13 ms·

Cook: ‘China Hasn’t Pressured Us’

215 points by pcr910303 7y ago

Jonnax 7y ago
Isn't this what they call the Chilling Effect?
- OzzyB 7y ago
  Yes, and it's accompanied by the Gas Lighting effect, as demonstrated here.
  - yyyk 7y ago
    Nah, that's due to the Apple Effect. Apple has for a long time performed and perfected the "Gas Lighting effect", including issues unrelated to China. "You're holding it wrong", "Our butterfly keyboards are perfectly fine", "The iOS update does not slow down our older models"... Other companies screw up, cheat and sometimes even lie, but Apple and a section of its fanboys repeatedly gaslight - even on small faults.
    - OzzyB 7y ago
      > it's "Apple Effect" not "Gas Lighting Effect" Well, Apple does have a knack of taking established conventions and technologies and then rebranding them with their Apple logo and marketing fairy dust. As your point states, it's quite effective xD
    - viraptor 7y ago
      Or in the old time, we used to call it Apple's "reality distortion field". Useful for googling similar issues from around the original iPhone time.
kbumsik 7y ago
It is not only about the Taiwanese flag mentioned in the article but the removal of the Hong Kong protesting app. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21210678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21210678 So Cook means that Apple did self-censorship in favor of China at their willing? That sounds even worse.
- eirini1 7y ago
  Sounds like a company tailoring its products to its market. This has happened forever, its just that the U.S market is no longer the biggest or most important one.
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    The Chinese government is not actually a market. It is a regulator and possibly a customer.
    - imglorp 7y ago
      Or, another possibility, even someone who can do favors. It's said Pablo Escobar didn't need to arrange those escapes from prison: he didn't have to ask. It was done for him because he would be grateful to his benefactors.
      - humanrebar 7y ago
        I was making a comment that "market" is a plural word. If it's a single entity involved, it is not a market. Even a discrete or organized set of entities is not a market. Accomadating, implicitly or explicitly, the Chinese government is not respecting or listening to a market because the Chinese government is not a market. This is a different kind of relationship to "people who buy iPhones" or "Canadians".
  - lettergram 7y ago
    The US market is still 3-4x China in terms of market size: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_markets https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_mar...
    - y4mi 7y ago
      Not if you're thinking of growth. They already'captured' so much of the us market that catering to it has sever denimishing returns. Most people already in the ecosystem will keep buying it no matter what Apple does. I'm China, they stand to gain a lot of new customers by catering to their wishes (or more specifically the wishes of their government)
sauceytongue 7y ago
it somehow sounds to me that china pressured apple to make this statement
- draw_down 7y ago
  Nope, it was part of an interview after the event at the Mac Pro plant with President Trump. Nice try though.
yyyk 7y ago
Cook is correct. If Apple does everything the Communist Party wants in advance, then there's no need for pressure.
- leetrout 7y ago
  I came to post this comment. I think you’re exactly right.
  - jbverschoor 7y ago
    Yeah similar to Zuckerberg statements a few weeks ago. You need to ask the right questions, before you get to the complete truth.
    - bitL 7y ago
      Zuckerberg has vested interests via his marriage. He can't be considered objective in any way wrt China.
      - djohnston 7y ago
        Please elaborate. She was born in Massachusetts and Facebook has no business in China.
        bitL 7y ago
        Thanks for a correction, I was obviously misinformed.
      - j_shi 7y ago
        You mean his American wife whose parents were refugees from Vietnam? Source: light googling
        sampo 7y ago
        The Hoa people (Han Chinese ethnic minority in Vietnam) suffered persecution under the socialist government of Vietnam in the 70s. That why many of them escaped as refugees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_people
unnouinceput 7y ago
If you think China doesn't have full access to Apple's users/customers data, then I have a bridge for sale.
- robin_reala 7y ago
  I’m sure they have access to the data that Apple’s devices store for users in the Chinese region. Beyond that I’d be extremely surprised.
  - mcny 7y ago
    My understanding is if you created your Apple ID in mainland China, this ID is forever associated with servers within China PR's authority regardless of where you go.
    - jrockway 7y ago
      Is this a big problem? You managed to escape a repressive regime; creating a new email address and clicking a few buttons on Apple's website seems well within your capabilities at that point.
      - paulryanrogers 7y ago
        It's a knowledge problem. Most people don't know.
    - throwaway58764 7y ago
      Does this mean these accounts would be hidden from Five Eyes? I wonder if this also means the CLOUD Act wouldn’t apply to these accounts? Since technically, it’s not Apple hosting iCloud in China but a separate local company.
  - jchook 7y ago
