45 ms·

Smart TVs like Samsung, LG and Roku are tracking everything

481 points by lsh 7y ago

AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
I had a very nice Sharp Aquos TV for a long time. One of the first reasonably priced 1080p 65" TVs. It had absolutely no "smart" features, which was perfectly fine with me. I have my TV hooked up to a home theatre system and have my devices (PS4/AppleTV/XB1/Nvidia Shield) hooked up to that. I recently upgraded to a LG 4K OLED TV. It's an absolutely gorgeous TV, but, I absolutely lament the "smart" features of this TV. I get software update prompts on a regular basis for software I don't use (I'm sure there would be some for the base system anyway, but, an order of magnitude less). The prompts when setting up the TV to accept myriad EULAs are obnoxious. Pop-ups advertising "features" on my TV which I don't want? Ugh. I really want either a manufacturer who resells these panels with 0 features, or a mode from LG which disables all of this. "Lock to HDMI1 and disable everything but color management features". More on-topic with the article: I'm a pretty tech and legally-savvy guy, but, even I'm not sure I've toggled the correct order of knobs and declined the correct EULAs to disable that tracking. Moreover, I'm exactly 0% sure that someone else didn't try to watch Netflix (via the TV and not the AppleTV/Shield/PS4/etc) and wasn't prompted to accept EULAs to do that. My point is, if I can't even do this properly, normal people have a near 0% chance of disabling tracking. That said, it's a fantastically gorgeous panel. I've had a lot of fun re-watching older favorite movies in 4K.
- unstatusthequo 7y ago
  Yeah even when toggling options to stop tracking, I don’t trust it. I will usually find what it calls out to and block it on my home network with Pi-Hole. I also am moving to projector which may have less “smart” bs crammed in there. But, I haven’t researched that yet to see if that’s true or not.
  - AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
    I don't think the options are blatantly false, the legal teams at these respective companies would never allow them to be demonstrably false. I do think they are as confusing as possible and designed to be as difficult as possible to place in "max privacy" mode and as easy as possible to place in "max tracking" mode. > block it on my home network with Pi-Hole That's a really good idea. I just configured my firewall (Palo Alto) to block the TV, I'm not sure why I didn't think of that.
    - shyn3 7y ago
      Look through this, they seem to connect to open WiFi networks. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/bpr6xs/if_you_choose_to_not_connect_your_samsung_smart/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/bpr6xs/if_you_choo...
      - Silhouette 7y ago
        I've been arguing for a long time that the "don't connect it to your network" defence was insufficient because sooner or later these devices will simply start including their own connectivity as well. Various other categories of device, notably cars, already do, and frequently abuse it for tracking purposes. My take on this is that we should impose the kind of draconian restrictions we have here in the UK on products like cigarettes. You can buy them, age restrictions permitting, but they are legally required to cover a large part of their packaging with prominent disclosures of the harm they cause. If devices with consumer-hostile measures like phone home functionality were similarly required to disclose it, and exactly what it is doing, on their packaging and other promotional materials, average consumers might start asking more questions instead of just the relatively small and so usually insignificant class of techie consumers. If that still didn't produce meaningful competition, outright prohibition by law might be the only solution.
        asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
        "We collect viewing data when you use our TV in order to recommend other content you might like" will probably not really move the needle for most consumers.
- DrPhish 7y ago
  What you are looking for are called "Commercial Displays" or "Digital Signage" Expect to pay a premium, but they are generally simple panels built to endure a very heavy duty cycle and harsher-than-a-living-room environment
  - troydavis 7y ago
    I looked in to this and at least for large sizes as of earlier this year, commercial displays aren't practical. The premium isn't 10% or 20% (which I'd gladly pay to omit "features" that disclose data to third parties), it's $2000-$5000 (60%-150%). Also, for that massive premium, commercial displays often don't include HDR, HDMI features (CEC, ARC), and sometimes even 4k. They aren't a realistic solution.
  - AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
    The panels aren't nearly as nice as the ones you can get on consumer TVs. LG C9 OLED is a thing to behold.
- WA 7y ago
  Which model is it?
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  I think we've reached the point where the only safe way of buying a TV is to buy a business conference room display or large screen monitor instead. Seems to be the only way to get something without all the dystopian crap.
  - pimeys 7y ago
    But then you're losing all of the goodies for movies and games, such as proper color space or contrast. Usually the business TVs are anything but good for movies.
    - Sharlin 7y ago
      But consumer TVs nowadays come with absolutely hideous defaults, with color, contrast and sharpness adjusted to first and foremost compete for attention against other manufacturers on store shelves. It's gotten bad enough that stores now offer adjustment services — for a price, obviously — just to get the picture to look the way it should in the first place!
      - jmccorm 7y ago
        You’re absolutely right. Commonly referred to as “scorch” mode.
      - MagnumPIG 7y ago
        The factory tint setting is always too high!
    - namibj 7y ago
      I will counter with the Iiyama prolite x4071uhsu-b1, the highest-contrast (5000:1 typ) LCD I have ever seen with such a competitive sticker price. 500~600$ 4k 40". Up to 75Hz @24bit color or 60Hz @40bit color. It has zero smart stuff, and comes with an RS232 input for which documentation exists to control _everything_ remotely. I think the latter is due to it's brother being a 24/7 rated digital signage device, which typically implies remote management. I'm passively looking for a newer model for a potential secondary setup on a different desk/location, but haven't stumbled on anything I'd prefer.
- wvenable 7y ago
  > My point is, if I can't even do this properly, normal people have a near 0% chance of disabling tracking. The other point is that all these features are advertised on the box (Netflix, Alexa integration, etc) but you can't even use them unless you accept those EULA prompts.
  - o-__-o 7y ago
    If you don’t accept you can return for a refund. Something tells me lots of ppl accept tho
- ownagefool 7y ago
  Yeah, I'd really like slightly better support for plugging in something smart into a dumb TV. In the UK, if my shield would show freeview TV channels I'd probably never need to leave the interface, and thus I'd be happy to lock a TV into a shield slave. Unfortunately it just doesn't work like that for us over here though.
  - nr152522 7y ago
    I have a HD Homerun and the channels app for that. I’m using the shield exclusively for smart features and the OLED as a dumb display.
    - ownagefool 7y ago
      That's interesting. Thanks of making me aware.
- tekstar 7y ago
  I recently bought an LG OLED as well. I never connected it to my network and never will. It was a dark pattern during setup. The options were to connect via LAN or WIFI, and only by scrolling into "nothing" did a skip option appear. This ImO is the only option and even then I bet it's trying to exhilarate data by like trying to connect to a phone or high frequency audio or something.
  - xwdv 7y ago
    How do you install firmware updates??
    - kspacewalk2 7y ago
      I bought a dumb tv in 2013 that I still use just fine without any firmware updates. It's a screen, it needs no updates.
      - o-__-o 7y ago
        I plugged in my pre-all-devices-spy 10 year old dumb tv to the network for the first time and now it hounds me for firmware updates.... I always reject because I don’t want it to learn how to spy on me. Pretty sure my firetv phones my hdmi content home
        dghughes 7y ago
        Can't you set the onboard clock back a few years to fool it?
    - defen 7y ago
      If it's not on the network why would you need firmware updates? (serious question)
      - newnewpdro 7y ago
        Bugs affecting its base functionality?
- glitchc 7y ago
  Just unplug it from the network. That should get rid of most of it. I have an LG smart TV that has never seen the network. I get no ads, no popups, no features, no EULA, nothing. It behaves like a dumb TV. It was the LG 65UH series from Costco.
  - codezero 7y ago
    I wonder if one day they’ll connect to other TVs that are online to get around the WiFi.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      Or have a GPS and realize that it’s been 12 months since their last mandatory update and lock you out.
      - SteveNuts 7y ago
        Why would you need a GPS for that?
        tristor 7y ago
        GPS provides high quality RTC signals. So the TV could update its time with high accuracy via GPS and countdown a timer.
        SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
        Thankfully the majority of people use their TV indoors.
        corint 7y ago
        All you need is to glimpse 1 satellite for a short while if you're looking for a roughly accurate time. You need 3 to get a position fix, but fewer will still give you the time.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Fiahil 7y ago
  I just bought a LG OLED as well. This screen is amazingly good ! I connected it to the network in order to watch netflix, and unchecked all tracking and advertising related EULAs. I'm also running a pihole on my network, so most third party ads will be denied from reaching the TV.
- technofiend 7y ago
  Just one humble non-lawyer's opinion but I'd love to see merchantability and fitness laws updated to explicitly bar reduced functionality without the forced exchange of consumer data, which is what's happening here. Manufacturers claim they are subsidizing the TVs via data collection, assuming that's true then banning the reduction of features unless the consumer opts in then raises the bar on every manufacturer. If TVs go back up in price so be it.
dawnerd 7y ago
