25 ms·

Uber loses licence to operate in London, will still operate while appealing

256 points by reubensutton 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
caithrin 7y ago
"Only in the last few months it has been established that 14,000 Uber journeys have involved fraudulent drivers uploading their photos to other driver accounts - with passengers' safety potentially put at risk getting into cars with unlicensed and suspended drivers." This seems, from a technical perspective, an easy problem to solve with the resources of a public company. Is it the desperation of people who need the money so badly they will constantly cheat the system? Can you design for that?
- xwolfi 7y ago
  I wonder what we could do, let's think...maybe...a taxi medalion with a public exam ? :D They tried to solve the problem from the wrong angle, and it turns out that the high cost of taxis, while suboptimal for sure, might not be entirely for no reason.
  - ReptileMan 7y ago
    Only if the exam is cheap (not easy) and number of medallions is unlimited. (I got your joke, don't worry)
    - bengillies 7y ago
      The prices are listed on this page[1]. Looks pretty expensive to me. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing/apply-for-a-taxi-driver-licence#on-this-page-3 https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing...
      - sacheendra 7y ago
        < 1000 pounds for what is basically license for a livelihood seems cheap.
      - Symbiote 7y ago
        That is for the "black cab" taxis, the ones you can hail by waving on the street. For a private hire vehicle (the kind you telephone or use an app to book), the price is under £700 (under £500 if the driver speaks English). That doesn't seem unreasonable. The GP comment was referring to the American system where the license are traded at very high costs (tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars). https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing/private-hire-driver-licence https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing...
      - michaelt 7y ago
        Those are the prices for becoming a black cab driver (allowed to respond to street hails and use taxi ranks) - to drive for Uber only requires a "private hire driver" license. The private hire license avoids the need for "the knowledge" and to have the traditional London black cab. There are still fees involved, of course - but becoming an Uber driver is much less demanding than becoming a black cab driver.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    I think a better solution to a lot of problems would be to hand out licenses quickly and revoke them quickly. The value of posessing a license can often be questionable but the ability to stop rule breakers is incredibly useful.
- onion2k 7y ago
  This seems, from a technical perspective, an easy problem to solve with the resources of a public company. Is it the desperation of people who need the money so badly they will constantly cheat the system? Can you design for that? I don't think the motivation on the part of the drivers who do this is very important. They're intentionally deceiving Uber customers, and in some cases endangering them. That just has to stop, even if the driver is desperate. The point here is that it's Uber's responsibility to stop it happening, and Uber has apparently chosen not to (like you, it's not that hard). That will be very hard to justify, especially as Uber were running TV ads about how they do background checks on all their drivers here in the UK recently.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Other than constant facial recognition via camera pointed at the driver, how does anyone (not just Uber), guarantee that an approved driver doesn’t get out of the car and a non approved driver get in and start driving? Perhaps a selfie with the driver taken by the passengers during the drive would also suffice. In my opinion, Uber has done enough. They provide the passenger with the drivers name and photo. It’s up to the passenger to verify, but Uber should make violations easy to report.
    - JazCE 7y ago
      using the fingerprint reader on a phone to accept any job?
      - darkwater 7y ago
        Fingerprint on a phone (either iOS or Android) only authenticates the local phone user, it doesn't really expose any mean of unique identification to the app. So, basically even if you enforce fingerprinting to use the app, it would just authenticate/match whatever fingerprint was registered in the underlying OS.
    - us0r 7y ago
      >It’s up to the passenger to verify, but Uber should make violations easy to report. They are. Click a trip, scroll down, click "my driver was unprofessional", click "my driver didnt match the profile in my app". The problem is most people dont report stuff to uber. I hear stories all the time from people and everytime I ask if they reported the driver they say no.
- JazCE 7y ago
  Surely a decent solution would be for the uber driver having to use their fingerprint to initialise the app before every journey (as long as they're not using a galaxy s10)
- PJDK 7y ago
  How do you stop one person signing up, doing the whole verification process correctly and then someone else using the app/driving the car? The only safeguard that springs to mind is providing a photo of the driver to the user, but that's already implemented. You could also do spot checks (no idea if they do or not), but that's not going to eliminate the problem just reduce it.
  - us0r 7y ago
    They have had this since 2016[0]. The problem is you have uber logic behind it. The only time it asks me to verify is when I'm on the highway and turn the app off and back on. I guess they think I'm tossing the phone to the car next to me while going 65? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2016/9/23/13030682/uber-driver-selfie-facial-scan-fraud-security https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2...
- ptah 7y ago
  if you can't design for that, then your business is failing a fundamental requirement
- pjc50 7y ago
  > Is it the desperation of people who need the money so badly they will constantly cheat the system? Can you design for that? This is the Internet. If you don't design for people cheating you, they will wreck your system as soon as it becomes popular enough to be visible.
  - Jommi 7y ago
    Which is the exact problem. Ubers smaller competitors have no incentive for heavy regulatory features because they can get away with it. That in turn pushes Uber to not implement them either, until the very last moment.
- lysp 7y ago
  That happens with taxis too in Australia. Unauthorised drivers who don't match their picture ID driving.
dwardu 7y ago
Sign up to Bolt. It has just moved into London a few months ago. https://invite.bolt.eu/HPEEW https://invite.bolt.eu/HPEEW
- grenoire 7y ago
  Are you literally shilling your referral link here..?
  - dwardu 7y ago
    Helping others find an alternative to uber in these dark times
samwillis 7y ago
The article doesn't really explain... their current temporary license (they have been on a temp one since last year) expires at 11.59 tonight, TFL won't give them a new permanent one. This will be in the courts today and they will probably be granted another temporary one before the day is out.
- lamps12 7y ago
  What's the maximum time period one can operate with the temp?
  - user5994461 7y ago
    They've had no license for two years, they should be able to go for another two years for sure without a hitch. I bet they could go on like this forever.
- pgl 7y ago
  From the TfL press release: > Legislation means that Uber now has 21 days to appeal, during which it can continue to operate pending any appeal and throughout any potential appeals process. Uber may seek to implement changes to demonstrate to a magistrate that it is fit and proper by the time of the appeal.
  - Jommi 7y ago
    Exactly, so 21 days + how long the appeal process and outcome takes time. And the end result may as well be them being given a new temp. license.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  Indeed, this action is meaningless until Uber execs are getting hauled off for contempt of court. It’s barely even a slap on the wrist.
JazCE 7y ago
It's from 2017, but this is still relevant: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-not-app/ https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-...
gerardnll 7y ago
I know this opinion is not popular but I'm so happy everytime I see bad news for Uber and all these companies that only exist thanks to basically exploiting THEIR workers. Private transporting is not sustainable and it is not something that has to be affordable for everyone, even less by lowering workers wages or playing with the tariffs by demand. Taxi regulations gives us passengers safety and fair prices. There are taxi apps that work exactly like Uber's like 'Free-now' where you can see your trip, its aproximate cost, the driver's rating... We have to promote governments that support affordable and good quality public transport, even though I love driving alone in my car. I hope Deliveroo, Glovo and other companies are also punished for their labour rights abuses. Make sure your delivery guy is payed fairly or either go to the restaurant yourself. So many years of labour rights fights being attacked by these startups that do not invent anything but base their business model on lower wages.
- djohnston 7y ago
  I can agree with you on worker treatment but I take issue with "So many years of labour rights fights being attacked by these startups that do not invent anything but base their business model on lower wages." The only reason ANY of the taxi companies have improved service with new apps and lower prices is because of the competition introduced by ride sharing companies.
  - gerardnll 7y ago
    Not having an app on your smartphone does not outweight the bad sides to me. In Spain tho, mytaxi came before Uber.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Let's not conflate Uber with ride sharing/app-taxi in general. Uber wasn't the first company of its type, it's only the one that became most known. It also wasn't like all the other ride share companies, it was well-known for utter disregard for laws and deeply sociopathic management. And it's not like this behavior was necessary to bring in all the innovation; disruption of the taxi space by private companies was happening for a while now. Uber only used its antisocial behavior to gain market dominance, and as a side effect it legitimized such dishonorable practices in the startup scene. Personally, I like and use this "new breed" of app-based taxi services (except Uber). I just want to see Uber finally die. It should have died years ago.
pgl 7y ago
Here is the announcement from Transport for London: * https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/november/uber-london-limited-found-to-be-not-fit-and-proper-to-hold-a-private-hire-operator-licence https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/novemb...
n_ary 7y ago
Interesting though, same incident, same news from 2017: hxxps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-41358640 I'd assume, this will be resolved like the last time, just a minor hitch.
- Jommi 7y ago
  Yep, they will challenge it in court, keep running while it happens and then fix the problems and continue their license. At worst (for Uber) it's just some free organic traffic for their competitors.
Traster 7y ago
It's pretty amazing how consistently Uber fails to abide by even the most basic regulations. How many times does a billion dollar company get a second chance? Every time this happens people talk about how the Mayor will get in trouble for this, but let's face it, ride hailing apps are 10 a penny. Lyft, Taxify, MyTaxi? No one in London is going to miss Uber.
- thesimon 7y ago
  > Taxify Bolt > MyTaxi FREE NOW :)
  - m_t 7y ago
    This is an interesting thing. Free Now for instance, previously MyTaxi, previously Hailo. How many time will this thing get rebranded? How many times will my data be shared with new entities?