    We have no proof of what happens to our data. We can’t audit the source and we can’t see the protocols. China manufactures the physical chips and has a bad reputation for forcing companies to add backdoors.
yardie 7y ago
We saw how they treated and Google. They didn't have to tell us anything, the message was received loud and clear.
jstewartmobile 7y ago
"leave the apple store"
jkepler 7y ago
Sounds like Southpark's "Band in China"[1] isn't too far off the mark regarding "Vorauseilender Gehorchsam"[2] / "Anticipatory Obedience." [1] https://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s23e02-band-in-china https://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s23e02-band-in-china [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorauseilender_Gehorsam https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorauseilender_Gehorsam
- draw_down 7y ago
  Who said anything about South Park?! Come on
Despegar 7y ago
His answer is consistent with what Apple has said about iPhones and iCloud in China in the past [1]. The lack of pressure he's talking about is pressure to implement backdoors or otherwise compromise the end-to-end encryption in their products. Removing the Taiwan emoji or VPN apps from the App Store is a small price to pay if that's still the case. >Cook said they have never been asked in China by authorities to unlock an iPhone, but added, referring to the U.S., "I have here." >"And we stood up against that, and said we can't do it," he added. "Our privacy commitment is a worldwide one." I should also add that it's a good sign for Apple that China's embassy tweeted this out [2]. I've always wondered if or when China would force them to backdoor the iPhone or iMessage to operate there. But it seems like they've come to some sort of equilibrium where they realize that's an Apple core interest and can't push on it. If they're tweeting it out it means there's some limited propaganda value to them (in the same way that Putin gets some propaganda value by providing Snowden asylum) and it makes it unlikely that they would force Apple on this. Likewise it's also good that Josh Hawley and others are making noise about this [3]. On the surface he's targeting Apple for criticism, but his proposed bill doesn't really affect Apple since only Chinese iCloud data is stored in China, which would comply with his bill [4]. US politicians have mostly ignored this issue until now, it will help Apple by showing the CCP that the US has an interest in this. Perhaps in a trade deal they'll be able to undo the Chinese data localization requirement as well [5]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 [2] https://twitter.com/ChineseEmbinUS/status/1197546566216814592 https://twitter.com/ChineseEmbinUS/status/119754656621681459... [3] https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1196412815608864771 https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1196412815608864771 [4] https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-11/National-Security-Personal-Data-Protection-Act-Bill-Text.pdf https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-11/Na... [5] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-floats-cloud-concession-to-foreign-tech-firms-in-u-s-trade-talks-11553773127 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-floats-cloud-concession-t...
- Medicalidiot 7y ago
  How would China gain access to their citizen's phones then? There's no way that they don't have some type of ability to get into any single citizen's phone. I know that they were using exploits via Safari which seemed very sophisticated to monitor Uyghurs en masse.
mistermann 7y ago
Reeks of cowardice is close. Reeks of maximizing shareholder value is more accurate, and this is The West's Achilles heel. Well, one of many. It certainly won't happen overnight, but I see a checkmate forming, with no realistic way out.
kbutler 7y ago
If you move with the flow without resistance, you don't feel the pressure.
NicoJuicy 7y ago
Tim Cook is a supply-chain optimalisator. He won't do anything to put his supply-chain in jepardy. So, that includes not offending China. Even if he's telling the truth, he has lost my trust. I have no proof of him speaking his mind, ever. Like this, were he is used by Trump in the most publicly way possible: https://youtu.be/75-aFisygmA https://youtu.be/75-aFisygmA I'm pretty sure he rolls over, before they even ask. Blocking, unblocking and blocking the protestor app is Apple anticipating what they will gain with the most. And they came to the conclusion that China market access > human rights in Taiwan + bad publicity. And yeah, the internal note of Tom Cook was full of bullshit, concerning the app. No company is going to explain financial motives to their employees.
- frakkingcylons 7y ago
  > optimalisator uh what?
  - NicoJuicy 7y ago
    Haha, didn't knew the word for a guy that keeps optimizing something :p I suspect most people understood
    - Scramblejams 7y ago
      Optimizer?
      - NicoJuicy 7y ago
        Negotiator, Terminator, ... Thought it was a better fit
    - nate_meurer 7y ago
      Funny, somehow my brain transparently read it as "optimizer" and kept going without missing a beat. I like your word better though.
maxhedrome 7y ago
Ok Boomer
kd3 7y ago
Sure, I believe you Cook. You're willingly bending over and walking backwards for China. Pretty soon you're going to need buckets of lube to continue.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines like this. You may not owe Cook any better, but you owe this community better if you want to post here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago
There's no need to pressure them, they're happy to comply if it makes them money.
sebastianconcpt 7y ago
Then how this isn't worst? Is self-censorship signalling obedience to the communist regime now doesn't even need "pressure" and is now automatic by default?
ksec 7y ago
I have no problem with Apple if they had chosen to censor at the request of Chinese Government. At least I understand that is part of business in China. And they can remain silent on the issue. ( I do wish they stand up against CCP, but that is another issue ) What irritates me most from Tim Cook's Apple, is that he and Apple now pretends to be good and caring, and yet their actions shows the opposite. Whenever Tim Cook come on to the stage and said things like our customer loves the Mac, ( Not anymore) And they cares about their customers. ( Nothing in the past few years shows they do until Customers are fed up and leaving ) Many have been crying for years before they listen and get a new design with new keyboard. Steve doesn't admit it when there is a problem. But he often offers solutions and feedback very quickly, often within a shortened one cycle of product refresh. Magic Mouse, MacBook Air's USB port... etc And for most part, Steve doesn't tell lies, ( or lies that is external of Apple, anything internal he could be completely making things up to his wishes ). He does put a spin and deceptions into words. But this is not the first time we caught Tim Cook lying. From the Qualcomm case to the HK Protestor Apps ( Which isn't even used for illegal gathering, but getting away from unlimited use of Made in China's Toxic Tear gas ), to China's censorship. I agree with Gruber, this is just cowardice.
- microtherion 7y ago
  > But he often offers solutions and feedback very quickly "You're holding it wrong" > Magic Mouse Well, the infamous Hockey Puck Mouse stuck around for two years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse > And for most part, Steve doesn't tell lies It appears history has been kind to him…
  - ksec 7y ago
    >"You're holding it wrong" Yes, like I said he didn't admit the problem publicly, but actually offer a free case to those affected. Not to mention the Antenna gate lost of a few db signal was a problem that mostly affect US Carriers where Tower to Clients ratio are one of the lowest in developed countries. > Magic Mouse I cant find the pieces, where he actually admit the Hockey Puck Mouse problem and the general dislike from its customers. Not only do you have the option to use another mouse, which makes the matter not as urgent, he admitted he was working on a new design 6 - 8 months after the hockey puck shipped. And the Next Apple Pro Mouse was great. The solution to all problem is to admit there is a problem, The new Apple fail at that spectacularly.
Marazan 7y ago
If China hasn't pressure Apple it is only because Apple got ahead of the curve so that they didn't need to be pressured. Duplicitous cowards.
kube-system 7y ago
I think a lot of people on this topic are misapplying their western ideas about governance where it doesn't make sense. One-party states are very effective at implementing top-down rule, and pretty much none of them recognize a right to petition government for a redress of grievances. There's a completely different business environment when the government rule is no longer subject to debate. Corporations in the west have huge power to make political and social change, but this concept doesn't translate. Apple is a capable enough company that they already understand the legal, social, and political environment they are subject to when doing business in China. Beijing doesn't have to 'pressure' Apple to make changes. Apple already knows what they can and can't do. Global trade is an essential influence for the protection of human rights, but it's the definitely the long game. I think we'd be worse off as a world if we swing back towards isolationism again. An emoji is not the hill to die on here.
SZJX 7y ago
John Gruber might be technically brilliant but to be politically informed is a whole different matter. His pieces on those issues over the last few months "reek of" nativity, to use his own last sentence. Sure, everybody is entitled to their opinions but I'm not sure if it makes sense for him to be so loud and self-assured on these things before actually getting a solid grasp of them. His argument that Taiwanese flag has been OK to the Chinese regime because it's similar to the Hongkongnese flag is just plainly nonsense, if one has the least bit of awareness of Chinese news. Sure, HK and Macau have their own flags, but it is based on the understanding that ultimately they're "part of China". The Taiwanese use of their flag intends to signify that they are a completely independent political entity. You cannot simply claim they're the same thing. In fact, there have been countless incidents of international brands subject to the wrath of Chinese consumers (not really the regime) just because their wording/map etc. might be interpreted as supporting Taiwan independence. I'm not saying it is good for the populace to be this sensitive and nationalistic, but it is just the fact at this moment. I'm sure that when Apple decided to remove the flag, it's more of a "careful not to have any reason to be subject to a potential boycott" decision, i.e. a commercial one, which is natural to all profit-driven companies.