I stopped connecting my TVs to the internet when Samsung started pushing notification ads for GameFly on a (at the time) 3k dollar first gen 4K tv - and they lied and said no they’d never do that. They’ve all lost my trust.
- prawn 7y ago
  I disabled autoupdates on everything after a smart TV whose dashboard I'd laid out to suit me, auto-updated and insisted on dashboard apps that I never wanted and couldn't delete or hide. Got an Apple TV and have not touched the smart TV features since.
  - sowbug 7y ago
    Sounds like Vizio. Five years now and I still re-delete the Yahoo Finance app every couple months.
    - jerrysievert 7y ago
      I once connected my vizio tv to the wifi. ended up having to change the wifi password, since there was no way to forget the network on the vizio. haven't had an update since, and not upset about that.
- jay_kyburz 7y ago
  Wow, I didn't know it was that bad! I've never connected my tv's to the internet. I normally run a full PC behind them to access our media and for apps.
- McDev 7y ago
  In addition to push notifications, they kept pushing their TV+ app to the first position of my apps selector. I kept removing it. Then I just switched off internet access. Smart TVs are dumb.
- petepete 7y ago
  This might be of use. However I don't blame you for not using it altogether. https://gist.github.com/peteryates/b44b70d19ccd52f62d66cdd4bcef1e52 https://gist.github.com/peteryates/b44b70d19ccd52f62d66cdd4b...
makecheck 7y ago
The smarter a TV is, the stupider it breaks too. My parents had a TV with a built-in Skype app, and at some point the TV maker stopped supporting it. After that, every single time the TV was turned on the TV popped up a vague modal error message (that didn’t even mention Skype, just “an app” or something). I verified that it is impossible to turn off this message or do anything about it. Think about the stupidity.
- c22 7y ago
  I bought a Vizio tv a couple years ago that came with a very simple remote. The remote had power, volume, channel, and input buttons and nothing else. It seemed like they intended you to pair it with a smart phone to change any real settings. At some point about 8 months after I bought it turning on the screen caused a message to be displayed informing me that there was a new more fully-featured remote available and that they'd send one to me for free if I registered at the displayed url. The message could only be dismissed using a button that did not exist on the included remote. I literally could not use the television for two weeks while I waited for the new remote to arrive in the mail.
codedokode 7y ago
You are discussing here how to isolate the TV into a separate firewalled network, but for an average consumer this is too difficult. What an average consumer wants is to watch Youtube and Netflix and not bother about settings. If I was a TV manufacturer I would install a video camera and microphone and record everything and people would still buy my TVs.
gumby 7y ago
Surely this is a non-issue if you don’t connect the TV itself to the internet?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- rladd 7y ago
  Not if you use a box like Roku, etc.
  - cryptozeus 7y ago
    Won’t the roku only needs to be connected to internet and not tv itself? Right ?
- deergomoo 7y ago
  Also worth noting that with a lot of TVs, you can download firmware updates to a USB stick, then install them directly to the TV. Occasionally the out-of-the-box firmware on TVs can perform poorly on certain input modes, so it's nice to have an option to get the latest patches without opening yourself up to tracking and ads. That said, the idea of a TV needing patches is thoroughly unappealing.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Buttons840 7y ago
  Doesn't HDMI share internet connection? So if you connect any HDMI device with an internet connection then your TV will have one too?
  - detaro 7y ago
    HDMI optionally does support that, but almost no devices actually do.
    - 7y ago
ga-vu 7y ago
paywall... ugh
- haspoken 7y ago
  http://archive.is/8Cm3Q http://archive.is/8Cm3Q
tzs 7y ago
I wish that if they are going to insist on making their TVs smart, they would take the time to think about what people who use some of the apps would want. For example, my Samsung has apps that can stream radio, and apps for Spotify and other music services. But it evidently failed to occur to anyone at Samsung that since these are audio apps and do not need to use the screen while playing, I might want to blank the screen once I start the stream. I'm particularly irked at Samsung because when I searched online to see how to blank the screen (I assumed it was obvious that they would include such a feature, and I was just being dimwitted when it came to finding it), I found that they used to have that feature, and they dropped it starting with the model year of my TV!
- oAlbe 7y ago
  I mean, how are you going to see the ads if the screen is blanked? It's not that they didn't think about it, they did, they just went for the "feature" that benefitted them the most.
qwerty456127 7y ago
It also is extremely hard to fix a smart TV once it gets infected with a virus. Just don't buy smart TVs. Buy a dumb TV, attach a RaspberryPi or an Intel NUC, install Kodi and enjoy.
- rco8786 7y ago
  Would love to. Who is currently making these dumb TVs? I’m in the market and can’t find anything.
  - qwerty456127 7y ago
    Buy a used one. Or even better - buy a projector.
    - rco8786 7y ago
      Not too interested in an old used TV, or a projector really
  - namibj 7y ago
    Iiyama is one if them. Don't consider branding, look for tech specs/price.
    - rco8786 7y ago
      They appear to specialize in PC monitors? I see a few commercial-looking LED screens they make but they're super expensive for what they are
      - namibj 7y ago
        They make zero-fuss LCD screens, many of them with standard VESA mounting and HDMI input(s). Some of them are low-duty digital signage, or have a less-beefy desktop brother with the same/similar software and just mechanical/(power) electronics differentiating them between 8/5 and 24/7 usage to keep their warranty. You are looking wrong when you make the price argument. Either your price source is weird, or you're looking at the "wrong" model. Just keep in mind that these are not your generic high-gloss consumer electronics flashy devices, but what a value-oriented engineering office might well use. I have yet to find a better LCD than their x4071uhsu-b1 ... Seriously, if you know of something comparable in contrast ratio: I dread the day mine breaks and I need to find a replacement.
myrakle 7y ago
I use the PCWRT router, and it allows me to block the spying by blacklisting the relevant domains. https://www.pcwrt.com/2018/08/how-to-use-your-router-to-block-smart-tv-snooping/ https://www.pcwrt.com/2018/08/how-to-use-your-router-to-bloc...
- butz 7y ago
  Any way to build something like this myself, e.g. using Raspberry Pi or DD-WRT supported router?
  - netsharc 7y ago
    Google Pi Hole, it's mostly for ads and trackers, but someone probably has a list of "call home" domains, or you can add your own domains/hostnames that you want blocked
    - ownagefool 7y ago
      I believe the blocker just uses a dns server that returns a local IP address for bad domains that serve up a single pixel transparent in place of the ad, so there's a solution on pretty much every platform. Pi-Hole has a nice GUI, but if you already have openwrt, dd-wrt or pfsense, you can likely just install packages.
    - jquinby 7y ago
      There is indeed such a list: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/master/SmartTV.txt https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/m...
  - myrakle 7y ago
    DD-WRT would probably let you block domains. Pi-hole might be useful too. To be effective, you need your black or white listing to be device specific, so that you can block your smart TV in whatever way you want to without affecting other devices.
  - garrettdimon 7y ago
neonate 7y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20191002013559/https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-watch-tv-your-tv-watches-back/ https://web.archive.org/web/20191002013559/https://www.washi...
- noyesno 7y ago
  The paywall JavaScript still kicks in after reading the article for a while via archive.org. This should not suffer from the same issue: http://archive.is/8Cm3Q http://archive.is/8Cm3Q
roel_v 7y ago
So I have a samsung tv, and I like the apps - I use the youtube one every day, and several others several times a week. How do I leverage the gdpr to find out who knows what about me?
- a_imho 7y ago
  You probably need to contact the DPO of each company starting with Samsung and/or consult their dedicated GDPR resources. Unfortunately GDPR is not really enforced thus fails to live up to its promise. In theory you should have nothing to worry about unless you opted in to their data collecting shenanigans. Even if you are prepared to exercise your rights under GDPR in my experience the usual modus operandi is asking for more data via various registration forms and accounts or sending copies of personal IDs. Then if you manage to hand in a Data Request or Deletion Request there is no way to find out whether they really complied or not, making it pointless.
yegor 7y ago
Run a Pi-Hole, use it as the DNS server for your "Smart" TV. Too lazy? Shameless self promotion: https://windscribe.com/features/robert https://windscribe.com/features/robert
- fernly 7y ago
  Wait wait wait. Windscribe, which looks like a heckuva VPN, where does it run? Because we are talking about filtering or blocking the data flow between the TV and the local router, i.e. the connection between the TV and my Comcast router. How does Windscribe get involved in that stream?
  - smileybarry 7y ago
    I'm guessing it's just a DNS server blackholing/NXDOMAIN-ing certain domains and the connections aren't actually proxied, like the old OpenDNS home.
walrus01 7y ago
In my opinion you should not use ANY of the smart features of a "smart" TV. Don't give it your wifi key and don't put it on your LAN. I have about 400% more trust of Microsoft and Sony than I do of random smart tv manufacturers. I also have a fairly high degree of confidence that the xbox one and PS4 software will remain up to date with security patches, and address critical issues quickly. I have no confidence for TVs. Microsoft and Sony have teams of lawyers who've drafted the data collection/data sharing/opt-out policies for what their current generation game consoles track and phone home about. I've seen entirely too many reports of "smart" TVs that start reporting your entire viewing habits, and/or displaying unwanted ads. Use the TV as a dumb display and hook it up to a PS4, Xbox One, and/or home theatre PC.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  I trust cableco providers even less than random smartTV manufacturers. And those TV boxes are 2-way obligate devices...
