9 ms·

The perpetuation of bonded labor in Pakistan

106 points by DanBC 7y ago

BrandoElFollito 7y ago
This is a painful read, from the comfort of an armchair. The worst is that I even have no idea how an individual can help in such situations.
- somebadguy 7y ago
  You can't. It's not your responsibility. Blame the Pakistanis and their culture and their ignorance. Watch as Pakistani cowards say that's not what the country is like and that it's fake news.
- yitchelle 7y ago
  The last sentence of the post shows that he has lost all hope of ever coming out of debt. "In a few years, when my son is old enough, I may have to sell one of his kidneys as well,"
  - mav3rick 7y ago
    This is called a poverty cycle. And the current Nobel Prize winners in Economics have talked a lot about this. The foundation of UBI is based on cases like these.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      They typically do that in the context of countries that are already wealthy for those within that country. You would not be able to do UBI at the level of a country the size and state of Pakistan at present unless you got other countries to pay for it.
      - kingludite 7y ago
        Of course other countries should pay for it.
        imtringued 7y ago
        There is a conflict of interest. Foreign aid won't work because you're effectively paying corrupt politicians to keep their country unstable so that they can collect more foreign aid.
        yorwba 7y ago
        Foreign aid doesn't have to be given to local politicians for them to distribute as they see fit. You can also pay trusted outsiders to do it instead. And the magnitude of repeat payments should probably depend on how much the previous installments helped instead of how bad the situation still is.
      - andai 7y ago
        The other day I was thinking about the proposed UBI program in the states ($1000/month), and wondered what a difference it would make for the poorest people in the world if the same monthly budget was instead divided between all citizens of the world. It ends up being about than $40 a month, but for people living under a dollar a day, that's a huge difference. Unfortunately there is no financial structure in place yet to deliver UBI to every citizen of the world, but it's definitely something worth thinking about.
        jacquesm 7y ago
        It would require a world government with teeth to be able to pull that off, Einstein was a famous proponent of this but even he could not make the case convincingly enough to get people to give it a try. https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/should-we-have-a-world-government-einstein-thought-so https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/should-we-have-a-world-gove...
        yorwba 7y ago
        GiveDirectly is experimenting with that kind of small-sum UBI in eastern Africa: https://www.givedirectly.org/ https://www.givedirectly.org/
        yazan94 7y ago
        I'm no economist, but injecting that much money that fast into an economy opens a whole new can of worms with inflation and currency devaluation right?
        LadyCailin 7y ago
        Yes, but the net value is increased. It’s because giving $20 to a homeless person has a different effect than giving $20 to Jeff Bezos. The homeless person goes and spends it immediately, whereas Jeff Bezos’ spending habits won’t meaningfully change because of that.
        Jagat 7y ago
        Enforcement is going to be pretty hard. It's the thing that Bill Gates talks about when talking about philanthropy. If everyone in the world gets $30 - warlords in Africa, and landlords or local gangsters in other impoverished nations with weak law enforcement will easily be able to extract $25/person from their locality as 'protection money'. Now though, if those thugs at the top end up spending that money on local businesses, they're slowly boosting their economy. But they're more likely to buy smuggled German cars, thus evading local import taxes and funneling that money back into the developed nations with zero gain for the local economy. However, what I've stated is the worst case scenario. More likely than not, that $5 left with individuals is quite a lot in most countries and may end up boosting their economy albeit at a lower scale than what was imagined.
      - SkyBelow 7y ago
        >unless you got other countries to pay for it. Well it is Universal Basic Income, not National Basic Income. One of the fun discussions with UBI is seeing people discuss who should and shouldn't get it.
        jacquesm 7y ago
        All UBI experiments that I'm aware of so far have been confined to a single country.
        SkyBelow 7y ago
        All the ones I recall are extremely limited on a number of fronts. They limited to a small group of people, for a limited time, and generally the funds are quite limited. I personally don't think these even qualify as UBI because some of the proposed positives for UBI do not exist when it has such limits. For example, if you are only getting UBI for 2 years, you have to plan out for the rest of your life after those 2 years and can't make the same choices as if you were being given UBI for life.
        jacquesm 7y ago
        Fully agreed. UBI simply has not yet been tried on a scale and over a span of time that it would qualify as a real trial.
    - mc32 7y ago
      Some middle eastern countries, like Qatar, have what amounts to UBI (guaranteed jobs and free basics). It has resulted in what in the west is called the excess and decadence. Without relying on natural resource extraction, I’m not sure it’s sustainable.
- andrewwharton 7y ago
  I just realised we just spent more on 5 days for a holiday rental over Christmas than this family received for selling 2 kidneys to try and escape their debt. It’s crushing to read stories like these. Surely there must be some sort of structural reform possible to “the way the world works” to prevent this absurd imbalance.
  - adventured 7y ago
