9 ms·

How Carlos Ghosn Was Smuggled Out of Japan

98 points by gyanchawdhary 7y ago

adventured 7y ago
http://archive.is/ph2Ys http://archive.is/ph2Ys
- dannylandau 7y ago
  Thanks
anonu 7y ago
> would need extremely generous compensation for the risks involved, perhaps pushing the total cost to $15 million or more. That's an insane number. And though Ghosn could probably afford that, the cost/benefit would be off kilter. Private Jet Flights were probably under $200k (source https://jettly.com/charter_cost_estimator https://jettly.com/charter_cost_estimator) Hiring a half dozen ex-marines to scout out an escape route, 3 months of planning, maybe $1mm at most...
- MiroF 7y ago
  > Hiring a half dozen ex-marines to scout out an escape route, 3 months of planning, maybe $1mm at most... That's a huge lowball.
- Thorrez 7y ago
  The cost is because everyone you hire risks going to jail, and they won't face that risk without adequate compensation.
- 55555 7y ago
  You might spend a decade in prison or, failing that, you will probably never be able to go to Japan ever again.
  - adventured 7y ago
    And he's 65 years old. It'd be very likely that he would be losing the last good decade of his life - in terms of health - to prison. Even for very healthy and long-lived persons there is a big difference between life at 65 and life at 75. He also has four children and a wife. His fortune was estimated at around $200 million going in and supposedly stands at closer to $100 million now (per sources like Bloomberg and CNBC). If necessary I'd spend $15 million / 15% of my $100 million for those ten years; that's an easy trade. Be modestly cautious and you'd get it back passively with little worry.
  - jasonjei 7y ago
    I doubt he’d be able to return to Japan even if he served his sentence. I suspect he would be deported immediately after serving his prison term.
    - 55555 7y ago
      I was referring to the people who smuggled him out.
- pyb 7y ago
  You need to add Ghosn's bail money to that, another 5 million at least.
mrtksn 7y ago
The guy who works for the Turkish aviation company claims that he was threatened with his family being harmed if he doesn't participate in the operation. Considering that he is in jail for his participation, it is fair to assume that he is not one of the well-paid-identity-protected people in the operation and he did what he did to protect his family. I am not very comfortable with glorifying this story, why exactly this guy's life and family is more important than the airline professional's? Although I would watch the movie about it, this whole ordeal feels wrong as it resembles a story where justice is only for the wealthy and collateral damage to unrelated people's lives is O.K. as if those people are not real humans but NPC that just vanish when you're done with them.
- cheema33 7y ago
  "The guy who works for the Turkish aviation company claims that he was threatened with his family being harmed" That would be my excuse also if I got caught.
  - mrtksn 7y ago
    Why he would be caught when the others are not? The guy was not caught in a police chase, they simply looked at the records to see who is involved. If he was getting his fair share of the money and protection he would have been boarding the plane with the rest of the team as it is obvious that the authorities would be coming after him. Why they are coming after him? Because Ghosn entered Lebanon legally, exposing the plane he came in, thus compromising everyone in the logistics of the operation while protecting the reportedly well-paid organizers. This Ghosn guy looks like the kind of a car company CEO that would crunch the number and decide not to do a recall of the fatally faulty cars if the legal fees are less than the cost of a recall.
  - clamprecht 7y ago
    And if your family were actually threatened, what would be your excuse?
    - darawk 7y ago
Larrikin 7y ago
I don't understand why the media keeps writing these glowing stories about a rich guy using his money to skip bail before a trial and also using that money to make sure he is never tried for the crimes he has been accused of.
- iknowalot 7y ago
  He's a model CEO, speaks 5-6 languages fluently and very successfully ran two major car companies at the same time. How do you not write a story about him?
- lvturner 7y ago
  It's also the kind of story that would (and probably will) make for a blockbuster movie
  - Balgair 7y ago
    It's all just so slap-stick dystopic and zeitgeisty. There's a very strong The Road to Gandolfo vibe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Gandolfo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Gandolfo
- mcthrowpants 7y ago
  You "don't understand" because you failed to do the reading and thus have zero background for knee-jerk "rich guy" comments. Google 'hostage justice' and learn how to learn.
- jonathanstrange 7y ago
  Because they highlight the extreme injustice of the Japanese justice system, which has been documented in numerous cases and is also reflected in figures - state prosecutors virtually never loose a case, people are kept without access to lawyers for weeks, etc. Some of this I already knew but I've learned a lot more from the Ghosn case.
- closeparen 7y ago
