13 ms·

EU beckons Indian tech talent

80 points by r_singh 7y ago

tasubotadas 7y ago
This article provides no data to support their claims apart a few opinions thus it should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.
- qnsi 7y ago
  I think you should beckon Indian journalistic talent
r_singh 7y ago
I've firsthand noticed an increasing number of programmers from India move to countries other than the USA in the last few years mainly due to the increase in perceived difficulty of obtaining an H1B (I say perceived, because I'm not sure if it is actually harder for a well deserved non outsourcing based candidate to receive an H1B).
- cryptozeus 7y ago
  Yes make no mistake about it. It is difficult for people with h1bs in Facebook and google with high salaries and qualifications. Its deliberate effort. I am not saying its good or bad but the problem do exist.
  - screye 7y ago
    Yep, getting h1bs has gotten a lot more difficult. One of my friends at Microsoft in an ML role was rejected for "non relevant degree" despite having studied applied math at McGill.
  - dmingod666 7y ago
    yea, I've heard of horror stories of decades of wait time to get a green card.. its a horrible move IMO.
    - madengr 7y ago
      One can just come here illegally; everyone else is doing it. Seems most of the tech hubs are sanctuary cities, so your odds of deportation are nil.
      - vsskanth 7y ago
        Don't know if you're sarcastic. But high skilled workers would rather leave for other countries or go back home than become illegal immigrants.
        madengr 7y ago
        Yes, sarcasm.
naohq 7y ago
https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aVY17A8_460s.jpg https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aVY17A8_460s.jpg
blue_box 7y ago
It is really easy to get a blue card. You just need a contract (higher than €42K) and diploma (which is relevant to your job). That's all. Not only from India, I think EU beckons tech talent from all Level 3 countries.
- r_singh 7y ago
  Of course it does. However, Indian representation is disproportionately high (for multiple reasons) https://www.germany-visa.org/number-of-blue-card-holders-in-germany-spikes-up-for-25-in-2018/ https://www.germany-visa.org/number-of-blue-card-holders-in-... https://www.thelocal.de/20180109/one-quarter-of-eu-blue-card-holders-in-germany-from-india-report https://www.thelocal.de/20180109/one-quarter-of-eu-blue-card...
- intsunny 7y ago
  I sometimes wonder if it is too easy to get a Blue Card in Germany, and in turn will push down tech salaries when so many people show up willing to make slightly above the €42k requirement.
  - blue_box 7y ago
    For the first job, people are accepting this level salaries but after 21 months (if you have B1 level German otherwise 33 months), you can get a permenant resident permit. At that point, a lot of people change their job and find a company which pays better salaries.
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      Yes, but the damage has already been done. It pushed more people on the job market exerting downward pressure on salaries.
      - goatinaboat 7y ago
        It destroys entry-level jobs. Long gone are the days that someone could start on the helpdesk or in the QA department and work their way up into a sysadmin or a programmer. Those jobs all have been outsourced and offshored. This most hurts people who have the talent but not the formal qualifications. It is a total betrayal of social mobility by EU governments.
timwaagh 7y ago
it's kinda sad european programmers get pushed out of entry level positions by typically more experienced indians willing to work for some premium above indian wage. this ensures programming is not a very well paid job in west europe. europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people only start programming after college further putting eu workers at a disadvantage versus indians and russians. which isn't to say i'm against economic immigration completely, but if countries are going to be imposing migration restrictions, they should not make an exception for programming when they do for similarly paid professions, like chefs or hairdressers.
- scribu 7y ago
  > europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people only start programming after college further In Romania (Eastern Europe) you can start to learn programming from high school. Not sure what it's like in Western Europe.
  - detaro 7y ago
    Same in Germany, but not everywhere/every school.
  - bluerobotcat 7y ago
    I had the same experience in Belgium in the 90s. Had lessons in Pascal when I was 14, VBA at age 15, and moved on to a specialized (not very popular at the time) computer studies program at age 16 with about 15 hours of week of IT (VB, Pascal, C++, ...) per week.
  - timwaagh 7y ago
    yes, not having information science in high school is one issue. unfortunately, it's only where the list of problems starts.
  - ossworkerrights 7y ago
    The romanian education system is grossly overrated by people from that country. From experience, the quality of engineering there is only marginally better than that of india and statistically speaking the education system is the second worst in europe. Universities are ripe with corruption as well. There are some good engineers but overall it is horrible.
BiteCode_dev 7y ago
It's funny because in France, we are loosing french tech talents to the US.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- odiroot 7y ago
  From what I've heard Germany is also losing a lot of talent to the us and to Switzerland as well. Higher salaries, lower taxes, maybe even more interesting gigs. All good reasons to take the leap.
  - blue_box 7y ago
    I can confirm that. My german friend just accepted a job in Sweden. He also applied for the companies in Germany but they pay really low salaries and the companies are not that insteresting.
- SJetKaran 7y ago
