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A generation was raised on usable designs which clearly communicated interactability with a consistent visual language. It is only natural that they would come

A generation was raised on usable designs which clearly communicated interactability with a consistent visual language. It is only natural that they would come to think of computers as inherently ordered, understandable devices. Machines had always been this way. It was obvious to this new generation that the affordances of youth were purely redundant. Clutter. Overhead. Junk! Widget by widget, pixel by pixel, bevels were smoothed. Tasteful gradients and transparency replaced harsh outlines. Explanatory text was tucked away. Manuals became brochures, then a lonely slip of paper with a URL. Maybe a QR code. Now my screen is the very picture of elegance and sophistication. There are no extraneous details. Indeed, there are no details. I caress my phone's surface gently, hoping to see a sliver of its rapturous visage peel back, hinting that I have found the first step in the puzzle box of its interaction model. Alas, no dice. Maybe I can hunt down a how-to video... to show me how to hunt down a video...

agumonkey 7y ago
It was a crossroad of limited computing affordance and abstraction necessity. I grew up in CGI land, basically high end CGI programs were what the latest web app is. Reactive redrawing of free form geometries. I wanted this to be mainstream so bad. I got old and it became slightly true. Not keeping aside the drift of website content and pop overs.. something hit me. My brain doesn't want real time and free floating. I want abstraction, solid, and patient. It even contradicts my love for lisp repls (another form of low latency feedback). I look at 90s desktop GUIs with a bit more love and appreciation. They were limited just enough, the limitation forced abstraction and organization. And most of the time it was just right (you could remove spooky side effects, and add a bit of genericity it wouldn't hurt).
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  UI framework designers these days really undervalue “not spooky”.
- mntmoss 7y ago
  I myself can't tell if this feeling is just me getting older. I liked the shiny dynamic stuff when I was younger. Gradually I found myself ignoring more of it and developing more specific rules for what I wanted out of the UX. When a recent thread on "calm computing" mentioned Fraidycat I took to it immediately. It's nearly the antithesis of the news feed - there's no repetitive rhythm to it, although there is a bit of clicking around. There was a time when I actually wanted news feeds, I would cycle through a few sites and F5 constantly. I know a few twenty-somethings who are still falling for shiny stuff. I don't think that's going away, but I do think the overall culture will come to realize that it's junk food computing.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    I do think it's both side of the getting old coin. In one way we're getting cranky. But we're also getting wiser. We don't want more data, we want better signal (quantity/quality).
ordinaryperson 7y ago
Compounding this frustration (on iOS at least) is stuff like "force touch" and hidden toolbars. Depending on how hard you press a button you might get a totally different UI interaction. Are others good at knowing exactly how many newtons of force it takes to follow a hyperlink instead of triggering this horrid mini-preview window? Maybe that's why Jonny Ive made millions of dollars while I work like a stiff for a living. Want to open a new tab in mobile Safari while on a webpage? Oh I must tap the invisible button bar at the bottom. So obvious. I just wish Apple et al. didn't force these choices on us, that we could disable silliness like force touch and hidden toolbars. But alas one cannot.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  Force touch is the best evidence we have that designers have lost their power at Apple. The best thing Steve Jobs did was hire serious designers and defend their ideas against the rest of the organization. That’s clearly not happening anymore. My guess is that “Designer at Apple” became such a desirable title that the design roles have been taken over by wannabees.
  - zapzupnz 7y ago
    Force Touch is on its way out. Has been for about two generations of iPhone. There's now Haptic Touch which is nothing but a long-press with better feedback.
    - thom 7y ago
      All this means is that instead of people accidentally discovering the obscure behaviour as they do now (and then working out how to carefully tap out of it), they'll just never find it. That's certainly less annoying to me, who has never used any of these weird popup menus, but doesn't seem a massive improvement overall.
      - zapzupnz 7y ago
        > they'll just never find it Why not? People always complained about accidentally activating Force Touch when trying to long press. Long press has a precedent in iOS; 3D/Force Touch never did.
soheil 7y ago
> It is only natural that they would come to think of computers as inherently ordered, understandable devices. until you get a blue screen of death... Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that modern UI is complete garbage.
- spectramax 7y ago
  Come on, UI design and the OS crashing down are two separate orthogonal issues. Yes, they culminate at the end as “User experience”, but the OP is clearly talking about UI elements and how their functional design is eroding away. What’s that to do with BSOD!!??
  - xcv321 7y ago
    Sounds like you probably weren't using computers back in the Win 9x days. For us who remember it, Windows 95 is synonymous with BSOD.
    - spectramax 7y ago
      I did. I get that computers back in the day crashed a lot. BSOD while playing C&C was my childhood. But my point, again, is that computers crashing and UI design are two orthagonal issues.
