6 ms·

From a Dutch point of view, would you save money by mimicking our University system? So no sports, no stadiums, no (or less) scholarships, privatise fraternitie

From a Dutch point of view, would you save money by mimicking our University system? So no sports, no stadiums, no (or less) scholarships, privatise fraternities, privatise dorms, privatise cafeteria, privatise extracurricular activities, six-figure cap on income for all staff. We have a projected average student debt of only €21,000 which I believe is less than US students.

garmaine 7y ago
Fraternities are not publicly funded, no?
- systemtest 7y ago
  My knowledge of US fraternities is limited to what is portrayed in Hollywood movies. Are they not funded by the associated University? What about the housing they have? Apologies if my view is limited.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > My knowledge of US fraternities is limited to what is portrayed in Hollywood movies. Are they not funded by the associated University? Generally not, they are funded by members and alums.
  - garmaine 7y ago
    Privately funded, privately owned AFAIK. The fraternities are typically off campus for that reason.
- mcv 7y ago
  Actually, for the largest fraternities/student unions in Netherland, the board often gets paid by the university. Not the smaller ones, though (and it's the larger ones that cause all of the problems).
- samvher 7y ago
  They sometimes get some support from universities but generally they need to fund themselves or use donations from alumni.
VoidWhisperer 7y ago
The issue with removing scholarships is that there are some groups of people that would preclude from being able to seek higher education at all - There are plenty of people in the US who absolutely cannot afford college without taking on loans or scholarships, and in many cases they may require the scholarships if they are unable to get the loans that they need (IE they have extremely bad credit). Also, random side tangent, but I doubt you'd be able to convince America to get rid of college sports, it is too big of a thing here..
- matsemann 7y ago
  In Norway the student loan is from the government, and everyone qualifies.
- systemtest 7y ago
  > Also, random side tangent, but I doubt you'd be able to convince America to get rid of college sports, it is too big of a thing here.. Times change. Old wealthy white males selecting men based on athletic abilities, big muscles and ability to work hard and then not paying them for their work in return for free housing. We used to call that slavery, now we call it college sports.
  - bogomipz 7y ago
    Hasn't there already been a shot across the bow on this racket though with California’s Fair Pay to Play Act? [1] [1] https://www.npr.org/2019/09/30/765834549/college-athletes-in-california-can-now-be-paid-under-fair-pay-to-play-act https://www.npr.org/2019/09/30/765834549/college-athletes-in...
    - srndsnd 7y ago
      Sort of, but not entirely. The law doesn't mandate that universities pay for the athletes to play for their school, but rather that athletes can profit off their likeness and image. So, a football player could be paid by the local car dealership to go sign autographs as part of an in-store promotion, rather than receiving a stipend or salary from the school.
snapetom 7y ago
The American university athletics business (mega stadiums, outrageous salaries for coaches, etc.) is commonly misunderstood even by Americans, let alone the world. Athletic departments operate as separate business entities from the University. What this actually means varies from state to state and university to university. Some are private corporations, some are government entities, some are non-profits. However, in general these things are true: No, the university does not directly pay a football coach 5 million a year. No, the university does not pay half a billion dollars to build a stadium. Athletics gets it revenue from four main sources. 1) Apparel licensing. Often any piece of clothing with the university's logo often goes to the athletics department, not the school. (again, varies) 2) Ticket sales, concession, and parking sales for sports events 3) Television rights 4) Booster donations. The last two can be a huge, huge part of the athletics department budget. For better or for worse, university athletics is an egotistical playground for rich alumni. As an example, Texas A&M pays Jimbo Fisher $7.5 million a year to be their head coach. However, we earned $43 million alone from television rights in 2018. An Athletics Director's job is really to worry about #4. #3 takes care of itself via conference membership. 1 and 2 are the responsibilities of operational underlings. If done right, the athletics department gives back profits directly to the university. Usually it breaks even, but even then, it's not really a break even. Athletics scholarships is a money transfer from the athletics department to the university for the athlete's tuition. This is typically around 20k per year per athlete. If done wrong, a little money goes from the academic side to athletics. Rutgers University is one of the "most subsidized" athletics programs. That "subsidy" in 2018 was $10 million out of a 1.5 trillion dollar budget. In the big picture things, 0.6% of your budget for branding and facilities use rights isn't that awful. TL;DR - University athletics operates as a separate legal business entity from University academics. Claims that "you're stealing money from the math department to pay for sports!" often isn't true.
- mathgeek 7y ago
  Can you provide some references for the general and school-specific claims you’ve made? The specific example of Rutgers is great but the broader claims definitely deserve some supporting evidence.
rayiner 7y ago
Average student debt in the U.S. is about $30,000 (27,900 euros). That's 40% higher than in the Netherlands. But average starting salary of a college graduate in the U.S. ($4,000 per month gross) is also 40% higher than in the Netherlands ($2,900). But costs in our system are out of control. University of Maryland has only 25% more students than University of Amsterdam (30,000 versus 40,000). But it has twice as many staff (about 5,000 versus 10,000) and triple the budget ($670 million versus $2 billion).
- himlion 7y ago
  I'm not sure if this is different between the USA and the Netherlands, but for the later almost all of that debt was used for living expenses instead of tuituon. Typically tuition would be 2k a year, so 8k for a 4 year degree obtained on schedule.
IkmoIkmo 7y ago
Our debt is in part due to heavily subsidised tuition fees. Students cost about $15k a year, of which only 3k is paid as tuition and the remainder by the government. In the US many students average 10k tuition fees, or a multiplier for private universities. 0% interest also helps prevent debt from blowing up here. And most students having multiple world top 5% universities within 1 hour by free public transport, also helps as students can spend part of their student life living at home, it's a lifestyle choice, not a necessity for many to move out.
koffiezet 7y ago
As a Belgian: student debt? What's that? Seriously. The first time I heard about this concept was when I was well in my 20's about a guy in the UK. It boggles my mind why anyone would think it's a good idea to put people that early in their lives in debt.
- jtms 7y ago
  Does Belgium distribute the cost of higher education across the taxpayer base? In other words, is university “free” for Belgium?
  - koffiezet 7y ago
    Yes it's mostly tax-funded, and I'm fine with that tbh, in my eyes it's a bit the same as a healthcare system. Your situation at home shouldn't limit your health situation or educational potential. It's also not "free" for everybody. How much you pay also depends on situation your household is in (mostly a combination from total income and how many kids you have). It's possible that you have to pay nothing, or in worst case something like €5000/year for university, but then you're in situation where you can easily afford it (healthy upper/mid class double income and only one kid).
- systemtest 7y ago
  People that have a university degree in the Netherlands will generally have a good life and a high income. They can repay this debt without much trouble. You will pay it back based on your income and there is no intrest on it. It's an investment in your life. On average your income will double. The alternative is having the rest of the population pay for your education. Even the ones with a low wage and no or low education. That doesn't seem fair to them.
  - mrguyorama 7y ago
    This is the exact same story American students were told for so long. If/when it stops being true you end up fucking over at least an entire generation
  - 7y ago
rkuykendall-com 7y ago
> So no sports, no stadiums As much as I hate it, in Texas, college Football is a profit center and the only way to get serious research funding from the state.
- Junk_Collector 7y ago
  I also strongly dislike the focus on college football but Texas has close to 100 universities as well as many additional research institutions (that can confer a phD) and many of those have serious research funding without a sports team. University of Texas systems has 14 universities alone, and only 1 football team. Personally, I think High School Football and funding is a much larger problem in Texas.
  - snapetom 7y ago
    There are three. Austin, El Paso, and San Antonio all have football teams.
rayhendricks 7y ago
Yes that would be ideal. Also start paying NCAA athletes. There is way to much added on to American universities in terms of student services and endless beuracracy. We do have the community college systems which are less or free in the case of running start [WA] or IB in other states.