  Yep, most people will move to greener pastures, when the opportunity arises. Polish people go to UK/France/Germany; People from Romania/Ukraine move to Poland, etc.
- k3oni 7y ago
  This could be a direct consequence coming from the import/immigration of talent into the EU. The best will leave once they see change coming and usually salaries and work culture could suffer on such changes. Also being born and raised in East Europe i can say that we don't handle too great a mix with other cultures, as US does for example.
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if they could import any workers hassle free? My ex employer was low balling everyone and after failing to recruit anyone locally due to low pay he the focused on hiring exclusively Indians and Chinese who were just happy to be in Europe accepting any wage citing the good air quality and social services compared to back home. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for them, and glad they're happy here but flooding the market with people who are happy to earn anything as long as they're allowed to live here is not a market I'd like to compete for work in as it increases the inequality putting all the gains in the hands of the employers. We have enough skilled workers in the EU. Importing people with wages under €50k disincentivizes employers from paying fair wages and investing in local workforce and increases income inequality. If we're talking about a shortage of truly highly skilled people we have to import then probably we should be talking about setting the bar way higher than €50k.
- blue_box 7y ago
  Of course, people who come from abroad have some effect on the salaries but I think the main reason is that life quality is really high in Europe (especially in Germany) so employees don't negotiate properly for their salary. When I talk with my colleagues, most of them are saying that the money that they earn is enough, there is no reason to ask for more. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Depends what your family can provide you and what your goals in life are. If you're set to inherit properties/money from your parents or you're ok with being a renter for life at the mercy of your landlord then any salary in Europe is fine. If you have to buy a property on your own where you could raise a family in then salaries are far from fine. Anytime I her someone in Western Europe say salaries are fine and shrug it off, usually it's because they will receive an inheritance or significant financial assistance from parents when the time comes to buy a house so they never feel underpaid.
corporateslave5 7y ago
Cheap labor to make the rich get richer
- mangatmodi 7y ago
  We are talking about tech. It is not cheap.
  - inertiatic 7y ago
    It's cheaper than the current options, and yields gigantic returns for most large tech companies.
- finolex1 7y ago
  Free(ish) movement of labor and goods is what has helped made available everything you consume at unbelievably cheap prices.
layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
Durgasoft?
throwaway929 7y ago
I wonder if europeans are aware of the continuous leak of foreigners in the continent, and how much they desire it. I would say very little of both questions.
rrrazdan 7y ago
A counterpoint to the article. As a founder in India we have recently started thinking about hiring people from EU, especially the eastern part. If however the criteria and salary for a good programmer is EUR 42k pa as a comment below suggests, you can earn decently more than that at multiple companies, including mine.
- blue_box 7y ago
  Can you live in India like you live in EU?
- r_singh 7y ago
  I think you mistook the minimum required contract value for an apt salary for a good programmer.
- ossworkerrights 7y ago
  People from the eastern part of the eu, taking a 42k a year salary are probably mid to senior. Salaries in east europe are higher than that, and the quality of life is way better than india.
- tluyben2 7y ago
  Do they need to move to India? I can see many interested people but not if they have to move...
elfexec 7y ago
The EU has over 500 million people in a landmass that is less than half the size of the US. Does the EU really need to import workers from overseas given how overpopulated it is relative to its landmass size? If the EU was the size of the US, it's population would be 1.2 billion people. Similar to china and india. Why aren't they able to find the workers locally? Is it poor planning? Did they not train enough tech workers? Just doesn't make sense.
- Mvandenbergh 7y ago
  By that logic, the US has many unemployed people and many, many people earning low wages in low productivity industries. Why not just train them properly rather than import workers from elsewhere?
  - elfexec 7y ago
    I agree. I don't think we should be importing any workers. We have 330 million people and that should be plenty. Importing workers disincentivizes US elites from developing our own local work force. And importing workers hurts the nation that is losing workers. Shouldn't all the indian tech workers be used in india to help india develop? Isn't it morally wrong for a wealthy nation like the US ( or wealthy political entity like the EU ) to leech indian workers since it hurts india? I keep hearing that "brain drain" is a bad thing by the media. And yet, the media celebrates brain drain when it comes to india, china, etc. Why? And if I think the US has enough people to fill its workforce needs, then it applies even more to the EU since the EU has 200 million more people in a much smaller space. Instead of bringing in foreign workers, shouldn't the EU be asking why it can't fill the jobs from 500+ million people? Don't you think 500 million people is a big enough pool from which to draw your workforce?
    - tolqen 7y ago
      you've got some advanced lump of labour nonsense going on here
    - d44m 7y ago