      - xcv321 7y ago
        Yeah, we already know that. He was talking about computers in general, not just the UI design.
    - Cougher 7y ago
      I was. I remember. I've had the BSOD. But Win95 is not synonymous with it for me.
    - chinesempire 7y ago
      I don't like to downvote comments, but this one is particularly bad. First of all, BSOD where not that common, and for sure they are not what all of "us" remember about Windows 95. Secondly, Amiga and Mac had their own version of the BSOD, there were just far less Amiga and Mac around. Third: Windows 95 bootstrapped the PC gaming era, having the GUI code in the Kernel (for performance reasons) and not having the WHQL to test third party drivers yet, made BSOD popular, because many saw them when they were kids playing some game on their parent's computer. Of course you can do what Apple does, forbid third party drivers and give up to Nvidia cards on your OS. It is not a big deal, right? I'm assuming you also never used a Mac with Mac OS classic and never saw the sad Mac... https://regmedia.co.uk/2015/11/17/sad_mac_face.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2015/11/17/sad_mac_face.jpg
flippyhead 7y ago
Idk, my mom found windows 95 etc very hard to use but has no trouble with her iPhone, iPad or even a Mac (let alone the TV or can-speak-to appliance). Maybe part of is it is that a lot of problems that required UI solutions before just work magically now. Like file sharing, networking or dealing with different document formats. You don't need nearly as many controls for the most part so the UI can be simpler.
- ptman 7y ago
  You think she learned nothing in the years between?
  - flippyhead 7y ago
    I am embarrassed to say I hadn't considered this actually; and it's a good point. But considering it, no, I don't. She simply doesn't have the mind for it, as far as I can tell.
- eitland 7y ago
  That is actually a good point. Simple stuff might have become simpler. That said I am firmly in the "we lost something between 95 and here" camp for now. And to while it does explain why pads are different it doesn't explain why we needed to mess up the desktop in the process.
  - jopsen 7y ago
    And the market for simple stuff that is simple to do is a lot larger than the desktop market. That's probably what we learned from the iPhone.
    - ldng 7y ago
      Simple UI is better when you have consumer grade "simple" but problems starts when complex pro app start to do "simple" and you get "simplistic stupid"
  - 7y ago
andrepd 7y ago
A consequence of optimising interfaces to look good in screenshots and promo photos, rather than actually being useful? That's the only explanation I can find for the whitespace ridden desktop and phone interfaces that plague us today.
steve1977 7y ago
The box! You opened it, we came.
hatsunearu 7y ago
The stereotypical "old people with tech" shtick is that they don't know how to do things we contemporaries seem trivial. Considering the trend maybe that isn't too unexpected, and I'm also worried that when I get old I'll feel left out and abandoned by this growing tend towards oversimplification
raverbashing 7y ago
I've noticed this happening as well, but I guess every system is built on the affordances and cultural knowledge of the time it was built. The original Macintosh (and Windows before 95) were built for people who were more or less familiar with computers already BUT who didn't know so much about the mouse, etc. (And even if the Mac might have been "easier to use" people wouldn't just jump into an expensive machine without knowing what they would be getting). Hence they would "handhold" more. Even the 1st iPhone was more user friendly (design wise) than the newer ones. Now kids know how to swipe "intuitively" and design will seem less obvious (for people unaccustomed with it) with time.
blattimwind 7y ago
> Now my screen is the very picture of elegance and sophistication. Is it? Windows 10 looks like installing a custom skin on Windows XP went wrong and now you're stuck with "Windows Classic (Flat)" set up for weird colors.
- deanCommie 7y ago
  Thank you. I feel like the world is taking crazy pills. Windows 7 was gorgeous. Windows 8 was a mess but at least the were trying to do something bold with consistency with their Windows Phone Look and Feel. Then Windows 10 shipped and I thought I got some pre alpha developer build accidentally, and it just... Never updated. I've heard iOS be criticized for being overly flat these days but I just got an iPad and found the clickable areas at least visually pleasant, if a bit hidden. Windows 10 is undiscoverable AND ugly.
  - flowerlad 7y ago
    Take a look at this iOS critique https://uxcritique.tumblr.com/ https://uxcritique.tumblr.com/ To me Windows XP’s look & feel was among the best. Except for the fat Window title bar.
    - donatj 7y ago
      XP was playschool. Eww. Windows 2k was great however.
  - ckosidows 7y ago
    Maybe I just don't remember enough about Windows 8, but how is Windows 10 that much worse, in your opinion? I feel like it's the exact same as 8 sans the Metro Start section and a few minor (in my opinion) UI tweaks.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    Windows 3's design was a first shot. Windows 95 was extremely polished and well done. Windows XP was a response to PCs becoming mainstream and figuring what the everyman wanted was more flair and fashion. Windows 7 was a response to desktop Linux (Compiz et al.) capturing people's imaginations. Windows 8 was a response to iOS while trying to avoid Apple's skeuomorphism patents (fortunately). Windows 10 was realizing that none of that really mattered, they already have all the users anyway, so they just need long-term UI stability now.
zouhair 7y ago
I hate Material Design with a passion.
chadlavi 7y ago
Ok boomer
- dang 7y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?