215 points by pcr910303 7y ago

Jonnax 7y ago

Isn't this what they call the Chilling Effect?

OzzyB 7y ago
Yes, and it's accompanied by the Gas Lighting effect, as demonstrated here.
- yyyk 7y ago
  Nah, that's due to the Apple Effect. Apple has for a long time performed and perfected the "Gas Lighting effect", including issues unrelated to China. "You're holding it wrong", "Our butterfly keyboards are perfectly fine", "The iOS update does not slow down our older models"... Other companies screw up, cheat and sometimes even lie, but Apple and a section of its fanboys repeatedly gaslight - even on small faults.
  - OzzyB 7y ago
    > it's "Apple Effect" not "Gas Lighting Effect" Well, Apple does have a knack of taking established conventions and technologies and then rebranding them with their Apple logo and marketing fairy dust. As your point states, it's quite effective xD
  - viraptor 7y ago
    Or in the old time, we used to call it Apple's "reality distortion field". Useful for googling similar issues from around the original iPhone time.

kbumsik 7y ago

It is not only about the Taiwanese flag mentioned in the article but the removal of the Hong Kong protesting app. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21210678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21210678 So Cook means that Apple did self-censorship in favor of China at their willing? That sounds even worse.

eirini1 7y ago
Sounds like a company tailoring its products to its market. This has happened forever, its just that the U.S market is no longer the biggest or most important one.
- humanrebar 7y ago
  The Chinese government is not actually a market. It is a regulator and possibly a customer.
  - imglorp 7y ago
    Or, another possibility, even someone who can do favors. It's said Pablo Escobar didn't need to arrange those escapes from prison: he didn't have to ask. It was done for him because he would be grateful to his benefactors.
    - humanrebar 7y ago
      I was making a comment that "market" is a plural word. If it's a single entity involved, it is not a market. Even a discrete or organized set of entities is not a market. Accomadating, implicitly or explicitly, the Chinese government is not respecting or listening to a market because the Chinese government is not a market. This is a different kind of relationship to "people who buy iPhones" or "Canadians".
- lettergram 7y ago
  The US market is still 3-4x China in terms of market size: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_markets https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_mar...
  - y4mi 7y ago
    Not if you're thinking of growth. They already'captured' so much of the us market that catering to it has sever denimishing returns. Most people already in the ecosystem will keep buying it no matter what Apple does. I'm China, they stand to gain a lot of new customers by catering to their wishes (or more specifically the wishes of their government)