      Going by your logic, EU will have to build their own Coca Cola, Pepsi, Facebook, Google, and what not. And China or India is not going to buy any of your products. Is this how you want it to be? Globalization predicates that capital and goods are procured from places where they are readily available. It is what the post-WWII world was built on. Global trade may break apart to some extant due to the nationalism resurge, but economies of scale is real and smart businesses will leverage that.
jariel 7y ago
Europeans and Canadians move to the US, Indian and Chinese move to Europe and Canada. This is mostly a salary issue.
- mkbkn 7y ago
  So true. +1
d44m 7y ago
I look at it as a simple trade of goods. Hiring a Software Engineer from India is like an Indian buying a German car. If Germany can export cars to India and France can export wines, then India can export their talent. So, if you are confident of your skills and what they are worth, you should naturally go to the USA.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  >I look at it as a simple trade of goods. Hiring a Software Engineer from India is like an Indian buying a German car. That's by far the silliest thing I've read this week. Even beats Trump's tweets.
  - d44m 7y ago
    It's not conventional thinking, but this is how trade works. Most trade treaties now consider the human element too (like in the case of EU, which allows free people movement for employment, just like free goods movement).
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      >It's not conventional thinking, but this is how trade works. Trading cars for migrant workers is exactly how trade doesn't work. You're talking nonsense here. EU has a trade and migration deal between the EU member states, not with India.
      - d44m 7y ago
        EU also has a trade deal (agreement) with India that comprises BOTH goods and services (the human export thingy).
        ChuckNorris89 7y ago
        Yes, a trade deal for goods and services not a visa free immigration for work. When I have to go to India, business trip or tourist I also need a visa.
thbr99 7y ago
Going by the general tone of comments here. How about making something like the old Chineese head tax in Canada. Let's restrict Indians & Chineese and allow only whites to immigrate. Then I think it would be OK for everyone white. Racism,white privilege, white entitlement exists in HN at this day & age.
- bingerman 7y ago
  Equating serious concern of the effects of cheap foreign labour with racism is a wonderful way to prevent any meaningful discussion. Bonus points for antagonizing white people, that kind of pure racism is not really helping anyone.
huffmsa 7y ago
Oh Europe, pillaged the natural resources of India for centuries. Now you're stealing it's best and brightest for your own gain. Never change.
- nine_zeros 7y ago
  They are literally following SVs playbook. If you ever go to SV, you would know how the US tech industry is almost entirely immigrants or first generation kids. If EU continues down this path, in 10 years, EU has a chance of remaining relevant in the world.
asadkn 7y ago
It's odd to talk about EU as one. I can hire from EU countries that are on-par or even cheaper than India (at some skill level). Yes I am talking about some of Balkans (Serbia, Greece), Baltics (Estonia, Lithuania), Eastern EU (Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania) where the rates can be $20-30 an hour for very decent devs.
sputr 7y ago
I've been telling IT companies for 10 years that if they all relay on 'others' to train their workers while they only hire the experienced ones... None new will be trained with obvious results. As a developer I'm 'fine' with this as it drives my price to many times the median salary. But its not just IT. Our entire economy is crying about the lack of EXPERIENCED workers. But on the other hand there are still soo many unemployed, especially among the young (often unregistered and thus missing from statistics). No wonder seeing how there are almost no entry level jobs offered. I used to belive in the 'not enough programmers' line. Now I think it's just yet another unsustainable way to avoid to actually do the necessary socialy responsible tasks that are part of doing business. Train your damn workers and take responsibility for the short-sighted decisions you made years ago. Companies are like children. They will constantly try to push the limit in their own short-sighted interests. Its the job of government to, in the name of wider society, play the role of the parent and make sure that the negative effects of decisions are primarily felt by those who made the decisions.
emeraldx 7y ago
As far as I know, there is a minimum salary requirement for the Blue Card visa. So this blows the 'Cheap-talent-taking-over, Reduced-average-wages' argument out of the water. IMO, the reason this is happening is simple. 1) H1-B visas have an arbitrary numerical limitation every year, which is not tied to reflect the actual dearth of talent, and hasn't been updated since years. 2) They're extremely unreliable. You can only apply once a year, and it's a lottery. So employers aren't even sure if the candidate currently interviewing can get a work permit if hired. And the wait time to reapply is one year. Very inefficient. 3) The EU/Canada/Australia have a very streamlined visa process, allowing qualified candidates to quickly get a visa. Easy to attract and retain talent. If done right, these countries will benefit hugely like the US did in past decades. The new workers means more taxes, more demand/consumer spending and hence boost to the economy. Also, I must mention the low birth rates in EU (as normally happens in developed countries) which will start to show next generation onwards. If not for these new immigrants and their tax dollars (euros/francs/kronas) it'll be hard to keep up with the social benefits and expenditure. If not for immigration these countries will end up like Japan with an old population and in massive, compounding debt.

