17 ms·

Alan Moore on superhero culture

290 points by cmsefton 7y ago

vkaku 7y ago
I also think that the everyday super hero, for all purposes is not available in movies any more. What happened to movies like Volcano or Speed?
- protomyth 7y ago
  Event Films. Even Fast & The Furious are basically low-powered superhero films. We want deeper dramas (so TV) and the price of buy-in for films is pretty damn high. Plus, you need to appeal to US, China, and maybe Europe. High powered stuff works better. Horror seems surprisingly resilient, but that might be the nature of going to a theater. I'm sure the trend will switch again, but I have doubts that some genres will ever return to movie theaters in mass.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cmsefton 7y ago
FYI, the full interview is available here https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2019/11/moore-on-jerusalem-eternalism-anarchy.html https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2019/11/moore-on-jerusal... EDIT: The relevant quote (although the whole interview is pretty interesting): "I think the impact of superheroes on popular culture is both tremendously embarrassing and not a little worrying. While these characters were originally perfectly suited to stimulating the imaginations of their twelve or thirteen year-old audience, today’s franchised übermenschen, aimed at a supposedly adult audience, seem to be serving some kind of different function, and fulfilling different needs. Primarily, mass-market superhero movies seem to be abetting an audience who do not wish to relinquish their grip on (a) their relatively reassuring childhoods, or (b) the relatively reassuring 20th century. The continuing popularity of these movies to me suggests some kind of deliberate, self-imposed state of emotional arrest, combined with an numbing condition of cultural stasis that can be witnessed in comics, movies, popular music and, indeed, right across the cultural spectrum. The superheroes themselves – largely written and drawn by creators who have never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them, much less the rights of a Jack Kirby or Jerry Siegel or Joe Schuster – would seem to be largely employed as cowardice compensators, perhaps a bit like the handgun on the nightstand. I would also remark that save for a smattering of non-white characters (and non-white creators) these books and these iconic characters are still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race. In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks."
- malvosenior 7y ago
  This is probably the most astute comment on the current media landscape I've ever seen. Just as Moore says, much of our world is trapped in the 20th century. The media, the philosophy, the people in charge... I once read Baby Boomer culture described as an ugly toad squatting on the rest of society, holding it back. The truth turned out to be a bit different though. Even the younger generations still willingly embrace 20th century life (probably more than they realize). I think social media will finally tip things over into a new era though. The narcissism that is its core feature is also an outgrowth of 20th century individualism and a quest for self actualization. Pushed to its limits, it destroys its participants and society at large. For anyone interested in these topics, I highly recommend The Century Of The Self. It talks about the intersection of psychology, marketing, technology and the generation that grew up with them in the 20th century. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self
  - jstewartmobile 7y ago
    sounds like a film version of Christopher Lasch
  - ecf 7y ago
    I feel it’s a chicken - egg problem. Are we embracing 20th century life by clinging on to old movie IPs, or are we just constantly being fed the same type of stuff by Studios who’ve found “their formula” for making content with a low risk of flopping, for example.
    - schwartzworld 7y ago
      Por que no los dos?
      - bdamm 7y ago
        Indeed, I am patronizing the indie cinema much more these days. Mainly, because they have actually interesting movies, unlike the bland drivel that being spooned out of Hollywood.
altoidaltoid 7y ago
I actually enjoy anti-hero series such as "The Boys" which runs counter to the MCU
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  I enjoyed The Boys too. That being said, part of why I watch super movies/shows is to enjoy the escape, to see people being ... more. I can see people being assholes anywhere, so a story that focuses around that needs to be significantly better than one that doesn't for me to enjoy it.
- PopeDotNinja 7y ago
  I enjoyed that show quite a bit. It's fun to see supers w/ both light & dark sides.
  - protomyth 7y ago
    I haven't watched the show, but as I remember it, the light side was pretty much absent from the comics. I assume they heavily deviated from the comics? I'll know when its gone too far when they make "Crossed" into a TV series.
  - RHSeeger 7y ago
    If you enjoyed The Karate Kid when you were younger, I would recommend Cobra Kai. It's a very good expression of the idea that everyone is the hero of their own story; everyone thinks they're the good guy, and yet everyone is a jerk in their own special way.
- jimbokun 7y ago
  I think this is more the kind of thing Moore is criticizing. Is "The Boys" really deep and insightful look at human nature, or just continuing to indulge in material meant for kids with more violence and nudity to make you feel more grown up while watching it? I love comic books by the way. But it's meant as simple escapist pleasure where you know at the end the good guys win. Making them anti-heroes and upping the "transgressive" content while keeping all hte other tropes doesn't automatically make it deep art.
RHSeeger 7y ago
Admittedly, this is Martin Scorsese instead of Moore, but.... > It isn't the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being. I'm in my late 40s, and I teared up when during the death scene in the most recent movie. And again during the scene with his daughter, talking about burgers. If I had been watching it at home alone, I would probably have been outright crying, thinking about how I miss my own father. Just because the movies don't speak to everyone doesn't mean they don't speak to anyone. I feel like there's an awful lot of people out there that think they're better than everyone else because they're more limited in what they can understand. That seems backwards.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  I'm right beside you. It spoke to me due to experiences, emotions, and fears about my own responsibilities I didn't have as a teenager.
- simonh 7y ago
  Romanoff and Banner. Stark and Peter Parker. Thanos and Gamorra. Gamorra and Nebula. There are plenty of interesting relationships there.
  - puranjay 7y ago
    I find the non-romantic relationships to be far more interesting. Romanoff and Captain America, for instance. Male-female friendships on screen are rare, especially when both the man and woman are attractive and the woman fills the "temptress" role outside of the friendship.
    - simonh 7y ago
      None of my examples are romantic. Notwithstanding a Stark ‘hide the Zuchini’ gag, that’s not how I read their relationship.
- jszymborski 7y ago
  I'm a person within the superhero demo who has seen a couple of Marvel movies recommended to me, and have not connected to them at all. That being said, they certainly mean a lot to a lot of people, and it elicits a feeling they seek out, which is enough to call it art in my books. I may not enjoy the films, but I'll always be interested in getting to know why people feel as strongly as they do about it, instead of dismissing it because it isn't mutual. EDIT: This is more relevant re: the Scorsese quote. Alan Moore obviously hasn't discounted them as art.
RHSeeger 7y ago
> Primarily, mass-market superhero movies seem to be abetting an audience who do not wish to relinquish their grip on (a) their relatively reassuring childhoods, or (b) the relatively reassuring 20th century. Or, you know, sometimes we just like a little escape-ism. It's no different than reading a good sci-fi/fantasy book where the hero(es) win in the end. It's fun. Not everything needs to be a deep exploration of our intellectual and emotional destitution, not for everyone.
- jrochkind1 7y ago
  The particular common themes and tropes used for escape-ism are not irrelevant to understanding the cultural context. Superhero stuff obviously isn't the only kind of fiction that can be used to get a little escape-ism, and fiction isn't even the only way to find a little escape-ism, but superhero movies are a currently especially popular one, and it is not silly to look at the cultural resonances of why that might be.
  - chimprich 7y ago
    > superhero movies are a currently especially popular one Is this really a new thing? As far as I can tell, the trope of the superhero has been wildly popular throughout cultural history. Achilles, Thor, Arthur, and so on.