    - flurdy 7y ago
      I deleted the app. I presumed Hailo/MyTaxi had been taken over. FreeNow just sounds like a scam. Saw no reason to open up the app to find out.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        It's legit. They just got bought or partnered or something with BMW, and the business is intended to consolidate with bike sharing and some other stuffs in Europe. I ride with FreeNow in my city, just as I did with MyTaxi before. Same drivers, same app, same prices, just different colors (and slightly less favorable terms of employment, from what I've heard from the drivers during the time of transition).
      - ablation 7y ago
        FreeNow is as good as it's ever been. Better, in fact. It's the only app I use for this kind of thing as it uses legit, local taxis.
- 7y ago
gorgoiler 7y ago
Deliveroo should suffer a reckoning too, if there’s any sense in the world. Have you ever seen a bunch of Deliveroo riders clogging up the public space outside a restaurant or other public space? Why should one business get to exploit pavements for profit, without regulation. Private companies shouldn’t be able to co-opt public space without scrutiny or permission. Or maybe I’m too ethical and not being enough of a hustler, and I should move my team into the desk space at the local library?
- miracle2k 7y ago
  That seems like a fairly narrow concern to me, but... Maybe the restaurant should pay for the use of that public space of they want to offer delivery?
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    That is one solution, and one that would effectively kill off Deliveroo and its breed.
  - gorgoiler 7y ago
    You’re right, I suppose it is a narrow concern and the solution you highlight would be an appropriate one for that particular problem. It feels though like the delivery driver loitering problem is a red flag for a much larger problem of corporate appropriation being acceptable, without being challenged by those we entrust to look after our public spaces and roads. It’s why a solution like “delivery drivers shouldn’t loiter in public spaces” is a poor solution, and why “private business should not be conducted in public without a license” might be a better and more general message.
- emiliobumachar 7y ago
  I've never seen them, they don't operate in my area. That said, your complaint was unclear. Did they go beyond simple parking into more egregious use of public space, like parking on the sidewalk or blocking traffic? Or is it about public parking? Would it be okay if they were customers instead of delivery workers? How much of a difference does it make that a corporation is involved?
browsermostly 7y ago
TFL should actually provide a reliable service if they want to start pointing fingers. They talk about security and safety but it's not safe to have to wait around hoping for the off chance a scammy black cab will spot you after your TFL train gets cancelled for whatever reason.
- Brakenshire 7y ago
  It sounds like you've never been to London? Who says 'TFL train'?
  - browsermostly 7y ago
    I live in London mate, I was making a distinction between a train that is operated by TFL and a train that is not. I also didn't call it a tube because I was referring more to the overground.
    - Brakenshire 7y ago
      Ah, fair enough, you’re making the distinction for others to understand. The Overground has always worked well for me, it’s unreliable for you?
  - loriverkutya 7y ago
    Anybody who is aware, that TFL operates trains too :)
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    TFL Rail is the name for TFL's temporary services either side of what will be Crossrail. Once Crossrail opens to the public it will all become Crossrail / The Elizabeth Line even those services that don't actually go under London. So TFL do operate trains, even ignoring London Overground which is in effect also TFL.
Normal_gaussian 7y ago
I'd be very happy to see uber kicked out of London long enough for a competitor to take hold. I simply do not trust the company. I accept that the market pressure uber has brought has improved transportation. I do not accept that uber and its repeated atrocious behaviors required for this. Its a shame that uber can so easily bypass tfl with appeals and minor changes.
- nottorp 7y ago
  If uber gets kicked out, the rest of its modern competitors will follow (Uber is big enough to litigate succesfully, but not all are), and you'll be back to the black cabs. 90% of the time, uber is being kicked not because of any concern for safety, but because of traditional taxi company lobbying. Source: personal experience in 2 cities.
  - Jommi 7y ago
    This is actually completely wrong. TFL in the summer granted several licenses for Uber competitors which have now been growing fast inside the city. It's definitely not a take against ridehailing, just against Uber.
oliwarner 7y ago
I don't usually use Uber —we live in a place where it just doesn't exist— but I've been exposed to it a couple of times this last weekend. It's private hire but worse. A family member booked. A driver committed. The wait got shorter. Then it got longer. And longer. And then our trip was cancelled without reason. Another was booked. Same gig. We had no opportunity to 1-star those drivers for being dicks. The third arrived but we didn't get the fabled offer of foot massages, nor were we plied with snacks or drinks. It was just a cab ride with the awkward "You've been great passengers, I'll rate you five stars!" exchange at the end. "Err, thanks mate?" The return trip was pretty similar. It's 1am. Want to go home. One dropped. It's getting really cold now. Second arrives. Again, an entirely standard private hire experience with the added convenience of being asked to rate at the other end. But this lack of recompense for crappy initial service isn't good. If a real private hire did that, you'd use another company and would never use that one again. You'd tell friends and family not to use it. You'd be able to complain to the council about the company. With Uber, you just huddle up and hope the next is better. This is by far one of the more benign complaints you hear about (versus deliberately slow routes to push the top end of the range, or surge pricing) but it absolutely undermines the purported convenience factor. Being able to talk to a manned rank in actual contact with their drivers is so much better in practice.
- 98Windows 7y ago
  Did you use Uber pool?
- leoedin 7y ago
  It sounds like you had a bad experience. Almost everyone I know uses Uber regularly and almost every experience is positive. If it's 3am sometimes it takes longer, if you just got out of a bar and there's 50 other people next to you trying to get an uber you might have to walk a bit, if you're in a remote place sometimes they cancel. It's annoying. But mostly I can have a taxi outside my house in 3 minutes. I know exactly when they'll get there and there's no cash needed. It's a hugely better process than the old phone-a-number and hope minicabs and taxi services. That would take 15 minutes minimum, often much longer, and you had no idea when it would arrive.
matthewfelgate 7y ago
We have a solution for which companies should operate: it's called the free market.
- yaa_minu 7y ago
  The fact that you're being downvoted shows how much of a socialist hell-hole HN has become. No one is forcing people to drive for uber and no one is forcing the rider to use uber. In my city, Accra, Taxis were so expensive until uber came to the market and forced down the price. The only system that puts the consumer (read: common man) first is the free market (if and only if politicians would allow it to work).
  - lidHanteyk 7y ago
    Let's see how much of a capitalist you are. Why do you believe in the Efficient Market Hypothesis? What evidence do you have in its favor? I humbly suggest to you that, if P!=NP, then the Efficient Market Hypothesis (any flavor!) cannot be true, as otherwise we could program markets to solve NP-complete problems in P time. Edit: Remember, downvote means "you are right and I must hide your argument lest it show others my folly". That's how the free marketplace of comments works.
    - yaa_minu 7y ago
      No, let's look at it from a more philosophically objective point of view. Why do you think that the millions of Londoners who voluntarily chose Uber over traditional taxi services should be denied the freedom to choose what taxi services to use?
      - Jommi 7y ago
        If tfl sees Uber not operating by the same standards as others do, then of course they should be punished. Londoners are ofcourse free to use any other other app based ridehailing companies that so comply with tfls regulations.
      - 7y ago
Cougher 7y ago
My favorite cab experiences have been in London, but I'm not gonna lie: my favoritest favorite experience was a cabbie in Tijuana forty years ago who pulled out a bottle of tequila, took a long swig from it and offered the bottle to my mother, father, aunt, and uncle, while driving like he was in a Dukes of Hazard screen test.
zxcvbn4038 7y ago
I tried to use Uber three times in my life, including once in London, and every time I get all the way to try the point where it is looking for nearby cars then it stops and says my phone number is invalid. Contacted their support, sent them a screen shot of my iPhone screen showing my number, they said it was fixed. A few months later I tried to book a car again and exact same thing happened. So I don’t have a lot of sympathy when they fall on hard times. I eventually gave up on Uber and tried Lyft, works painlessly and reliably, a little extra comfort when I’m in a unfamiliar city.
- jki275 7y ago
  Same exact problem for me. I use Lyft also as a result.
tompccs 7y ago
A few things going on here. This is a continuation of an ongoing battle between Tfl and Uber. Last year Tfl threatened to revoke Ubers' license unless it complied with regulations involving basic safety checks and coorporated with British Transport Police over crimes committed by drivers. Well, one year on and Uber has not been able to get its house in order. This move will doubtless be extremely unpopular with Londoners, many of whom will suspect that the black cab unions are behind it. Uber called Tfl's bluff last year knowing there would be a public backlash if their services were withdrawn. It will be interesting to see how it plays out this time. Regardless of your opinion of Uber and their labour practices, they offer an incredibly valuable service to millions of people. They have massively increased the availability of minicabs, made booking them incredibly easy and safe (not to mentioned with far better coverage than was previously possible) and affordable to more people. Not only that, thousands of people now make a living driving Ubers whom before wouldn't have been able to get a job as a minicab driver at all, as the firms would artificially limit numbers to keep fares high. Uber and Tfl are both playing a risky game here.
- Jommi 7y ago
  I think you're overvaluing Uber's footing in the current London market. During the summer several competitors have been granted licenses, and they are reporting healthy and fast growth. Those millions of people can just switch over to one of the other apps and get a nearly identical (and usually cheaper) service. Same with the drivers, the competitors are offering a hugely better deal than Uber is.
  - tompccs 7y ago
    Problem is if drivers are spread more thinly between them. But just the news today should have prompted drivers to sign up to other apps.
traceroute66 7y ago