80 points by r_singh 7y ago

This article provides no data to support their claims apart a few opinions thus it should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.

qnsi 7y ago
I think you should beckon Indian journalistic talent

r_singh 7y ago

I've firsthand noticed an increasing number of programmers from India move to countries other than the USA in the last few years mainly due to the increase in perceived difficulty of obtaining an H1B (I say perceived, because I'm not sure if it is actually harder for a well deserved non outsourcing based candidate to receive an H1B).

cryptozeus 7y ago
Yes make no mistake about it. It is difficult for people with h1bs in Facebook and google with high salaries and qualifications. Its deliberate effort. I am not saying its good or bad but the problem do exist.
- screye 7y ago
  Yep, getting h1bs has gotten a lot more difficult. One of my friends at Microsoft in an ML role was rejected for "non relevant degree" despite having studied applied math at McGill.
- dmingod666 7y ago
  yea, I've heard of horror stories of decades of wait time to get a green card.. its a horrible move IMO.
  - madengr 7y ago
    One can just come here illegally; everyone else is doing it. Seems most of the tech hubs are sanctuary cities, so your odds of deportation are nil.
    - vsskanth 7y ago
      Don't know if you're sarcastic. But high skilled workers would rather leave for other countries or go back home than become illegal immigrants.
      - madengr 7y ago
        Yes, sarcasm.

naohq 7y ago

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aVY17A8_460s.jpg https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aVY17A8_460s.jpg

blue_box 7y ago

It is really easy to get a blue card. You just need a contract (higher than €42K) and diploma (which is relevant to your job). That's all. Not only from India, I think EU beckons tech talent from all Level 3 countries.