agumonkey 7y ago

It was a crossroad of limited computing affordance and abstraction necessity. I grew up in CGI land, basically high end CGI programs were what the latest web app is. Reactive redrawing of free form geometries. I wanted this to be mainstream so bad. I got old and it became slightly true. Not keeping aside the drift of website content and pop overs.. something hit me. My brain doesn't want real time and free floating. I want abstraction, solid, and patient. It even contradicts my love for lisp repls (another form of low latency feedback). I look at 90s desktop GUIs with a bit more love and appreciation. They were limited just enough, the limitation forced abstraction and organization. And most of the time it was just right (you could remove spooky side effects, and add a bit of genericity it wouldn't hurt).

erikpukinskis 7y ago
UI framework designers these days really undervalue “not spooky”.
mntmoss 7y ago
I myself can't tell if this feeling is just me getting older. I liked the shiny dynamic stuff when I was younger. Gradually I found myself ignoring more of it and developing more specific rules for what I wanted out of the UX. When a recent thread on "calm computing" mentioned Fraidycat I took to it immediately. It's nearly the antithesis of the news feed - there's no repetitive rhythm to it, although there is a bit of clicking around. There was a time when I actually wanted news feeds, I would cycle through a few sites and F5 constantly. I know a few twenty-somethings who are still falling for shiny stuff. I don't think that's going away, but I do think the overall culture will come to realize that it's junk food computing.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  I do think it's both side of the getting old coin. In one way we're getting cranky. But we're also getting wiser. We don't want more data, we want better signal (quantity/quality).

ordinaryperson 7y ago

Compounding this frustration (on iOS at least) is stuff like "force touch" and hidden toolbars. Depending on how hard you press a button you might get a totally different UI interaction. Are others good at knowing exactly how many newtons of force it takes to follow a hyperlink instead of triggering this horrid mini-preview window? Maybe that's why Jonny Ive made millions of dollars while I work like a stiff for a living. Want to open a new tab in mobile Safari while on a webpage? Oh I must tap the invisible button bar at the bottom. So obvious. I just wish Apple et al. didn't force these choices on us, that we could disable silliness like force touch and hidden toolbars. But alas one cannot.

erikpukinskis 7y ago
Force touch is the best evidence we have that designers have lost their power at Apple. The best thing Steve Jobs did was hire serious designers and defend their ideas against the rest of the organization. That’s clearly not happening anymore. My guess is that “Designer at Apple” became such a desirable title that the design roles have been taken over by wannabees.
- zapzupnz 7y ago
  Force Touch is on its way out. Has been for about two generations of iPhone. There's now Haptic Touch which is nothing but a long-press with better feedback.
  - thom 7y ago
    All this means is that instead of people accidentally discovering the obscure behaviour as they do now (and then working out how to carefully tap out of it), they'll just never find it. That's certainly less annoying to me, who has never used any of these weird popup menus, but doesn't seem a massive improvement overall.
    - zapzupnz 7y ago
      > they'll just never find it Why not? People always complained about accidentally activating Force Touch when trying to long press. Long press has a precedent in iOS; 3D/Force Touch never did.

soheil 7y ago

> It is only natural that they would come to think of computers as inherently ordered, understandable devices. until you get a blue screen of death... Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that modern UI is complete garbage.

spectramax 7y ago
Come on, UI design and the OS crashing down are two separate orthogonal issues. Yes, they culminate at the end as “User experience”, but the OP is clearly talking about UI elements and how their functional design is eroding away. What’s that to do with BSOD!!??
- xcv321 7y ago
  Sounds like you probably weren't using computers back in the Win 9x days. For us who remember it, Windows 95 is synonymous with BSOD.
  - spectramax 7y ago
    I did. I get that computers back in the day crashed a lot. BSOD while playing C&C was my childhood. But my point, again, is that computers crashing and UI design are two orthagonal issues.
    - xcv321 7y ago
      Yeah, we already know that. He was talking about computers in general, not just the UI design.
  - Cougher 7y ago
    I was. I remember. I've had the BSOD. But Win95 is not synonymous with it for me.
  - chinesempire 7y ago
    I don't like to downvote comments, but this one is particularly bad. First of all, BSOD where not that common, and for sure they are not what all of "us" remember about Windows 95. Secondly, Amiga and Mac had their own version of the BSOD, there were just far less Amiga and Mac around. Third: Windows 95 bootstrapped the PC gaming era, having the GUI code in the Kernel (for performance reasons) and not having the WHQL to test third party drivers yet, made BSOD popular, because many saw them when they were kids playing some game on their parent's computer. Of course you can do what Apple does, forbid third party drivers and give up to Nvidia cards on your OS. It is not a big deal, right? I'm assuming you also never used a Mac with Mac OS classic and never saw the sad Mac... https://regmedia.co.uk/2015/11/17/sad_mac_face.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2015/11/17/sad_mac_face.jpg