    - peterwwillis 7y ago
      When was the last time in the past couple centuries that people were flocking to dozens of plays about Nordic and Greek heroes for 15 years straight?
      - Touche 7y ago
        Cowboy movies (westerns) and plays were the superhero movies of the past couple centuries, until they faded out (from mass popularity) in the 1970s or so.
papito 7y ago
In our post-shame, fact-resistant world, maybe we should recalibrate what a superhero is. Perhaps it's someone who values public good over personal profit, and someone who doesn't compromise their principles in the face of trolling and smearing. Children should be looking up to THAT, not being able to punch through walls. The bar is pretty low.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  But superheroes provide convenient excuses why we don't do that: they're super. Oh sure, you can argue that some of them don't have magic powers, like Batman and Ironman, but that's ignoring super-wealth (and impossible engineering). What we need is a superhero who's just a guy with a crappy office job who wants to make the world a better place, and his only tools are his sense of justice and a costume he bought at a garage sale. Someone so utterly unremarkable that they just use their regular name as their superhero name. That's right, I'm saying we need an Arthur movie. ...more realistically, I think we could use more stories about regular people who made a difference just by be being good people.
  - yyx 7y ago
    Reminds me of "Super" (2010) by James Gunn https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1512235/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1512235/
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    >...more realistically, I think we could use more stories about regular people who made a difference just by be being good people. Plenty of those exist, but they scratch a different itch. People can enjoy both.
  - Krasnol 7y ago
    How about a hoodie and we all watch Mr. Robot?
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > ...more realistically, I think we could use more stories about regular people who made a difference just by be being good people. TNG-era Star Trek had a lot of that. Sure, the protagonists were not regular people, but they also didn't have superpowers. Their specialness served primarily to ensure they had lots of problems thrown at them, problems they very often solved through the strength of their character (and the character of the organization backing them), instead of trickery or violence. I miss that in today's entertainment.
Zelphyr 7y ago
I have to agree with Scorsese here. I don't remember the last superhero movie I saw where I didn't walk out with a yawn. They're just so predictable. Everyday guy or gal gets bestowed with or discovers powers of some sort and cut to blowing a bunch of stuff up. End credits with some teaser afterwards. And that's just the first of what will inevitably be many more movies culminating in blowing even bigger things up (has any of them gotten to the point of blowing up a whole planet yet?) If I'm being fair, this predictability problem is pretty rampant in Hollywood. I rewatched Pulp Fiction recently and I remember seeing it for the first time and being blown away. It was anything but predictable. It was hilarious and disturbing at the same time but, most of all, it was creative. To my mind, there's little true creativity to movies anymore.
- Softcadbury 7y ago
  You should definitely consider korean movies (Parasite, Train to Busan, The Handmaiden, Memories of Murder, The Wailing, I Saw the Devil, ...)
  - moufestaphio 7y ago
    It's mandatory I mention: Old Boy. But you're right, there are a lot of great Korean movies. A few more of my favourites are: - New World - Welcome to Dongmakgol
    - clairity 7y ago
      yes! i recently saw old boy for the first time. disturbing, thought-provoking, well-made, well-acted, emotional, tense, even funny at times, but oh-so-disturbing.
- inertiatic 7y ago
  Why do you have to be surprised by your entertainment? You re-watched a movie which you found again enjoyable despite being a predictable experience now. There are other metrics on which do judge entertainment or even art.
jrochkind1 7y ago
This is a serious mic-drop line that had my jaw hanging open: > In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks. Super heroes capes and masks as inspired by KKK hoods? I don't think it was probably intentional/conscious in the minds of those who originated it, and I don't think Moore necessarily means it was either... but it's definitely an interesting cultural collective unconsciousness sort of lineage.
- myself248 7y ago
  I'd point to that right alongside the recent obsession with bacon as a subtle anti-Jewish anti-Muslim sentiment. Certainly plenty of folks do just like the taste of the stuff, but I think often those folks are along for the ride on the coattails of a dog-whistle. If you're someone whose faith commands that you not go near swine of any sort, a catalog with several pages of bacon-themed products might start to feel like it was written with someone else in mind...
  - jbigelow76 7y ago
    That's why I'm always leery of ordering shrimp cocktail when having dinner with my Jewish friends. - signed, the world's most passive aggressive dinner companion
  - magashna 7y ago
    Why can't a BLT just be a BLT? Seems like a reach.
    - jrochkind1 7y ago
      Pretty positive the person you are replying to is being sarcastic and/or trolling, and agrees with you.
  - beart 7y ago
    Or just a clever marketing campaign by the pork industry...
sharadov 7y ago
I enjoy deep philosophical exploratory stuff and at the same time love the quick respite that a movie like John Wick or a X-men provides. To each his own.
sethammons 7y ago
> [Marvel movies are] theme parks. It isn't the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being. --Martin Scorsese I find so much wrong with that view. Scorsese thinks they should be "something other than cinema." Cinema is just movies. There are all kinds of flavors. I like to just tune out and enjoy the ride on some movies, and some talk to the depths of the human condition. I find lots of things relatable in the Marvel movies. Loss of loved ones, awkward social interactions, elbow jabbing at friends. When I'm searching for something to watch, I tend to go with Rotten Tomato scores as a valuable data point. One very valuable data point is high critics score and low audience score. Critics want everything to be psychological experiences, but I think a lot of them fail to realize that some movies will ring closer to home for some vs others. An example is Joker. Not your typical comic book movie at all. With a very limited data set, I've seen people who have experienced the kind of life that Arthur experiences in that movie and it hits too close to home. Meanwhile, others who can't conceive of that as a reality dismiss the movie. Different films speak to different people.
jstewartmobile 7y ago
These movies--including V--are violent power fantasies for people without agency. This is "anime was a mistake" tier clarity on Alan Moore's behalf. Good on him!
hardwaregeek 7y ago
I have a theory that this obsession with superheros is part of a greater obsession with continuity. Whether it's TV shows or cinematic universes, people crave a sense of continuity in their narrative. Right now there's a lack of continuity, a lack of semantic cohesion within the world. Values have disintegrated. Stuff that would have been otherwise meaningful, whether that be working class life, or the institution of the presidency or the guarantees of a college degree, are now meaningless or less meaningful.
- Izkata 7y ago
  > I have a theory that this obsession with superheros is part of a greater obsession with continuity. Whether it's TV shows or cinematic universes, people crave a sense of continuity in their narrative. I have a strong suspicion this part is correct, but that most are unaware of it. Kind of a "you don't miss what you never had" situation. Not so sure about the rest. Aside from realizing it about myself several years ago, here's some evidence: * Up above, someone mentioned a couple of failed cinematic universes [0]: Warner/DC and Universal's Monster Universe. * No one has mentioned a second successful one: The Conjuring Universe. * The Conjuring Universe did one of the exact same things that the MCU did, that the failed ones did not: Separate films drawn together. * The MCU's first films were completely standalone, just sharing things like Coulson and Fury as easter eggs, and only later drawn together into the same universe. Until Avengers, it was entirely possible for the casual moviegoer to miss this, creating a low barrier to entry - you didn't have to know the previous film, as you would a sequel. Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America could each draw in a different audience. * The first "universe" film in the Conjuring, Annabelle, was designed to work standalone instead of as a sequel, same as the first MCU films. Like the MCU, they included callbacks that fans could catch, but nothing important that broke the movie's flow. Again, low barrier to entry for moviegoers who are used to standalone films and don't want to commit themselves to a longer series. * On the flipside, DC and Monster both announced up front they were creating a cinematic universe, before the first movies were even out. This created a high barrier to entry for casual moviegoers - they knew up front they'd have to see further movies to get the full story. I think that's the big key, capturing the casual moviegoers with seemingly standalone films, then holding their attention with extended continuity only after they're invested. It's really easy to go see a second movie if you'd already seen the first. Conjuring and MCU both did that well, without creating an initial commitment by announcing multiple films. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21577536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21577536