r_singh 7y ago
Of course it does. However, Indian representation is disproportionately high (for multiple reasons) https://www.germany-visa.org/number-of-blue-card-holders-in-germany-spikes-up-for-25-in-2018/ https://www.germany-visa.org/number-of-blue-card-holders-in-... https://www.thelocal.de/20180109/one-quarter-of-eu-blue-card-holders-in-germany-from-india-report https://www.thelocal.de/20180109/one-quarter-of-eu-blue-card...
intsunny 7y ago
I sometimes wonder if it is too easy to get a Blue Card in Germany, and in turn will push down tech salaries when so many people show up willing to make slightly above the €42k requirement.
- blue_box 7y ago
  For the first job, people are accepting this level salaries but after 21 months (if you have B1 level German otherwise 33 months), you can get a permenant resident permit. At that point, a lot of people change their job and find a company which pays better salaries.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Yes, but the damage has already been done. It pushed more people on the job market exerting downward pressure on salaries.
    - goatinaboat 7y ago
      It destroys entry-level jobs. Long gone are the days that someone could start on the helpdesk or in the QA department and work their way up into a sysadmin or a programmer. Those jobs all have been outsourced and offshored. This most hurts people who have the talent but not the formal qualifications. It is a total betrayal of social mobility by EU governments.

timwaagh 7y ago

it's kinda sad european programmers get pushed out of entry level positions by typically more experienced indians willing to work for some premium above indian wage. this ensures programming is not a very well paid job in west europe. europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people only start programming after college further putting eu workers at a disadvantage versus indians and russians. which isn't to say i'm against economic immigration completely, but if countries are going to be imposing migration restrictions, they should not make an exception for programming when they do for similarly paid professions, like chefs or hairdressers.

scribu 7y ago
> europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people only start programming after college further In Romania (Eastern Europe) you can start to learn programming from high school. Not sure what it's like in Western Europe.
- detaro 7y ago
  Same in Germany, but not everywhere/every school.
- bluerobotcat 7y ago
  I had the same experience in Belgium in the 90s. Had lessons in Pascal when I was 14, VBA at age 15, and moved on to a specialized (not very popular at the time) computer studies program at age 16 with about 15 hours of week of IT (VB, Pascal, C++, ...) per week.
- timwaagh 7y ago
  yes, not having information science in high school is one issue. unfortunately, it's only where the list of problems starts.
- ossworkerrights 7y ago
  The romanian education system is grossly overrated by people from that country. From experience, the quality of engineering there is only marginally better than that of india and statistically speaking the education system is the second worst in europe. Universities are ripe with corruption as well. There are some good engineers but overall it is horrible.

BiteCode_dev 7y ago

It's funny because in France, we are loosing french tech talents to the US.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
odiroot 7y ago
From what I've heard Germany is also losing a lot of talent to the us and to Switzerland as well. Higher salaries, lower taxes, maybe even more interesting gigs. All good reasons to take the leap.
- blue_box 7y ago
  I can confirm that. My german friend just accepted a job in Sweden. He also applied for the companies in Germany but they pay really low salaries and the companies are not that insteresting.
SJetKaran 7y ago
Yep, most people will move to greener pastures, when the opportunity arises. Polish people go to UK/France/Germany; People from Romania/Ukraine move to Poland, etc.
k3oni 7y ago
This could be a direct consequence coming from the import/immigration of talent into the EU. The best will leave once they see change coming and usually salaries and work culture could suffer on such changes. Also being born and raised in East Europe i can say that we don't handle too great a mix with other cultures, as US does for example.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if they could import any workers hassle free? My ex employer was low balling everyone and after failing to recruit anyone locally due to low pay he the focused on hiring exclusively Indians and Chinese who were just happy to be in Europe accepting any wage citing the good air quality and social services compared to back home. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for them, and glad they're happy here but flooding the market with people who are happy to earn anything as long as they're allowed to live here is not a market I'd like to compete for work in as it increases the inequality putting all the gains in the hands of the employers. We have enough skilled workers in the EU. Importing people with wages under €50k disincentivizes employers from paying fair wages and investing in local workforce and increases income inequality. If we're talking about a shortage of truly highly skilled people we have to import then probably we should be talking about setting the bar way higher than €50k.