flippyhead 7y ago

Idk, my mom found windows 95 etc very hard to use but has no trouble with her iPhone, iPad or even a Mac (let alone the TV or can-speak-to appliance). Maybe part of is it is that a lot of problems that required UI solutions before just work magically now. Like file sharing, networking or dealing with different document formats. You don't need nearly as many controls for the most part so the UI can be simpler.

ptman 7y ago
You think she learned nothing in the years between?
- flippyhead 7y ago
  I am embarrassed to say I hadn't considered this actually; and it's a good point. But considering it, no, I don't. She simply doesn't have the mind for it, as far as I can tell.
eitland 7y ago
That is actually a good point. Simple stuff might have become simpler. That said I am firmly in the "we lost something between 95 and here" camp for now. And to while it does explain why pads are different it doesn't explain why we needed to mess up the desktop in the process.
- jopsen 7y ago
  And the market for simple stuff that is simple to do is a lot larger than the desktop market. That's probably what we learned from the iPhone.
  - ldng 7y ago
    Simple UI is better when you have consumer grade "simple" but problems starts when complex pro app start to do "simple" and you get "simplistic stupid"
- 7y ago

andrepd 7y ago

A consequence of optimising interfaces to look good in screenshots and promo photos, rather than actually being useful? That's the only explanation I can find for the whitespace ridden desktop and phone interfaces that plague us today.

steve1977 7y ago

The box! You opened it, we came.

hatsunearu 7y ago

The stereotypical "old people with tech" shtick is that they don't know how to do things we contemporaries seem trivial. Considering the trend maybe that isn't too unexpected, and I'm also worried that when I get old I'll feel left out and abandoned by this growing tend towards oversimplification

raverbashing 7y ago

I've noticed this happening as well, but I guess every system is built on the affordances and cultural knowledge of the time it was built. The original Macintosh (and Windows before 95) were built for people who were more or less familiar with computers already BUT who didn't know so much about the mouse, etc. (And even if the Mac might have been "easier to use" people wouldn't just jump into an expensive machine without knowing what they would be getting). Hence they would "handhold" more. Even the 1st iPhone was more user friendly (design wise) than the newer ones. Now kids know how to swipe "intuitively" and design will seem less obvious (for people unaccustomed with it) with time.

blattimwind 7y ago

> Now my screen is the very picture of elegance and sophistication. Is it? Windows 10 looks like installing a custom skin on Windows XP went wrong and now you're stuck with "Windows Classic (Flat)" set up for weird colors.

deanCommie 7y ago
Thank you. I feel like the world is taking crazy pills. Windows 7 was gorgeous. Windows 8 was a mess but at least the were trying to do something bold with consistency with their Windows Phone Look and Feel. Then Windows 10 shipped and I thought I got some pre alpha developer build accidentally, and it just... Never updated. I've heard iOS be criticized for being overly flat these days but I just got an iPad and found the clickable areas at least visually pleasant, if a bit hidden. Windows 10 is undiscoverable AND ugly.
- flowerlad 7y ago
  Take a look at this iOS critique https://uxcritique.tumblr.com/ https://uxcritique.tumblr.com/ To me Windows XP’s look & feel was among the best. Except for the fat Window title bar.
  - donatj 7y ago
    XP was playschool. Eww. Windows 2k was great however.
- ckosidows 7y ago
  Maybe I just don't remember enough about Windows 8, but how is Windows 10 that much worse, in your opinion? I feel like it's the exact same as 8 sans the Metro Start section and a few minor (in my opinion) UI tweaks.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  Windows 3's design was a first shot. Windows 95 was extremely polished and well done. Windows XP was a response to PCs becoming mainstream and figuring what the everyman wanted was more flair and fashion. Windows 7 was a response to desktop Linux (Compiz et al.) capturing people's imaginations. Windows 8 was a response to iOS while trying to avoid Apple's skeuomorphism patents (fortunately). Windows 10 was realizing that none of that really mattered, they already have all the users anyway, so they just need long-term UI stability now.

zouhair 7y ago

I hate Material Design with a passion.

chadlavi 7y ago

Ok boomer

dang 7y ago
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?