PaulHoule 7y ago
Funny that the most durable stories of all time (Gilgamesh, Greek Myths, Norse Myths, the Bible) are all basically superhero stories.
- cbron 7y ago
  Mythology has served various purposes over the course of human history. This is referring specifically to modern superhero culture which may be derived from mythology but isn't comparable to it.
  - Forge36 7y ago
    Maybe we've just replaced gods with fictional stories? I think the two can still be talked about (HBO is making American Gods about mythology as written and updated by Neil Gaiman)
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Ok so persuade us - that's a very big statement to make there
    - cbron 7y ago
      religion != entertainment
      - PaulHoule 7y ago
        Depends. The first two seasons of Pretty Cure looked like religious education to me. The first season was about Shinto and the second about Confucianism. The series systematically worked through about how you would feel about your place, your town, nature, the people around you, history, work, community, etc.
      - marcosdumay 7y ago
        That statement is not as obvious as it seems at first. Cinema in particular is way more similar to temple sermons than it seems at first.
olivierlacan 7y ago
There's no timelier follow up to Alan Moore's stance on superhero culture than Damon Lindelof's Watchmen which is currently in the middle of its first (and likely only) season run on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/watchmen https://www.hbo.com/watchmen It's not only a high-flying feat of television writing, acting, and directing. It's something Moore will likely never endorse or even see (he's apparently denounced any adaptation/continuation of his work) and yet embodies the spirit of Watchmen better than anything I've ever seen in the genre. Lindelof and Chernobyl creator Craig Mazin records an hourlong podcast (https://www.hbo.com/watchmen/watchmen-listen-to-official-podcast https://www.hbo.com/watchmen/watchmen-listen-to-official-pod...) for HBO talking about the genesis of show, its relationship with the Zach Snyder movie (respect for the form, detachment from the execution and alterations), and the very subject of this BBC piece: people who wear masks to enact vigilante justice are and should be concerning. The parallels between 1985 and 2019 malaise, worldwide unrest, and that awful feeling that something's not quite right with the way the world is running are incredible well capture by the show. Whether you've read the graphic novel or not, I can't recommend watching HBO's Watchmen enough. Even if you dismiss it as an unworthy heir to Moore and Gibbon's work, you will without a doubt be blown away by the show and how impeccably crafted it is. For detail-hungry folks, the show's writing staff is release ancillary material that expands on the world (re)building within the show at https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia. Obviously don't read this before you watch each specific episode. PS: I found the premise of the Amazon's The Boys interesting but beyond some impressive sequences and shocking twists, the show's writing is a bit too cynically shallow for its own good. There's not much commentary beyond the rottenness of (almost) every character in the show and that ends up feeling a little too much of one-note throughout the whole season.
- beart 7y ago
  Also - the music in Watchmen is incredible and really sets the tone.
  - olivierlacan 7y ago
    Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross definitely deliver the goods. It kind of baffles me how little I see this show discussed. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/trent-reznor-atticus-watchmen-soundtrack-901981/ https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/trent-reznor-a...
irrational 7y ago
I love the current superhero movies. I'd be worried about this backlash from people like Moore and Scorsese if it wasn't for the fact that these movies are pulling in around a billion dollars on average. Disney is in it for the money and as long as the movies are pulling in the $ they will keep making them.
hirundo 7y ago
Co-opting Thor as a superhero was a clear commentary by the writers on how superheros and theism are intertwined. The most popular supers of our cultural imagination are Jehovah, Muhammad, Buddha, et al. So this is no sort of new phenomenon, but a secular reinvention of an ancient one. Apparently there is a deep psychological need for the great Father or Mother, and superheros are a way that modern markets attempt to fulfill it. Or to sedate it.
tracer4201 7y ago
Hollywood is self serving. Supposedly they come off as liberals, but how many superhero movies are there where the world isn’t being saved by a white, American man? I mean - Arabs are typically terrorists or something along those lines in these movies. We want to depict a scene shot in Mexico? Change the colors to yellowish/orangish. Russians or East European characters? Typically mafia. As much as many of these celebrities supposedly care about immigrants, diversity, inclusivity - how often is that shown on film? Oh right - it really isn’t unless the studios are convinced they can monetize it.
miguelmota 7y ago
Agree, Marvel characters are narcissistic elitists that in every movie seems as if they like destroying civilian cities for things that they caused themselves. The MCU movies are overdone but Disney knows that it’s like crack for kids and teenagers.
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  The MCU format is also acceptable in China. That's what really matters the most to Disney.
Krasnol 7y ago
I tried to get into Watchman and I couldn't...found it too embarrassing. I do get what he wanted to do through the story but the dresses and die dialogues are as cringe worthy as the rest of the genre.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  I'm not going to defend Alan Moore, weird wizard who worships a snake god as he is, but the Watchman movie isn't his baby. He's only put his name behind the graphic novel, which you might find much less cringy.
tlholaday 7y ago
Was he asked about James Bond movies?
Vysero 7y ago
They aren't meant to be anything more than a quick thrill. They are literally the equivalent of a theme park ride and that's the whole point. Contrary to popular belief not everything you do in life needs to be mind blowing and life changing. Sometimes you just need to sit back and enjoy the ride. "Life is a playground or nothing." -Jaco Van Dormael
ergothus 7y ago
Something I've noticed in recent superhero movies is the idea that: * For all the talk about "heart", superheroes are extraordinary by some aspect the rest of us can't expect to get * Yet supervillains are often just normal people who got too pissed off. The villains in Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Iron Man 3, Spider Man: Far From Home, Captain America: Civil War, Ant-Man, etc are just people that got ticked off. We have to count on others to be superheroes, but we're all one bad day from becoming supervillains.
jmull 7y ago
I can't imagine worrying about Alan Moore's (or Scorsese's) narrow opinions when choosing entertainment. For one thing, I think Moore is clearly wrong about what adults typically get out of superhero movies. I think it's entertainment, and not some kind of deeper emotional experience. Put it this way: if people generally need movies for meaningful emotional experiences, there are some profound problems in our society that goes far beyond cinema. It really is OK, and not a sign of some deficiency, that people are making and enjoying well-made, epic action/fantasy films. Anyway, when I see something like this: > He says superheroes are written and drawn by people who've never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them - saying they appear "to be largely employed as cowardice compensators". I think he's really struggling with understanding the perspective of people who don't see the world or think of it the way he does.
- deleted 7y ago
