8 ms·

Forbidden in germany. There is literally a law, which basically says: everyone needs to have and is allowed to have a banking account.

odiroot 7y ago
In Sparkassen. Deutsche Bank, Commerzbank, DKB, etc can easily reject you.
jhrmnn 7y ago
I think it is en EU-wide regulation. https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-finance/consumer-finance-and-payments/retail-financial-services/access-bank-accounts_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-...
noobermin 7y ago
Which further highlights how many "problems" that tech people in the US have tried to solve (transit->uber, various health care start-ups, etc) are essentially due to the failure of the US state to function properly or even focus on the right thing.
- mola 7y ago
  Yup, it seems US citizens pay crazy amount of hidden tax because of inefficiencies caused by fanatical anti government propaganda. This isn't only about freedom it's about keeping power in certain hands. Too bad it's being exported everywhere
  - hoseja 7y ago
    I suspect there's also a healthy dose of not less fanatical social Darwinism thrown in there.
  - pluma 7y ago
    Just like how most public healthcare proposals in the US while technically raising taxes would end up leaving the individual with a much lower financial burden because of the ridiculous amounts of money Americans pay for healthcare and medication.
    - merpnderp 7y ago
      This belief that the US is capable of implementing a socialized system in an affordable manner seems kind of fanaticism given the incredible amount of evidence to the contrary.
      - vkou 7y ago
        Whereas the belief that the US is capable of implementing a non-socialized system in an affordable manner is so hilariously contrary to the evidence, that it makes faith in Santa Claus seem well-grounded.
        turk73 7y ago
        I feel the same way about the socialized version, honestly. I work in big healthcare. There's no way the government is going to pull this off. No way. We might better let it collapse than to suffer a doubling of our Federal income tax, because that is what is on the table there. And that money won't go into providing better healthcare, it will instead go to bailing out the $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. It won't work out the way you think, they are already several steps ahead of the people on the way they intend to spend the added largesse and it's not on us.
      - salawat 7y ago
        Keep in mind the United States only fails so spectacularly at socialized system implementation because the power of the socialized service to negotiate is defanged to prop up the excesses of the private sector. Let the government flex its muscles without artificial constraint, and watch how fast the market has to rein itself in to remain competitive. The reason Medicare is loathed, is because Medicare has a mandate to not excessively spend, and it's pricing is actually determined by people with the public interest in mind first and foremost, as well as having its pricing accessible as a matter of public record instead of being hidden away in a locked filing cabinet somewhere. The combination of those two factors are a powerful tool for shaping an industry away from "make as much money as possible while providing a service" to "provide as much service as possible while the money holds out". It is a subtle, yet important difference.
  - VvR-Ox 7y ago
    +1 for this. When working in Germany I talked to citizens who told me their state is also heading that direction. More things are denationalized so private companies now have the responsibility but also the revenue (like "Autobahn" or some time ago the post). When I understand it correctly those where initially financed by public money so it seems like this investment is now being absorbed by the companies overtaking the business. Accordingly there are strong voices who demand less control of the economy by the government. I think they had a good system running (look at the numbers) and now they destroy that by adopting the ideas of the US-system.
    - Arubis 7y ago
      The flippant-yet-accurate description I've heard of this is "socialized losses, privatized profits".
      - hedora 7y ago