- smileybarry 7y ago
  > I have about 400% more trust of Microsoft and Sony than I do of random smart tv manufacturers. It should be noted Sony's TVs are different than their game consoles in what they collect and do. They run a relatively clean version of Android TV except for "Samba TV", which is yet another piece of show-recognizing (known as ACR) analytics. However, you can apparently decline its privacy policy on initial setup and even disable the APK entirely in settings[1]. (Some people also succeeded in ripping it and other bundled video apps out via ADB) Even given all that, Sony TVs are probably still the tamest smart TVs out there. > Don't give it your wifi key and don't put it on your LAN. It entirely depends on manufacturer but I've heard of some actually seeking out open networks for internet access if you don't configure their Wi-Fi. Some people reported an unconnected TV suddenly prompted to update because the neighbour's wifi was unsecured. If you can, I'd set up a specific SSID with no LAN or WAN access just in case. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-snooping-features/ https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smar...
  - 7y ago
trianglem 7y ago
If you don’t want the “smart” features, just never enter your WiFi password.
- mopsi 7y ago
  Sadly, this will only push TV manufacturers harder to implement built-in always-on 5G connectivity that completely bypasses the end user.
  - gdulli 7y ago
    Would the TV still be harmlessly anonymous, though? If you never logged into anything? Would there be any vectors to tying usage to you?
    - banana_giraffe 7y ago
      Probably. Though, it's only a small step for it to report home which WiFi network is the strongest, even if it never connects, for a Google App on the TV to know who I am. Not that it matters a ton to me. I just don't want another vector for ads, and you can bet that an always on connection will be used to tell me what streaming services the TV can offer me this week if I'd only feed it my WiFi password.
  - detaro 7y ago
    Making devices that just don't work without a connection home seems a lot easier.
    - mopsi 7y ago
      How? Bricking a device on purpose is a huge liability. Much easier to install a cheap 5G modem and keep it on as long as data collected is worth more than the peanuts 5G connection will cost to bulk buyers.
      - detaro 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tyingq 7y ago
This seems fairly easy to me. Just don't configure the WiFi. Add a TV box (FireTV, Apple TV, whatever) that you trust.
- Buttons840 7y ago
  That FireTV you have plugged in gives the TV an Ethernet connection. So it's more like turn off the WiFi and plug in Ethernet.
  - tyingq 7y ago
    Not sure I understand. How does the TV get that through an HDMI cable?
    - Buttons840 7y ago
      HDMI cables can carry Ethernet, not just video.
      - somehnguy 7y ago
        You've repeated this like 9 times in this post but I have yet to see any proof of any devices actually implementing it.
  - sjg007 7y ago
    Fire tv has ads too. Apple TV is really the only option unless u go custom.
thom 7y ago
TVs used to be on and showing you a picture before you took your thumb off the channel button on your remote. Good times.
- tenebrisalietum 7y ago
  The old CRTs I grew up with need a good 15-20 seconds to warm up first, but you did have the audio pretty instantly.
nrp 7y ago
A “Dumb TV” is something I’m exploring developing. There is a gap in the market for a TV with a great panel, no internet connection, and only the processing strictly required for various types of signal processing and format conversion. The closest available solutions are large commercial monitors that cost an arm and a leg.
- kingcobraninja 7y ago
  The commercial monitors cost more because the price isn't subsidized by user data collection.
  - nrp 7y ago
    The data on your viewing habits isn’t worth that sum (making it even sadder that TV OEMs are selling you out). The price deltas are driven by what the market will bear. As expensive as the commercial monitors are, they are a small fraction of the other costs of fitting out the conference rooms and facilities that use them.
    - kalleboo 7y ago
      It's not just data on viewing habits but they also make money though selling shows in the built-in apps, probably also get affiliate payments for people who signed up for Netflix etc through the TV. From the mouth of the CTO of Visio: > So look, it’s not just about data collection. It’s about post-purchase monetization of the TV. > This is a cutthroat industry. It’s a 6-percent margin industry, right? I mean, you know it’s pretty ruthless. You could say it’s self-inflicted, or you could say there’s a greater strategy going on here, and there is. The greater strategy is I really don’t need to make money off of the TV. I need to cover my cost. > And then I need to make money off those TVs. They live in households for 6.9 years — the average lifetime of a Vizio TV is 6.9 years. You would probably be amazed at the number of people come up to me saying, “I love Vizio TVs, I have one” and it’s 11 years old. I’m like, “Dude, that’s not even full HD, that’s 720p.” > But they do last a long time and our strategy — you’ve seen this with all of our software upgrades including AirPlay 2 and HomeKit — is that we want to make things backward compatible to those TVs. So we’re continuing to invest in those older TVs to bring them up to feature level comparison with the new TVs when there’s no hardware limitation that would otherwise prevent that. > And the reason why we do that is there are ways to monetize that TV and data is one, but not only the only one. It’s sort of like a business of singles and doubles, it’s not home runs, right? You make a little money here, a little money there. You sell some movies, you sell some TV shows, you sell some ads, you know. It’s not really that different than The Verge website. > Q: One sort of Verge-nerd meme that I hear in our comments or on Twitter is “I just want a dumb TV. I just want a panel with no smarts and I’ll figure it out on my own.” But it sounds like that lifetime monetization problem would prevent you from just making a dumb panel that you can sell to somebody. > A: Well, it wouldn’t prevent us, to be honest with you. What it would do is, we’d collect a little bit more margin at retail to offset it. Again, it may be an aspirational goal to not have high margins on our TV business because I can make it up downstream. On the other hand, I’m actually aggregating that monetization across a large number of users, some of which opt out. > It’s a blended revenue model where, in the end, Vizio succeeds, but you know, it’s not wholly dependent on things like data collection.
scarejunba 7y ago
It's why the device can be so cheap. Pity they don't offer two variants though. I always did like the way Amazon let you opt in to ads for a cheaper Kindle price. In a past life, I actually helped bridge ad attribution for a bunch of these. Funny.
Macha 7y ago
Unfortunately, I need to consent to tracking by the WaPo to find out how much my Smart TV might be tracking me.
- sailfast 7y ago
  I’ve found disabling JavaScript on their site also disabled their subscription / paywall API which is all JavaScript.
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
    It also happens to disable quite a bit of tracking. Yay for selectively whitelisting JS!
aczerepinski 7y ago
Is there any good 4k tv on the market with zero smart features? I would love to buy a high quality display that can't connect to the internet.
- krosaen 7y ago
  Just don't connect it and hook whatever you want into an hdmi port
- bitwize 7y ago
  Most Sceptre TVs come with no smart features. Price is good, too.
  - dmm 7y ago
    Be careful most of the Sceptre tvs are RGBW panels so they aren't true 4k.
aerique 7y ago
Why not use a computer display as a dumb TV?
- freehunter 7y ago
  Computer displays don’t often have speakers built into them or robust support for multiple (2+) HDMI inputs or coax inputs for cable/antenna or RGA inputs. All things people typically expect in a TV.
- e1ven 7y ago
  It isn't trivial for most people to buy a 55" computer monitor.
sailfast 7y ago
Has anyone successfully hacked any of these TVs to disable the smart features? I would pay some money for this kind of firmware patch on a future purchase. It seems crazy that the software is so terrible and yet nobody has found a way to disable it.
- mackal 7y ago
  LG and Samsung use Linux. Might be some fun to had analyzing any source code releases.
- milofeynman 7y ago
  It would be quite nice if there were a single model out there that could be easily hacked and replaced with a speedy interface that does two things, switches HDMI inputs fast and volume control. (And turns off motion blur obviously.) Then maybe you could start throwing other stuff on there.
- travisporter 7y ago
  This would be great! Ifixit should show us how to remove or isolate the 5g/WiFi chip. Makes me wonder- is there a transparent faraday gage solution?
- jaclaz 7y ago
  There are projects to replace/root/modify the OS, unfortunately they tend to be about older models and the manufacturers continue changing things and making access more difficult. Examples: https://wiki.samygo.tv/index.php?title=Main_Page https://wiki.samygo.tv/index.php?title=Main_Page https://forum.xda-developers.com/web-os/general/rooting-webos-tv-t3656027 https://forum.xda-developers.com/web-os/general/rooting-webo...
seventwoworlds 7y ago
Wow, who would've guessed! Not me! /s
bitwize 7y ago
Just get a Sceptre TV. Up to 4K resolution, no smart features.
brightrooms 7y ago
Not just tvs. All appliances are getting "smart". Refrigerators, washers, etc are or will track you too. You'll have the convenience of connecting to your fridge to see what you need to buy at the supermarket. Eventually, the fridge will just send you notifications of things you need to buy. Very convenient, but the fridge manufacturer will also know what you eat, when you shop, where you shop and everything you do in your kitchen. I suspect sooner or later, there will be period of consolidation amongst the appliance companies so that they will be able to see everything you do in your house.
- WWLink 7y ago
  5 years ago I bough the cheapest side-by-side fridge Best Buy had. It is a $900 whirlpool OEM Amana. It's as dumb as the refrigerator my parents had 20 years ago. :D No complaints here! It works great!