The problem with Black Cabs in London is that the drivers go around like they are god's gift to Earth. Sure "The Knowledge" is an impressive feat of learning, but more often than not the drivers don't make use of it because the best route is not the most profitable one for the driver. I have lost count of the number of times I have been subjected to the "tourist tax" where the driver heads straight for the major artery roads with their traffic jams (e.g. Kings Road, Strand, Embankment etc.) so you get to sit there watching the meter clock up whilst you move nowhere. Or the number of times the quickest and least-traffic route is South of the river but the driver sticks religiously to the Northen route. Or the number of times the driver fumbles slowly getting the change, in the expectation that you say "oh forget it, keep the change" ... even if that change is £4 or more ! Or when I've been driving around London only for the Black Cab in front of me to stop on a double-red line to drop off a passenger. Or make a U-Turn in the middle of a busy street. Don't get me wrong. I'm not fond of Uber either. Their standard of driving is pretty poor, and I hate the way they sit at the Heathrow DROP-OFF area waiting for their next job. What I am saying is that the London cabbies are in dire need of some stiff competition. Yes I would rather that competition come from someone of better quality than Uber.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  Uber is an alternative to Addison Lee (the largest), or the hundreds of local minicab agencies. The black cabs have different rules and regulations.
- detritus 7y ago
  Uber competes against local cab firms more than it does 'Black Cabs', which tend to be significantly more expensive. Since Uber came to prominence, two local cab firms that I used to rely on a lot have ceased trading, leaving me with only app-based entities such as Uber. Uber has its advantages, but as I've moaned about here on HN in the past, its drivers tend to slavishly follow whatever automatatically-derived route it is that Uber spoon feeds them, often meaning they set off in the wrong direction (based upon which side of the road they pick up from) or use routes that anyone who knows the local area (or has The Knowledge) would do their utmost to avoid.
- 7y ago
user5994461 7y ago
>>> Uber initially lost its licence in 2017 but was granted two extensions, the most recent of which expired on Sunday. The firm will appeal and can continue to operate during that process. What a time to be alive. Don't have and don't need a license.
jonplackett 7y ago
London resident here. I would like to see Uber compared to the existing mini cab companies and black cabs rather than some perfect vision of a taxi company. Uber took off here easily because existing minicabs were all really really crap. Not just expensive but often rude or incompetent drivers. I would guess a lot of them were unregistered and uninsured and their cars barely road legal. Black cabs are Better but very expensive and still rip off tourists all the tine by charging without the meter. Even with the meter it was impossible to get any idea how much a trip would cost before you took it. And you needed cash. Example: One time I got a minicab, it took the guy over half an hour to arrive, then he had to actually find me which took even longer. Then I realised the back seats of the car were full of vomit and he made me ride up front with the windows wide open - it was winter and cold. Then he didn’t know where he was going and got lost and then he charged me £30 for what would have cost £10 on Uber. Uber, by comparison is great.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kkwak 7y ago
got an email from uber saying they'll fight. not sure, but seems like a big win for kapten now.
- Masterkraft 7y ago
  Do not forget Bolt (a.k.a Taxify)
reubeniv 7y ago
hopefully it gets resolved, Uber is much more convenient than traditional taxis, I love that you pay via the app and know the route you're taking, however the issue around unauthorised drivers using regular drivers' profiles is worrying
readhn 7y ago
On one hand i am glad that a transnational company is getting stopped like that, especially when breaking the rules. they are basically a giant money hoover that comes in and sucks the money offshore with offshore interests as #1 priority. on the other hand, often it often takes an outsider to disrupt a well established and corrupt market in order to move it forward.
- aedron 7y ago
  I feel the same way. I can hardly decide whether I dislike Uber or the taxi industry more.
  - pluma 7y ago
    Well, Uber is more exploitative for the drivers and less safe for the riders, so the choice seems clear. On the other hand Uber has a flashy logo and an app and is sometimes cheaper.
    - NikolaNovak 7y ago
      It may be specific to markets. In Canada's national capital region (Ottawa/Gatineau), where I travel to frequently, I've used Uber extensively even though it's more expensive and less convenient (taxi is right in front of hotel, Uber I have to call and wait for), simply because all cars were in good shape and all drivers were polite and reasonable. For some reason in that region, majority of taxi drivers: a) Have cars that are falling apart. Not just significant rust on the car, but frequently wonky suspension, brakes, bearings, etc. b) They strongly believe they are rally drivers, and traffic lights, pedestrians, let alone bicycles, are their mortal enemies. Further, all Uber drivers were happy to be Uber drivers, and 70%+ of Taxi drivers were profoundly, existentially unhappy to be Taxi drivers, and would spend entirety of their ride letting me know why. ---- Now, in principle, just from theory and articles, I'd agree that Uber feels it is / should be more exploitative of drivers and less safe for riders. I personally just haven't found it that way in practice... :-/
      - 7y ago
gerbilly 7y ago
The only thing these disruptive companies (Uber, Deliveroo) are providing is unregulated access to cheap labour in first world countries. I don't know why on earth that even technical people praise them so much. The technical innovations to delivering this cheap labour are just an afterthought.
FpUser 7y ago
Taxi regulations gives us passengers safety and fair prices. Do not know about London. In my location all the money go to paying license fees and to the actual owners of Cabs (any entity with the money but the taxi driver). And how exactly exploiting taxi drivers makes us safer I have no idea. Failure to do criminal background check is also pathetic lame excuse. I really doubt that said former criminal got into taxi driving job and paid all those fees in order to rob/assault passengers.
dominotw 7y ago
>At least 14,000 trips involved drivers who weren’t who the riders thought they were, any idea what the source of this info is? And not sure what the timeframe here is. Is it 14000 since Uber started operating in london?
- stopads 7y ago
  Where I live people give their phones and unlock code to others to drive under their name. They usually do this for drivers who can't pass a background check or even don't have a driver's license, but still need money. The legit driver almost always gets a cut for this, free money on your vacation days or while you're working other, better jobs.
- morrbo 7y ago
  IIRC you can complain (either on uber or uber eats) that the driver didn't look like their photo. It might be from that. Not sure how else they can get the info
  - dominotw 7y ago
    source seems to be TFL not uber and even then that would just be number of possible instances not actual instances reported in the article.
  - cal97g 7y ago
    I've had uber eats deliveries by a women when the user account was male. Not ideal.
- stuaxo 7y ago
  Not sure, but as a passenger in London it's happened to a few times
- zonethundery 7y ago
  Complaints are a possible source, but they also may have identified single accounts with multiple drivers (by reviewing driver profile pic uploads) and then counted all the trips for each.
FpUser 7y ago
Private transporting is not sustainable and it is not something that has to be affordable for everyone I am curious how you get to decide on what should be affordable? And what if somebody disagrees?
omarhaneef 7y ago
Something about this doesn't make sense to me. I take it for granted that the staff at Uber would do anything not to lose the license. I am sure that, for 17 months, they've been investing heavily in security systems, ID verification etc. They must have followed up on every complaint. If I were them, I would have just manually followed everything that the Cabs do till I had a technology in place. It also seems that the city is making some effort to give them space to improve: 15 months, then 2 months. So then why didn't the gap close in time? Is this because the technology platform was so massive that turning it just took more time? Or is there something about the details that I can't see? Edit: I start with the assumption that both Uber and the City are trying to do their best, and don't ascribe nefarious intent to anyone.
- itamarst 7y ago
  You would think Uber Autonomous Vehicles group would do everything they can not to hit pedestrians. Yet according to the NTSB, previous to killing a pedestrian in Arizona Uber had a weak safety culture (https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2019-HWY18MH010-BMG-presentation4.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2019-HWY18MH010-B...). Even worse, "Pedestrian outside crosswalk not assigned goal of crossing street", "Tracking history not considered when classification changes", "Predicted path depended on object’s goal". Basically they configured it to run over people who crossed outside a sidewalk. I would not assume Uber are doing their best. Or, insofar as they define "best", it's "what can we do as quickly as possible with no consideration to what is legal".
  - kd5bjo 7y ago
    > "Pedestrian outside crosswalk not assigned goal of crossing street", "Tracking history not considered when classification changes", "Predicted path depended on object’s goal" To be fair, I could see myself implementing these sort of heuristics to get a working prototype. On the other hand, I deliberately avoid working on life-critical software because of how easily it can go wrong.
    - cmcaine 7y ago
harel 7y ago
I'm not a fan of companies like Uber or AirBnB who attempt a violent takeover of a market. However, as a consumer who needs to get from A to B, or stay at some random city, I find those services invaluable. The black cabs in London are expensive, never around when you need them, and until recently might have refused card payments (now they just seem unhappy about it). At the very least I was hoping Uber would make that industry wake up and join the modern world, but instead they chose to protest and block roads. With Uber, I always have a car available within minutes and the prices are reasonable. I just hope that the competition will take their place (and driver mass) if they do end up leaving.
- thathndude 7y ago
  Yep. I'm always amazed at how quickly people crap on Uber. In hindsight it's not a particularly revolutionary service. But does everyone remember how much the Taxi system sucked?
  - ghaff 7y ago
    London it's really not bad in my somewhat limited experience. (Usually take transit.) Yes it's more expensive than VC-subsidized rides but is better than taxis in most places.
    - larnmar 7y ago
      The black cabs in London were excellent but ridiculously expensive, which is why I’ve only caught one, like, once. Most people have to rely on minicabs, which were sketchy and unreliable. Uber was a huge boon to London.
      - dogma1138 7y ago
        Black cabs in the city are excellent, try hailing a black cab from anywhere not within 5-10 min walking from a major transportation hub like Pad, KingsX, Victoria, Euston and outside of the City's financial bubble.
TorKlingberg 7y ago
Last time Uber lost their license in London they got to keep operating while they appealed, so it didn't really have any effect.
- adwi 7y ago
  This time too, as per the sub headline of the article.
thinkindie 7y ago
have you ever wondered what makes services like Uber affordable? 1) underpaid drivers 2) VC money dropped into an otherwise unsustainable business I'm pretty sure Uber will raise prices the moment it kills the competition
- maxehmookau 7y ago
  They already have! Repeatedly. And lowered the cut paid to drivers.
- harel 7y ago