    It's an incredible financial challenge, to say the least. In 1960 Pakistan had 25% the population of the US at about 2.7% the GDP per capita of the US. Today Pakistan has 60% of the population of the US at about 2.4% the GDP per capita of the US. The vast majority of developing countries have gained considerable ground on the US over that time on a per capita output basis, Pakistan has lost ground. To bring Pakistan up to the output level per capita of China or Russia (roughly near the world average; plausibly giving them the necessary room to make considerable employment, social welfare and infrastructure improvements) - Pakistan needs to add about $1.8 trillion per year to its economic output, an economy nearly the size of Italy or Brazil. To reach the level of Croatia, their output has to climb by $2.6 trillion per year, an economy the size of France. I don't see how the world can change anything structurally outside of Pakistan, in terms of how the world works, that will dent that enormous scale of a financial problem. Pakistan has to change dramatically internally. China and many other countries have managed that sort of prominent internal change over time, hopefully Pakistan can as well.
    - shkkmo 7y ago
      While the poverty of Pakistan is indeed a problem, I would argue that it is not the cause of this situation. This situation is human exploitation backed by the government. The change needed here requires political, not just economic changes. I would suggest that this form of servitude is part of the cause of Pakistan's limited economic growth. Minimum wage and the ability to declare bankruptcy would go a long way to disrupting this particular status quo.
      - baybal2 7y ago
- deith 7y ago
  You can't, and you don't have to. It's their problem and their responsibility. They have the right to do whatever they want within their sovereign territory, for better or for worse.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
    I feel drawn to this post. I find it difficult not to reply. You are right. It is reasonable to try to do good within your immediate social circle. You can still feel bad for situation that afflicts others AND could very well end up being part of culture in US.
    - deith 7y ago
      My first post was strictly political. Now, about health: it is not good or desirable to feel bad about things you can do nothing about. Any therapist will tell you that.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
        I am arguing self-preservation. What you seem to think is completely detached from you, could very well end up on you rdoorstep. Is that not worth contemplating and worth feeling bad about; if only for a little while?
baybal2 7y ago
Pakistan is the closest thing today to a medieval feudal society. Near no industry, and the upper class is mostly represented by landlords. Bonded kiln labourers are one thing, but there are also a lot of bonded land labourers. Were there any opportunity to make money with labour, things would've changed. See, now if those people were to run away, even then they would have little opportunities to make money elsewhere. Country is knee deep in trade and financial sanctions around the world thanks to India (try sending a wire there from a Western nation, and you will be up for an amazing adventure.) That's not the only impediment to doing exports. You have to add to this that the elites there a very conscious that if the industrialisation will "hit the fan" it will hit the fan on them. Some are working quite actively to lobby against industrialisation, and trying to sabotage it with passive-aggressive style resistance.
- vermontdevil 7y ago
  And they have nuclear bombs
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    That’s a little overblown- they’re kept disassembled and have PALs that the Americans know the code to
    - briandon 7y ago
      Wikipedia, which of course is not infallible, says that Pakistan rejected US offers to share PAL technology but is believed to have developed their own equivalent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#US_security_assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_weapons_of_mass_d...
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  As a Pak- American, I was pretty upset when Yousuf Raza Gilani said at a press conference (when he was PM) if people didn’t like Pakistan what was stopping them from leaving. He clearly wasn’t thinking of these guys. I think that movie Zinda Bhaag was made in response.
toohotatopic 7y ago
Does this have a racial background like the lower castes in India? As far as I am informed, Islam not only spread by sword in India but also because it overcame the caste system. I don't understand how people united in their rejection of castes are willing to maintain slavery. Could it be that Pakistan has many former lower castes members and even after centuries of leaving the caste system behind them, they are unable to overcome their victimhood?
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  This part of Punjab had lower castes but also many clans that didn’t fit neatly into caste system. It’s not clear which is the case here. In India lower caste Muslims are still often endogamous. Christians in Pakistan more often tend to have a lower caste background.
- adictator 7y ago
  That is not correct. Caste system never existed in India, at least not in the same or anti-humane form as in Islam - like Sunni, Shia, Ahmediyas etc. Caste system was an invention of the British & magnified to exponential proportions.
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    Shia and Ahmadiyya are treated badly, but they are not castes (not yet anyway). All British did was freeze what they saw in place.
    - adictator 7y ago
      The British thought that India suffered from the same casteism as Christianity (& Abrahamic religions) in other places, so they tried their best to retrofit Indian society into that model. But they could find no evidence of casteism, so they were forced to artificially make up many "castes" & grouped people based on occupation etc. The people who could not be fitted into any castes were called a tribes, which are now known as scheduled tribes & castes. Otherwise there should have been just 4 castes according to every tenet of Hinduism. Unfortunately, Indians & the GOI have formalized that artificiality & that is the genesis of the caste system. Caste system is nothing but an invention of the British. Caste itself is a Portuguese word, nothing that correlates to Indian / Hinduism.