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    I got a GE washer/dryer pair recently that seem to be pretty "dumb" - no wifi, no electronic display, washer is top loading and has an agitator, you can set it to use a reasonable amount of water... And despite GE becoming a Chinese brand, they seem to have regained a reputation for reliability somewhat, based on the reviews I read.
goombastic 7y ago
You don't get non-smart/dumb TVs that easily anymore.
ph2082 7y ago
I shifted house 3 years ago and sold old TV at that time. Thought going to buy new Smart TV. But 1 month passed and I didn't missed TV (also skeptical about tracking thing). I realised after spending working hours in front of Monitor/Laptop, my eyes can use some rest. So NO TV in weekdays. I have bought 30 inch monitor, connected to home desktop and use it for entertainment - Netflix, sports etc. NO TV is an option. Some day going to upgrade to bigger monitor.
jernejzen 7y ago
Earlier this year my company pitched anonymization solution for smart TV and smart home appliances to LG and Samsung representatives in Korea. Their reaction to a proposal was, to put it kindly, terrifying and highly defensive. They said they are doing nothing wrong, no data has been leaked snd that there is no future for our solution, sensing huge discomfort. Quite evident they have zero interest to gamble status quo on current situation.
- soared 7y ago
  You pitched them a way to make less money?
advaita 7y ago
Quick question for anyone who understands legal side of this, would Smart TV/ Smart TV manufacturers fall under CCPA when it goes into effect?
- kitotik 7y ago
  IANAL, but if the data is being shared with “3rd parties” and/or “service providers” they definitely would. Sadly, I doubt it will actually be enforced by the California AG anytime soon.
hypewatch 7y ago
And it’s really hard to buy a good quality new TV that’s not smart
jngreenlee 7y ago
Just a quick note... hotel/hospitality versions don't have these requirements. Look for them on Alibaba and overstock.
- puranjay 7y ago
  That's a really smart tip. Thanks for sharing!
Diesel555 7y ago
Roku scares me when I'm watching movies on my Rapsberry Pi. They are .mp4 files. I'm not using their software at all... and about 2 minutes in I get a pop-up "You can view this move elsewhere at XYZ." How do they know what movie I'm watching? They are analyzing the feed. Scary.
- cbg0 7y ago
  > They are analyzing the feed. Scary. More likely just looking at the title of the file and matching that against themoviedb.
  - sintaxi 7y ago
    My guess would be the distribution companies provide them a hash table of MD5s that maps popular torrents to places where they can be purchased. The company that makes the TV sells this services to the distribution company and/or gets a cut of the sales. Furthermore, it probably logs the IP of the person watching the pirated file and sells that data also.
    - crtasm 7y ago
      All the device is seeing in this case is audio+video over the HDMI connection, no way it can md5sum the source file.
  - joshu 7y ago
    no. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognitio...
  - GhostVII 7y ago
    I think they are just fingerprinting the video and audio. They shouldn't have access to the actual file that is being played if you are just connecting the TV to the raspberry pi. I think I saw another thread where someone from Roku confirmed this (I had the same thing happen and it annoyed me so I looked it up).
- 7y ago
homerhomer 7y ago
My Roku TV is the most blocked computer on my network with the pi-hole.
stjohnswarts 7y ago
My 11 year old philips is still fine.
t34543 7y ago
Commercial display panels are “dumb” and a good alternative to the consumer junk that’s forced down our throats.
vasundhar 7y ago
every 2 seconds all devices speak to google, if you have one amazon echo, one fire tv, google chrome cast , roku then your entire life of every moment is in google hands.
- 34679 7y ago
  Don't forget cell phones and Fitbits.
vasundhar 7y ago
Every 2 seconds all devices speak to google, if you have one amazon echo, one fire tv, google chrome cast , roku then your entire life of every moment is in google hands.
a_imho 7y ago
How is this different from phones or other smart devices?
- arminiusreturns 7y ago
  Two wrongs don't make a right. We should be fighting against the surveillance of those systems also.
arminiusreturns 7y ago
Once again, a problem that could easily be solved by requiring a right to root as part of the right to repair. I hate how so many of these are running linux on the underside but you can't do anything with it. I had a friend who got a Samsung smarttv and when I looked up rooting it, the chances were high of bricking it, so we decided not to do it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the way we prevent this is in right to repair legislation that includes the right to root.
tehabe 7y ago
I own an Samsung smart TV and will so in the future but I wonder if this is only true if you activate the "smart hub" or if this is this true if you just connect the device to your network. I personally use a Chromecast for my smart TV needs, which of course Google knows everything about. But the chromecast can't see anything else I do, no broadcast TV or if I use the DLNA function. I wonder when right holders demand those information to sue people who watch "illegal" content on their TVs.
walterkrankheit 7y ago
Not connecting to Wifi doesn't really seem to be an option for me. I bought my Samsung smart TV purely with the intention of using it for Netflix, Blu-Ray and Youtube (which is already tracked). It sometimes connects to television if the source gets switched, but I've randomly had it on the same German nature channel since day one. I'm not even sure what the rules are for TV tracking in Germany though.
fulldecent2 7y ago
Here is the actual Samsung screen that you can't opt out of: https://twitter.com/fulldecent/status/1067258123545661441 https://twitter.com/fulldecent/status/1067258123545661441
- ozymandias12 7y ago
  Actually you can opt out nowadays. For Samsung smart tvs: Menu > Smart Hub > Terms and Conditions Inside there will be several terms of these tracking companies. Go inside each and all of them and check the box: I don't agree with these terms There. No consent for track. Have not tested network wise if the tracking persists, but in theory, removing consent should mean they can't collect it.
tyingq 7y ago
TCL says you can disable the internal Roku and make it a dumb TV. https://support.tclusa.com/televisions-setup-configurations/189404-can-you-turn-off-the-roku-feature-and-use-it-as-a-regular-tv https://support.tclusa.com/televisions-setup-configurations/...
benmarks 7y ago
We need legislation which deals with the reality of the PII loophole. While the ACR data on its own may not identify me/my household, it absolutely does once it's combined with the rest of my fingerprint in the cloud.
6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
The sooner GDPR and CCPA and others outlaw practices like this, the better. I use my TV as a big monitor, and if I happen to have accidentally agreed to something whose fine print allows this, it could have sent some really sensitive information. Could you imagine if your smartphone screen or your computer monitor did this? I think samsung makes the iphone screens. What if they randomly sent screenshots with personal identifiers back to samsung? Who in their company possibly would possibly think this is okay?
throwanem 7y ago
For now, at least, you can turn off ACR in a Roku TV's settings (tested on a 43" TCL Series 5).
dillutedfixer 7y ago
Nice, my smart TV has been peeping on me playing Peep Show on repeat. More seriously, our privacy has been nullified by ferocious marketing and advertising tactics. Data collection has weaved its way into the design of most of the products we use, it was only a matter of time. I know you can opt out of all of the collection on a Samsung. Just have to not agree to all of the Terms and Services. That being said, I've heavily isolated the Samsung in the house. It sits on its own VLAN that cant talk to anything else on the lan and use some heavy white/blacklisting at the DNS level to limit what it can get to on the internet. I'm sure it's still uploading something about me to somewhere though.
jim-greer 7y ago
Sadly, few people are likely to pay more for a TV that doesn’t track them. There’s research on this. https://www.datainnovation.org/2019/01/national-survey-finds-few-americans-willing-to-pay-for-privacy/ https://www.datainnovation.org/2019/01/national-survey-finds...
opan 7y ago
Can anyone recommend brands or models for a fun and hackable TV? Something to let me run my own software on it and remove any ads or unwanted features from menus (I don't want any big Netflix or Hulu buttons). Maybe something running Android. Preferably something with an existing community around it, like an equivalent to OpenWRT or LineageOS for TVs.
ksec 7y ago
Which is the reason why Apple should enter the TV market. The argument against it from the likes of Benedict Evans to Horace Dediu has been TV is a low margin business, but so are all the Android Phones in the bottom 60% of the market. I still dont get it. And since Apple TV sort of means 5 to 6 different things [1], they might as well make an actual Apple TV set to make it even more complicated. If there are two things that I think Apple should really do, are Wireless Router and TV. I dont want a Google Nest WiFi or Amazon Eero. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438152
pedrorissato 7y ago
I kinda have a felling that in a future not to far, iots devices collecting our data will be mandatory... and if you want a device that do not collect your data you'll probably end it up having to pay 3-5x more for that product. Its kind of an addiction and companies need rehab already.
- panpanna 7y ago
  This is most certainly what will happen if there is not a massive push back from consumers soon. And I don't see it coming. Older people don't even seem to care that Imo is secretly recording them as longs as they can videochat with their grandchildren. Younger people are just happy for their new shiny toys.
tripzilch 7y ago
If you have one of these types of TVs, may I suggest trying to make a simple YouTube video showing clearly how to navigate the menus to disable these tracking features? That way, people with less technical know-how (like, say, my parents) can follow the instructions and get more privacy. At least, I assume they can be disabled? I don't think it would fly with the GDPR otherwise?