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- leftyted 7y ago
  I think it is a "deeper emotional experience". But I'm skeptical that this is anything new. Today we (or at least me and Alan Moore) look back at the 60s and 70s and think "wow a movie like Easy Rider was a hit. How times have changed". Maybe. But maybe we just remember the hits from 40 years ago that were actually good. And maybe 40 years from now we'll remember a handful of good movies made today that did well in the box office but we'll forget all the junk. Part of me does think that big movies today are essentially philistine. But it's also true that movies are cheaper to make than ever. And plenty of wonderful movies are being made, so I find myself unable to get too sad about our situation. There's more interesting movies coming out than I have time to watch, so if I was complaining, I'd be complaining that "other people don't have the same taste as me," which seems childish. > Put it this way: if people generally need movies for meaningful emotional experiences, there are some profound problems in our society that goes far beyond cinema. I think you're deeply wrong. People experience "meaningful emotional experiences" via narrative, fictional or not. This has always been the case and there's no reason to assume it will ever not be the case. Movies are just another narrative form.
- pixelbath 7y ago
tialaramex 7y ago
Lots of people have been exposed to Watchmen - his book about masks (vigilantes, no more "super" powered than the hero of any Hollywood movie they won't die if shot but they can't fly), but he'd also by that point written Miracleman - which is about supers (whose identity may not even be a secret, since they are to varying extent god-like and it hardly matters). In both cases Moore covered all the ground popular culture still thinks is radical and interesting today and went beyond it - thirty years ago. Miracleman in particular has a lot of stuff about abuse of power, the title character has been brain-washed basically by the government, so as to have a tame superhero who can be sent out to do whatever they want. Once he is free and understands what's going on he doesn't beat up muggers, or even corrupt politicians, he destroys _capitalism_ and remakes the whole world as a utopia. Moore was done with the book at that point. And so here we are in 2019 and people haven't moved on to even where Moore was in the 1980s, that's got to be fairly frustrating.
Noos 7y ago
Actually I'd argue modern superhero culture is a rebuttal to the kind of ponderous dreck Moore and the rest of the British invasion put out. A reaction against the constant need to politicize and comment on a genre as opposed to simply explore it. Sort of the reason why Manga is so popular is that it doesn't focus heavily on political themes; My Hero Academia is really just about the superheroes.
gimmeThaBeet 7y ago
I find Moore's criticisms a little odd. Imo part of what has made Moore's work so notable is that it turns the genre sideways, or obviously deals with subjects in a much more mature way than an audience is used to seeing. The subversion doesn't work if there's nothing to undermine. There's things like The Killing Joke that are sort of things unto themselves, but I feel without the context of 'normal' superhero stuff, you lose quite a bit of the venom in like Watchmen or like The Boys (although it's Ennis, they're in the same realm). But I can admit some sympathy with what they may be getting at indirectly, perhaps there's a risk it draws in too much talent. There's the Banksy quote "The thing I hate the most about advertising is that it attracts all the bright, creative and ambitious young people, leaving us mainly with the slow and self-obsessed to become our artists." It feels a bit self-aggrandizing, but instead of just criticizing people and the stuff they make, ask where the talent is going, and is that a good development?
Touche 7y ago
This criticism seems similar to the criticisms that Bill Maher has leveled in the past (of course Moore has much more understanding of the culture). They both are based on the premise that we must live our entire lives focused on cultural and political issues. That it's somewhat shameful to take a break and rest your mind on something comfortable. It's the atheist equivalent of many religion's focus on suffering as being a virtue. By visiting pleasant worlds in our mind we are not spending enough time focused on progress.
carapace 7y ago
Moore is spot on here, IMO, but there's another dimension in which our current mass obsession with kid's characters is embarrassing: the comic books that make it to the big screen are far from representative of what's available. I started collecting comics ironically a few years ago. I was watching "The Big Bang Theory" and had the thought that I should go buy comic books as a kind of joke. I started going to the local comic book store each week after work on new comics day and dropping ~$50 on 10-12 books. It didn't take me long to realize that comic books today are among the most awesome and mind-blowing stories and art being published in any medium. (I mean, the Internet et. al. has more, but you know what I mean: in physical form the story and art has been reified into something particular and special. A comic book is a physical event. Even the serial nature of the format is part of it. It's just now quite the same to read a graphic novel or a web comic. I don't mean to disparage those formats, I'm just lauding comic books here-and-now.) They have really become an art form far beyond the stereotypical superhero in tights and a cape. (Which is not to say that there are some comics out there that treat the whole super-beings idea in rich and fascinating ways!) Comic books are going through a new Golden Age right now. Go to your local comic book store and ask them about it.
neilobremski 7y ago
There isn't much difference between superheroes and Disney protagonists: inherent and unearned talents followed by lying and abuse of them and then finished up with their (usually powerless) friends reminding them how special they are which fills their egos enough to defeat the antagonist.
rchaud 7y ago
Well, I suppose I should say thanks that an actual auteur of the genre has finally said this. Should a regular person make the same point (although not as articulately), they'd be shushed by the "let people enjoy things" industrial complex. I would have no issue with superhero movies if we lived in the pre-Spiderman (2002) world where comic book franchise products co-existed with other types of cinema compared to dwarfing them in terms of budget and release frequency. That development has sucked all of the oxygen and funding out of other types of films, and has poisoned the well to the extent where studios are too risk-averse to put money behind anything other than a spinoff or reboot of something that already has name recognition.
mnm1 7y ago
It's a self fulfilling prophecy. People are obsessed with super heroes because they are hopeless and helpless to change the society and move forward due to the large forces in society holding us back that can only be changed with collective action. But no collective action happens because, at least in America, people expect one person to rise up and fix everything, to "save the world," as it would be. This is as impossible in the real world as the concept of "saving the world" itself is stupid, childish, selfish, grandiose, and ultimately beyond delusional. Why does the world need saving all the time? It's been going on for millions of years (human populated world) or billions of years (the whole universe) without ever needing saving. Maybe instead of waiting for Superman to come fix our healthcare or inequality or climate or insert any other modern problem, we should try to do something about it ourselves together. Unfortunately, these movies standardize the idea that people working together cannot achieve anything and only super heroes alone or in small groups can. That's completely delusional, the opposite of reality. And this mindset has become the cornerstone of our real society feeding the helplessness that leads to hopelessness that leads to hoping to be "saved" by imaginary children's stories.
dualboot 7y ago
My heroes are folks like Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. I think that any time someone takes entertainment too seriously, they've missed the whole point.
blaesus 7y ago
Superheroes are so...conservative. Nothing ever changes. If you want to change the game then you're probably the villain, who is to be stopped by the superheroes, who don't really have a plan themselves. Batman has huge wealth and advanced technologies and the best way he can come up with to fight crimes is beating the "criminals" up himself, rather than contributing his power to improve the economy (or run for an office to change policies or whatever) to prevent people from having to commit crimes. No wonder there're always more crimes for Batman to fight...
faissaloo 7y ago
Ok boomer