106 points by DanBC 7y ago

This is a painful read, from the comfort of an armchair. The worst is that I even have no idea how an individual can help in such situations.

somebadguy 7y ago
You can't. It's not your responsibility. Blame the Pakistanis and their culture and their ignorance. Watch as Pakistani cowards say that's not what the country is like and that it's fake news.
yitchelle 7y ago
The last sentence of the post shows that he has lost all hope of ever coming out of debt. "In a few years, when my son is old enough, I may have to sell one of his kidneys as well,"
- mav3rick 7y ago
  This is called a poverty cycle. And the current Nobel Prize winners in Economics have talked a lot about this. The foundation of UBI is based on cases like these.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    They typically do that in the context of countries that are already wealthy for those within that country. You would not be able to do UBI at the level of a country the size and state of Pakistan at present unless you got other countries to pay for it.
    - kingludite 7y ago
      Of course other countries should pay for it.
      - imtringued 7y ago
        There is a conflict of interest. Foreign aid won't work because you're effectively paying corrupt politicians to keep their country unstable so that they can collect more foreign aid.
        yorwba 7y ago
        Foreign aid doesn't have to be given to local politicians for them to distribute as they see fit. You can also pay trusted outsiders to do it instead. And the magnitude of repeat payments should probably depend on how much the previous installments helped instead of how bad the situation still is.
    - andai 7y ago
      The other day I was thinking about the proposed UBI program in the states ($1000/month), and wondered what a difference it would make for the poorest people in the world if the same monthly budget was instead divided between all citizens of the world. It ends up being about than $40 a month, but for people living under a dollar a day, that's a huge difference. Unfortunately there is no financial structure in place yet to deliver UBI to every citizen of the world, but it's definitely something worth thinking about.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        It would require a world government with teeth to be able to pull that off, Einstein was a famous proponent of this but even he could not make the case convincingly enough to get people to give it a try. https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/should-we-have-a-world-government-einstein-thought-so https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/should-we-have-a-world-gove...
      - yorwba 7y ago
        GiveDirectly is experimenting with that kind of small-sum UBI in eastern Africa: https://www.givedirectly.org/ https://www.givedirectly.org/
      - yazan94 7y ago
        I'm no economist, but injecting that much money that fast into an economy opens a whole new can of worms with inflation and currency devaluation right?
        LadyCailin 7y ago
        Yes, but the net value is increased. It’s because giving $20 to a homeless person has a different effect than giving $20 to Jeff Bezos. The homeless person goes and spends it immediately, whereas Jeff Bezos’ spending habits won’t meaningfully change because of that.
      - Jagat 7y ago
        Enforcement is going to be pretty hard. It's the thing that Bill Gates talks about when talking about philanthropy. If everyone in the world gets $30 - warlords in Africa, and landlords or local gangsters in other impoverished nations with weak law enforcement will easily be able to extract $25/person from their locality as 'protection money'. Now though, if those thugs at the top end up spending that money on local businesses, they're slowly boosting their economy. But they're more likely to buy smuggled German cars, thus evading local import taxes and funneling that money back into the developed nations with zero gain for the local economy. However, what I've stated is the worst case scenario. More likely than not, that $5 left with individuals is quite a lot in most countries and may end up boosting their economy albeit at a lower scale than what was imagined.
    - SkyBelow 7y ago