garmaine 7y ago

Fraternities are not publicly funded, no?

systemtest 7y ago
My knowledge of US fraternities is limited to what is portrayed in Hollywood movies. Are they not funded by the associated University? What about the housing they have? Apologies if my view is limited.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > My knowledge of US fraternities is limited to what is portrayed in Hollywood movies. Are they not funded by the associated University? Generally not, they are funded by members and alums.
- garmaine 7y ago
  Privately funded, privately owned AFAIK. The fraternities are typically off campus for that reason.
mcv 7y ago
Actually, for the largest fraternities/student unions in Netherland, the board often gets paid by the university. Not the smaller ones, though (and it's the larger ones that cause all of the problems).
samvher 7y ago
They sometimes get some support from universities but generally they need to fund themselves or use donations from alumni.

VoidWhisperer 7y ago

The issue with removing scholarships is that there are some groups of people that would preclude from being able to seek higher education at all - There are plenty of people in the US who absolutely cannot afford college without taking on loans or scholarships, and in many cases they may require the scholarships if they are unable to get the loans that they need (IE they have extremely bad credit). Also, random side tangent, but I doubt you'd be able to convince America to get rid of college sports, it is too big of a thing here..

matsemann 7y ago
In Norway the student loan is from the government, and everyone qualifies.
systemtest 7y ago
> Also, random side tangent, but I doubt you'd be able to convince America to get rid of college sports, it is too big of a thing here.. Times change. Old wealthy white males selecting men based on athletic abilities, big muscles and ability to work hard and then not paying them for their work in return for free housing. We used to call that slavery, now we call it college sports.
- bogomipz 7y ago
  Hasn't there already been a shot across the bow on this racket though with California’s Fair Pay to Play Act? [1] [1] https://www.npr.org/2019/09/30/765834549/college-athletes-in-california-can-now-be-paid-under-fair-pay-to-play-act https://www.npr.org/2019/09/30/765834549/college-athletes-in...
  - srndsnd 7y ago
    Sort of, but not entirely. The law doesn't mandate that universities pay for the athletes to play for their school, but rather that athletes can profit off their likeness and image. So, a football player could be paid by the local car dealership to go sign autographs as part of an in-store promotion, rather than receiving a stipend or salary from the school.