290 points by cmsefton 7y ago

I also think that the everyday super hero, for all purposes is not available in movies any more. What happened to movies like Volcano or Speed?

protomyth 7y ago
Event Films. Even Fast & The Furious are basically low-powered superhero films. We want deeper dramas (so TV) and the price of buy-in for films is pretty damn high. Plus, you need to appeal to US, China, and maybe Europe. High powered stuff works better. Horror seems surprisingly resilient, but that might be the nature of going to a theater. I'm sure the trend will switch again, but I have doubts that some genres will ever return to movie theaters in mass.

deleted 7y ago

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cmsefton 7y ago

FYI, the full interview is available here https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2019/11/moore-on-jerusalem-eternalism-anarchy.html https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2019/11/moore-on-jerusal... EDIT: The relevant quote (although the whole interview is pretty interesting): "I think the impact of superheroes on popular culture is both tremendously embarrassing and not a little worrying. While these characters were originally perfectly suited to stimulating the imaginations of their twelve or thirteen year-old audience, today’s franchised übermenschen, aimed at a supposedly adult audience, seem to be serving some kind of different function, and fulfilling different needs. Primarily, mass-market superhero movies seem to be abetting an audience who do not wish to relinquish their grip on (a) their relatively reassuring childhoods, or (b) the relatively reassuring 20th century. The continuing popularity of these movies to me suggests some kind of deliberate, self-imposed state of emotional arrest, combined with an numbing condition of cultural stasis that can be witnessed in comics, movies, popular music and, indeed, right across the cultural spectrum. The superheroes themselves – largely written and drawn by creators who have never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them, much less the rights of a Jack Kirby or Jerry Siegel or Joe Schuster – would seem to be largely employed as cowardice compensators, perhaps a bit like the handgun on the nightstand. I would also remark that save for a smattering of non-white characters (and non-white creators) these books and these iconic characters are still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race. In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks."

malvosenior 7y ago
This is probably the most astute comment on the current media landscape I've ever seen. Just as Moore says, much of our world is trapped in the 20th century. The media, the philosophy, the people in charge... I once read Baby Boomer culture described as an ugly toad squatting on the rest of society, holding it back. The truth turned out to be a bit different though. Even the younger generations still willingly embrace 20th century life (probably more than they realize). I think social media will finally tip things over into a new era though. The narcissism that is its core feature is also an outgrowth of 20th century individualism and a quest for self actualization. Pushed to its limits, it destroys its participants and society at large. For anyone interested in these topics, I highly recommend The Century Of The Self. It talks about the intersection of psychology, marketing, technology and the generation that grew up with them in the 20th century. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self
- jstewartmobile 7y ago
  sounds like a film version of Christopher Lasch
- ecf 7y ago
  I feel it’s a chicken - egg problem. Are we embracing 20th century life by clinging on to old movie IPs, or are we just constantly being fed the same type of stuff by Studios who’ve found “their formula” for making content with a low risk of flopping, for example.
  - schwartzworld 7y ago
    Por que no los dos?
    - bdamm 7y ago
      Indeed, I am patronizing the indie cinema much more these days. Mainly, because they have actually interesting movies, unlike the bland drivel that being spooned out of Hollywood.

altoidaltoid 7y ago

I actually enjoy anti-hero series such as "The Boys" which runs counter to the MCU

RHSeeger 7y ago
I enjoyed The Boys too. That being said, part of why I watch super movies/shows is to enjoy the escape, to see people being ... more. I can see people being assholes anywhere, so a story that focuses around that needs to be significantly better than one that doesn't for me to enjoy it.
PopeDotNinja 7y ago
I enjoyed that show quite a bit. It's fun to see supers w/ both light & dark sides.
- protomyth 7y ago
  I haven't watched the show, but as I remember it, the light side was pretty much absent from the comics. I assume they heavily deviated from the comics? I'll know when its gone too far when they make "Crossed" into a TV series.
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  If you enjoyed The Karate Kid when you were younger, I would recommend Cobra Kai. It's a very good expression of the idea that everyone is the hero of their own story; everyone thinks they're the good guy, and yet everyone is a jerk in their own special way.
jimbokun 7y ago
I think this is more the kind of thing Moore is criticizing. Is "The Boys" really deep and insightful look at human nature, or just continuing to indulge in material meant for kids with more violence and nudity to make you feel more grown up while watching it? I love comic books by the way. But it's meant as simple escapist pleasure where you know at the end the good guys win. Making them anti-heroes and upping the "transgressive" content while keeping all hte other tropes doesn't automatically make it deep art.

RHSeeger 7y ago

Admittedly, this is Martin Scorsese instead of Moore, but.... > It isn't the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being. I'm in my late 40s, and I teared up when during the death scene in the most recent movie. And again during the scene with his daughter, talking about burgers. If I had been watching it at home alone, I would probably have been outright crying, thinking about how I miss my own father. Just because the movies don't speak to everyone doesn't mean they don't speak to anyone. I feel like there's an awful lot of people out there that think they're better than everyone else because they're more limited in what they can understand. That seems backwards.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
I'm right beside you. It spoke to me due to experiences, emotions, and fears about my own responsibilities I didn't have as a teenager.
simonh 7y ago
Romanoff and Banner. Stark and Peter Parker. Thanos and Gamorra. Gamorra and Nebula. There are plenty of interesting relationships there.
- puranjay 7y ago
  I find the non-romantic relationships to be far more interesting. Romanoff and Captain America, for instance. Male-female friendships on screen are rare, especially when both the man and woman are attractive and the woman fills the "temptress" role outside of the friendship.
  - simonh 7y ago
    None of my examples are romantic. Notwithstanding a Stark ‘hide the Zuchini’ gag, that’s not how I read their relationship.
jszymborski 7y ago
I'm a person within the superhero demo who has seen a couple of Marvel movies recommended to me, and have not connected to them at all. That being said, they certainly mean a lot to a lot of people, and it elicits a feeling they seek out, which is enough to call it art in my books. I may not enjoy the films, but I'll always be interested in getting to know why people feel as strongly as they do about it, instead of dismissing it because it isn't mutual. EDIT: This is more relevant re: the Scorsese quote. Alan Moore obviously hasn't discounted them as art.