        I’ve heard, “public risk, private profits”. That ends up including things like utilities, but also most of the US automotive industry, banks, etc. (It also requires the listener to have an understanding of expected value, and other basic statistics.) “socialized losses, private profits” seems to include any government spending that benefits society, such as public ownership and funding of roads, but private shipping companies (and all the industries that rely on them) profiting from their existence.
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    > ...fanatical anti government propaganda. Jim Crow, Watergate, Catholic priest abuse scandals, regulatory failure in 2008, too big to fail, gerrymandering, police involved shootings, Hurricane Katrina flooding, Keystone Pipeline leaks, ... And, yes, it happens in local markets too: taxi medallion systems, overzealous zoning, local corruption, running Amazon out of Queens, and so on. We could call skepticism fanatical, but that dismisses some pretty substantive history and current events regarding government corruption and incompetence.
    - justinclift 7y ago
      Maybe it's time for an update to Hanlon's razor? ;) Never attribute to incompetence that which can be adequately explained by corruption.
      - hedora 7y ago
        It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. -Upton Sinclair
        justinclift 7y ago
        Yeah, similar. ;)
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    Obama was the direct opposite of fantastically anti government and this deplatforming peaked under him. This isn’t about anti government sentiment, it’s about pro abuse of government sentiment to use the force of law to push your morality on others. At least unless you weirdly classify Obama as anti government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point
    - hedora 7y ago
      Read up on corporatism. It describes the overlap of moderate Democratic and moderate Republican ideology pretty well. It is a shortening of “corporate fascism”, and is the idea that the government exists to protect the economy, which is best done by strengthening existing power structures that power the current economic system. Therefore the government should defer to corporations whenever possible.
      - takeda 7y ago
        It's also showing up in presidential campaign. Biden is known corporate Democrat. He is still leading in the polls, but losing it. The recent Ukraine revelations also didn't help and looks like Warren is taking over. Out of nowhere 3 new "moderate" candidates appeared, and also Harris got a large donation.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  Another way to put that is that tech people, being tech people, try to solve fundamentally political or social problems by throwing technology at them. And so far it pretty much never works out, unsurprisingly, since it turns out not all problems can be solved with a website.
  - ClumsyPilot 7y ago
    Other way of putting it: tech people do their job. I mean, if an engineer is assigned to a project, what else is he/she meant to do?
- tripzilch 7y ago
  The failure of these people to fix their state, you mean. Instead choosing for the easier and more profitable option of going into tech and the road paved with good intentions. You can build gigantic multinational corporations, disrupt all kinds of industries, change significant parts of people's lives with tech all written with code and rules and regulations but somehow making a well-functioning country is too hard, even when there's well-working smaller prototypes available to learn from.
weinzierl 7y ago
This is true and from what I understand it is available to any EU citizen. The technical term is "Jedermann-Konto" which means "account for everyone". The German Wikipedia article has a lot to say about this topic[1] but unfortunately I didn't find any information in English on it. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedermann-Konto https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedermann-Konto
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  https://www.bafin.de/EN/Verbraucher/Bank/Produkte/Basiskonto/basiskonto_node_en.html https://www.bafin.de/EN/Verbraucher/Bank/Produkte/Basiskonto... is in English.
egeozcan 7y ago
