain why more information about the future direction of Thunderbird can't be shared now ? Does it mean there are no plans at all at the moment ?
- netcyrax 7y agoWhy not a Thunderbird Corporation or similar, instead of another confusing 4-letters corp?
- chameleon_world 7y agoI'm assuming other projects will eventually move to MZLA
- selfishgene 7y agoAnyone know if/when Thunderbird will start providing native support for Gmail labels (rather than using the less than satisfactory IMAP folder system that is currently used)?
- jedberg 7y agoMy guess is never, because Gmail only exposes the labels as folders via the IMAP API. As far as I know Gmail doesn't have any other API.
- atesti 7y agoThey are currently blocking all these APIs for everyone who does not do a 30k-100k security audit
- selfishgene 7y agoAre you referring to this API? https://developers.google.com/gmail/api https://developers.google.com/gmail/api
- comex 7y agoYes: https://support.google.com/cloud/answer/9110914?hl=en#why-fee https://support.google.com/cloud/answer/9110914?hl=en#why-fe...
- selfishgene 7y agoThey do have another API that is REST. At least one gmail backup tool is already using it ... https://github.com/jay0lee/got-your-back/wiki https://github.com/jay0lee/got-your-back/wiki
- throwanem 7y agoIdeally, never. Tying an open platform into features that exist only in one SaaS offering from an advertising company isn't a good way to keep it open.
- _wldu 7y agoI switched back to mutt recently. I've tried to use and like Thunderbird, but I just can't make it work consistently across platforms. I really think mutt is the ideal mail user agent. If TB would just become a GUI for mutt, it may be useful to me, but otherwise, it's just not stable nor consistent.
- dmos62 7y agoI found mutt's ui difficult to use, but the main problem was that a significant part of mail I receive is meant to be rendered by a browser, for better or worse (worse). Can you say a bit more about your case?
- bdamm 7y agoYeah, I'd almost give a kidney for a client with mutt's power and Thunderbird's rendering.
- greggyb 7y agoI, too want this. My ideal is actually mu4e, rather than mutt, but the idea is the same. I think what is truly optimal is to keep the CLI nature of the MUA, but have a slave browser window that displays the HTML portion of a message. Then you can tile your terminal to one side of the screen and the browser window to the other. Use the already excellent UI to browse mail and compose mail. When you encounter a message with an HTML part, render that in the slave browser window and render whatever text part exists in the terminal.
- l0b0 7y agoAnd Thunderbird's configuration system. I tried getting back to Mutt a couple years ago, but gave up configuring it after a few hours. I believe the biggest pain points were multi-server configuration and enabling as much caching as possible.
- omnimus 7y agoMaybe MailMate?
- ksec 7y agoNot Sure if Brendan Eich is Reading, wondering if he has anything to share. You need to setup an Entire Separate For Profit Company for a different product?
- laxd 7y agoBrendan Eich left Mozilla in 2014.
- ape4 7y agoThunderbird is a great product, love it. Is there a way to follow Twitter users in "Blogs & News Feeds" ?
- samantohermes 7y agoNitter
- ape4 7y agoThanks I have started using it.
- dugite-code 7y agoI'm still looking for help upgrading/maintaining the Lookout add-on. This add-on allows opening the proprietary Microsoft Winmail.dat files I don't have as much free time as I used to, that and Thunderbird is removing legacy add-on support faster than I would like. https://github.com/TB-throwback/LookOut-fix-version https://github.com/TB-throwback/LookOut-fix-version
- mastrsushi 7y agoAn email client from the 1990's moves across two subsidiaries within the same company. Tada
- cable2600 7y agoI like the ENGMAIL plugin for GNUPG support. If I want to send encrypted messages to my friends I can do so with it.
- 0x689374 7y agothis should be upvoted more
- 0x689374 7y agoyou ask a valid question. Don't worry about the downvotes, most of HN are cunts.