RHSeeger 7y ago

> Primarily, mass-market superhero movies seem to be abetting an audience who do not wish to relinquish their grip on (a) their relatively reassuring childhoods, or (b) the relatively reassuring 20th century. Or, you know, sometimes we just like a little escape-ism. It's no different than reading a good sci-fi/fantasy book where the hero(es) win in the end. It's fun. Not everything needs to be a deep exploration of our intellectual and emotional destitution, not for everyone.

jrochkind1 7y ago
The particular common themes and tropes used for escape-ism are not irrelevant to understanding the cultural context. Superhero stuff obviously isn't the only kind of fiction that can be used to get a little escape-ism, and fiction isn't even the only way to find a little escape-ism, but superhero movies are a currently especially popular one, and it is not silly to look at the cultural resonances of why that might be.
- chimprich 7y ago
  > superhero movies are a currently especially popular one Is this really a new thing? As far as I can tell, the trope of the superhero has been wildly popular throughout cultural history. Achilles, Thor, Arthur, and so on.
  - peterwwillis 7y ago
    When was the last time in the past couple centuries that people were flocking to dozens of plays about Nordic and Greek heroes for 15 years straight?
    - Touche 7y ago
      Cowboy movies (westerns) and plays were the superhero movies of the past couple centuries, until they faded out (from mass popularity) in the 1970s or so.

papito 7y ago

In our post-shame, fact-resistant world, maybe we should recalibrate what a superhero is. Perhaps it's someone who values public good over personal profit, and someone who doesn't compromise their principles in the face of trolling and smearing. Children should be looking up to THAT, not being able to punch through walls. The bar is pretty low.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
But superheroes provide convenient excuses why we don't do that: they're super. Oh sure, you can argue that some of them don't have magic powers, like Batman and Ironman, but that's ignoring super-wealth (and impossible engineering). What we need is a superhero who's just a guy with a crappy office job who wants to make the world a better place, and his only tools are his sense of justice and a costume he bought at a garage sale. Someone so utterly unremarkable that they just use their regular name as their superhero name. That's right, I'm saying we need an Arthur movie. ...more realistically, I think we could use more stories about regular people who made a difference just by be being good people.
- yyx 7y ago
  Reminds me of "Super" (2010) by James Gunn https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1512235/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1512235/
- EpicEng 7y ago
  >...more realistically, I think we could use more stories about regular people who made a difference just by be being good people. Plenty of those exist, but they scratch a different itch. People can enjoy both.
- Krasnol 7y ago
  How about a hoodie and we all watch Mr. Robot?
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > ...more realistically, I think we could use more stories about regular people who made a difference just by be being good people. TNG-era Star Trek had a lot of that. Sure, the protagonists were not regular people, but they also didn't have superpowers. Their specialness served primarily to ensure they had lots of problems thrown at them, problems they very often solved through the strength of their character (and the character of the organization backing them), instead of trickery or violence. I miss that in today's entertainment.

Zelphyr 7y ago

I have to agree with Scorsese here. I don't remember the last superhero movie I saw where I didn't walk out with a yawn. They're just so predictable. Everyday guy or gal gets bestowed with or discovers powers of some sort and cut to blowing a bunch of stuff up. End credits with some teaser afterwards. And that's just the first of what will inevitably be many more movies culminating in blowing even bigger things up (has any of them gotten to the point of blowing up a whole planet yet?) If I'm being fair, this predictability problem is pretty rampant in Hollywood. I rewatched Pulp Fiction recently and I remember seeing it for the first time and being blown away. It was anything but predictable. It was hilarious and disturbing at the same time but, most of all, it was creative. To my mind, there's little true creativity to movies anymore.

Softcadbury 7y ago
You should definitely consider korean movies (Parasite, Train to Busan, The Handmaiden, Memories of Murder, The Wailing, I Saw the Devil, ...)
- moufestaphio 7y ago
  It's mandatory I mention: Old Boy. But you're right, there are a lot of great Korean movies. A few more of my favourites are: - New World - Welcome to Dongmakgol
  - clairity 7y ago
    yes! i recently saw old boy for the first time. disturbing, thought-provoking, well-made, well-acted, emotional, tense, even funny at times, but oh-so-disturbing.
inertiatic 7y ago
Why do you have to be surprised by your entertainment? You re-watched a movie which you found again enjoyable despite being a predictable experience now. There are other metrics on which do judge entertainment or even art.

jrochkind1 7y ago

This is a serious mic-drop line that had my jaw hanging open: > In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks. Super heroes capes and masks as inspired by KKK hoods? I don't think it was probably intentional/conscious in the minds of those who originated it, and I don't think Moore necessarily means it was either... but it's definitely an interesting cultural collective unconsciousness sort of lineage.

myself248 7y ago
I'd point to that right alongside the recent obsession with bacon as a subtle anti-Jewish anti-Muslim sentiment. Certainly plenty of folks do just like the taste of the stuff, but I think often those folks are along for the ride on the coattails of a dog-whistle. If you're someone whose faith commands that you not go near swine of any sort, a catalog with several pages of bacon-themed products might start to feel like it was written with someone else in mind...
- jbigelow76 7y ago
  That's why I'm always leery of ordering shrimp cocktail when having dinner with my Jewish friends. - signed, the world's most passive aggressive dinner companion
- magashna 7y ago
  Why can't a BLT just be a BLT? Seems like a reach.
  - jrochkind1 7y ago
    Pretty positive the person you are replying to is being sarcastic and/or trolling, and agrees with you.
- beart 7y ago
  Or just a clever marketing campaign by the pork industry...

sharadov 7y ago

I enjoy deep philosophical exploratory stuff and at the same time love the quick respite that a movie like John Wick or a X-men provides. To each his own.

sethammons 7y ago

> [Marvel movies are] theme parks. It isn't the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being. --Martin Scorsese I find so much wrong with that view. Scorsese thinks they should be "something other than cinema." Cinema is just movies. There are all kinds of flavors. I like to just tune out and enjoy the ride on some movies, and some talk to the depths of the human condition. I find lots of things relatable in the Marvel movies. Loss of loved ones, awkward social interactions, elbow jabbing at friends. When I'm searching for something to watch, I tend to go with Rotten Tomato scores as a valuable data point. One very valuable data point is high critics score and low audience score. Critics want everything to be psychological experiences, but I think a lot of them fail to realize that some movies will ring closer to home for some vs others. An example is Joker. Not your typical comic book movie at all. With a very limited data set, I've seen people who have experienced the kind of life that Arthur experiences in that movie and it hits too close to home. Meanwhile, others who can't conceive of that as a reality dismiss the movie. Different films speak to different people.

jstewartmobile 7y ago

These movies--including V--are violent power fantasies for people without agency. This is "anime was a mistake" tier clarity on Alan Moore's behalf. Good on him!

hardwaregeek 7y ago

I have a theory that this obsession with superheros is part of a greater obsession with continuity. Whether it's TV shows or cinematic universes, people crave a sense of continuity in their narrative. Right now there's a lack of continuity, a lack of semantic cohesion within the world. Values have disintegrated. Stuff that would have been otherwise meaningful, whether that be working class life, or the institution of the presidency or the guarantees of a college degree, are now meaningless or less meaningful.