  That's why I differentiated my like and dislike. As a consumer, it's a service I use. I would use anyone who gave me that service and driver-mass. As a citizen of the net, I dislike them for their practices. But to be perfectly honest I rather call an uber than stand in the rain waiting for a black cab.
  - thinkindie 7y ago
    i understand that, but we should also understand that black cabs don't have softbank showering billions to subside uber rides and at the same time squeeze any possible costs out of their drivers.
    - harel 7y ago
      I totally get that. And you know what, If black cabs were nicer, not THAT expensive, and, available(!) I'd be happy to use them. But they are, like all unionised services, stuck in the 70s. I don't mind paying more. I do mind paying a LOT more for less. I am totally aware Uber is subsidised. But what makes uber uber, is their availability and ease of use.
  - tomatocracy 7y ago
    There are a couple of apps you can use to get a black cab. They help to avoid an annoying argument with the driver about cash vs card and you can wait inside until the cab arrives. Uber is still cheaper though (excepting surge pricing) and late at night both have patchy availability to be honest.
maxehmookau 7y ago
I'm always amazed at how fatalist about this sort of thing Londoners are. Like losing Uber will be a massive problem for a huge portion of the population. London has, by FAR, the best, cheapest and most efficient public transport in the entire UK. Uber is, yeah, cheaper than a black cab but also why is it cheaper? Worse working conditions, VC-subsidised, lower standards for vetting (as we've seen here!) It's not sustainable, and while there's obviously a market need for a cheaper app-based minicab service in London, Uber has proven repeatedly that it can't be trusted to do that.
- rovek 7y ago
  Cost is only one, relatively small, part of Uber's USP in London. The general shittiness of Black Cab drivers about taking you anywhere close to the edges of zone 1 is the biggest issue for me. Night tube only runs on Fri/Sat nights so I literally couldn't get home from a late week night without Uber. I wouldn't be surprised to see Uber riders blocking taxi ranks if Uber actually stopped operating, Black Cabs serve very few Londoners. Edit: Not "literally couldn't get home", I would just have to spend over an hour on a night bus.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    > I literally couldn't get home from a late week night without Uber. Don't be ridiculous. Private hire minicabs have existed since the 1960s.
    - _delirium 7y ago
      Nowadays you can book most of them via apps as well, either a company's own app (e.g. Addison Lee), or an aggregator like Kabbee.
      - rovek 7y ago
        I assume mentioning AL is a joke. Hadn't heard of Kabbee before though, doesn't look outrageously expensive for one of my common journeys.
gorgoiler 7y ago
After living for years in London, it’s hard to compare Ubers with black cabs. In the centre of town during the day black cabs are often ubiquitous, immediately available, and skilled at getting you the hell out of dodge. Something for which I’m happy to pay a premium. Anywhere else they can be capricious and scarce. After 11pm this is the case with in fact almost all black cabs anywhere in the city, when a very different type of driver — “borrowing” their license from a friend, card machine with a “sorry not working” post it taped to it, no chat — starts working the night shift. Usually these are more often likely to be rental drivers — during the day it’s owner drivers. The difference between the two classes of driver is, if you will, day and night. By contrast, the semi robotic Uber will always come, eventually. They’ll drive past you. Go the wrong way to pick you up. Stop on the wrong side of the road and wait for you to cross because they don’t have a tight turning circle. Go the wrong way on your journey. It’s a fact of life that while not all black cab drivers meet the highest professional standards, it’s much rarer to find a good Uber driver. SF and the Bay Area — I mention them as the root source of Uber’s app and product culture — certainly aren’t a cakewalk to drive around but it’s not a patch on London’s warrens. You can absolutely see that in the navigation skills of those using the big map apps to get around, and those who did The Knowledge. My subjective viewpoint isn’t some romantic notion based on the old ways or traditions either: everyone I know in London has pretty much the same experience.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  Takeaway: Maybe London should spend some effort becoming more naviagatable, instead of demanding professional drivers acquire a PhD level education (the Knowledge) to find their way.
  - urbanjunkie 7y ago
    My takeaway is that you're a moron.
  - 72deluxe 7y ago
    No offence, and I can see that you've been downvoted but how do you actually propose solving this "unnavigable" problem? By bulldozing existing property that is owned by multitudes of private landowners and building new roads or something else?? Honestly, what's your solution?
eggy 7y ago
If the concern over rider safety was that somebody could pose as an Uber driver and update a photo to make it work, why are black cabs not also deemed unsafe? Couldn't somebody borrow a friend's black cab, slap on a fake photo, and work the city? Maybe a stretch, and more work, but the same concern is there, no? I guess the black cabs have some powerful lobbyists in parliment? Yellow taxis in NYC were a monopoly, and medallions cost a fortune, and somehow it seems to have settled down a bit. Some latecomers to the medallion gig lost a lot in the transistion, but isn't that true of any new jump in technology or service?
- geocar 7y ago
  > why are black cabs not also deemed unsafe? A black cab driver has made a more significant investment in that license and will be much less likely to jeopardise it than some shmuck loaning out his uberx login -- especially when Uber not only doesn't do anything to stop it, but encourages it with more dark patterns.
  - echelon 7y ago
    > some shmuck loaning out his uberx login Literally what? Who does this? The app is a source of income, why would anyone share it? If anything, this ban makes me feel like London is run by a bunch of protectionist luddites.
    - crispyporkbites 7y ago
      If I want a night off and my mate is banned from uber/doesn’t have a license/doesn’t have his own car I can give him my login and car keys and ask for 50% of his take home.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect it may have something down to the difference in penalty for fraudulent behaviour. At the very least, if the only penalty is getting booted off the 'platform', getting added to Uber's platform is relatively cheap. Getting added to the black cab 'platform' requires getting licensed, which takes years and costs a lot of money. I'd imagine that fraudulently impersonating a black cabbie comes with significantly more penalty than getting 'booted off the platform' (license revocation).
kerng 7y ago
It seems that 43 out of 45000 drivers were able to drive illegally - it's bad, but not a horrific. Is there a time line available? Was this is in one year or overall since Uber's existance?
- PaulRobinson 7y ago
  43 unlicensed drivers managed to put 14,000 passengers at risk. London is not an easy place to drive, and many of those passengers would have been vulnerable: lone females, people who had too much to drink, etc. You might not consider it horrific, but by London standards it is completely unacceptable.
  - kerng 7y ago
    How would this compare to the old school taxi industry? Are there any numbers available that London publishes for comparison?
alkonaut 7y ago
You can't hail a regular taxi in London with your phone still? Why? How do you get them? Call? Or do you have to wave your arms? It's been 10 years since you could first do it in e.g. Stockholm with normal licensed taxis. Edit what I mean are regular taxis, not "black cabs", "minicabs" etc. I mean the iconic taxis. If you can't hail those, why not?
- twic 7y ago
  There are several apps for hailing black cabs. There are also services where you can phone to order a black cab that have existed since before that: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/book-a-taxi?intcmp=4226 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/book-a-taxi?intc... There isn't a central service that gives you access to all cabs, though. TfL used to have a service where you could text them, and they would text back two phone numbers for local minicab firms near you. That was really useful for getting home when you were in an unfamiliar part of town.
- cryptozeus 7y ago
  Can’t do this in usa as well.
- Bworkbwork 7y ago
  There's multiple apps that let people hail cabs: Gett, Taxiapp, etc.
  - alkonaut 7y ago
    Gett looks like it offers its own services though (i.e. its own cars?) I'm talking about hailing a regular London Taxi, not any car.
    - vertex-four 7y ago
      Gett gets you an actual taxi (regulated fare and all) in most of the UK, not certain about London.
- esotericn 7y ago
s0l1dsnak3123 7y ago
For those of us in London who are totally fed up with bullish companies like Uber who refuse to play by the rules and systematically tread on workers' rights, there's a worker's cooperative called TaxiApp (https://www.taxiapp.uk.com https://www.taxiapp.uk.com) which works on a non-profit basis and attempts to give a similar experience to that of Uber/Lyft/Hailo etc. Unlike the others, it's operated and owned by the workers - so you know that everyone is getting a fair deal.
- rmtech 7y ago
  Is it any good? Is it price competitive with Uber?
- rmtech 7y ago
  Just looked on Google play, it has a 3.5/5 star rating, multiple people saying the app doesn't work with international numbers and that they got cancelled at the last minute. Uber has a 4.0/5 star rating Lyft is 3.9/5
known 7y ago
Uber should focus on running Electric Cars
- peristeronic 7y ago
  Uber wouldn't do that, the drivers that use their own vehicles would.
naveen99 7y ago
uber is not getting kicked out just yet... they can continue operating while appealing... apparently have been operating without a license for a couple of years already using the appeals process.
phreack 7y ago
Uber was a good service for me until for some reason it appeared to have flagged me internally as a sort of driver beta tester, and from then on would only give me drivers with less than 2 weeks on the app. The experience was awful and dangerous so I abandoned it for good, but the good thing out of it all is that it sprung up competition and it was easy for me to jump to another app with better drivers (for me).
ben_jones 7y ago
Damning comment from /u/caldos4 on reddit: > Tons of breaches documented here [1], at least 14 000 trips with unlicensed (uninsured) drivers. Drivers with suspended licences were allowed to re-register with Uber, drivers were allowed to drive without insurance on their vehicle. I genuinely wonder if Uber could keep enough drivers if they stopped allowing uninsured or suspended drivers. [1]: https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/november/uber-london-limited-found-to-be-not-fit-and-proper-to-hold-a-private-hire-operator-licence https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/novemb...
neonate 7y ago
According to the article, the real decision will be made by the courts and the courts have already returned Uber's license in the past: "When TfL decided not to renew Uber's licence in 2017, the company addressed some of the issues raised by TfL back then and then a magistrate later granted Uber a new licence. On the face of it TfL is standing tough against perceived failings by Uber. But in effect it is letting the courts decide, at a later date, whether Uber should have a licence, or not."
happppy 7y ago
Uber banned one of my friend, he was driving with Uber with rating 4.91 and great reviews. Uber stupid AI (or that stupid developer whoever developed that stupid AI) thought user ratings and reviews are wrong and they are right, blocked him and he lost his income. I will never ever use Uber anymore.

