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Question to people familiar with the topic: do dispatchers keep the 3D picture of planes and airways in their head or is there any computer aid for preventing t
by mynegation 7y ago
Question to people familiar with the topic: do dispatchers keep the 3D picture of planes and airways in their head or is there any computer aid for preventing things like this? Ideally the (erroneous) instructions (to drop the altitude too low in the airway) given to the A320 should have been registered by the computer and flagged as dangerous well before someone realizes there is another plane mere 200 feet beneath.
- _-___________-_ 7y agoThere are alerts, both visual and aural, in modern ATC setups when aircraft are within a certain distance of an intersecting trajectory in time and space, and additionally when they are within a certain proximity. However, the intended instruction was safe. The problem was that the ATCer read it out incorrectly. I am not aware of a system that does voice recognition on what is said by the controller to check that it matches the programmed instruction!
- concerned_user 7y agoI think it was changed that TCAS alert from the plane always takes priority over the ATC. After this incident: 1 July 2002, Bashkirian Airlines Flight 2937, a Tupolev Tu-154 passenger jet, and DHL Flight 611, a Boeing 757 cargo jet, collided in mid-air over Überlingen.
- _-___________-_ 7y agoYes, TCAS takes priority over ATC, but I didn't mention TCAS in my comment, so I'm not sure what you mean :) GP was asking about whether the ATC controller gets alerts, and I was replying to say that yes, there are several types of alert that should trigger in this situation, in a modern ATC setup. These aren't related to TCAS but are alerts at the ATC location.
- concerned_user 7y agoIt is just an addition to whole topic of alerts that even if in some setups ATC doesn't have the alert or is overloaded to react in timely fashion that ATC it is not the only thing preventing the collision, that there are systems and procedures on the plane. Maybe I should've replied to original comments instead but yours seemed like a good place. Sorry for causing confusion.
- 0xcafecafe 7y agoWasn't this the incident where a bunch of kids died and the grieving parent of one stabbed the ATC person responsible? Sadness all around...
- concerned_user 7y agoYes, it was this accident.
- koboll 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaly_Kaloyev https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaly_Kaloyev The 'Return' section is sickening. Russia has a cancerously warped morality.
- 0xcafecafe 7y ago""Kaloyev is a hero. Those guilty of causing air crashes often remain unpunished. Such a radical punishment is the only way to make them carry responsibility for their crimes," said Vitaly Yusko, a member of a Russian organisation dedicated to helping the relatives of air crash victims. " Ughh that was bad to read..
- HarryHirsch 7y agoConsider long and hard the case of Radonda Vaught, the nurse who killed a patient at Vanderbilt Hospital in a most dreadful manner. The investigation showed that she was overworked and stupid, and that patient safety at Vanderbilt is so bad that you should go elsewhere if you value your life. There were no consequences for anyone, no changes in protocol or leadership; the institution covered up the nurse's error to such a degree that she still has her license. The nursing board is now looking into the case again, but that's only because of the public outcry. There was a Gofundme campaign spearheaded by a well-known online nursing community that raised > 100 kUSD for the defense; that page mostly said that she is a nice person. (That might be at the recommendation of the defense, but it doesn't matter; there is no situational insight, consequently there won't be any improvement.) Z-Dogg MD came out in her defense as well, citing "just culture". From the outside is looks that since leadership gets off by default, consequently the scapegoat at the bottom that exposed the systemic failings should get of scot-free, too. In the Ueberlingen case, at least someone had justice administered to him.
- kome 7y ago"to" and "two" are just too similar in englihs, perhaps they should use some other sign or language for nearly homophonic words
- bboreham 7y ago“to” is instructed not to be used in pilot/atc conversations, for this reason.
- _-___________-_ 7y agoFor example: descend and maintain flight level three two zero
- andrewg 7y agoSame goes with “for”, which you sometimes hear in readbacks like “leaving 4000 for 3000”. It should be something unambiguous like “4000 descending 3000” instead.
- bboreham 7y agoHowever “cleared for takeoff” is standard.
- _-___________-_ 7y agoIt is hard to see how that one can be ambiguous.
- Piskvorrr 7y agoThis is one of the explicitly unambiguous phrases introduced after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster#Probable_cause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster#Prob... ; note that the meaning of "cleared for (allowed to) takeoff" is completely different from "leaving 3000 for (to the new level of) 2000". In essence, a different word entirely; one of the reasons it is avoided except in complete, unambiguously defined phrases. Quoth Wikipedia: The word "takeoff" is now spoken only when the actual takeoff clearance is given, or when cancelling that same clearance (i.e. "cleared for takeoff" or "cancel takeoff clearance"). Up until that point, aircrew and controllers should use the word "departure" in its place (e.g. "ready for departure").
- mariushn 7y agoDoes this make an ATC person a single point of failure? If that person is bad intended or is tired, can they simply cause 2 planes to crash?
- _-___________-_ 7y agoIn large ATC locations, no - there are always multiple ATCers involved in each position. For smaller locations, there could be a single person working each position without supervision (or the supervisor could be asleep) or even a single person in the entire location (e.g. a small tower). That single person should still not be able to cause two planes to crash, because pilots don't blindly follow the instructions ATC gives them. They will be aware of other traffic nearby, through ATC telling them about the traffic, making visual contact with the traffic (when in visual conditions), and hearing the other traffic on the radio (this is an issue in, for example, Spain where the radio communication is often in Spanish and many pilots flying there don't understand Spanish). There is also a system called TCAS which will alert pilots to nearby traffic, as well as giving instructions for collision avoidance to both aircraft in the case that they are on colliding (or near-colliding) trajectories, with these instructions overriding anything ATC has instructed. It's only when the holes in all of these systems line up that a collision can happen -- look up the Swiss Cheese model.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mariushn 7y agoThanks!
- fyfy18 7y ago> this is an issue in, for example, Spain where the radio communication is often in Spanish and many pilots flying there don't understand Spanish How does that happen? I was under the impression that all flight communication was supposed to be performed in English, even in countries where English is not very commonly spoken (e.g. Spain).
- marcosdumay 7y agoThere are displays of the planes on their airways. I honestly don't understand how airspace controllers are able to read those displays, but they do, and quite quickly.
- Piskvorrr 7y agoJust like hexdumps, or any other data-dense format: humans are highly capable of learning to read and understand them, quickly and precisely.