Izkata 7y ago
> I have a theory that this obsession with superheros is part of a greater obsession with continuity. Whether it's TV shows or cinematic universes, people crave a sense of continuity in their narrative. I have a strong suspicion this part is correct, but that most are unaware of it. Kind of a "you don't miss what you never had" situation. Not so sure about the rest. Aside from realizing it about myself several years ago, here's some evidence: * Up above, someone mentioned a couple of failed cinematic universes [0]: Warner/DC and Universal's Monster Universe. * No one has mentioned a second successful one: The Conjuring Universe. * The Conjuring Universe did one of the exact same things that the MCU did, that the failed ones did not: Separate films drawn together. * The MCU's first films were completely standalone, just sharing things like Coulson and Fury as easter eggs, and only later drawn together into the same universe. Until Avengers, it was entirely possible for the casual moviegoer to miss this, creating a low barrier to entry - you didn't have to know the previous film, as you would a sequel. Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America could each draw in a different audience. * The first "universe" film in the Conjuring, Annabelle, was designed to work standalone instead of as a sequel, same as the first MCU films. Like the MCU, they included callbacks that fans could catch, but nothing important that broke the movie's flow. Again, low barrier to entry for moviegoers who are used to standalone films and don't want to commit themselves to a longer series. * On the flipside, DC and Monster both announced up front they were creating a cinematic universe, before the first movies were even out. This created a high barrier to entry for casual moviegoers - they knew up front they'd have to see further movies to get the full story. I think that's the big key, capturing the casual moviegoers with seemingly standalone films, then holding their attention with extended continuity only after they're invested. It's really easy to go see a second movie if you'd already seen the first. Conjuring and MCU both did that well, without creating an initial commitment by announcing multiple films. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21577536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21577536

PaulHoule 7y ago

Funny that the most durable stories of all time (Gilgamesh, Greek Myths, Norse Myths, the Bible) are all basically superhero stories.

cbron 7y ago
Mythology has served various purposes over the course of human history. This is referring specifically to modern superhero culture which may be derived from mythology but isn't comparable to it.
- Forge36 7y ago
  Maybe we've just replaced gods with fictional stories? I think the two can still be talked about (HBO is making American Gods about mythology as written and updated by Neil Gaiman)
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Ok so persuade us - that's a very big statement to make there
  - cbron 7y ago
    religion != entertainment
    - PaulHoule 7y ago
      Depends. The first two seasons of Pretty Cure looked like religious education to me. The first season was about Shinto and the second about Confucianism. The series systematically worked through about how you would feel about your place, your town, nature, the people around you, history, work, community, etc.
    - marcosdumay 7y ago
      That statement is not as obvious as it seems at first. Cinema in particular is way more similar to temple sermons than it seems at first.

olivierlacan 7y ago

There's no timelier follow up to Alan Moore's stance on superhero culture than Damon Lindelof's Watchmen which is currently in the middle of its first (and likely only) season run on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/watchmen https://www.hbo.com/watchmen It's not only a high-flying feat of television writing, acting, and directing. It's something Moore will likely never endorse or even see (he's apparently denounced any adaptation/continuation of his work) and yet embodies the spirit of Watchmen better than anything I've ever seen in the genre. Lindelof and Chernobyl creator Craig Mazin records an hourlong podcast (https://www.hbo.com/watchmen/watchmen-listen-to-official-podcast https://www.hbo.com/watchmen/watchmen-listen-to-official-pod...) for HBO talking about the genesis of show, its relationship with the Zach Snyder movie (respect for the form, detachment from the execution and alterations), and the very subject of this BBC piece: people who wear masks to enact vigilante justice are and should be concerning. The parallels between 1985 and 2019 malaise, worldwide unrest, and that awful feeling that something's not quite right with the way the world is running are incredible well capture by the show. Whether you've read the graphic novel or not, I can't recommend watching HBO's Watchmen enough. Even if you dismiss it as an unworthy heir to Moore and Gibbon's work, you will without a doubt be blown away by the show and how impeccably crafted it is. For detail-hungry folks, the show's writing staff is release ancillary material that expands on the world (re)building within the show at https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia. Obviously don't read this before you watch each specific episode. PS: I found the premise of the Amazon's The Boys interesting but beyond some impressive sequences and shocking twists, the show's writing is a bit too cynically shallow for its own good. There's not much commentary beyond the rottenness of (almost) every character in the show and that ends up feeling a little too much of one-note throughout the whole season.

beart 7y ago
Also - the music in Watchmen is incredible and really sets the tone.
- olivierlacan 7y ago
  Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross definitely deliver the goods. It kind of baffles me how little I see this show discussed. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/trent-reznor-atticus-watchmen-soundtrack-901981/ https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/trent-reznor-a...

irrational 7y ago

I love the current superhero movies. I'd be worried about this backlash from people like Moore and Scorsese if it wasn't for the fact that these movies are pulling in around a billion dollars on average. Disney is in it for the money and as long as the movies are pulling in the $ they will keep making them.

hirundo 7y ago

Co-opting Thor as a superhero was a clear commentary by the writers on how superheros and theism are intertwined. The most popular supers of our cultural imagination are Jehovah, Muhammad, Buddha, et al. So this is no sort of new phenomenon, but a secular reinvention of an ancient one. Apparently there is a deep psychological need for the great Father or Mother, and superheros are a way that modern markets attempt to fulfill it. Or to sedate it.

tracer4201 7y ago

Hollywood is self serving. Supposedly they come off as liberals, but how many superhero movies are there where the world isn’t being saved by a white, American man? I mean - Arabs are typically terrorists or something along those lines in these movies. We want to depict a scene shot in Mexico? Change the colors to yellowish/orangish. Russians or East European characters? Typically mafia. As much as many of these celebrities supposedly care about immigrants, diversity, inclusivity - how often is that shown on film? Oh right - it really isn’t unless the studios are convinced they can monetize it.

miguelmota 7y ago

Agree, Marvel characters are narcissistic elitists that in every movie seems as if they like destroying civilian cities for things that they caused themselves. The MCU movies are overdone but Disney knows that it’s like crack for kids and teenagers.

pnw_hazor 7y ago
The MCU format is also acceptable in China. That's what really matters the most to Disney.

Krasnol 7y ago

I tried to get into Watchman and I couldn't...found it too embarrassing. I do get what he wanted to do through the story but the dresses and die dialogues are as cringe worthy as the rest of the genre.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
I'm not going to defend Alan Moore, weird wizard who worships a snake god as he is, but the Watchman movie isn't his baby. He's only put his name behind the graphic novel, which you might find much less cringy.

tlholaday 7y ago

Was he asked about James Bond movies?

Vysero 7y ago

They aren't meant to be anything more than a quick thrill. They are literally the equivalent of a theme park ride and that's the whole point. Contrary to popular belief not everything you do in life needs to be mind blowing and life changing. Sometimes you just need to sit back and enjoy the ride. "Life is a playground or nothing." -Jaco Van Dormael

ergothus 7y ago

Something I've noticed in recent superhero movies is the idea that: * For all the talk about "heart", superheroes are extraordinary by some aspect the rest of us can't expect to get * Yet supervillains are often just normal people who got too pissed off. The villains in Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Iron Man 3, Spider Man: Far From Home, Captain America: Civil War, Ant-Man, etc are just people that got ticked off. We have to count on others to be superheroes, but we're all one bad day from becoming supervillains.

jmull 7y ago

I can't imagine worrying about Alan Moore's (or Scorsese's) narrow opinions when choosing entertainment. For one thing, I think Moore is clearly wrong about what adults typically get out of superhero movies. I think it's entertainment, and not some kind of deeper emotional experience. Put it this way: if people generally need movies for meaningful emotional experiences, there are some profound problems in our society that goes far beyond cinema. It really is OK, and not a sign of some deficiency, that people are making and enjoying well-made, epic action/fantasy films. Anyway, when I see something like this: > He says superheroes are written and drawn by people who've never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them - saying they appear "to be largely employed as cowardice compensators". I think he's really struggling with understanding the perspective of people who don't see the world or think of it the way he does.

