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Facebook is using the iPhone’s camera as users scroll their feed
- jtokoph 7y agoApple should add a status bar icon that appears whenever your camera is on and in use. Or even color the status bar similarly to how they do for GPS, tethering and calls being active.
- koenigdavidmj 7y agoThis does happen when the microphone is being used while you’re on AirPlay. My wife was scrolling Instagram as I drove, and we noticed it was using the mic.
- globuous 7y agoWhaat ? Is this for real ? How do we combat this ? Do i need to go snowden on my phone, open it up, disconnect everything and use a jack based mic ? I really dont care about the frontal camera, idt i’ve ever used it tbh.
- wil421 7y agoI removed Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp from my phone completely. On the rare a occasion I need Facebook I just login with Safari. Not sure how Instagram is on Safari because I don’t get caught up in it. At my newish job I don’t communicate with anyone overseas but I can see why people would need to use WhatsApp. Next up, Google Maps and Gmail. I plan to use Fastmail but I need a domain without my name in it for non-professional use.
- reacharavindh 7y agoI do the same. No Facebook on phone except logging in with iOS safari in private mode very rarely. However, WhatsApp is the killer app that I’m being peer pressured into keeping on the phone because of social effect. There is just no alternative to it in sight :-( I wish. Gmail -> FastMail. I’d heartily recommend as a very happy customer. Google maps is still another cancer I don’t know how to get rid of.
- hellofunk 7y agoAre you concerned at all about fastmail being located in Australia considering the new anti-privacy laws they are required to comply with?
- farisjarrah 7y agoNot a fastmail customer, but someone who is looking for other paid email providers, the whole privacy thing is concerning, but more concerning to me is getting Google banned and losing access to much of my online life.
- reacharavindh 7y agoYes, I have been concerned with the stupid law in Australia. To be honest, email is not encrypted, and I use it with its limitations in mind. What worries me the most is not a government reading into my emails.. it is advertisement companies and a mighty powerful Google that constantly profiles me with whatever data it can get on me. If FastMail could keep my data away from Google and other advertisement companies, I’m all good. Although I wish Australia doesn’t do something as stupid as this law.
- TurkishPoptart 7y agoI love Telegram. And Signal.
- skyyler 7y agoTelegram is great for group chats and I actually see it being a potential replacement for twitter in some specialized domains thanks to the Channels feature. Signal is great for when you want to talk about things that governments have decided shouldn't be talked about.
- socceroos 7y agoI think Signal is better for group chats and is a potential replacement. Briar is better suited, in my opinion, for talking about things that governments have decided shouldn't be talked about.
- TurkishPoptart 7y agoIt's nearly impossible to us Instagram now without the app. You can't watch videos, and you can probably view one image before getting goaded into getting the app IME.
- skyyler 7y agoAs someone that doesn't use Insta, can you explain the appeal? It reminds me a lot of what television was like in Idiocracy.
- TurkishPoptart 7y agoI don't use it, but I think the appeal is scrolling through images to satisfy our lizard brain's thirst for novel stimulation. If they made it possible to _browse_ without an account, I might spend time on it. But Facebook is allergic to anything remotely anonymous.
- tinus_hn 7y agoWell, that or you can just revoke microphone permission from the app.
- hassancf 7y ago“Go Snowden on my phone”... nice
- vectorEQ 7y agojust avoid facebook if u don't like it. much easier than molesting your poor phone to try and use services which don't agree with you...
- toddmorey 7y agoIsn’t that the idea with the hardware “camera is on” light on laptops? That it shouldn’t be possible to override with software? Maybe phones should have something similar.
- krausefx 7y agoIt doesn't solve all the problems, the status bar can be hidden or faked unfortunately https://krausefx.com/blog/ios-privacy-watchuser-access-both-iphone-cameras-any-time-your-app-is-running https://krausefx.com/blog/ios-privacy-watchuser-access-both-...
- alkonaut 7y agoI'm quite fine with only malicious apps spying on me to begin with. I'm pretty sure Facebook or other large players wouldn't use that kind of trick. Obviously that might not be enough for everyone, but it's by far the best solution that works with existing hardware. Tomorrows phones might have indicator LEDs or hardware switches, but my current one doesn't.