256 points by reubensutton 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

"Only in the last few months it has been established that 14,000 Uber journeys have involved fraudulent drivers uploading their photos to other driver accounts - with passengers' safety potentially put at risk getting into cars with unlicensed and suspended drivers." This seems, from a technical perspective, an easy problem to solve with the resources of a public company. Is it the desperation of people who need the money so badly they will constantly cheat the system? Can you design for that?

xwolfi 7y ago
I wonder what we could do, let's think...maybe...a taxi medalion with a public exam ? :D They tried to solve the problem from the wrong angle, and it turns out that the high cost of taxis, while suboptimal for sure, might not be entirely for no reason.
- ReptileMan 7y ago
  Only if the exam is cheap (not easy) and number of medallions is unlimited. (I got your joke, don't worry)
  - bengillies 7y ago
    The prices are listed on this page[1]. Looks pretty expensive to me. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing/apply-for-a-taxi-driver-licence#on-this-page-3 https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing...
    - sacheendra 7y ago
      < 1000 pounds for what is basically license for a livelihood seems cheap.
    - Symbiote 7y ago
      That is for the "black cab" taxis, the ones you can hail by waving on the street. For a private hire vehicle (the kind you telephone or use an app to book), the price is under £700 (under £500 if the driver speaks English). That doesn't seem unreasonable. The GP comment was referring to the American system where the license are traded at very high costs (tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars). https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing/private-hire-driver-licence https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing...
    - michaelt 7y ago
      Those are the prices for becoming a black cab driver (allowed to respond to street hails and use taxi ranks) - to drive for Uber only requires a "private hire driver" license. The private hire license avoids the need for "the knowledge" and to have the traditional London black cab. There are still fees involved, of course - but becoming an Uber driver is much less demanding than becoming a black cab driver.
- imtringued 7y ago
  I think a better solution to a lot of problems would be to hand out licenses quickly and revoke them quickly. The value of posessing a license can often be questionable but the ability to stop rule breakers is incredibly useful.
onion2k 7y ago
This seems, from a technical perspective, an easy problem to solve with the resources of a public company. Is it the desperation of people who need the money so badly they will constantly cheat the system? Can you design for that? I don't think the motivation on the part of the drivers who do this is very important. They're intentionally deceiving Uber customers, and in some cases endangering them. That just has to stop, even if the driver is desperate. The point here is that it's Uber's responsibility to stop it happening, and Uber has apparently chosen not to (like you, it's not that hard). That will be very hard to justify, especially as Uber were running TV ads about how they do background checks on all their drivers here in the UK recently.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Other than constant facial recognition via camera pointed at the driver, how does anyone (not just Uber), guarantee that an approved driver doesn’t get out of the car and a non approved driver get in and start driving? Perhaps a selfie with the driver taken by the passengers during the drive would also suffice. In my opinion, Uber has done enough. They provide the passenger with the drivers name and photo. It’s up to the passenger to verify, but Uber should make violations easy to report.
  - JazCE 7y ago
    using the fingerprint reader on a phone to accept any job?
    - darkwater 7y ago
      Fingerprint on a phone (either iOS or Android) only authenticates the local phone user, it doesn't really expose any mean of unique identification to the app. So, basically even if you enforce fingerprinting to use the app, it would just authenticate/match whatever fingerprint was registered in the underlying OS.
  - us0r 7y ago
    >It’s up to the passenger to verify, but Uber should make violations easy to report. They are. Click a trip, scroll down, click "my driver was unprofessional", click "my driver didnt match the profile in my app". The problem is most people dont report stuff to uber. I hear stories all the time from people and everytime I ask if they reported the driver they say no.
JazCE 7y ago
Surely a decent solution would be for the uber driver having to use their fingerprint to initialise the app before every journey (as long as they're not using a galaxy s10)
PJDK 7y ago
How do you stop one person signing up, doing the whole verification process correctly and then someone else using the app/driving the car? The only safeguard that springs to mind is providing a photo of the driver to the user, but that's already implemented. You could also do spot checks (no idea if they do or not), but that's not going to eliminate the problem just reduce it.
- us0r 7y ago
  They have had this since 2016[0]. The problem is you have uber logic behind it. The only time it asks me to verify is when I'm on the highway and turn the app off and back on. I guess they think I'm tossing the phone to the car next to me while going 65? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2016/9/23/13030682/uber-driver-selfie-facial-scan-fraud-security https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2...
ptah 7y ago
if you can't design for that, then your business is failing a fundamental requirement
pjc50 7y ago
> Is it the desperation of people who need the money so badly they will constantly cheat the system? Can you design for that? This is the Internet. If you don't design for people cheating you, they will wreck your system as soon as it becomes popular enough to be visible.
- Jommi 7y ago
  Which is the exact problem. Ubers smaller competitors have no incentive for heavy regulatory features because they can get away with it. That in turn pushes Uber to not implement them either, until the very last moment.
lysp 7y ago
That happens with taxis too in Australia. Unauthorised drivers who don't match their picture ID driving.

dwardu 7y ago

Sign up to Bolt. It has just moved into London a few months ago. https://invite.bolt.eu/HPEEW https://invite.bolt.eu/HPEEW

grenoire 7y ago
Are you literally shilling your referral link here..?
- dwardu 7y ago
  Helping others find an alternative to uber in these dark times

samwillis 7y ago

The article doesn't really explain... their current temporary license (they have been on a temp one since last year) expires at 11.59 tonight, TFL won't give them a new permanent one. This will be in the courts today and they will probably be granted another temporary one before the day is out.

lamps12 7y ago
What's the maximum time period one can operate with the temp?
- user5994461 7y ago
  They've had no license for two years, they should be able to go for another two years for sure without a hitch. I bet they could go on like this forever.
pgl 7y ago
From the TfL press release: > Legislation means that Uber now has 21 days to appeal, during which it can continue to operate pending any appeal and throughout any potential appeals process. Uber may seek to implement changes to demonstrate to a magistrate that it is fit and proper by the time of the appeal.
- Jommi 7y ago
  Exactly, so 21 days + how long the appeal process and outcome takes time. And the end result may as well be them being given a new temp. license.
goatinaboat 7y ago
Indeed, this action is meaningless until Uber execs are getting hauled off for contempt of court. It’s barely even a slap on the wrist.

JazCE 7y ago

It's from 2017, but this is still relevant: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-not-app/ https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-...

gerardnll 7y ago

I know this opinion is not popular but I'm so happy everytime I see bad news for Uber and all these companies that only exist thanks to basically exploiting THEIR workers. Private transporting is not sustainable and it is not something that has to be affordable for everyone, even less by lowering workers wages or playing with the tariffs by demand. Taxi regulations gives us passengers safety and fair prices. There are taxi apps that work exactly like Uber's like 'Free-now' where you can see your trip, its aproximate cost, the driver's rating... We have to promote governments that support affordable and good quality public transport, even though I love driving alone in my car. I hope Deliveroo, Glovo and other companies are also punished for their labour rights abuses. Make sure your delivery guy is payed fairly or either go to the restaurant yourself. So many years of labour rights fights being attacked by these startups that do not invent anything but base their business model on lower wages.

djohnston 7y ago
I can agree with you on worker treatment but I take issue with "So many years of labour rights fights being attacked by these startups that do not invent anything but base their business model on lower wages." The only reason ANY of the taxi companies have improved service with new apps and lower prices is because of the competition introduced by ride sharing companies.
- gerardnll 7y ago
  Not having an app on your smartphone does not outweight the bad sides to me. In Spain tho, mytaxi came before Uber.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Let's not conflate Uber with ride sharing/app-taxi in general. Uber wasn't the first company of its type, it's only the one that became most known. It also wasn't like all the other ride share companies, it was well-known for utter disregard for laws and deeply sociopathic management. And it's not like this behavior was necessary to bring in all the innovation; disruption of the taxi space by private companies was happening for a while now. Uber only used its antisocial behavior to gain market dominance, and as a side effect it legitimized such dishonorable practices in the startup scene. Personally, I like and use this "new breed" of app-based taxi services (except Uber). I just want to see Uber finally die. It should have died years ago.

pgl 7y ago

Here is the announcement from Transport for London: * https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/november/uber-london-limited-found-to-be-not-fit-and-proper-to-hold-a-private-hire-operator-licence https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/novemb...

n_ary 7y ago

Interesting though, same incident, same news from 2017: hxxps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-41358640 I'd assume, this will be resolved like the last time, just a minor hitch.

Jommi 7y ago
Yep, they will challenge it in court, keep running while it happens and then fix the problems and continue their license. At worst (for Uber) it's just some free organic traffic for their competitors.