sauceytongue 7y ago

it somehow sounds to me that china pressured apple to make this statement

draw_down 7y ago
Nope, it was part of an interview after the event at the Mac Pro plant with President Trump. Nice try though.

yyyk 7y ago

Cook is correct. If Apple does everything the Communist Party wants in advance, then there's no need for pressure.

leetrout 7y ago
I came to post this comment. I think you’re exactly right.
- jbverschoor 7y ago
  Yeah similar to Zuckerberg statements a few weeks ago. You need to ask the right questions, before you get to the complete truth.
  - bitL 7y ago
    Zuckerberg has vested interests via his marriage. He can't be considered objective in any way wrt China.
    - djohnston 7y ago
      Please elaborate. She was born in Massachusetts and Facebook has no business in China.
      - bitL 7y ago
        Thanks for a correction, I was obviously misinformed.
    - j_shi 7y ago
      You mean his American wife whose parents were refugees from Vietnam? Source: light googling
      - sampo 7y ago
        The Hoa people (Han Chinese ethnic minority in Vietnam) suffered persecution under the socialist government of Vietnam in the 70s. That why many of them escaped as refugees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_people

unnouinceput 7y ago

If you think China doesn't have full access to Apple's users/customers data, then I have a bridge for sale.

robin_reala 7y ago
I’m sure they have access to the data that Apple’s devices store for users in the Chinese region. Beyond that I’d be extremely surprised.
- mcny 7y ago
  My understanding is if you created your Apple ID in mainland China, this ID is forever associated with servers within China PR's authority regardless of where you go.
  - jrockway 7y ago
    Is this a big problem? You managed to escape a repressive regime; creating a new email address and clicking a few buttons on Apple's website seems well within your capabilities at that point.
    - paulryanrogers 7y ago
      It's a knowledge problem. Most people don't know.
  - throwaway58764 7y ago
    Does this mean these accounts would be hidden from Five Eyes? I wonder if this also means the CLOUD Act wouldn’t apply to these accounts? Since technically, it’s not Apple hosting iCloud in China but a separate local company.
- jchook 7y ago
  We have no proof of what happens to our data. We can’t audit the source and we can’t see the protocols. China manufactures the physical chips and has a bad reputation for forcing companies to add backdoors.

yardie 7y ago

We saw how they treated and Google. They didn't have to tell us anything, the message was received loud and clear.

jstewartmobile 7y ago

"leave the apple store"

jkepler 7y ago

Sounds like Southpark's "Band in China"[1] isn't too far off the mark regarding "Vorauseilender Gehorchsam"[2] / "Anticipatory Obedience." [1] https://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s23e02-band-in-china https://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s23e02-band-in-china [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorauseilender_Gehorsam https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorauseilender_Gehorsam