      >unless you got other countries to pay for it. Well it is Universal Basic Income, not National Basic Income. One of the fun discussions with UBI is seeing people discuss who should and shouldn't get it.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        All UBI experiments that I'm aware of so far have been confined to a single country.
        SkyBelow 7y ago
        All the ones I recall are extremely limited on a number of fronts. They limited to a small group of people, for a limited time, and generally the funds are quite limited. I personally don't think these even qualify as UBI because some of the proposed positives for UBI do not exist when it has such limits. For example, if you are only getting UBI for 2 years, you have to plan out for the rest of your life after those 2 years and can't make the same choices as if you were being given UBI for life.
        jacquesm 7y ago
        Fully agreed. UBI simply has not yet been tried on a scale and over a span of time that it would qualify as a real trial.
  - mc32 7y ago
    Some middle eastern countries, like Qatar, have what amounts to UBI (guaranteed jobs and free basics). It has resulted in what in the west is called the excess and decadence. Without relying on natural resource extraction, I’m not sure it’s sustainable.
andrewwharton 7y ago
I just realised we just spent more on 5 days for a holiday rental over Christmas than this family received for selling 2 kidneys to try and escape their debt. It’s crushing to read stories like these. Surely there must be some sort of structural reform possible to “the way the world works” to prevent this absurd imbalance.
- adventured 7y ago
  It's an incredible financial challenge, to say the least. In 1960 Pakistan had 25% the population of the US at about 2.7% the GDP per capita of the US. Today Pakistan has 60% of the population of the US at about 2.4% the GDP per capita of the US. The vast majority of developing countries have gained considerable ground on the US over that time on a per capita output basis, Pakistan has lost ground. To bring Pakistan up to the output level per capita of China or Russia (roughly near the world average; plausibly giving them the necessary room to make considerable employment, social welfare and infrastructure improvements) - Pakistan needs to add about $1.8 trillion per year to its economic output, an economy nearly the size of Italy or Brazil. To reach the level of Croatia, their output has to climb by $2.6 trillion per year, an economy the size of France. I don't see how the world can change anything structurally outside of Pakistan, in terms of how the world works, that will dent that enormous scale of a financial problem. Pakistan has to change dramatically internally. China and many other countries have managed that sort of prominent internal change over time, hopefully Pakistan can as well.
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    While the poverty of Pakistan is indeed a problem, I would argue that it is not the cause of this situation. This situation is human exploitation backed by the government. The change needed here requires political, not just economic changes. I would suggest that this form of servitude is part of the cause of Pakistan's limited economic growth. Minimum wage and the ability to declare bankruptcy would go a long way to disrupting this particular status quo.
    - baybal2 7y ago
deith 7y ago
You can't, and you don't have to. It's their problem and their responsibility. They have the right to do whatever they want within their sovereign territory, for better or for worse.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  I feel drawn to this post. I find it difficult not to reply. You are right. It is reasonable to try to do good within your immediate social circle. You can still feel bad for situation that afflicts others AND could very well end up being part of culture in US.
  - deith 7y ago
    My first post was strictly political. Now, about health: it is not good or desirable to feel bad about things you can do nothing about. Any therapist will tell you that.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
      I am arguing self-preservation. What you seem to think is completely detached from you, could very well end up on you rdoorstep. Is that not worth contemplating and worth feeling bad about; if only for a little while?