Traster 7y ago

It's pretty amazing how consistently Uber fails to abide by even the most basic regulations. How many times does a billion dollar company get a second chance? Every time this happens people talk about how the Mayor will get in trouble for this, but let's face it, ride hailing apps are 10 a penny. Lyft, Taxify, MyTaxi? No one in London is going to miss Uber.

thesimon 7y ago
> Taxify Bolt > MyTaxi FREE NOW :)
- m_t 7y ago
  This is an interesting thing. Free Now for instance, previously MyTaxi, previously Hailo. How many time will this thing get rebranded? How many times will my data be shared with new entities?
  - flurdy 7y ago
    I deleted the app. I presumed Hailo/MyTaxi had been taken over. FreeNow just sounds like a scam. Saw no reason to open up the app to find out.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      It's legit. They just got bought or partnered or something with BMW, and the business is intended to consolidate with bike sharing and some other stuffs in Europe. I ride with FreeNow in my city, just as I did with MyTaxi before. Same drivers, same app, same prices, just different colors (and slightly less favorable terms of employment, from what I've heard from the drivers during the time of transition).
    - ablation 7y ago
      FreeNow is as good as it's ever been. Better, in fact. It's the only app I use for this kind of thing as it uses legit, local taxis.
7y ago

gorgoiler 7y ago

Deliveroo should suffer a reckoning too, if there’s any sense in the world. Have you ever seen a bunch of Deliveroo riders clogging up the public space outside a restaurant or other public space? Why should one business get to exploit pavements for profit, without regulation. Private companies shouldn’t be able to co-opt public space without scrutiny or permission. Or maybe I’m too ethical and not being enough of a hustler, and I should move my team into the desk space at the local library?

miracle2k 7y ago
That seems like a fairly narrow concern to me, but... Maybe the restaurant should pay for the use of that public space of they want to offer delivery?
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  That is one solution, and one that would effectively kill off Deliveroo and its breed.
- gorgoiler 7y ago
  You’re right, I suppose it is a narrow concern and the solution you highlight would be an appropriate one for that particular problem. It feels though like the delivery driver loitering problem is a red flag for a much larger problem of corporate appropriation being acceptable, without being challenged by those we entrust to look after our public spaces and roads. It’s why a solution like “delivery drivers shouldn’t loiter in public spaces” is a poor solution, and why “private business should not be conducted in public without a license” might be a better and more general message.
emiliobumachar 7y ago
I've never seen them, they don't operate in my area. That said, your complaint was unclear. Did they go beyond simple parking into more egregious use of public space, like parking on the sidewalk or blocking traffic? Or is it about public parking? Would it be okay if they were customers instead of delivery workers? How much of a difference does it make that a corporation is involved?

browsermostly 7y ago

TFL should actually provide a reliable service if they want to start pointing fingers. They talk about security and safety but it's not safe to have to wait around hoping for the off chance a scammy black cab will spot you after your TFL train gets cancelled for whatever reason.

Brakenshire 7y ago
It sounds like you've never been to London? Who says 'TFL train'?
- browsermostly 7y ago
  I live in London mate, I was making a distinction between a train that is operated by TFL and a train that is not. I also didn't call it a tube because I was referring more to the overground.
  - Brakenshire 7y ago
    Ah, fair enough, you’re making the distinction for others to understand. The Overground has always worked well for me, it’s unreliable for you?
- loriverkutya 7y ago
  Anybody who is aware, that TFL operates trains too :)
- tialaramex 7y ago
  TFL Rail is the name for TFL's temporary services either side of what will be Crossrail. Once Crossrail opens to the public it will all become Crossrail / The Elizabeth Line even those services that don't actually go under London. So TFL do operate trains, even ignoring London Overground which is in effect also TFL.

Normal_gaussian 7y ago

I'd be very happy to see uber kicked out of London long enough for a competitor to take hold. I simply do not trust the company. I accept that the market pressure uber has brought has improved transportation. I do not accept that uber and its repeated atrocious behaviors required for this. Its a shame that uber can so easily bypass tfl with appeals and minor changes.

nottorp 7y ago
If uber gets kicked out, the rest of its modern competitors will follow (Uber is big enough to litigate succesfully, but not all are), and you'll be back to the black cabs. 90% of the time, uber is being kicked not because of any concern for safety, but because of traditional taxi company lobbying. Source: personal experience in 2 cities.
- Jommi 7y ago
  This is actually completely wrong. TFL in the summer granted several licenses for Uber competitors which have now been growing fast inside the city. It's definitely not a take against ridehailing, just against Uber.

oliwarner 7y ago

I don't usually use Uber —we live in a place where it just doesn't exist— but I've been exposed to it a couple of times this last weekend. It's private hire but worse. A family member booked. A driver committed. The wait got shorter. Then it got longer. And longer. And then our trip was cancelled without reason. Another was booked. Same gig. We had no opportunity to 1-star those drivers for being dicks. The third arrived but we didn't get the fabled offer of foot massages, nor were we plied with snacks or drinks. It was just a cab ride with the awkward "You've been great passengers, I'll rate you five stars!" exchange at the end. "Err, thanks mate?" The return trip was pretty similar. It's 1am. Want to go home. One dropped. It's getting really cold now. Second arrives. Again, an entirely standard private hire experience with the added convenience of being asked to rate at the other end. But this lack of recompense for crappy initial service isn't good. If a real private hire did that, you'd use another company and would never use that one again. You'd tell friends and family not to use it. You'd be able to complain to the council about the company. With Uber, you just huddle up and hope the next is better. This is by far one of the more benign complaints you hear about (versus deliberately slow routes to push the top end of the range, or surge pricing) but it absolutely undermines the purported convenience factor. Being able to talk to a manned rank in actual contact with their drivers is so much better in practice.

98Windows 7y ago
Did you use Uber pool?
leoedin 7y ago
It sounds like you had a bad experience. Almost everyone I know uses Uber regularly and almost every experience is positive. If it's 3am sometimes it takes longer, if you just got out of a bar and there's 50 other people next to you trying to get an uber you might have to walk a bit, if you're in a remote place sometimes they cancel. It's annoying. But mostly I can have a taxi outside my house in 3 minutes. I know exactly when they'll get there and there's no cash needed. It's a hugely better process than the old phone-a-number and hope minicabs and taxi services. That would take 15 minutes minimum, often much longer, and you had no idea when it would arrive.

matthewfelgate 7y ago

We have a solution for which companies should operate: it's called the free market.

yaa_minu 7y ago
The fact that you're being downvoted shows how much of a socialist hell-hole HN has become. No one is forcing people to drive for uber and no one is forcing the rider to use uber. In my city, Accra, Taxis were so expensive until uber came to the market and forced down the price. The only system that puts the consumer (read: common man) first is the free market (if and only if politicians would allow it to work).
- lidHanteyk 7y ago
  Let's see how much of a capitalist you are. Why do you believe in the Efficient Market Hypothesis? What evidence do you have in its favor? I humbly suggest to you that, if P!=NP, then the Efficient Market Hypothesis (any flavor!) cannot be true, as otherwise we could program markets to solve NP-complete problems in P time. Edit: Remember, downvote means "you are right and I must hide your argument lest it show others my folly". That's how the free marketplace of comments works.
  - yaa_minu 7y ago
    No, let's look at it from a more philosophically objective point of view. Why do you think that the millions of Londoners who voluntarily chose Uber over traditional taxi services should be denied the freedom to choose what taxi services to use?
    - Jommi 7y ago
      If tfl sees Uber not operating by the same standards as others do, then of course they should be punished. Londoners are ofcourse free to use any other other app based ridehailing companies that so comply with tfls regulations.
    - 7y ago

Cougher 7y ago

My favorite cab experiences have been in London, but I'm not gonna lie: my favoritest favorite experience was a cabbie in Tijuana forty years ago who pulled out a bottle of tequila, took a long swig from it and offered the bottle to my mother, father, aunt, and uncle, while driving like he was in a Dukes of Hazard screen test.

zxcvbn4038 7y ago

I tried to use Uber three times in my life, including once in London, and every time I get all the way to try the point where it is looking for nearby cars then it stops and says my phone number is invalid. Contacted their support, sent them a screen shot of my iPhone screen showing my number, they said it was fixed. A few months later I tried to book a car again and exact same thing happened. So I don’t have a lot of sympathy when they fall on hard times. I eventually gave up on Uber and tried Lyft, works painlessly and reliably, a little extra comfort when I’m in a unfamiliar city.

jki275 7y ago
Same exact problem for me. I use Lyft also as a result.

tompccs 7y ago

A few things going on here. This is a continuation of an ongoing battle between Tfl and Uber. Last year Tfl threatened to revoke Ubers' license unless it complied with regulations involving basic safety checks and coorporated with British Transport Police over crimes committed by drivers. Well, one year on and Uber has not been able to get its house in order. This move will doubtless be extremely unpopular with Londoners, many of whom will suspect that the black cab unions are behind it. Uber called Tfl's bluff last year knowing there would be a public backlash if their services were withdrawn. It will be interesting to see how it plays out this time. Regardless of your opinion of Uber and their labour practices, they offer an incredibly valuable service to millions of people. They have massively increased the availability of minicabs, made booking them incredibly easy and safe (not to mentioned with far better coverage than was previously possible) and affordable to more people. Not only that, thousands of people now make a living driving Ubers whom before wouldn't have been able to get a job as a minicab driver at all, as the firms would artificially limit numbers to keep fares high. Uber and Tfl are both playing a risky game here.

Jommi 7y ago
I think you're overvaluing Uber's footing in the current London market. During the summer several competitors have been granted licenses, and they are reporting healthy and fast growth. Those millions of people can just switch over to one of the other apps and get a nearly identical (and usually cheaper) service. Same with the drivers, the competitors are offering a hugely better deal than Uber is.
- tompccs 7y ago
  Problem is if drivers are spread more thinly between them. But just the news today should have prompted drivers to sign up to other apps.

traceroute66 7y ago

The problem with Black Cabs in London is that the drivers go around like they are god's gift to Earth. Sure "The Knowledge" is an impressive feat of learning, but more often than not the drivers don't make use of it because the best route is not the most profitable one for the driver. I have lost count of the number of times I have been subjected to the "tourist tax" where the driver heads straight for the major artery roads with their traffic jams (e.g. Kings Road, Strand, Embankment etc.) so you get to sit there watching the meter clock up whilst you move nowhere. Or the number of times the quickest and least-traffic route is South of the river but the driver sticks religiously to the Northen route. Or the number of times the driver fumbles slowly getting the change, in the expectation that you say "oh forget it, keep the change" ... even if that change is £4 or more ! Or when I've been driving around London only for the Black Cab in front of me to stop on a double-red line to drop off a passenger. Or make a U-Turn in the middle of a busy street. Don't get me wrong. I'm not fond of Uber either. Their standard of driving is pretty poor, and I hate the way they sit at the Heathrow DROP-OFF area waiting for their next job. What I am saying is that the London cabbies are in dire need of some stiff competition. Yes I would rather that competition come from someone of better quality than Uber.