481 points by lsh 7y ago

I had a very nice Sharp Aquos TV for a long time. One of the first reasonably priced 1080p 65" TVs. It had absolutely no "smart" features, which was perfectly fine with me. I have my TV hooked up to a home theatre system and have my devices (PS4/AppleTV/XB1/Nvidia Shield) hooked up to that. I recently upgraded to a LG 4K OLED TV. It's an absolutely gorgeous TV, but, I absolutely lament the "smart" features of this TV. I get software update prompts on a regular basis for software I don't use (I'm sure there would be some for the base system anyway, but, an order of magnitude less). The prompts when setting up the TV to accept myriad EULAs are obnoxious. Pop-ups advertising "features" on my TV which I don't want? Ugh. I really want either a manufacturer who resells these panels with 0 features, or a mode from LG which disables all of this. "Lock to HDMI1 and disable everything but color management features". More on-topic with the article: I'm a pretty tech and legally-savvy guy, but, even I'm not sure I've toggled the correct order of knobs and declined the correct EULAs to disable that tracking. Moreover, I'm exactly 0% sure that someone else didn't try to watch Netflix (via the TV and not the AppleTV/Shield/PS4/etc) and wasn't prompted to accept EULAs to do that. My point is, if I can't even do this properly, normal people have a near 0% chance of disabling tracking. That said, it's a fantastically gorgeous panel. I've had a lot of fun re-watching older favorite movies in 4K.

unstatusthequo 7y ago
Yeah even when toggling options to stop tracking, I don’t trust it. I will usually find what it calls out to and block it on my home network with Pi-Hole. I also am moving to projector which may have less “smart” bs crammed in there. But, I haven’t researched that yet to see if that’s true or not.
- AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
  I don't think the options are blatantly false, the legal teams at these respective companies would never allow them to be demonstrably false. I do think they are as confusing as possible and designed to be as difficult as possible to place in "max privacy" mode and as easy as possible to place in "max tracking" mode. > block it on my home network with Pi-Hole That's a really good idea. I just configured my firewall (Palo Alto) to block the TV, I'm not sure why I didn't think of that.
  - shyn3 7y ago
    Look through this, they seem to connect to open WiFi networks. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/bpr6xs/if_you_choose_to_not_connect_your_samsung_smart/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/bpr6xs/if_you_choo...
    - Silhouette 7y ago
      I've been arguing for a long time that the "don't connect it to your network" defence was insufficient because sooner or later these devices will simply start including their own connectivity as well. Various other categories of device, notably cars, already do, and frequently abuse it for tracking purposes. My take on this is that we should impose the kind of draconian restrictions we have here in the UK on products like cigarettes. You can buy them, age restrictions permitting, but they are legally required to cover a large part of their packaging with prominent disclosures of the harm they cause. If devices with consumer-hostile measures like phone home functionality were similarly required to disclose it, and exactly what it is doing, on their packaging and other promotional materials, average consumers might start asking more questions instead of just the relatively small and so usually insignificant class of techie consumers. If that still didn't produce meaningful competition, outright prohibition by law might be the only solution.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
        "We collect viewing data when you use our TV in order to recommend other content you might like" will probably not really move the needle for most consumers.
DrPhish 7y ago
What you are looking for are called "Commercial Displays" or "Digital Signage" Expect to pay a premium, but they are generally simple panels built to endure a very heavy duty cycle and harsher-than-a-living-room environment
- troydavis 7y ago
  I looked in to this and at least for large sizes as of earlier this year, commercial displays aren't practical. The premium isn't 10% or 20% (which I'd gladly pay to omit "features" that disclose data to third parties), it's $2000-$5000 (60%-150%). Also, for that massive premium, commercial displays often don't include HDR, HDMI features (CEC, ARC), and sometimes even 4k. They aren't a realistic solution.
- AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
  The panels aren't nearly as nice as the ones you can get on consumer TVs. LG C9 OLED is a thing to behold.
WA 7y ago
Which model is it?
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
I think we've reached the point where the only safe way of buying a TV is to buy a business conference room display or large screen monitor instead. Seems to be the only way to get something without all the dystopian crap.
- pimeys 7y ago
  But then you're losing all of the goodies for movies and games, such as proper color space or contrast. Usually the business TVs are anything but good for movies.
  - Sharlin 7y ago
    But consumer TVs nowadays come with absolutely hideous defaults, with color, contrast and sharpness adjusted to first and foremost compete for attention against other manufacturers on store shelves. It's gotten bad enough that stores now offer adjustment services — for a price, obviously — just to get the picture to look the way it should in the first place!
    - jmccorm 7y ago
      You’re absolutely right. Commonly referred to as “scorch” mode.
    - MagnumPIG 7y ago
      The factory tint setting is always too high!
  - namibj 7y ago
    I will counter with the Iiyama prolite x4071uhsu-b1, the highest-contrast (5000:1 typ) LCD I have ever seen with such a competitive sticker price. 500~600$ 4k 40". Up to 75Hz @24bit color or 60Hz @40bit color. It has zero smart stuff, and comes with an RS232 input for which documentation exists to control _everything_ remotely. I think the latter is due to it's brother being a 24/7 rated digital signage device, which typically implies remote management. I'm passively looking for a newer model for a potential secondary setup on a different desk/location, but haven't stumbled on anything I'd prefer.
wvenable 7y ago
> My point is, if I can't even do this properly, normal people have a near 0% chance of disabling tracking. The other point is that all these features are advertised on the box (Netflix, Alexa integration, etc) but you can't even use them unless you accept those EULA prompts.
- o-__-o 7y ago
  If you don’t accept you can return for a refund. Something tells me lots of ppl accept tho
ownagefool 7y ago
Yeah, I'd really like slightly better support for plugging in something smart into a dumb TV. In the UK, if my shield would show freeview TV channels I'd probably never need to leave the interface, and thus I'd be happy to lock a TV into a shield slave. Unfortunately it just doesn't work like that for us over here though.
- nr152522 7y ago
  I have a HD Homerun and the channels app for that. I’m using the shield exclusively for smart features and the OLED as a dumb display.
  - ownagefool 7y ago
    That's interesting. Thanks of making me aware.
tekstar 7y ago
I recently bought an LG OLED as well. I never connected it to my network and never will. It was a dark pattern during setup. The options were to connect via LAN or WIFI, and only by scrolling into "nothing" did a skip option appear. This ImO is the only option and even then I bet it's trying to exhilarate data by like trying to connect to a phone or high frequency audio or something.
- xwdv 7y ago
  How do you install firmware updates??
  - kspacewalk2 7y ago
    I bought a dumb tv in 2013 that I still use just fine without any firmware updates. It's a screen, it needs no updates.
    - o-__-o 7y ago
      I plugged in my pre-all-devices-spy 10 year old dumb tv to the network for the first time and now it hounds me for firmware updates.... I always reject because I don’t want it to learn how to spy on me. Pretty sure my firetv phones my hdmi content home
      - dghughes 7y ago
        Can't you set the onboard clock back a few years to fool it?
  - defen 7y ago
    If it's not on the network why would you need firmware updates? (serious question)
    - newnewpdro 7y ago
      Bugs affecting its base functionality?
glitchc 7y ago
Just unplug it from the network. That should get rid of most of it. I have an LG smart TV that has never seen the network. I get no ads, no popups, no features, no EULA, nothing. It behaves like a dumb TV. It was the LG 65UH series from Costco.
- codezero 7y ago
  I wonder if one day they’ll connect to other TVs that are online to get around the WiFi.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Or have a GPS and realize that it’s been 12 months since their last mandatory update and lock you out.
    - SteveNuts 7y ago
      Why would you need a GPS for that?
      - tristor 7y ago
        GPS provides high quality RTC signals. So the TV could update its time with high accuracy via GPS and countdown a timer.
        SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
        Thankfully the majority of people use their TV indoors.
        corint 7y ago
        All you need is to glimpse 1 satellite for a short while if you're looking for a roughly accurate time. You need 3 to get a position fix, but fewer will still give you the time.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Fiahil 7y ago
I just bought a LG OLED as well. This screen is amazingly good ! I connected it to the network in order to watch netflix, and unchecked all tracking and advertising related EULAs. I'm also running a pihole on my network, so most third party ads will be denied from reaching the TV.
technofiend 7y ago
Just one humble non-lawyer's opinion but I'd love to see merchantability and fitness laws updated to explicitly bar reduced functionality without the forced exchange of consumer data, which is what's happening here. Manufacturers claim they are subsidizing the TVs via data collection, assuming that's true then banning the reduction of features unless the consumer opts in then raises the bar on every manufacturer. If TVs go back up in price so be it.

dawnerd 7y ago

I stopped connecting my TVs to the internet when Samsung started pushing notification ads for GameFly on a (at the time) 3k dollar first gen 4K tv - and they lied and said no they’d never do that. They’ve all lost my trust.