baybal2 7y ago

Pakistan is the closest thing today to a medieval feudal society. Near no industry, and the upper class is mostly represented by landlords. Bonded kiln labourers are one thing, but there are also a lot of bonded land labourers. Were there any opportunity to make money with labour, things would've changed. See, now if those people were to run away, even then they would have little opportunities to make money elsewhere. Country is knee deep in trade and financial sanctions around the world thanks to India (try sending a wire there from a Western nation, and you will be up for an amazing adventure.) That's not the only impediment to doing exports. You have to add to this that the elites there a very conscious that if the industrialisation will "hit the fan" it will hit the fan on them. Some are working quite actively to lobby against industrialisation, and trying to sabotage it with passive-aggressive style resistance.

vermontdevil 7y ago
And they have nuclear bombs
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  That’s a little overblown- they’re kept disassembled and have PALs that the Americans know the code to
  - briandon 7y ago
    Wikipedia, which of course is not infallible, says that Pakistan rejected US offers to share PAL technology but is believed to have developed their own equivalent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#US_security_assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_weapons_of_mass_d...
selimthegrim 7y ago
As a Pak- American, I was pretty upset when Yousuf Raza Gilani said at a press conference (when he was PM) if people didn’t like Pakistan what was stopping them from leaving. He clearly wasn’t thinking of these guys. I think that movie Zinda Bhaag was made in response.

toohotatopic 7y ago

Does this have a racial background like the lower castes in India? As far as I am informed, Islam not only spread by sword in India but also because it overcame the caste system. I don't understand how people united in their rejection of castes are willing to maintain slavery. Could it be that Pakistan has many former lower castes members and even after centuries of leaving the caste system behind them, they are unable to overcome their victimhood?

selimthegrim 7y ago
This part of Punjab had lower castes but also many clans that didn’t fit neatly into caste system. It’s not clear which is the case here. In India lower caste Muslims are still often endogamous. Christians in Pakistan more often tend to have a lower caste background.
adictator 7y ago
That is not correct. Caste system never existed in India, at least not in the same or anti-humane form as in Islam - like Sunni, Shia, Ahmediyas etc. Caste system was an invention of the British & magnified to exponential proportions.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  Shia and Ahmadiyya are treated badly, but they are not castes (not yet anyway). All British did was freeze what they saw in place.
  - adictator 7y ago
    The British thought that India suffered from the same casteism as Christianity (& Abrahamic religions) in other places, so they tried their best to retrofit Indian society into that model. But they could find no evidence of casteism, so they were forced to artificially make up many "castes" & grouped people based on occupation etc. The people who could not be fitted into any castes were called a tribes, which are now known as scheduled tribes & castes. Otherwise there should have been just 4 castes according to every tenet of Hinduism. Unfortunately, Indians & the GOI have formalized that artificiality & that is the genesis of the caste system. Caste system is nothing but an invention of the British. Caste itself is a Portuguese word, nothing that correlates to Indian / Hinduism.