Symbiote 7y ago
Uber is an alternative to Addison Lee (the largest), or the hundreds of local minicab agencies. The black cabs have different rules and regulations.
detritus 7y ago
Uber competes against local cab firms more than it does 'Black Cabs', which tend to be significantly more expensive. Since Uber came to prominence, two local cab firms that I used to rely on a lot have ceased trading, leaving me with only app-based entities such as Uber. Uber has its advantages, but as I've moaned about here on HN in the past, its drivers tend to slavishly follow whatever automatatically-derived route it is that Uber spoon feeds them, often meaning they set off in the wrong direction (based upon which side of the road they pick up from) or use routes that anyone who knows the local area (or has The Knowledge) would do their utmost to avoid.
7y ago

user5994461 7y ago

>>> Uber initially lost its licence in 2017 but was granted two extensions, the most recent of which expired on Sunday. The firm will appeal and can continue to operate during that process. What a time to be alive. Don't have and don't need a license.

jonplackett 7y ago

London resident here. I would like to see Uber compared to the existing mini cab companies and black cabs rather than some perfect vision of a taxi company. Uber took off here easily because existing minicabs were all really really crap. Not just expensive but often rude or incompetent drivers. I would guess a lot of them were unregistered and uninsured and their cars barely road legal. Black cabs are Better but very expensive and still rip off tourists all the tine by charging without the meter. Even with the meter it was impossible to get any idea how much a trip would cost before you took it. And you needed cash. Example: One time I got a minicab, it took the guy over half an hour to arrive, then he had to actually find me which took even longer. Then I realised the back seats of the car were full of vomit and he made me ride up front with the windows wide open - it was winter and cold. Then he didn’t know where he was going and got lost and then he charged me £30 for what would have cost £10 on Uber. Uber, by comparison is great.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kkwak 7y ago

got an email from uber saying they'll fight. not sure, but seems like a big win for kapten now.

Masterkraft 7y ago
Do not forget Bolt (a.k.a Taxify)

reubeniv 7y ago

hopefully it gets resolved, Uber is much more convenient than traditional taxis, I love that you pay via the app and know the route you're taking, however the issue around unauthorised drivers using regular drivers' profiles is worrying

readhn 7y ago

On one hand i am glad that a transnational company is getting stopped like that, especially when breaking the rules. they are basically a giant money hoover that comes in and sucks the money offshore with offshore interests as #1 priority. on the other hand, often it often takes an outsider to disrupt a well established and corrupt market in order to move it forward.

aedron 7y ago
I feel the same way. I can hardly decide whether I dislike Uber or the taxi industry more.
- pluma 7y ago
  Well, Uber is more exploitative for the drivers and less safe for the riders, so the choice seems clear. On the other hand Uber has a flashy logo and an app and is sometimes cheaper.
  - NikolaNovak 7y ago
    It may be specific to markets. In Canada's national capital region (Ottawa/Gatineau), where I travel to frequently, I've used Uber extensively even though it's more expensive and less convenient (taxi is right in front of hotel, Uber I have to call and wait for), simply because all cars were in good shape and all drivers were polite and reasonable. For some reason in that region, majority of taxi drivers: a) Have cars that are falling apart. Not just significant rust on the car, but frequently wonky suspension, brakes, bearings, etc. b) They strongly believe they are rally drivers, and traffic lights, pedestrians, let alone bicycles, are their mortal enemies. Further, all Uber drivers were happy to be Uber drivers, and 70%+ of Taxi drivers were profoundly, existentially unhappy to be Taxi drivers, and would spend entirety of their ride letting me know why. ---- Now, in principle, just from theory and articles, I'd agree that Uber feels it is / should be more exploitative of drivers and less safe for riders. I personally just haven't found it that way in practice... :-/
    - 7y ago

gerbilly 7y ago

The only thing these disruptive companies (Uber, Deliveroo) are providing is unregulated access to cheap labour in first world countries. I don't know why on earth that even technical people praise them so much. The technical innovations to delivering this cheap labour are just an afterthought.

FpUser 7y ago

Taxi regulations gives us passengers safety and fair prices. Do not know about London. In my location all the money go to paying license fees and to the actual owners of Cabs (any entity with the money but the taxi driver). And how exactly exploiting taxi drivers makes us safer I have no idea. Failure to do criminal background check is also pathetic lame excuse. I really doubt that said former criminal got into taxi driving job and paid all those fees in order to rob/assault passengers.

dominotw 7y ago

>At least 14,000 trips involved drivers who weren’t who the riders thought they were, any idea what the source of this info is? And not sure what the timeframe here is. Is it 14000 since Uber started operating in london?

stopads 7y ago
Where I live people give their phones and unlock code to others to drive under their name. They usually do this for drivers who can't pass a background check or even don't have a driver's license, but still need money. The legit driver almost always gets a cut for this, free money on your vacation days or while you're working other, better jobs.
morrbo 7y ago
IIRC you can complain (either on uber or uber eats) that the driver didn't look like their photo. It might be from that. Not sure how else they can get the info
- dominotw 7y ago
  source seems to be TFL not uber and even then that would just be number of possible instances not actual instances reported in the article.
- cal97g 7y ago
  I've had uber eats deliveries by a women when the user account was male. Not ideal.
stuaxo 7y ago
Not sure, but as a passenger in London it's happened to a few times
zonethundery 7y ago
Complaints are a possible source, but they also may have identified single accounts with multiple drivers (by reviewing driver profile pic uploads) and then counted all the trips for each.

FpUser 7y ago

Private transporting is not sustainable and it is not something that has to be affordable for everyone I am curious how you get to decide on what should be affordable? And what if somebody disagrees?

omarhaneef 7y ago

Something about this doesn't make sense to me. I take it for granted that the staff at Uber would do anything not to lose the license. I am sure that, for 17 months, they've been investing heavily in security systems, ID verification etc. They must have followed up on every complaint. If I were them, I would have just manually followed everything that the Cabs do till I had a technology in place. It also seems that the city is making some effort to give them space to improve: 15 months, then 2 months. So then why didn't the gap close in time? Is this because the technology platform was so massive that turning it just took more time? Or is there something about the details that I can't see? Edit: I start with the assumption that both Uber and the City are trying to do their best, and don't ascribe nefarious intent to anyone.

itamarst 7y ago
You would think Uber Autonomous Vehicles group would do everything they can not to hit pedestrians. Yet according to the NTSB, previous to killing a pedestrian in Arizona Uber had a weak safety culture (https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2019-HWY18MH010-BMG-presentation4.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2019-HWY18MH010-B...). Even worse, "Pedestrian outside crosswalk not assigned goal of crossing street", "Tracking history not considered when classification changes", "Predicted path depended on object’s goal". Basically they configured it to run over people who crossed outside a sidewalk. I would not assume Uber are doing their best. Or, insofar as they define "best", it's "what can we do as quickly as possible with no consideration to what is legal".
- kd5bjo 7y ago
  > "Pedestrian outside crosswalk not assigned goal of crossing street", "Tracking history not considered when classification changes", "Predicted path depended on object’s goal" To be fair, I could see myself implementing these sort of heuristics to get a working prototype. On the other hand, I deliberately avoid working on life-critical software because of how easily it can go wrong.
  - cmcaine 7y ago

harel 7y ago

I'm not a fan of companies like Uber or AirBnB who attempt a violent takeover of a market. However, as a consumer who needs to get from A to B, or stay at some random city, I find those services invaluable. The black cabs in London are expensive, never around when you need them, and until recently might have refused card payments (now they just seem unhappy about it). At the very least I was hoping Uber would make that industry wake up and join the modern world, but instead they chose to protest and block roads. With Uber, I always have a car available within minutes and the prices are reasonable. I just hope that the competition will take their place (and driver mass) if they do end up leaving.

thathndude 7y ago
Yep. I'm always amazed at how quickly people crap on Uber. In hindsight it's not a particularly revolutionary service. But does everyone remember how much the Taxi system sucked?
- ghaff 7y ago
  London it's really not bad in my somewhat limited experience. (Usually take transit.) Yes it's more expensive than VC-subsidized rides but is better than taxis in most places.
  - larnmar 7y ago
    The black cabs in London were excellent but ridiculously expensive, which is why I’ve only caught one, like, once. Most people have to rely on minicabs, which were sketchy and unreliable. Uber was a huge boon to London.
    - dogma1138 7y ago
      Black cabs in the city are excellent, try hailing a black cab from anywhere not within 5-10 min walking from a major transportation hub like Pad, KingsX, Victoria, Euston and outside of the City's financial bubble.