draw_down 7y ago
Who said anything about South Park?! Come on

Despegar 7y ago

His answer is consistent with what Apple has said about iPhones and iCloud in China in the past [1]. The lack of pressure he's talking about is pressure to implement backdoors or otherwise compromise the end-to-end encryption in their products. Removing the Taiwan emoji or VPN apps from the App Store is a small price to pay if that's still the case. >Cook said they have never been asked in China by authorities to unlock an iPhone, but added, referring to the U.S., "I have here." >"And we stood up against that, and said we can't do it," he added. "Our privacy commitment is a worldwide one." I should also add that it's a good sign for Apple that China's embassy tweeted this out [2]. I've always wondered if or when China would force them to backdoor the iPhone or iMessage to operate there. But it seems like they've come to some sort of equilibrium where they realize that's an Apple core interest and can't push on it. If they're tweeting it out it means there's some limited propaganda value to them (in the same way that Putin gets some propaganda value by providing Snowden asylum) and it makes it unlikely that they would force Apple on this. Likewise it's also good that Josh Hawley and others are making noise about this [3]. On the surface he's targeting Apple for criticism, but his proposed bill doesn't really affect Apple since only Chinese iCloud data is stored in China, which would comply with his bill [4]. US politicians have mostly ignored this issue until now, it will help Apple by showing the CCP that the US has an interest in this. Perhaps in a trade deal they'll be able to undo the Chinese data localization requirement as well [5]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 [2] https://twitter.com/ChineseEmbinUS/status/1197546566216814592 https://twitter.com/ChineseEmbinUS/status/119754656621681459... [3] https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1196412815608864771 https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1196412815608864771 [4] https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-11/National-Security-Personal-Data-Protection-Act-Bill-Text.pdf https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-11/Na... [5] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-floats-cloud-concession-to-foreign-tech-firms-in-u-s-trade-talks-11553773127 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-floats-cloud-concession-t...

Medicalidiot 7y ago
How would China gain access to their citizen's phones then? There's no way that they don't have some type of ability to get into any single citizen's phone. I know that they were using exploits via Safari which seemed very sophisticated to monitor Uyghurs en masse.

mistermann 7y ago

Reeks of cowardice is close. Reeks of maximizing shareholder value is more accurate, and this is The West's Achilles heel. Well, one of many. It certainly won't happen overnight, but I see a checkmate forming, with no realistic way out.

kbutler 7y ago

If you move with the flow without resistance, you don't feel the pressure.

NicoJuicy 7y ago

Tim Cook is a supply-chain optimalisator. He won't do anything to put his supply-chain in jepardy. So, that includes not offending China. Even if he's telling the truth, he has lost my trust. I have no proof of him speaking his mind, ever. Like this, were he is used by Trump in the most publicly way possible: https://youtu.be/75-aFisygmA https://youtu.be/75-aFisygmA I'm pretty sure he rolls over, before they even ask. Blocking, unblocking and blocking the protestor app is Apple anticipating what they will gain with the most. And they came to the conclusion that China market access > human rights in Taiwan + bad publicity. And yeah, the internal note of Tom Cook was full of bullshit, concerning the app. No company is going to explain financial motives to their employees.

frakkingcylons 7y ago
> optimalisator uh what?
- NicoJuicy 7y ago
  Haha, didn't knew the word for a guy that keeps optimizing something :p I suspect most people understood
  - Scramblejams 7y ago
    Optimizer?
    - NicoJuicy 7y ago
      Negotiator, Terminator, ... Thought it was a better fit
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    Funny, somehow my brain transparently read it as "optimizer" and kept going without missing a beat. I like your word better though.

maxhedrome 7y ago

Ok Boomer

kd3 7y ago

Sure, I believe you Cook. You're willingly bending over and walking backwards for China. Pretty soon you're going to need buckets of lube to continue.

dang 7y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines like this. You may not owe Cook any better, but you owe this community better if you want to post here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago

There's no need to pressure them, they're happy to comply if it makes them money.

sebastianconcpt 7y ago

Then how this isn't worst? Is self-censorship signalling obedience to the communist regime now doesn't even need "pressure" and is now automatic by default?

