11 ms·
Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". The
by tytso 7y ago
Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". This was true when I worked for MIT, VA Linux, IBM, and Google. At VA Linux it was the VC's which insisted on that clause in the employee's contracts. So anyone who think this is some evidence of Google being, or becoming, evil is either seriously misinformed, or just engaging in unthinking hate of Google, or both.
In fact, Google has one of the most permissive IP policies that I've seen at any company except for VA Linux Systems.
The default is that the vast majority of work done by an employee can be released under an open source license. Sure, there's a process that you have to go through, and unless what you want to do intersects with work that you are doing for your team that isn't intended to be released publically, or competes with a critical company initiative, the default answer is that it will be allowed to be released.
This is not true for many, if not most companies, and as a responsible open source maintainer, I make sure that people understand they have permission from their company before I accept their open source contributions. Otherwise, I would be putting them, and the project, at risk. (Note that because of this, there are many employees which are not allowed to participate in open source development, because their employers will not give them permission to release code written by an employee under an open source license, whether written "on their own time" or not.)
At Google, once you get this (mostly pro forma) permission, you can work on open source projects on your own time, or on 20% time, using company laptops, or using GCE resources, etc. When I was hired at Google, my manager and I cut a deal such that I could work on Linux Kernel and community projects for 50% of my time, instead of the normal 20%. Sure, the overlap between what was good for Google and what was good for ext4/Linux was pretty broad, but Google also paid for me to travel to various conferences in Asia, Australia, Europe, etc.
Also unique to Google is there is a process by which you can get permission for you to out-and-out own the work done on your own time, as opposed to Google owning it and releasing it under an open source license. If you take that option then it really has to be done on your own time, and must not use any company resources, meaning not on a company laptop, or on a company network, etc. This is rare, and I'm not aware of many other companies that give employees that option.
- boomlinde 7y ago> Oh, please. It's standard industry practice for companies to claim ownership of everything a software engineer comes up with, even "on their own time". I have not yet worked at a job where this was the case, and I would decline an offer to do so. It is unusual here, but I know of a friend who signed such a contract for a video game studio, but then only for games specifically and not IT in general. Mostly thanks to unions there are plenty of options not to work for these leeches. > The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". On the other hand it's extremely difficult to say that the innovations I contribute to my employer are conceived exclusively during paid hours. > So anyone who think this is some evidence of Google being, or becoming, evil is either seriously misinformed, or just engaging in unthinking hate of Google, or both. Without even addressing the conclusion you can surely see how this reasoning is faulty. If all evil things that were ever considered common practice were excused for only that reason, we'd probably live in a pretty shitty world.
- wbl 7y agoCalifornia law gives everyone that second option as I understand it.
- Juliate 7y agoThat's very US industry centered practice. As such, it spread worldwide. In France at least, negotiation is always open in your employment contract for specific permissions for personal work and open source contributions. I always mentionned that in interviews that went far enough, it also works as a good test.
- JoeAltmaier 7y agoI thought California had explicit laws about employee rights in this matter?
- amelius 7y ago> The problem is it's extremely difficult to say, figure out when someone might have invented some super clever idea which can be pantented "on their own time". That depends. If the employee's project is in an area that is completely different from what Google is doing, then it should be clear that there is no conflict. At least the wording in the contract should reflect that possibility.