I'm living in Germany, the bank account of my neighbor in Commerzbank was closed because he wrote "hooker money" in description when sending money to one of his friends. At least that's what we believe because they refused to explain why. He could easily open another account in Volksbank and according to him, when the new account manager asked and learned why his previous account was closed, they had a pretty good laugh. I used to get "funny" too when sending money through PayPal to friends, never again.
- petre 7y ago
  The financial industry has no sense of humor.
- alias_neo 7y ago
  I've been with my bank for 15+ years. One time I sent a payment of several hundred £s to a friend who's paid my share of a holiday when booking. In the description I put "fun times". I had a call from my bank asking me to explain the payment the next day. I've never been called before nor since that. It certainly feels like they're a bit touchy about certain references.
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    At that moment you should have made it clear that it isn't his business at all to disincenitivise future bad behavior. Even as a lazy person I probably would have switched banks.
    - alias_neo 7y ago
      In hindsight, I probably should have switched banks, but ~~15+ years ago~~ I was young enough that it mattered very little to my sense of principle. They've otherwise been quite reliable since so jumping ship now would almost be asking for trouble. Edit: It wasnt 15 years ago this happened, it was perhaps a decade. I'd already been a customer for some time.
    - nothrabannosir 7y ago
craydandy 7y ago
Might be EU-thing, as the same applies to Finland. Banks also must provide basic payment card, and online banking for everyone. https://www.finanssivalvonta.fi/en/Consumer-protection/questions-and-answers/banking-services/basic-banking-services/ https://www.finanssivalvonta.fi/en/Consumer-protection/quest...
hsailor 7y ago
A jedermann Konto or Basiskonto refers only to a personal account. If a client uses this account for commercial activities (eg receiving payments in the said industry), the bank has every right to close the account.
- yati 7y ago
  So I can't use my personal account to receive salaries? Does the bank have to know/care about the details my profession?
  - odiroot 7y ago
    You can if you're employed by another entity. You cannot use the same account to run a business.
  - ptaipale 7y ago
    Depends on what your "salary" is. In the EU, the banks are obligated to find out where you get your money. And they have an obligation to close your account if they don't get satisfactory answers. "Know your customer". My bank has recently started to ask customers to clarify transfers, and even shoot and send some video of themselves, smiling, and explaining things. I haven't got that myself yet but several colleagues have. I'm thinking I should change banks, but am unsure if any other bank is any better, because this is the result of government regulation. The EU laws to fight money laundering are in conflict with national laws for privacy. And because laws for money laundering impact tax revenue, they will triumph over privacy.
    - Ralfp 7y ago
      In EU there is an anti-money laundering directive, but it’s mostly up to member countries how they’ll implement it. As usual some countries implemented it reasonably while others didn’t.
      - rusk 7y ago
        There are new stricter rules coming in 2020, which is, some theorise, a major motivation behind brexit ...
Random_ernest 7y ago
I know several people that had their account closed in germany for perfectly legal things. The Bank calls it: Geschäftsschädigendes Verhalten. Stuff like gambling (which is legal in germany),or being iranian (which I suppose is legal too)
turk73 7y ago
We didn't use to need a law until leftists started using these techniques against people they don't like. Meanwhile, these same hypocrites complain about their vaunted "muh marijuana" getting de-banked or un-banked or whatever non-entit-ification happens. Meanwhile, I am pissed when a JP Morgan says a gun shop can't have a bank account because they don't approve of the gun industry even though gun ownership is a Constitutionally protected. This is akin to saying JP Morgan doesn't want us to vote or have due process.