TorKlingberg 7y ago

Last time Uber lost their license in London they got to keep operating while they appealed, so it didn't really have any effect.

adwi 7y ago
This time too, as per the sub headline of the article.

thinkindie 7y ago

have you ever wondered what makes services like Uber affordable? 1) underpaid drivers 2) VC money dropped into an otherwise unsustainable business I'm pretty sure Uber will raise prices the moment it kills the competition

maxehmookau 7y ago
They already have! Repeatedly. And lowered the cut paid to drivers.
harel 7y ago
That's why I differentiated my like and dislike. As a consumer, it's a service I use. I would use anyone who gave me that service and driver-mass. As a citizen of the net, I dislike them for their practices. But to be perfectly honest I rather call an uber than stand in the rain waiting for a black cab.
- thinkindie 7y ago
  i understand that, but we should also understand that black cabs don't have softbank showering billions to subside uber rides and at the same time squeeze any possible costs out of their drivers.
  - harel 7y ago
    I totally get that. And you know what, If black cabs were nicer, not THAT expensive, and, available(!) I'd be happy to use them. But they are, like all unionised services, stuck in the 70s. I don't mind paying more. I do mind paying a LOT more for less. I am totally aware Uber is subsidised. But what makes uber uber, is their availability and ease of use.
- tomatocracy 7y ago
  There are a couple of apps you can use to get a black cab. They help to avoid an annoying argument with the driver about cash vs card and you can wait inside until the cab arrives. Uber is still cheaper though (excepting surge pricing) and late at night both have patchy availability to be honest.

maxehmookau 7y ago

I'm always amazed at how fatalist about this sort of thing Londoners are. Like losing Uber will be a massive problem for a huge portion of the population. London has, by FAR, the best, cheapest and most efficient public transport in the entire UK. Uber is, yeah, cheaper than a black cab but also why is it cheaper? Worse working conditions, VC-subsidised, lower standards for vetting (as we've seen here!) It's not sustainable, and while there's obviously a market need for a cheaper app-based minicab service in London, Uber has proven repeatedly that it can't be trusted to do that.

rovek 7y ago
Cost is only one, relatively small, part of Uber's USP in London. The general shittiness of Black Cab drivers about taking you anywhere close to the edges of zone 1 is the biggest issue for me. Night tube only runs on Fri/Sat nights so I literally couldn't get home from a late week night without Uber. I wouldn't be surprised to see Uber riders blocking taxi ranks if Uber actually stopped operating, Black Cabs serve very few Londoners. Edit: Not "literally couldn't get home", I would just have to spend over an hour on a night bus.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  > I literally couldn't get home from a late week night without Uber. Don't be ridiculous. Private hire minicabs have existed since the 1960s.
  - _delirium 7y ago
    Nowadays you can book most of them via apps as well, either a company's own app (e.g. Addison Lee), or an aggregator like Kabbee.
    - rovek 7y ago
      I assume mentioning AL is a joke. Hadn't heard of Kabbee before though, doesn't look outrageously expensive for one of my common journeys.

gorgoiler 7y ago

After living for years in London, it’s hard to compare Ubers with black cabs. In the centre of town during the day black cabs are often ubiquitous, immediately available, and skilled at getting you the hell out of dodge. Something for which I’m happy to pay a premium. Anywhere else they can be capricious and scarce. After 11pm this is the case with in fact almost all black cabs anywhere in the city, when a very different type of driver — “borrowing” their license from a friend, card machine with a “sorry not working” post it taped to it, no chat — starts working the night shift. Usually these are more often likely to be rental drivers — during the day it’s owner drivers. The difference between the two classes of driver is, if you will, day and night. By contrast, the semi robotic Uber will always come, eventually. They’ll drive past you. Go the wrong way to pick you up. Stop on the wrong side of the road and wait for you to cross because they don’t have a tight turning circle. Go the wrong way on your journey. It’s a fact of life that while not all black cab drivers meet the highest professional standards, it’s much rarer to find a good Uber driver. SF and the Bay Area — I mention them as the root source of Uber’s app and product culture — certainly aren’t a cakewalk to drive around but it’s not a patch on London’s warrens. You can absolutely see that in the navigation skills of those using the big map apps to get around, and those who did The Knowledge. My subjective viewpoint isn’t some romantic notion based on the old ways or traditions either: everyone I know in London has pretty much the same experience.

BurningFrog 7y ago
Takeaway: Maybe London should spend some effort becoming more naviagatable, instead of demanding professional drivers acquire a PhD level education (the Knowledge) to find their way.
- urbanjunkie 7y ago
  My takeaway is that you're a moron.
- 72deluxe 7y ago
  No offence, and I can see that you've been downvoted but how do you actually propose solving this "unnavigable" problem? By bulldozing existing property that is owned by multitudes of private landowners and building new roads or something else?? Honestly, what's your solution?

eggy 7y ago

If the concern over rider safety was that somebody could pose as an Uber driver and update a photo to make it work, why are black cabs not also deemed unsafe? Couldn't somebody borrow a friend's black cab, slap on a fake photo, and work the city? Maybe a stretch, and more work, but the same concern is there, no? I guess the black cabs have some powerful lobbyists in parliment? Yellow taxis in NYC were a monopoly, and medallions cost a fortune, and somehow it seems to have settled down a bit. Some latecomers to the medallion gig lost a lot in the transistion, but isn't that true of any new jump in technology or service?

geocar 7y ago
> why are black cabs not also deemed unsafe? A black cab driver has made a more significant investment in that license and will be much less likely to jeopardise it than some shmuck loaning out his uberx login -- especially when Uber not only doesn't do anything to stop it, but encourages it with more dark patterns.
- echelon 7y ago
  > some shmuck loaning out his uberx login Literally what? Who does this? The app is a source of income, why would anyone share it? If anything, this ban makes me feel like London is run by a bunch of protectionist luddites.
  - crispyporkbites 7y ago
    If I want a night off and my mate is banned from uber/doesn’t have a license/doesn’t have his own car I can give him my login and car keys and ask for 50% of his take home.
oarsinsync 7y ago
I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect it may have something down to the difference in penalty for fraudulent behaviour. At the very least, if the only penalty is getting booted off the 'platform', getting added to Uber's platform is relatively cheap. Getting added to the black cab 'platform' requires getting licensed, which takes years and costs a lot of money. I'd imagine that fraudulently impersonating a black cabbie comes with significantly more penalty than getting 'booted off the platform' (license revocation).

kerng 7y ago

It seems that 43 out of 45000 drivers were able to drive illegally - it's bad, but not a horrific. Is there a time line available? Was this is in one year or overall since Uber's existance?

PaulRobinson 7y ago
43 unlicensed drivers managed to put 14,000 passengers at risk. London is not an easy place to drive, and many of those passengers would have been vulnerable: lone females, people who had too much to drink, etc. You might not consider it horrific, but by London standards it is completely unacceptable.
- kerng 7y ago
  How would this compare to the old school taxi industry? Are there any numbers available that London publishes for comparison?

alkonaut 7y ago

You can't hail a regular taxi in London with your phone still? Why? How do you get them? Call? Or do you have to wave your arms? It's been 10 years since you could first do it in e.g. Stockholm with normal licensed taxis. Edit what I mean are regular taxis, not "black cabs", "minicabs" etc. I mean the iconic taxis. If you can't hail those, why not?

twic 7y ago
There are several apps for hailing black cabs. There are also services where you can phone to order a black cab that have existed since before that: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/book-a-taxi?intcmp=4226 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/book-a-taxi?intc... There isn't a central service that gives you access to all cabs, though. TfL used to have a service where you could text them, and they would text back two phone numbers for local minicab firms near you. That was really useful for getting home when you were in an unfamiliar part of town.
cryptozeus 7y ago
Can’t do this in usa as well.
Bworkbwork 7y ago
There's multiple apps that let people hail cabs: Gett, Taxiapp, etc.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  Gett looks like it offers its own services though (i.e. its own cars?) I'm talking about hailing a regular London Taxi, not any car.
  - vertex-four 7y ago
    Gett gets you an actual taxi (regulated fare and all) in most of the UK, not certain about London.
esotericn 7y ago

s0l1dsnak3123 7y ago

For those of us in London who are totally fed up with bullish companies like Uber who refuse to play by the rules and systematically tread on workers' rights, there's a worker's cooperative called TaxiApp (https://www.taxiapp.uk.com https://www.taxiapp.uk.com) which works on a non-profit basis and attempts to give a similar experience to that of Uber/Lyft/Hailo etc. Unlike the others, it's operated and owned by the workers - so you know that everyone is getting a fair deal.

rmtech 7y ago
Is it any good? Is it price competitive with Uber?
rmtech 7y ago
Just looked on Google play, it has a 3.5/5 star rating, multiple people saying the app doesn't work with international numbers and that they got cancelled at the last minute. Uber has a 4.0/5 star rating Lyft is 3.9/5

known 7y ago

Uber should focus on running Electric Cars

peristeronic 7y ago
Uber wouldn't do that, the drivers that use their own vehicles would.

naveen99 7y ago

uber is not getting kicked out just yet... they can continue operating while appealing... apparently have been operating without a license for a couple of years already using the appeals process.

phreack 7y ago

Uber was a good service for me until for some reason it appeared to have flagged me internally as a sort of driver beta tester, and from then on would only give me drivers with less than 2 weeks on the app. The experience was awful and dangerous so I abandoned it for good, but the good thing out of it all is that it sprung up competition and it was easy for me to jump to another app with better drivers (for me).

ben_jones 7y ago

Damning comment from /u/caldos4 on reddit: > Tons of breaches documented here [1], at least 14 000 trips with unlicensed (uninsured) drivers. Drivers with suspended licences were allowed to re-register with Uber, drivers were allowed to drive without insurance on their vehicle. I genuinely wonder if Uber could keep enough drivers if they stopped allowing uninsured or suspended drivers. [1]: https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/november/uber-london-limited-found-to-be-not-fit-and-proper-to-hold-a-private-hire-operator-licence https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/novemb...

neonate 7y ago

According to the article, the real decision will be made by the courts and the courts have already returned Uber's license in the past: "When TfL decided not to renew Uber's licence in 2017, the company addressed some of the issues raised by TfL back then and then a magistrate later granted Uber a new licence. On the face of it TfL is standing tough against perceived failings by Uber. But in effect it is letting the courts decide, at a later date, whether Uber should have a licence, or not."

happppy 7y ago

Uber banned one of my friend, he was driving with Uber with rating 4.91 and great reviews. Uber stupid AI (or that stupid developer whoever developed that stupid AI) thought user ratings and reviews are wrong and they are right, blocked him and he lost his income. I will never ever use Uber anymore.