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leftyted 7y ago
I think it is a "deeper emotional experience". But I'm skeptical that this is anything new. Today we (or at least me and Alan Moore) look back at the 60s and 70s and think "wow a movie like Easy Rider was a hit. How times have changed". Maybe. But maybe we just remember the hits from 40 years ago that were actually good. And maybe 40 years from now we'll remember a handful of good movies made today that did well in the box office but we'll forget all the junk. Part of me does think that big movies today are essentially philistine. But it's also true that movies are cheaper to make than ever. And plenty of wonderful movies are being made, so I find myself unable to get too sad about our situation. There's more interesting movies coming out than I have time to watch, so if I was complaining, I'd be complaining that "other people don't have the same taste as me," which seems childish. > Put it this way: if people generally need movies for meaningful emotional experiences, there are some profound problems in our society that goes far beyond cinema. I think you're deeply wrong. People experience "meaningful emotional experiences" via narrative, fictional or not. This has always been the case and there's no reason to assume it will ever not be the case. Movies are just another narrative form.
pixelbath 7y ago

tialaramex 7y ago

Lots of people have been exposed to Watchmen - his book about masks (vigilantes, no more "super" powered than the hero of any Hollywood movie they won't die if shot but they can't fly), but he'd also by that point written Miracleman - which is about supers (whose identity may not even be a secret, since they are to varying extent god-like and it hardly matters). In both cases Moore covered all the ground popular culture still thinks is radical and interesting today and went beyond it - thirty years ago. Miracleman in particular has a lot of stuff about abuse of power, the title character has been brain-washed basically by the government, so as to have a tame superhero who can be sent out to do whatever they want. Once he is free and understands what's going on he doesn't beat up muggers, or even corrupt politicians, he destroys _capitalism_ and remakes the whole world as a utopia. Moore was done with the book at that point. And so here we are in 2019 and people haven't moved on to even where Moore was in the 1980s, that's got to be fairly frustrating.

Noos 7y ago

Actually I'd argue modern superhero culture is a rebuttal to the kind of ponderous dreck Moore and the rest of the British invasion put out. A reaction against the constant need to politicize and comment on a genre as opposed to simply explore it. Sort of the reason why Manga is so popular is that it doesn't focus heavily on political themes; My Hero Academia is really just about the superheroes.

gimmeThaBeet 7y ago

I find Moore's criticisms a little odd. Imo part of what has made Moore's work so notable is that it turns the genre sideways, or obviously deals with subjects in a much more mature way than an audience is used to seeing. The subversion doesn't work if there's nothing to undermine. There's things like The Killing Joke that are sort of things unto themselves, but I feel without the context of 'normal' superhero stuff, you lose quite a bit of the venom in like Watchmen or like The Boys (although it's Ennis, they're in the same realm). But I can admit some sympathy with what they may be getting at indirectly, perhaps there's a risk it draws in too much talent. There's the Banksy quote "The thing I hate the most about advertising is that it attracts all the bright, creative and ambitious young people, leaving us mainly with the slow and self-obsessed to become our artists." It feels a bit self-aggrandizing, but instead of just criticizing people and the stuff they make, ask where the talent is going, and is that a good development?

Touche 7y ago

This criticism seems similar to the criticisms that Bill Maher has leveled in the past (of course Moore has much more understanding of the culture). They both are based on the premise that we must live our entire lives focused on cultural and political issues. That it's somewhat shameful to take a break and rest your mind on something comfortable. It's the atheist equivalent of many religion's focus on suffering as being a virtue. By visiting pleasant worlds in our mind we are not spending enough time focused on progress.

carapace 7y ago

Moore is spot on here, IMO, but there's another dimension in which our current mass obsession with kid's characters is embarrassing: the comic books that make it to the big screen are far from representative of what's available. I started collecting comics ironically a few years ago. I was watching "The Big Bang Theory" and had the thought that I should go buy comic books as a kind of joke. I started going to the local comic book store each week after work on new comics day and dropping ~$50 on 10-12 books. It didn't take me long to realize that comic books today are among the most awesome and mind-blowing stories and art being published in any medium. (I mean, the Internet et. al. has more, but you know what I mean: in physical form the story and art has been reified into something particular and special. A comic book is a physical event. Even the serial nature of the format is part of it. It's just now quite the same to read a graphic novel or a web comic. I don't mean to disparage those formats, I'm just lauding comic books here-and-now.) They have really become an art form far beyond the stereotypical superhero in tights and a cape. (Which is not to say that there are some comics out there that treat the whole super-beings idea in rich and fascinating ways!) Comic books are going through a new Golden Age right now. Go to your local comic book store and ask them about it.

neilobremski 7y ago

There isn't much difference between superheroes and Disney protagonists: inherent and unearned talents followed by lying and abuse of them and then finished up with their (usually powerless) friends reminding them how special they are which fills their egos enough to defeat the antagonist.

rchaud 7y ago

Well, I suppose I should say thanks that an actual auteur of the genre has finally said this. Should a regular person make the same point (although not as articulately), they'd be shushed by the "let people enjoy things" industrial complex. I would have no issue with superhero movies if we lived in the pre-Spiderman (2002) world where comic book franchise products co-existed with other types of cinema compared to dwarfing them in terms of budget and release frequency. That development has sucked all of the oxygen and funding out of other types of films, and has poisoned the well to the extent where studios are too risk-averse to put money behind anything other than a spinoff or reboot of something that already has name recognition.

mnm1 7y ago

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. People are obsessed with super heroes because they are hopeless and helpless to change the society and move forward due to the large forces in society holding us back that can only be changed with collective action. But no collective action happens because, at least in America, people expect one person to rise up and fix everything, to "save the world," as it would be. This is as impossible in the real world as the concept of "saving the world" itself is stupid, childish, selfish, grandiose, and ultimately beyond delusional. Why does the world need saving all the time? It's been going on for millions of years (human populated world) or billions of years (the whole universe) without ever needing saving. Maybe instead of waiting for Superman to come fix our healthcare or inequality or climate or insert any other modern problem, we should try to do something about it ourselves together. Unfortunately, these movies standardize the idea that people working together cannot achieve anything and only super heroes alone or in small groups can. That's completely delusional, the opposite of reality. And this mindset has become the cornerstone of our real society feeding the helplessness that leads to hopelessness that leads to hoping to be "saved" by imaginary children's stories.

dualboot 7y ago

My heroes are folks like Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. I think that any time someone takes entertainment too seriously, they've missed the whole point.

blaesus 7y ago

Superheroes are so...conservative. Nothing ever changes. If you want to change the game then you're probably the villain, who is to be stopped by the superheroes, who don't really have a plan themselves. Batman has huge wealth and advanced technologies and the best way he can come up with to fight crimes is beating the "criminals" up himself, rather than contributing his power to improve the economy (or run for an office to change policies or whatever) to prevent people from having to commit crimes. No wonder there're always more crimes for Batman to fight...

faissaloo 7y ago

Ok boomer