odiroot 7y ago

In Sparkassen. Deutsche Bank, Commerzbank, DKB, etc can easily reject you.

jhrmnn 7y ago

I think it is en EU-wide regulation. https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-finance/consumer-finance-and-payments/retail-financial-services/access-bank-accounts_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/banking-and-...

noobermin 7y ago

Which further highlights how many "problems" that tech people in the US have tried to solve (transit->uber, various health care start-ups, etc) are essentially due to the failure of the US state to function properly or even focus on the right thing.

mola 7y ago
Yup, it seems US citizens pay crazy amount of hidden tax because of inefficiencies caused by fanatical anti government propaganda. This isn't only about freedom it's about keeping power in certain hands. Too bad it's being exported everywhere
- hoseja 7y ago
  I suspect there's also a healthy dose of not less fanatical social Darwinism thrown in there.
- pluma 7y ago
  Just like how most public healthcare proposals in the US while technically raising taxes would end up leaving the individual with a much lower financial burden because of the ridiculous amounts of money Americans pay for healthcare and medication.
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    This belief that the US is capable of implementing a socialized system in an affordable manner seems kind of fanaticism given the incredible amount of evidence to the contrary.
    - vkou 7y ago
      Whereas the belief that the US is capable of implementing a non-socialized system in an affordable manner is so hilariously contrary to the evidence, that it makes faith in Santa Claus seem well-grounded.
      - turk73 7y ago
        I feel the same way about the socialized version, honestly. I work in big healthcare. There's no way the government is going to pull this off. No way. We might better let it collapse than to suffer a doubling of our Federal income tax, because that is what is on the table there. And that money won't go into providing better healthcare, it will instead go to bailing out the $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. It won't work out the way you think, they are already several steps ahead of the people on the way they intend to spend the added largesse and it's not on us.
    - salawat 7y ago
      Keep in mind the United States only fails so spectacularly at socialized system implementation because the power of the socialized service to negotiate is defanged to prop up the excesses of the private sector. Let the government flex its muscles without artificial constraint, and watch how fast the market has to rein itself in to remain competitive. The reason Medicare is loathed, is because Medicare has a mandate to not excessively spend, and it's pricing is actually determined by people with the public interest in mind first and foremost, as well as having its pricing accessible as a matter of public record instead of being hidden away in a locked filing cabinet somewhere. The combination of those two factors are a powerful tool for shaping an industry away from "make as much money as possible while providing a service" to "provide as much service as possible while the money holds out". It is a subtle, yet important difference.
- VvR-Ox 7y ago
  +1 for this. When working in Germany I talked to citizens who told me their state is also heading that direction. More things are denationalized so private companies now have the responsibility but also the revenue (like "Autobahn" or some time ago the post). When I understand it correctly those where initially financed by public money so it seems like this investment is now being absorbed by the companies overtaking the business. Accordingly there are strong voices who demand less control of the economy by the government. I think they had a good system running (look at the numbers) and now they destroy that by adopting the ideas of the US-system.
  - Arubis 7y ago
    The flippant-yet-accurate description I've heard of this is "socialized losses, privatized profits".
    - hedora 7y ago
      I’ve heard, “public risk, private profits”. That ends up including things like utilities, but also most of the US automotive industry, banks, etc. (It also requires the listener to have an understanding of expected value, and other basic statistics.) “socialized losses, private profits” seems to include any government spending that benefits society, such as public ownership and funding of roads, but private shipping companies (and all the industries that rely on them) profiting from their existence.
- humanrebar 7y ago
  > ...fanatical anti government propaganda. Jim Crow, Watergate, Catholic priest abuse scandals, regulatory failure in 2008, too big to fail, gerrymandering, police involved shootings, Hurricane Katrina flooding, Keystone Pipeline leaks, ... And, yes, it happens in local markets too: taxi medallion systems, overzealous zoning, local corruption, running Amazon out of Queens, and so on. We could call skepticism fanatical, but that dismisses some pretty substantive history and current events regarding government corruption and incompetence.
  - justinclift 7y ago
    Maybe it's time for an update to Hanlon's razor? ;) Never attribute to incompetence that which can be adequately explained by corruption.
    - hedora 7y ago
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. -Upton Sinclair
      - justinclift 7y ago
        Yeah, similar. ;)
- merpnderp 7y ago
  Obama was the direct opposite of fantastically anti government and this deplatforming peaked under him. This isn’t about anti government sentiment, it’s about pro abuse of government sentiment to use the force of law to push your morality on others. At least unless you weirdly classify Obama as anti government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point
  - hedora 7y ago
    Read up on corporatism. It describes the overlap of moderate Democratic and moderate Republican ideology pretty well. It is a shortening of “corporate fascism”, and is the idea that the government exists to protect the economy, which is best done by strengthening existing power structures that power the current economic system. Therefore the government should defer to corporations whenever possible.
    - takeda 7y ago
      It's also showing up in presidential campaign. Biden is known corporate Democrat. He is still leading in the polls, but losing it. The recent Ukraine revelations also didn't help and looks like Warren is taking over. Out of nowhere 3 new "moderate" candidates appeared, and also Harris got a large donation.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
Another way to put that is that tech people, being tech people, try to solve fundamentally political or social problems by throwing technology at them. And so far it pretty much never works out, unsurprisingly, since it turns out not all problems can be solved with a website.
- ClumsyPilot 7y ago
  Other way of putting it: tech people do their job. I mean, if an engineer is assigned to a project, what else is he/she meant to do?
tripzilch 7y ago
The failure of these people to fix their state, you mean. Instead choosing for the easier and more profitable option of going into tech and the road paved with good intentions. You can build gigantic multinational corporations, disrupt all kinds of industries, change significant parts of people's lives with tech all written with code and rules and regulations but somehow making a well-functioning country is too hard, even when there's well-working smaller prototypes available to learn from.