  Are you kidding? Rich and famous man fallen from grace, boardroom coup, individual takes on the state, retired special operators on a dangerous mission, outlaw on the run. Each one of those tropes in isolation is worth several Hollywood blockbusters. Now a real world story hits all of them? Of course they're going to write about it breathlessly. This is one of the coolest narratives ever to actually happen. The public doesn't get terribly excited over crimes against shareholders. Ghosn's theory of the case is plausible and a good story, so the press will tend to entertain it. And with two oligarchical factions in a pissing match, one having better access to the tools of state doesn't really elevate its moral standing. In fact, they both seem to own parts of different states. This plotline would be right at home in Billions. Probably get panned by critics for being over the top, honestly.
blackrock 7y ago
Extradite him back to Japan. And arrest all that were accomplice to his escape. When did these people think that they are above the law? They made a mockery of the criminal justice system. And they once again proved that those with money and power are above the law.
- jeffrallen 7y ago
  National sovereignty is still a thing. If Lebanon thinks that Japan's legal system is not respecting their citizen's human rights, they should not extradite. If Lebanon does nothing within it's own legal system, then you can criticize them if you want for giving rich people impunity.
  - aflag 7y ago
    Most countries don't extraditate their own citizens regardless of the crime. I don't even know about a country that would extraditate a citizen in this case.
    - philwelch 7y ago
      It's unusual but Mexico did extradite El Chapo to the US.
    - swarnie_ 7y ago
      Still waiting on Anne Sacoolas, whenever you're ready America.
- vxNsr 7y ago
  A criminal justice system that wins 100% of the cases it prosecutes makes a mockery of the system. Same way a dictator who wins 100% of the vote.
  - blackrock 7y ago
    Criminal prosecutors (District Attorneys) in the United States have a near 100% conviction rate. This is because they selectively choose the cases they want to prosecute. By your logic, are you also saying the United States makes a mockery of the criminal justice system? So if you get convicted of a crime in the US, then you’d better pray to God that it isn’t handled by the DA.
ghostcluster 7y ago
The Japanese nationalism angle is fascinating. He joined the French Renault with Japanese Nissan and Mitsubishi. He claims that fears that he was attempting to merge the companies further prompted the corruption charges in Japan. When I first read about this story, I thought it was an open and shut case that Ghosn was guilty. But now I'd like to hear the full story behind the initial accusations.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  It's not the first time this angle is mentioned or that foreign executives in Japan have similar problems (though not as big but he was the highest profile one as well). See this from 2012 (with Ghosn being mentioned as the "most successful foreign CEO at a Japanese company". Well...) : https://www.ft.com/content/fb6974b0-9066-11e1-8cdc-00144feab49a https://www.ft.com/content/fb6974b0-9066-11e1-8cdc-00144feab...
- lkramer 7y ago
  It does seem to be very hard to be a foreign CEO in Japan, especially if you're a bit flamboyant and are used to be treated as a superstar. That said, Ghosn has been accused of very similar things elsewhere: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-sec-nissan/nissan-ghosn-settle-sec-claims-over-undisclosed-compensation-idUSKBN1W81NY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-sec-nissan/nissan-gho... The real difference seems to be that he wasn't able to bribe his way out...
mcthrowpants 7y ago
Japan, like the (irrelvant whatabout) US, uses process as punishment. Google 'Hostage Justice'
ryanlol 7y ago
So what’s the deal with Japan supposedly regularly xraying luggage going onto private jets? That’s not the norm in most of the world. Generally you xray for security, not for customs purposes. Nobody is going to bring a bomb on their own (or rented) private jet.
- rv-de 7y ago
  I know that in Germany those security measures are only in place at large public airports. Small airports where private jets are coming and going don't check luggage. I think this problem exists in most countries. This is possibly how Kashoggi's body got flown out or how sheiks return fled daughters and wifes. (https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/sicherheitsluecken-an-flugplaetzen-reiche-werden-nicht-kontrolliert/22852408.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/sicherheitsluecken-...)
  - ryanlol 7y ago
    >I think this problem exists in most countries. Why is this a problem? The purported reason for checking luggage is security. Checking luggage going on to private jets does not provide a similar security benefit as it may for scheduled airline services. For customs there are separate spot checks, but usually on arrival as it usually doesn’t make much sense to be concerned about illegal exports. Human trafficking is a separate issue, FBO staff and private jet operators should be trained to combat such just like normal airlines do. That training works, I’ve been on the receiving end of it as a suspected human trafficker. (My friend told the gate agent to look at my phone for his ticket because he doesn’t own one. We were both briefly detained until the airline had someone talk to him in his native language and verify that he’s there by his own free will)
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- rospaya 7y ago
  Are you implying it's ok to blow up your own jet? What if it was planted? What if it's smuggling?