ksec 7y ago

I have no problem with Apple if they had chosen to censor at the request of Chinese Government. At least I understand that is part of business in China. And they can remain silent on the issue. ( I do wish they stand up against CCP, but that is another issue ) What irritates me most from Tim Cook's Apple, is that he and Apple now pretends to be good and caring, and yet their actions shows the opposite. Whenever Tim Cook come on to the stage and said things like our customer loves the Mac, ( Not anymore) And they cares about their customers. ( Nothing in the past few years shows they do until Customers are fed up and leaving ) Many have been crying for years before they listen and get a new design with new keyboard. Steve doesn't admit it when there is a problem. But he often offers solutions and feedback very quickly, often within a shortened one cycle of product refresh. Magic Mouse, MacBook Air's USB port... etc And for most part, Steve doesn't tell lies, ( or lies that is external of Apple, anything internal he could be completely making things up to his wishes ). He does put a spin and deceptions into words. But this is not the first time we caught Tim Cook lying. From the Qualcomm case to the HK Protestor Apps ( Which isn't even used for illegal gathering, but getting away from unlimited use of Made in China's Toxic Tear gas ), to China's censorship. I agree with Gruber, this is just cowardice.

microtherion 7y ago
> But he often offers solutions and feedback very quickly "You're holding it wrong" > Magic Mouse Well, the infamous Hockey Puck Mouse stuck around for two years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse > And for most part, Steve doesn't tell lies It appears history has been kind to him…
- ksec 7y ago
  >"You're holding it wrong" Yes, like I said he didn't admit the problem publicly, but actually offer a free case to those affected. Not to mention the Antenna gate lost of a few db signal was a problem that mostly affect US Carriers where Tower to Clients ratio are one of the lowest in developed countries. > Magic Mouse I cant find the pieces, where he actually admit the Hockey Puck Mouse problem and the general dislike from its customers. Not only do you have the option to use another mouse, which makes the matter not as urgent, he admitted he was working on a new design 6 - 8 months after the hockey puck shipped. And the Next Apple Pro Mouse was great. The solution to all problem is to admit there is a problem, The new Apple fail at that spectacularly.

Marazan 7y ago

If China hasn't pressure Apple it is only because Apple got ahead of the curve so that they didn't need to be pressured. Duplicitous cowards.

kube-system 7y ago

I think a lot of people on this topic are misapplying their western ideas about governance where it doesn't make sense. One-party states are very effective at implementing top-down rule, and pretty much none of them recognize a right to petition government for a redress of grievances. There's a completely different business environment when the government rule is no longer subject to debate. Corporations in the west have huge power to make political and social change, but this concept doesn't translate. Apple is a capable enough company that they already understand the legal, social, and political environment they are subject to when doing business in China. Beijing doesn't have to 'pressure' Apple to make changes. Apple already knows what they can and can't do. Global trade is an essential influence for the protection of human rights, but it's the definitely the long game. I think we'd be worse off as a world if we swing back towards isolationism again. An emoji is not the hill to die on here.

SZJX 7y ago

John Gruber might be technically brilliant but to be politically informed is a whole different matter. His pieces on those issues over the last few months "reek of" nativity, to use his own last sentence. Sure, everybody is entitled to their opinions but I'm not sure if it makes sense for him to be so loud and self-assured on these things before actually getting a solid grasp of them. His argument that Taiwanese flag has been OK to the Chinese regime because it's similar to the Hongkongnese flag is just plainly nonsense, if one has the least bit of awareness of Chinese news. Sure, HK and Macau have their own flags, but it is based on the understanding that ultimately they're "part of China". The Taiwanese use of their flag intends to signify that they are a completely independent political entity. You cannot simply claim they're the same thing. In fact, there have been countless incidents of international brands subject to the wrath of Chinese consumers (not really the regime) just because their wording/map etc. might be interpreted as supporting Taiwan independence. I'm not saying it is good for the populace to be this sensitive and nationalistic, but it is just the fact at this moment. I'm sure that when Apple decided to remove the flag, it's more of a "careful not to have any reason to be subject to a potential boycott" decision, i.e. a commercial one, which is natural to all profit-driven companies.