weinzierl 7y ago

This is true and from what I understand it is available to any EU citizen. The technical term is "Jedermann-Konto" which means "account for everyone". The German Wikipedia article has a lot to say about this topic[1] but unfortunately I didn't find any information in English on it. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedermann-Konto https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedermann-Konto

pgeorgi 7y ago
https://www.bafin.de/EN/Verbraucher/Bank/Produkte/Basiskonto/basiskonto_node_en.html https://www.bafin.de/EN/Verbraucher/Bank/Produkte/Basiskonto... is in English.

egeozcan 7y ago

I'm living in Germany, the bank account of my neighbor in Commerzbank was closed because he wrote "hooker money" in description when sending money to one of his friends. At least that's what we believe because they refused to explain why. He could easily open another account in Volksbank and according to him, when the new account manager asked and learned why his previous account was closed, they had a pretty good laugh. I used to get "funny" too when sending money through PayPal to friends, never again.

petre 7y ago
The financial industry has no sense of humor.
alias_neo 7y ago
I've been with my bank for 15+ years. One time I sent a payment of several hundred £s to a friend who's paid my share of a holiday when booking. In the description I put "fun times". I had a call from my bank asking me to explain the payment the next day. I've never been called before nor since that. It certainly feels like they're a bit touchy about certain references.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  At that moment you should have made it clear that it isn't his business at all to disincenitivise future bad behavior. Even as a lazy person I probably would have switched banks.
  - alias_neo 7y ago
    In hindsight, I probably should have switched banks, but ~~15+ years ago~~ I was young enough that it mattered very little to my sense of principle. They've otherwise been quite reliable since so jumping ship now would almost be asking for trouble. Edit: It wasnt 15 years ago this happened, it was perhaps a decade. I'd already been a customer for some time.
  - nothrabannosir 7y ago

craydandy 7y ago

Might be EU-thing, as the same applies to Finland. Banks also must provide basic payment card, and online banking for everyone. https://www.finanssivalvonta.fi/en/Consumer-protection/questions-and-answers/banking-services/basic-banking-services/ https://www.finanssivalvonta.fi/en/Consumer-protection/quest...

hsailor 7y ago

A jedermann Konto or Basiskonto refers only to a personal account. If a client uses this account for commercial activities (eg receiving payments in the said industry), the bank has every right to close the account.

yati 7y ago
So I can't use my personal account to receive salaries? Does the bank have to know/care about the details my profession?
- odiroot 7y ago
  You can if you're employed by another entity. You cannot use the same account to run a business.
- ptaipale 7y ago
  Depends on what your "salary" is. In the EU, the banks are obligated to find out where you get your money. And they have an obligation to close your account if they don't get satisfactory answers. "Know your customer". My bank has recently started to ask customers to clarify transfers, and even shoot and send some video of themselves, smiling, and explaining things. I haven't got that myself yet but several colleagues have. I'm thinking I should change banks, but am unsure if any other bank is any better, because this is the result of government regulation. The EU laws to fight money laundering are in conflict with national laws for privacy. And because laws for money laundering impact tax revenue, they will triumph over privacy.
  - Ralfp 7y ago
    In EU there is an anti-money laundering directive, but it’s mostly up to member countries how they’ll implement it. As usual some countries implemented it reasonably while others didn’t.
    - rusk 7y ago
      There are new stricter rules coming in 2020, which is, some theorise, a major motivation behind brexit ...

Random_ernest 7y ago

I know several people that had their account closed in germany for perfectly legal things. The Bank calls it: Geschäftsschädigendes Verhalten. Stuff like gambling (which is legal in germany),or being iranian (which I suppose is legal too)

turk73 7y ago

We didn't use to need a law until leftists started using these techniques against people they don't like. Meanwhile, these same hypocrites complain about their vaunted "muh marijuana" getting de-banked or un-banked or whatever non-entit-ification happens. Meanwhile, I am pissed when a JP Morgan says a gun shop can't have a bank account because they don't approve of the gun industry even though gun ownership is a Constitutionally protected. This is akin to saying JP Morgan doesn't want us to vote or have due process.