98 points by gyanchawdhary 7y ago

adventured 7y ago

http://archive.is/ph2Ys http://archive.is/ph2Ys

dannylandau 7y ago
Thanks

anonu 7y ago

> would need extremely generous compensation for the risks involved, perhaps pushing the total cost to $15 million or more. That's an insane number. And though Ghosn could probably afford that, the cost/benefit would be off kilter. Private Jet Flights were probably under $200k (source https://jettly.com/charter_cost_estimator https://jettly.com/charter_cost_estimator) Hiring a half dozen ex-marines to scout out an escape route, 3 months of planning, maybe $1mm at most...

MiroF 7y ago
> Hiring a half dozen ex-marines to scout out an escape route, 3 months of planning, maybe $1mm at most... That's a huge lowball.
Thorrez 7y ago
The cost is because everyone you hire risks going to jail, and they won't face that risk without adequate compensation.
55555 7y ago
You might spend a decade in prison or, failing that, you will probably never be able to go to Japan ever again.
- adventured 7y ago
  And he's 65 years old. It'd be very likely that he would be losing the last good decade of his life - in terms of health - to prison. Even for very healthy and long-lived persons there is a big difference between life at 65 and life at 75. He also has four children and a wife. His fortune was estimated at around $200 million going in and supposedly stands at closer to $100 million now (per sources like Bloomberg and CNBC). If necessary I'd spend $15 million / 15% of my $100 million for those ten years; that's an easy trade. Be modestly cautious and you'd get it back passively with little worry.
- jasonjei 7y ago
  I doubt he’d be able to return to Japan even if he served his sentence. I suspect he would be deported immediately after serving his prison term.
  - 55555 7y ago
    I was referring to the people who smuggled him out.
pyb 7y ago
You need to add Ghosn's bail money to that, another 5 million at least.

mrtksn 7y ago

The guy who works for the Turkish aviation company claims that he was threatened with his family being harmed if he doesn't participate in the operation. Considering that he is in jail for his participation, it is fair to assume that he is not one of the well-paid-identity-protected people in the operation and he did what he did to protect his family. I am not very comfortable with glorifying this story, why exactly this guy's life and family is more important than the airline professional's? Although I would watch the movie about it, this whole ordeal feels wrong as it resembles a story where justice is only for the wealthy and collateral damage to unrelated people's lives is O.K. as if those people are not real humans but NPC that just vanish when you're done with them.

cheema33 7y ago
"The guy who works for the Turkish aviation company claims that he was threatened with his family being harmed" That would be my excuse also if I got caught.
- mrtksn 7y ago
  Why he would be caught when the others are not? The guy was not caught in a police chase, they simply looked at the records to see who is involved. If he was getting his fair share of the money and protection he would have been boarding the plane with the rest of the team as it is obvious that the authorities would be coming after him. Why they are coming after him? Because Ghosn entered Lebanon legally, exposing the plane he came in, thus compromising everyone in the logistics of the operation while protecting the reportedly well-paid organizers. This Ghosn guy looks like the kind of a car company CEO that would crunch the number and decide not to do a recall of the fatally faulty cars if the legal fees are less than the cost of a recall.
- clamprecht 7y ago
  And if your family were actually threatened, what would be your excuse?
  - darawk 7y ago

Larrikin 7y ago

I don't understand why the media keeps writing these glowing stories about a rich guy using his money to skip bail before a trial and also using that money to make sure he is never tried for the crimes he has been accused of.

iknowalot 7y ago
He's a model CEO, speaks 5-6 languages fluently and very successfully ran two major car companies at the same time. How do you not write a story about him?
lvturner 7y ago
It's also the kind of story that would (and probably will) make for a blockbuster movie
- Balgair 7y ago
  It's all just so slap-stick dystopic and zeitgeisty. There's a very strong The Road to Gandolfo vibe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Gandolfo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Gandolfo
mcthrowpants 7y ago
You "don't understand" because you failed to do the reading and thus have zero background for knee-jerk "rich guy" comments. Google 'hostage justice' and learn how to learn.
jonathanstrange 7y ago
Because they highlight the extreme injustice of the Japanese justice system, which has been documented in numerous cases and is also reflected in figures - state prosecutors virtually never loose a case, people are kept without access to lawyers for weeks, etc. Some of this I already knew but I've learned a lot more from the Ghosn case.
closeparen 7y ago
Are you kidding? Rich and famous man fallen from grace, boardroom coup, individual takes on the state, retired special operators on a dangerous mission, outlaw on the run. Each one of those tropes in isolation is worth several Hollywood blockbusters. Now a real world story hits all of them? Of course they're going to write about it breathlessly. This is one of the coolest narratives ever to actually happen. The public doesn't get terribly excited over crimes against shareholders. Ghosn's theory of the case is plausible and a good story, so the press will tend to entertain it. And with two oligarchical factions in a pissing match, one having better access to the tools of state doesn't really elevate its moral standing. In fact, they both seem to own parts of different states. This plotline would be right at home in Billions. Probably get panned by critics for being over the top, honestly.