blue_box 7y ago
Of course, people who come from abroad have some effect on the salaries but I think the main reason is that life quality is really high in Europe (especially in Germany) so employees don't negotiate properly for their salary. When I talk with my colleagues, most of them are saying that the money that they earn is enough, there is no reason to ask for more. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Depends what your family can provide you and what your goals in life are. If you're set to inherit properties/money from your parents or you're ok with being a renter for life at the mercy of your landlord then any salary in Europe is fine. If you have to buy a property on your own where you could raise a family in then salaries are far from fine. Anytime I her someone in Western Europe say salaries are fine and shrug it off, usually it's because they will receive an inheritance or significant financial assistance from parents when the time comes to buy a house so they never feel underpaid.

corporateslave5 7y ago

Cheap labor to make the rich get richer

mangatmodi 7y ago
We are talking about tech. It is not cheap.
- inertiatic 7y ago
  It's cheaper than the current options, and yields gigantic returns for most large tech companies.
finolex1 7y ago
Free(ish) movement of labor and goods is what has helped made available everything you consume at unbelievably cheap prices.

layoutIfNeeded 7y ago

Durgasoft?

throwaway929 7y ago

I wonder if europeans are aware of the continuous leak of foreigners in the continent, and how much they desire it. I would say very little of both questions.

rrrazdan 7y ago

A counterpoint to the article. As a founder in India we have recently started thinking about hiring people from EU, especially the eastern part. If however the criteria and salary for a good programmer is EUR 42k pa as a comment below suggests, you can earn decently more than that at multiple companies, including mine.

blue_box 7y ago
Can you live in India like you live in EU?
r_singh 7y ago
I think you mistook the minimum required contract value for an apt salary for a good programmer.
ossworkerrights 7y ago
People from the eastern part of the eu, taking a 42k a year salary are probably mid to senior. Salaries in east europe are higher than that, and the quality of life is way better than india.
tluyben2 7y ago
Do they need to move to India? I can see many interested people but not if they have to move...

elfexec 7y ago

The EU has over 500 million people in a landmass that is less than half the size of the US. Does the EU really need to import workers from overseas given how overpopulated it is relative to its landmass size? If the EU was the size of the US, it's population would be 1.2 billion people. Similar to china and india. Why aren't they able to find the workers locally? Is it poor planning? Did they not train enough tech workers? Just doesn't make sense.

Mvandenbergh 7y ago
By that logic, the US has many unemployed people and many, many people earning low wages in low productivity industries. Why not just train them properly rather than import workers from elsewhere?
- elfexec 7y ago
  I agree. I don't think we should be importing any workers. We have 330 million people and that should be plenty. Importing workers disincentivizes US elites from developing our own local work force. And importing workers hurts the nation that is losing workers. Shouldn't all the indian tech workers be used in india to help india develop? Isn't it morally wrong for a wealthy nation like the US ( or wealthy political entity like the EU ) to leech indian workers since it hurts india? I keep hearing that "brain drain" is a bad thing by the media. And yet, the media celebrates brain drain when it comes to india, china, etc. Why? And if I think the US has enough people to fill its workforce needs, then it applies even more to the EU since the EU has 200 million more people in a much smaller space. Instead of bringing in foreign workers, shouldn't the EU be asking why it can't fill the jobs from 500+ million people? Don't you think 500 million people is a big enough pool from which to draw your workforce?
  - tolqen 7y ago
    you've got some advanced lump of labour nonsense going on here
  - d44m 7y ago
    Going by your logic, EU will have to build their own Coca Cola, Pepsi, Facebook, Google, and what not. And China or India is not going to buy any of your products. Is this how you want it to be? Globalization predicates that capital and goods are procured from places where they are readily available. It is what the post-WWII world was built on. Global trade may break apart to some extant due to the nationalism resurge, but economies of scale is real and smart businesses will leverage that.

jariel 7y ago

Europeans and Canadians move to the US, Indian and Chinese move to Europe and Canada. This is mostly a salary issue.