prawn 7y ago
I disabled autoupdates on everything after a smart TV whose dashboard I'd laid out to suit me, auto-updated and insisted on dashboard apps that I never wanted and couldn't delete or hide. Got an Apple TV and have not touched the smart TV features since.
- sowbug 7y ago
  Sounds like Vizio. Five years now and I still re-delete the Yahoo Finance app every couple months.
  - jerrysievert 7y ago
    I once connected my vizio tv to the wifi. ended up having to change the wifi password, since there was no way to forget the network on the vizio. haven't had an update since, and not upset about that.
jay_kyburz 7y ago
Wow, I didn't know it was that bad! I've never connected my tv's to the internet. I normally run a full PC behind them to access our media and for apps.
McDev 7y ago
In addition to push notifications, they kept pushing their TV+ app to the first position of my apps selector. I kept removing it. Then I just switched off internet access. Smart TVs are dumb.
petepete 7y ago
This might be of use. However I don't blame you for not using it altogether. https://gist.github.com/peteryates/b44b70d19ccd52f62d66cdd4bcef1e52 https://gist.github.com/peteryates/b44b70d19ccd52f62d66cdd4b...

makecheck 7y ago

The smarter a TV is, the stupider it breaks too. My parents had a TV with a built-in Skype app, and at some point the TV maker stopped supporting it. After that, every single time the TV was turned on the TV popped up a vague modal error message (that didn’t even mention Skype, just “an app” or something). I verified that it is impossible to turn off this message or do anything about it. Think about the stupidity.

c22 7y ago
I bought a Vizio tv a couple years ago that came with a very simple remote. The remote had power, volume, channel, and input buttons and nothing else. It seemed like they intended you to pair it with a smart phone to change any real settings. At some point about 8 months after I bought it turning on the screen caused a message to be displayed informing me that there was a new more fully-featured remote available and that they'd send one to me for free if I registered at the displayed url. The message could only be dismissed using a button that did not exist on the included remote. I literally could not use the television for two weeks while I waited for the new remote to arrive in the mail.

codedokode 7y ago

You are discussing here how to isolate the TV into a separate firewalled network, but for an average consumer this is too difficult. What an average consumer wants is to watch Youtube and Netflix and not bother about settings. If I was a TV manufacturer I would install a video camera and microphone and record everything and people would still buy my TVs.

gumby 7y ago

Surely this is a non-issue if you don’t connect the TV itself to the internet?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rladd 7y ago
Not if you use a box like Roku, etc.
- cryptozeus 7y ago
  Won’t the roku only needs to be connected to internet and not tv itself? Right ?
deergomoo 7y ago
Also worth noting that with a lot of TVs, you can download firmware updates to a USB stick, then install them directly to the TV. Occasionally the out-of-the-box firmware on TVs can perform poorly on certain input modes, so it's nice to have an option to get the latest patches without opening yourself up to tracking and ads. That said, the idea of a TV needing patches is thoroughly unappealing.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Buttons840 7y ago
Doesn't HDMI share internet connection? So if you connect any HDMI device with an internet connection then your TV will have one too?
- detaro 7y ago
  HDMI optionally does support that, but almost no devices actually do.
  - 7y ago

ga-vu 7y ago

paywall... ugh

haspoken 7y ago
http://archive.is/8Cm3Q http://archive.is/8Cm3Q

tzs 7y ago

I wish that if they are going to insist on making their TVs smart, they would take the time to think about what people who use some of the apps would want. For example, my Samsung has apps that can stream radio, and apps for Spotify and other music services. But it evidently failed to occur to anyone at Samsung that since these are audio apps and do not need to use the screen while playing, I might want to blank the screen once I start the stream. I'm particularly irked at Samsung because when I searched online to see how to blank the screen (I assumed it was obvious that they would include such a feature, and I was just being dimwitted when it came to finding it), I found that they used to have that feature, and they dropped it starting with the model year of my TV!

oAlbe 7y ago
I mean, how are you going to see the ads if the screen is blanked? It's not that they didn't think about it, they did, they just went for the "feature" that benefitted them the most.

qwerty456127 7y ago

It also is extremely hard to fix a smart TV once it gets infected with a virus. Just don't buy smart TVs. Buy a dumb TV, attach a RaspberryPi or an Intel NUC, install Kodi and enjoy.

rco8786 7y ago
Would love to. Who is currently making these dumb TVs? I’m in the market and can’t find anything.
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  Buy a used one. Or even better - buy a projector.
  - rco8786 7y ago
    Not too interested in an old used TV, or a projector really
- namibj 7y ago
  Iiyama is one if them. Don't consider branding, look for tech specs/price.
  - rco8786 7y ago
    They appear to specialize in PC monitors? I see a few commercial-looking LED screens they make but they're super expensive for what they are
    - namibj 7y ago
      They make zero-fuss LCD screens, many of them with standard VESA mounting and HDMI input(s). Some of them are low-duty digital signage, or have a less-beefy desktop brother with the same/similar software and just mechanical/(power) electronics differentiating them between 8/5 and 24/7 usage to keep their warranty. You are looking wrong when you make the price argument. Either your price source is weird, or you're looking at the "wrong" model. Just keep in mind that these are not your generic high-gloss consumer electronics flashy devices, but what a value-oriented engineering office might well use. I have yet to find a better LCD than their x4071uhsu-b1 ... Seriously, if you know of something comparable in contrast ratio: I dread the day mine breaks and I need to find a replacement.

myrakle 7y ago

I use the PCWRT router, and it allows me to block the spying by blacklisting the relevant domains. https://www.pcwrt.com/2018/08/how-to-use-your-router-to-block-smart-tv-snooping/ https://www.pcwrt.com/2018/08/how-to-use-your-router-to-bloc...

butz 7y ago
Any way to build something like this myself, e.g. using Raspberry Pi or DD-WRT supported router?
- netsharc 7y ago
  Google Pi Hole, it's mostly for ads and trackers, but someone probably has a list of "call home" domains, or you can add your own domains/hostnames that you want blocked
  - ownagefool 7y ago
    I believe the blocker just uses a dns server that returns a local IP address for bad domains that serve up a single pixel transparent in place of the ad, so there's a solution on pretty much every platform. Pi-Hole has a nice GUI, but if you already have openwrt, dd-wrt or pfsense, you can likely just install packages.
  - jquinby 7y ago
    There is indeed such a list: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/master/SmartTV.txt https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/m...
- myrakle 7y ago
  DD-WRT would probably let you block domains. Pi-hole might be useful too. To be effective, you need your black or white listing to be device specific, so that you can block your smart TV in whatever way you want to without affecting other devices.
- garrettdimon 7y ago

neonate 7y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20191002013559/https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-watch-tv-your-tv-watches-back/ https://web.archive.org/web/20191002013559/https://www.washi...

noyesno 7y ago
The paywall JavaScript still kicks in after reading the article for a while via archive.org. This should not suffer from the same issue: http://archive.is/8Cm3Q http://archive.is/8Cm3Q

roel_v 7y ago

So I have a samsung tv, and I like the apps - I use the youtube one every day, and several others several times a week. How do I leverage the gdpr to find out who knows what about me?

a_imho 7y ago
You probably need to contact the DPO of each company starting with Samsung and/or consult their dedicated GDPR resources. Unfortunately GDPR is not really enforced thus fails to live up to its promise. In theory you should have nothing to worry about unless you opted in to their data collecting shenanigans. Even if you are prepared to exercise your rights under GDPR in my experience the usual modus operandi is asking for more data via various registration forms and accounts or sending copies of personal IDs. Then if you manage to hand in a Data Request or Deletion Request there is no way to find out whether they really complied or not, making it pointless.

yegor 7y ago

Run a Pi-Hole, use it as the DNS server for your "Smart" TV. Too lazy? Shameless self promotion: https://windscribe.com/features/robert https://windscribe.com/features/robert

fernly 7y ago
Wait wait wait. Windscribe, which looks like a heckuva VPN, where does it run? Because we are talking about filtering or blocking the data flow between the TV and the local router, i.e. the connection between the TV and my Comcast router. How does Windscribe get involved in that stream?
- smileybarry 7y ago
  I'm guessing it's just a DNS server blackholing/NXDOMAIN-ing certain domains and the connections aren't actually proxied, like the old OpenDNS home.

walrus01 7y ago

In my opinion you should not use ANY of the smart features of a "smart" TV. Don't give it your wifi key and don't put it on your LAN. I have about 400% more trust of Microsoft and Sony than I do of random smart tv manufacturers. I also have a fairly high degree of confidence that the xbox one and PS4 software will remain up to date with security patches, and address critical issues quickly. I have no confidence for TVs. Microsoft and Sony have teams of lawyers who've drafted the data collection/data sharing/opt-out policies for what their current generation game consoles track and phone home about. I've seen entirely too many reports of "smart" TVs that start reporting your entire viewing habits, and/or displaying unwanted ads. Use the TV as a dumb display and hook it up to a PS4, Xbox One, and/or home theatre PC.