blackrock 7y ago

Extradite him back to Japan. And arrest all that were accomplice to his escape. When did these people think that they are above the law? They made a mockery of the criminal justice system. And they once again proved that those with money and power are above the law.

jeffrallen 7y ago
National sovereignty is still a thing. If Lebanon thinks that Japan's legal system is not respecting their citizen's human rights, they should not extradite. If Lebanon does nothing within it's own legal system, then you can criticize them if you want for giving rich people impunity.
- aflag 7y ago
  Most countries don't extraditate their own citizens regardless of the crime. I don't even know about a country that would extraditate a citizen in this case.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    It's unusual but Mexico did extradite El Chapo to the US.
  - swarnie_ 7y ago
    Still waiting on Anne Sacoolas, whenever you're ready America.
vxNsr 7y ago
A criminal justice system that wins 100% of the cases it prosecutes makes a mockery of the system. Same way a dictator who wins 100% of the vote.
- blackrock 7y ago
  Criminal prosecutors (District Attorneys) in the United States have a near 100% conviction rate. This is because they selectively choose the cases they want to prosecute. By your logic, are you also saying the United States makes a mockery of the criminal justice system? So if you get convicted of a crime in the US, then you’d better pray to God that it isn’t handled by the DA.

ghostcluster 7y ago

The Japanese nationalism angle is fascinating. He joined the French Renault with Japanese Nissan and Mitsubishi. He claims that fears that he was attempting to merge the companies further prompted the corruption charges in Japan. When I first read about this story, I thought it was an open and shut case that Ghosn was guilty. But now I'd like to hear the full story behind the initial accusations.

mytailorisrich 7y ago
It's not the first time this angle is mentioned or that foreign executives in Japan have similar problems (though not as big but he was the highest profile one as well). See this from 2012 (with Ghosn being mentioned as the "most successful foreign CEO at a Japanese company". Well...) : https://www.ft.com/content/fb6974b0-9066-11e1-8cdc-00144feab49a https://www.ft.com/content/fb6974b0-9066-11e1-8cdc-00144feab...
lkramer 7y ago
It does seem to be very hard to be a foreign CEO in Japan, especially if you're a bit flamboyant and are used to be treated as a superstar. That said, Ghosn has been accused of very similar things elsewhere: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-sec-nissan/nissan-ghosn-settle-sec-claims-over-undisclosed-compensation-idUSKBN1W81NY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-sec-nissan/nissan-gho... The real difference seems to be that he wasn't able to bribe his way out...

mcthrowpants 7y ago

Japan, like the (irrelvant whatabout) US, uses process as punishment. Google 'Hostage Justice'

ryanlol 7y ago

So what’s the deal with Japan supposedly regularly xraying luggage going onto private jets? That’s not the norm in most of the world. Generally you xray for security, not for customs purposes. Nobody is going to bring a bomb on their own (or rented) private jet.

rv-de 7y ago
I know that in Germany those security measures are only in place at large public airports. Small airports where private jets are coming and going don't check luggage. I think this problem exists in most countries. This is possibly how Kashoggi's body got flown out or how sheiks return fled daughters and wifes. (https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/sicherheitsluecken-an-flugplaetzen-reiche-werden-nicht-kontrolliert/22852408.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/sicherheitsluecken-...)
- ryanlol 7y ago
  >I think this problem exists in most countries. Why is this a problem? The purported reason for checking luggage is security. Checking luggage going on to private jets does not provide a similar security benefit as it may for scheduled airline services. For customs there are separate spot checks, but usually on arrival as it usually doesn’t make much sense to be concerned about illegal exports. Human trafficking is a separate issue, FBO staff and private jet operators should be trained to combat such just like normal airlines do. That training works, I’ve been on the receiving end of it as a suspected human trafficker. (My friend told the gate agent to look at my phone for his ticket because he doesn’t own one. We were both briefly detained until the airline had someone talk to him in his native language and verify that he’s there by his own free will)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
rospaya 7y ago
Are you implying it's ok to blow up your own jet? What if it was planted? What if it's smuggling?