snapetom 7y ago

The American university athletics business (mega stadiums, outrageous salaries for coaches, etc.) is commonly misunderstood even by Americans, let alone the world. Athletic departments operate as separate business entities from the University. What this actually means varies from state to state and university to university. Some are private corporations, some are government entities, some are non-profits. However, in general these things are true: No, the university does not directly pay a football coach 5 million a year. No, the university does not pay half a billion dollars to build a stadium. Athletics gets it revenue from four main sources. 1) Apparel licensing. Often any piece of clothing with the university's logo often goes to the athletics department, not the school. (again, varies) 2) Ticket sales, concession, and parking sales for sports events 3) Television rights 4) Booster donations. The last two can be a huge, huge part of the athletics department budget. For better or for worse, university athletics is an egotistical playground for rich alumni. As an example, Texas A&M pays Jimbo Fisher $7.5 million a year to be their head coach. However, we earned $43 million alone from television rights in 2018. An Athletics Director's job is really to worry about #4. #3 takes care of itself via conference membership. 1 and 2 are the responsibilities of operational underlings. If done right, the athletics department gives back profits directly to the university. Usually it breaks even, but even then, it's not really a break even. Athletics scholarships is a money transfer from the athletics department to the university for the athlete's tuition. This is typically around 20k per year per athlete. If done wrong, a little money goes from the academic side to athletics. Rutgers University is one of the "most subsidized" athletics programs. That "subsidy" in 2018 was $10 million out of a 1.5 trillion dollar budget. In the big picture things, 0.6% of your budget for branding and facilities use rights isn't that awful. TL;DR - University athletics operates as a separate legal business entity from University academics. Claims that "you're stealing money from the math department to pay for sports!" often isn't true.

mathgeek 7y ago
Can you provide some references for the general and school-specific claims you’ve made? The specific example of Rutgers is great but the broader claims definitely deserve some supporting evidence.

rayiner 7y ago

Average student debt in the U.S. is about $30,000 (27,900 euros). That's 40% higher than in the Netherlands. But average starting salary of a college graduate in the U.S. ($4,000 per month gross) is also 40% higher than in the Netherlands ($2,900). But costs in our system are out of control. University of Maryland has only 25% more students than University of Amsterdam (30,000 versus 40,000). But it has twice as many staff (about 5,000 versus 10,000) and triple the budget ($670 million versus $2 billion).

himlion 7y ago
I'm not sure if this is different between the USA and the Netherlands, but for the later almost all of that debt was used for living expenses instead of tuituon. Typically tuition would be 2k a year, so 8k for a 4 year degree obtained on schedule.

IkmoIkmo 7y ago

Our debt is in part due to heavily subsidised tuition fees. Students cost about $15k a year, of which only 3k is paid as tuition and the remainder by the government. In the US many students average 10k tuition fees, or a multiplier for private universities. 0% interest also helps prevent debt from blowing up here. And most students having multiple world top 5% universities within 1 hour by free public transport, also helps as students can spend part of their student life living at home, it's a lifestyle choice, not a necessity for many to move out.

koffiezet 7y ago

As a Belgian: student debt? What's that? Seriously. The first time I heard about this concept was when I was well in my 20's about a guy in the UK. It boggles my mind why anyone would think it's a good idea to put people that early in their lives in debt.

jtms 7y ago
Does Belgium distribute the cost of higher education across the taxpayer base? In other words, is university “free” for Belgium?
- koffiezet 7y ago
  Yes it's mostly tax-funded, and I'm fine with that tbh, in my eyes it's a bit the same as a healthcare system. Your situation at home shouldn't limit your health situation or educational potential. It's also not "free" for everybody. How much you pay also depends on situation your household is in (mostly a combination from total income and how many kids you have). It's possible that you have to pay nothing, or in worst case something like €5000/year for university, but then you're in situation where you can easily afford it (healthy upper/mid class double income and only one kid).
systemtest 7y ago
People that have a university degree in the Netherlands will generally have a good life and a high income. They can repay this debt without much trouble. You will pay it back based on your income and there is no intrest on it. It's an investment in your life. On average your income will double. The alternative is having the rest of the population pay for your education. Even the ones with a low wage and no or low education. That doesn't seem fair to them.
- mrguyorama 7y ago
  This is the exact same story American students were told for so long. If/when it stops being true you end up fucking over at least an entire generation
- 7y ago

rkuykendall-com 7y ago

> So no sports, no stadiums As much as I hate it, in Texas, college Football is a profit center and the only way to get serious research funding from the state.

Junk_Collector 7y ago
I also strongly dislike the focus on college football but Texas has close to 100 universities as well as many additional research institutions (that can confer a phD) and many of those have serious research funding without a sports team. University of Texas systems has 14 universities alone, and only 1 football team. Personally, I think High School Football and funding is a much larger problem in Texas.
- snapetom 7y ago
  There are three. Austin, El Paso, and San Antonio all have football teams.

rayhendricks 7y ago

Yes that would be ideal. Also start paying NCAA athletes. There is way to much added on to American universities in terms of student services and endless beuracracy. We do have the community college systems which are less or free in the case of running start [WA] or IB in other states.