Scoundreller 7y ago
I trust cableco providers even less than random smartTV manufacturers. And those TV boxes are 2-way obligate devices...
smileybarry 7y ago
> I have about 400% more trust of Microsoft and Sony than I do of random smart tv manufacturers. It should be noted Sony's TVs are different than their game consoles in what they collect and do. They run a relatively clean version of Android TV except for "Samba TV", which is yet another piece of show-recognizing (known as ACR) analytics. However, you can apparently decline its privacy policy on initial setup and even disable the APK entirely in settings[1]. (Some people also succeeded in ripping it and other bundled video apps out via ADB) Even given all that, Sony TVs are probably still the tamest smart TVs out there. > Don't give it your wifi key and don't put it on your LAN. It entirely depends on manufacturer but I've heard of some actually seeking out open networks for internet access if you don't configure their Wi-Fi. Some people reported an unconnected TV suddenly prompted to update because the neighbour's wifi was unsecured. If you can, I'd set up a specific SSID with no LAN or WAN access just in case. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-snooping-features/ https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smar...
- 7y ago

trianglem 7y ago

If you don’t want the “smart” features, just never enter your WiFi password.

mopsi 7y ago
Sadly, this will only push TV manufacturers harder to implement built-in always-on 5G connectivity that completely bypasses the end user.
- gdulli 7y ago
  Would the TV still be harmlessly anonymous, though? If you never logged into anything? Would there be any vectors to tying usage to you?
  - banana_giraffe 7y ago
    Probably. Though, it's only a small step for it to report home which WiFi network is the strongest, even if it never connects, for a Google App on the TV to know who I am. Not that it matters a ton to me. I just don't want another vector for ads, and you can bet that an always on connection will be used to tell me what streaming services the TV can offer me this week if I'd only feed it my WiFi password.
- detaro 7y ago
  Making devices that just don't work without a connection home seems a lot easier.
  - mopsi 7y ago
    How? Bricking a device on purpose is a huge liability. Much easier to install a cheap 5G modem and keep it on as long as data collected is worth more than the peanuts 5G connection will cost to bulk buyers.
    - detaro 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

tyingq 7y ago

This seems fairly easy to me. Just don't configure the WiFi. Add a TV box (FireTV, Apple TV, whatever) that you trust.

Buttons840 7y ago
That FireTV you have plugged in gives the TV an Ethernet connection. So it's more like turn off the WiFi and plug in Ethernet.
- tyingq 7y ago
  Not sure I understand. How does the TV get that through an HDMI cable?
  - Buttons840 7y ago
    HDMI cables can carry Ethernet, not just video.
    - somehnguy 7y ago
      You've repeated this like 9 times in this post but I have yet to see any proof of any devices actually implementing it.
- sjg007 7y ago
  Fire tv has ads too. Apple TV is really the only option unless u go custom.

thom 7y ago

TVs used to be on and showing you a picture before you took your thumb off the channel button on your remote. Good times.

tenebrisalietum 7y ago
The old CRTs I grew up with need a good 15-20 seconds to warm up first, but you did have the audio pretty instantly.

nrp 7y ago

A “Dumb TV” is something I’m exploring developing. There is a gap in the market for a TV with a great panel, no internet connection, and only the processing strictly required for various types of signal processing and format conversion. The closest available solutions are large commercial monitors that cost an arm and a leg.

kingcobraninja 7y ago
The commercial monitors cost more because the price isn't subsidized by user data collection.
- nrp 7y ago
  The data on your viewing habits isn’t worth that sum (making it even sadder that TV OEMs are selling you out). The price deltas are driven by what the market will bear. As expensive as the commercial monitors are, they are a small fraction of the other costs of fitting out the conference rooms and facilities that use them.
  - kalleboo 7y ago
    It's not just data on viewing habits but they also make money though selling shows in the built-in apps, probably also get affiliate payments for people who signed up for Netflix etc through the TV. From the mouth of the CTO of Visio: > So look, it’s not just about data collection. It’s about post-purchase monetization of the TV. > This is a cutthroat industry. It’s a 6-percent margin industry, right? I mean, you know it’s pretty ruthless. You could say it’s self-inflicted, or you could say there’s a greater strategy going on here, and there is. The greater strategy is I really don’t need to make money off of the TV. I need to cover my cost. > And then I need to make money off those TVs. They live in households for 6.9 years — the average lifetime of a Vizio TV is 6.9 years. You would probably be amazed at the number of people come up to me saying, “I love Vizio TVs, I have one” and it’s 11 years old. I’m like, “Dude, that’s not even full HD, that’s 720p.” > But they do last a long time and our strategy — you’ve seen this with all of our software upgrades including AirPlay 2 and HomeKit — is that we want to make things backward compatible to those TVs. So we’re continuing to invest in those older TVs to bring them up to feature level comparison with the new TVs when there’s no hardware limitation that would otherwise prevent that. > And the reason why we do that is there are ways to monetize that TV and data is one, but not only the only one. It’s sort of like a business of singles and doubles, it’s not home runs, right? You make a little money here, a little money there. You sell some movies, you sell some TV shows, you sell some ads, you know. It’s not really that different than The Verge website. > Q: One sort of Verge-nerd meme that I hear in our comments or on Twitter is “I just want a dumb TV. I just want a panel with no smarts and I’ll figure it out on my own.” But it sounds like that lifetime monetization problem would prevent you from just making a dumb panel that you can sell to somebody. > A: Well, it wouldn’t prevent us, to be honest with you. What it would do is, we’d collect a little bit more margin at retail to offset it. Again, it may be an aspirational goal to not have high margins on our TV business because I can make it up downstream. On the other hand, I’m actually aggregating that monetization across a large number of users, some of which opt out. > It’s a blended revenue model where, in the end, Vizio succeeds, but you know, it’s not wholly dependent on things like data collection.

scarejunba 7y ago

It's why the device can be so cheap. Pity they don't offer two variants though. I always did like the way Amazon let you opt in to ads for a cheaper Kindle price. In a past life, I actually helped bridge ad attribution for a bunch of these. Funny.

Macha 7y ago

Unfortunately, I need to consent to tracking by the WaPo to find out how much my Smart TV might be tracking me.

sailfast 7y ago
I’ve found disabling JavaScript on their site also disabled their subscription / paywall API which is all JavaScript.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
  It also happens to disable quite a bit of tracking. Yay for selectively whitelisting JS!

aczerepinski 7y ago

Is there any good 4k tv on the market with zero smart features? I would love to buy a high quality display that can't connect to the internet.

krosaen 7y ago
Just don't connect it and hook whatever you want into an hdmi port
bitwize 7y ago
Most Sceptre TVs come with no smart features. Price is good, too.
- dmm 7y ago
  Be careful most of the Sceptre tvs are RGBW panels so they aren't true 4k.

aerique 7y ago

Why not use a computer display as a dumb TV?

freehunter 7y ago
Computer displays don’t often have speakers built into them or robust support for multiple (2+) HDMI inputs or coax inputs for cable/antenna or RGA inputs. All things people typically expect in a TV.
e1ven 7y ago
It isn't trivial for most people to buy a 55" computer monitor.

sailfast 7y ago

Has anyone successfully hacked any of these TVs to disable the smart features? I would pay some money for this kind of firmware patch on a future purchase. It seems crazy that the software is so terrible and yet nobody has found a way to disable it.

mackal 7y ago
LG and Samsung use Linux. Might be some fun to had analyzing any source code releases.
milofeynman 7y ago
It would be quite nice if there were a single model out there that could be easily hacked and replaced with a speedy interface that does two things, switches HDMI inputs fast and volume control. (And turns off motion blur obviously.) Then maybe you could start throwing other stuff on there.
travisporter 7y ago
This would be great! Ifixit should show us how to remove or isolate the 5g/WiFi chip. Makes me wonder- is there a transparent faraday gage solution?
jaclaz 7y ago
There are projects to replace/root/modify the OS, unfortunately they tend to be about older models and the manufacturers continue changing things and making access more difficult. Examples: https://wiki.samygo.tv/index.php?title=Main_Page https://wiki.samygo.tv/index.php?title=Main_Page https://forum.xda-developers.com/web-os/general/rooting-webos-tv-t3656027 https://forum.xda-developers.com/web-os/general/rooting-webo...

seventwoworlds 7y ago

Wow, who would've guessed! Not me! /s

bitwize 7y ago

Just get a Sceptre TV. Up to 4K resolution, no smart features.

brightrooms 7y ago

Not just tvs. All appliances are getting "smart". Refrigerators, washers, etc are or will track you too. You'll have the convenience of connecting to your fridge to see what you need to buy at the supermarket. Eventually, the fridge will just send you notifications of things you need to buy. Very convenient, but the fridge manufacturer will also know what you eat, when you shop, where you shop and everything you do in your kitchen. I suspect sooner or later, there will be period of consolidation amongst the appliance companies so that they will be able to see everything you do in your house.