mkbkn 7y ago
So true. +1

d44m 7y ago

I look at it as a simple trade of goods. Hiring a Software Engineer from India is like an Indian buying a German car. If Germany can export cars to India and France can export wines, then India can export their talent. So, if you are confident of your skills and what they are worth, you should naturally go to the USA.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
>I look at it as a simple trade of goods. Hiring a Software Engineer from India is like an Indian buying a German car. That's by far the silliest thing I've read this week. Even beats Trump's tweets.
- d44m 7y ago
  It's not conventional thinking, but this is how trade works. Most trade treaties now consider the human element too (like in the case of EU, which allows free people movement for employment, just like free goods movement).
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    >It's not conventional thinking, but this is how trade works. Trading cars for migrant workers is exactly how trade doesn't work. You're talking nonsense here. EU has a trade and migration deal between the EU member states, not with India.
    - d44m 7y ago
      EU also has a trade deal (agreement) with India that comprises BOTH goods and services (the human export thingy).
      - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
        Yes, a trade deal for goods and services not a visa free immigration for work. When I have to go to India, business trip or tourist I also need a visa.

thbr99 7y ago

Going by the general tone of comments here. How about making something like the old Chineese head tax in Canada. Let's restrict Indians & Chineese and allow only whites to immigrate. Then I think it would be OK for everyone white. Racism,white privilege, white entitlement exists in HN at this day & age.

bingerman 7y ago
Equating serious concern of the effects of cheap foreign labour with racism is a wonderful way to prevent any meaningful discussion. Bonus points for antagonizing white people, that kind of pure racism is not really helping anyone.

huffmsa 7y ago

Oh Europe, pillaged the natural resources of India for centuries. Now you're stealing it's best and brightest for your own gain. Never change.

nine_zeros 7y ago
They are literally following SVs playbook. If you ever go to SV, you would know how the US tech industry is almost entirely immigrants or first generation kids. If EU continues down this path, in 10 years, EU has a chance of remaining relevant in the world.

asadkn 7y ago

It's odd to talk about EU as one. I can hire from EU countries that are on-par or even cheaper than India (at some skill level). Yes I am talking about some of Balkans (Serbia, Greece), Baltics (Estonia, Lithuania), Eastern EU (Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania) where the rates can be $20-30 an hour for very decent devs.

sputr 7y ago

I've been telling IT companies for 10 years that if they all relay on 'others' to train their workers while they only hire the experienced ones... None new will be trained with obvious results. As a developer I'm 'fine' with this as it drives my price to many times the median salary. But its not just IT. Our entire economy is crying about the lack of EXPERIENCED workers. But on the other hand there are still soo many unemployed, especially among the young (often unregistered and thus missing from statistics). No wonder seeing how there are almost no entry level jobs offered. I used to belive in the 'not enough programmers' line. Now I think it's just yet another unsustainable way to avoid to actually do the necessary socialy responsible tasks that are part of doing business. Train your damn workers and take responsibility for the short-sighted decisions you made years ago. Companies are like children. They will constantly try to push the limit in their own short-sighted interests. Its the job of government to, in the name of wider society, play the role of the parent and make sure that the negative effects of decisions are primarily felt by those who made the decisions.

emeraldx 7y ago

As far as I know, there is a minimum salary requirement for the Blue Card visa. So this blows the 'Cheap-talent-taking-over, Reduced-average-wages' argument out of the water. IMO, the reason this is happening is simple. 1) H1-B visas have an arbitrary numerical limitation every year, which is not tied to reflect the actual dearth of talent, and hasn't been updated since years. 2) They're extremely unreliable. You can only apply once a year, and it's a lottery. So employers aren't even sure if the candidate currently interviewing can get a work permit if hired. And the wait time to reapply is one year. Very inefficient. 3) The EU/Canada/Australia have a very streamlined visa process, allowing qualified candidates to quickly get a visa. Easy to attract and retain talent. If done right, these countries will benefit hugely like the US did in past decades. The new workers means more taxes, more demand/consumer spending and hence boost to the economy. Also, I must mention the low birth rates in EU (as normally happens in developed countries) which will start to show next generation onwards. If not for these new immigrants and their tax dollars (euros/francs/kronas) it'll be hard to keep up with the social benefits and expenditure. If not for immigration these countries will end up like Japan with an old population and in massive, compounding debt.