WWLink 7y ago
5 years ago I bough the cheapest side-by-side fridge Best Buy had. It is a $900 whirlpool OEM Amana. It's as dumb as the refrigerator my parents had 20 years ago. :D No complaints here! It works great!
- perl4ever 7y ago
  I got a GE washer/dryer pair recently that seem to be pretty "dumb" - no wifi, no electronic display, washer is top loading and has an agitator, you can set it to use a reasonable amount of water... And despite GE becoming a Chinese brand, they seem to have regained a reputation for reliability somewhat, based on the reviews I read.

goombastic 7y ago

You don't get non-smart/dumb TVs that easily anymore.

ph2082 7y ago

I shifted house 3 years ago and sold old TV at that time. Thought going to buy new Smart TV. But 1 month passed and I didn't missed TV (also skeptical about tracking thing). I realised after spending working hours in front of Monitor/Laptop, my eyes can use some rest. So NO TV in weekdays. I have bought 30 inch monitor, connected to home desktop and use it for entertainment - Netflix, sports etc. NO TV is an option. Some day going to upgrade to bigger monitor.

jernejzen 7y ago

Earlier this year my company pitched anonymization solution for smart TV and smart home appliances to LG and Samsung representatives in Korea. Their reaction to a proposal was, to put it kindly, terrifying and highly defensive. They said they are doing nothing wrong, no data has been leaked snd that there is no future for our solution, sensing huge discomfort. Quite evident they have zero interest to gamble status quo on current situation.

soared 7y ago
You pitched them a way to make less money?

advaita 7y ago

Quick question for anyone who understands legal side of this, would Smart TV/ Smart TV manufacturers fall under CCPA when it goes into effect?

kitotik 7y ago
IANAL, but if the data is being shared with “3rd parties” and/or “service providers” they definitely would. Sadly, I doubt it will actually be enforced by the California AG anytime soon.

hypewatch 7y ago

And it’s really hard to buy a good quality new TV that’s not smart

jngreenlee 7y ago

Just a quick note... hotel/hospitality versions don't have these requirements. Look for them on Alibaba and overstock.

puranjay 7y ago
That's a really smart tip. Thanks for sharing!

Diesel555 7y ago

Roku scares me when I'm watching movies on my Rapsberry Pi. They are .mp4 files. I'm not using their software at all... and about 2 minutes in I get a pop-up "You can view this move elsewhere at XYZ." How do they know what movie I'm watching? They are analyzing the feed. Scary.

cbg0 7y ago
> They are analyzing the feed. Scary. More likely just looking at the title of the file and matching that against themoviedb.
- sintaxi 7y ago
  My guess would be the distribution companies provide them a hash table of MD5s that maps popular torrents to places where they can be purchased. The company that makes the TV sells this services to the distribution company and/or gets a cut of the sales. Furthermore, it probably logs the IP of the person watching the pirated file and sells that data also.
  - crtasm 7y ago
    All the device is seeing in this case is audio+video over the HDMI connection, no way it can md5sum the source file.
- joshu 7y ago
  no. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognitio...
- GhostVII 7y ago
  I think they are just fingerprinting the video and audio. They shouldn't have access to the actual file that is being played if you are just connecting the TV to the raspberry pi. I think I saw another thread where someone from Roku confirmed this (I had the same thing happen and it annoyed me so I looked it up).
7y ago

homerhomer 7y ago

My Roku TV is the most blocked computer on my network with the pi-hole.

stjohnswarts 7y ago

My 11 year old philips is still fine.

t34543 7y ago

Commercial display panels are “dumb” and a good alternative to the consumer junk that’s forced down our throats.

vasundhar 7y ago

every 2 seconds all devices speak to google, if you have one amazon echo, one fire tv, google chrome cast , roku then your entire life of every moment is in google hands.

34679 7y ago
Don't forget cell phones and Fitbits.

vasundhar 7y ago

Every 2 seconds all devices speak to google, if you have one amazon echo, one fire tv, google chrome cast , roku then your entire life of every moment is in google hands.

a_imho 7y ago

How is this different from phones or other smart devices?

arminiusreturns 7y ago
Two wrongs don't make a right. We should be fighting against the surveillance of those systems also.

arminiusreturns 7y ago

Once again, a problem that could easily be solved by requiring a right to root as part of the right to repair. I hate how so many of these are running linux on the underside but you can't do anything with it. I had a friend who got a Samsung smarttv and when I looked up rooting it, the chances were high of bricking it, so we decided not to do it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the way we prevent this is in right to repair legislation that includes the right to root.

tehabe 7y ago

I own an Samsung smart TV and will so in the future but I wonder if this is only true if you activate the "smart hub" or if this is this true if you just connect the device to your network. I personally use a Chromecast for my smart TV needs, which of course Google knows everything about. But the chromecast can't see anything else I do, no broadcast TV or if I use the DLNA function. I wonder when right holders demand those information to sue people who watch "illegal" content on their TVs.

walterkrankheit 7y ago

Not connecting to Wifi doesn't really seem to be an option for me. I bought my Samsung smart TV purely with the intention of using it for Netflix, Blu-Ray and Youtube (which is already tracked). It sometimes connects to television if the source gets switched, but I've randomly had it on the same German nature channel since day one. I'm not even sure what the rules are for TV tracking in Germany though.

fulldecent2 7y ago

Here is the actual Samsung screen that you can't opt out of: https://twitter.com/fulldecent/status/1067258123545661441 https://twitter.com/fulldecent/status/1067258123545661441

ozymandias12 7y ago
Actually you can opt out nowadays. For Samsung smart tvs: Menu > Smart Hub > Terms and Conditions Inside there will be several terms of these tracking companies. Go inside each and all of them and check the box: I don't agree with these terms There. No consent for track. Have not tested network wise if the tracking persists, but in theory, removing consent should mean they can't collect it.

tyingq 7y ago

TCL says you can disable the internal Roku and make it a dumb TV. https://support.tclusa.com/televisions-setup-configurations/189404-can-you-turn-off-the-roku-feature-and-use-it-as-a-regular-tv https://support.tclusa.com/televisions-setup-configurations/...

benmarks 7y ago

We need legislation which deals with the reality of the PII loophole. While the ACR data on its own may not identify me/my household, it absolutely does once it's combined with the rest of my fingerprint in the cloud.

6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago

The sooner GDPR and CCPA and others outlaw practices like this, the better. I use my TV as a big monitor, and if I happen to have accidentally agreed to something whose fine print allows this, it could have sent some really sensitive information. Could you imagine if your smartphone screen or your computer monitor did this? I think samsung makes the iphone screens. What if they randomly sent screenshots with personal identifiers back to samsung? Who in their company possibly would possibly think this is okay?

throwanem 7y ago

For now, at least, you can turn off ACR in a Roku TV's settings (tested on a 43" TCL Series 5).

dillutedfixer 7y ago

Nice, my smart TV has been peeping on me playing Peep Show on repeat. More seriously, our privacy has been nullified by ferocious marketing and advertising tactics. Data collection has weaved its way into the design of most of the products we use, it was only a matter of time. I know you can opt out of all of the collection on a Samsung. Just have to not agree to all of the Terms and Services. That being said, I've heavily isolated the Samsung in the house. It sits on its own VLAN that cant talk to anything else on the lan and use some heavy white/blacklisting at the DNS level to limit what it can get to on the internet. I'm sure it's still uploading something about me to somewhere though.

jim-greer 7y ago

Sadly, few people are likely to pay more for a TV that doesn’t track them. There’s research on this. https://www.datainnovation.org/2019/01/national-survey-finds-few-americans-willing-to-pay-for-privacy/ https://www.datainnovation.org/2019/01/national-survey-finds...

opan 7y ago

Can anyone recommend brands or models for a fun and hackable TV? Something to let me run my own software on it and remove any ads or unwanted features from menus (I don't want any big Netflix or Hulu buttons). Maybe something running Android. Preferably something with an existing community around it, like an equivalent to OpenWRT or LineageOS for TVs.

ksec 7y ago

Which is the reason why Apple should enter the TV market. The argument against it from the likes of Benedict Evans to Horace Dediu has been TV is a low margin business, but so are all the Android Phones in the bottom 60% of the market. I still dont get it. And since Apple TV sort of means 5 to 6 different things [1], they might as well make an actual Apple TV set to make it even more complicated. If there are two things that I think Apple should really do, are Wireless Router and TV. I dont want a Google Nest WiFi or Amazon Eero. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438152

pedrorissato 7y ago

I kinda have a felling that in a future not to far, iots devices collecting our data will be mandatory... and if you want a device that do not collect your data you'll probably end it up having to pay 3-5x more for that product. Its kind of an addiction and companies need rehab already.

panpanna 7y ago
This is most certainly what will happen if there is not a massive push back from consumers soon. And I don't see it coming. Older people don't even seem to care that Imo is secretly recording them as longs as they can videochat with their grandchildren. Younger people are just happy for their new shiny toys.

tripzilch 7y ago

If you have one of these types of TVs, may I suggest trying to make a simple YouTube video showing clearly how to navigate the menus to disable these tracking features? That way, people with less technical know-how (like, say, my parents) can follow the instructions and get more privacy. At least, I assume they can be disabled? I don't think it would fly with the GDPR otherwise?