- saagarjha 7y agoIt’d be interesting to see if Apple added system UI on top of apps that tried to access the camera, displayed by SpringBoard so apps couldn’t draw over it.
- dawg- 7y agoMy Samsung S9 sends a push notification when apps are using the camera
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- devmunchies 7y agoApple should add a slider to the phone so i can physically cover the camera when not using it. something like this: https://www.amazon.com/C-Slide-Sliding-Computers-Chromebooks-Consoles/dp/B00AZ639VG https://www.amazon.com/C-Slide-Sliding-Computers-Chromebooks... Hell, even integrating it into the phone and opening the camera app when i open the rear slider would be a killer feature.
- jmkni 7y agoI honestly though that was already a thing!
- neonIcon 7y agoLike the article says, in the meantime revoke the camera permissions in order to circumvent this colossal cluster*uck..
- ct0 7y agoGet out of my personal business Mark.
- williamxd3 7y agoJust dont use his products.
- devicetray0 7y agoIt's been reported many times that Facebook creates shadow profiles for everyone who does not use FB, and still tracks them across the web. So avoiding them is harder than "just dont use his products"
- sparker72678 7y agoBut you can at least avoid having your own camera/mic turned on all the time if you're not using the app.
- skyyler 7y agoIf you don't like what John Wayne Gacy does to kids, don't hire Patches the Clown for your kid's birthday party. Hyperbolic, but simply boycotting the products isn't enough here.
- LinuxBender 7y agoI'm sure nobody will like this idea, but cameras and microphones should have a physical switch that kills the power and data feed, in my opinion. So you would have airplane mode and trade-secret sharing mode. Power should be diverted to an LED so that people can see you have disabled camera and microphone.
- dorkinspace 7y agoI love this idea and would pay extra for a phone with hardware switches for camera and mic! Then again, I'd also buy a phone that had no camera but that is damn near impossible today.
- time0ut 7y agoThe narrative is that the app using the camera is a bug. I don't know what to think about that yet. On one hand, I expect Facebook (and many other things) to spy on users in every way possible. On the other, it seems to be the rear facing camera being activated and I would think they'd get more value out of the front facing camera. Who knows though. Guess it's time to go all Snowden on my phone. Or maybe just full RMS...
- kd3 7y agoFull RMS. Always go full RMS
- kpU8efre7r 7y agoNo thanks
- fivethr33 7y agoI'm not sure what serial sexual assault will do to protect our privacy.
- babaganoosh89 7y agoIt's definitely a bug, over the last few days I'd notice that when viewing images in landscape mode, it would first load the camera, then load the image. And when you closed the image, it would leave you on the camera page.
- devjam 7y agoYes, it's a bug; the bug is that it was the rear-facing camera, not the front-facing one.
- chrismeller 7y agoReally I related I suppose, but if you’ve never attempted to use the camera or microphone in the FB app it doesn’t even show those permissions in the app settings, just basic Locations, Photos, etc. Is that normal?
- machello13 7y agoYes, the way the Settings app works, it doesn't show permissions until the app requests them (the idea being, I suppose, to avoid cluttering up the settings screen for apps that will never need access to certain things).
- spurgu 7y agoSo if I don't see the Camera settings, it means Facebook hasn't been using them?
- antsar 7y agoCorrect, assuming they haven't found some side-channel to bypass the permission system.
- kevinventullo 7y agoAbusing a side-channel like that is an easy way to get booted from the App Store.
- antsar 7y agoGetting caught abusing a side-channel like that is an easy way to get booted from the App Store. FTFY. Also, it's Facebook. Surely they have some strategic/political strings they can pull?
- colejohnson66 7y agoApple revoked Facebook’s enterprise certificate when they were found to be abusing it. Apple holds the reins here.
- schainks 7y agoThe web browser version of FB is half decent, use that if you must. "I don't know why. They "trust" me. Dumb fucks." — Mark Zuckerberg (https://www.businessinsider.com/exclusive-mark-zuckerbergs-secret-ims-from-college-2012-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/exclusive-mark-zuckerbergs-s...)
- packetslave 7y agoI'm sure YOU never said anything stupid over IM when you were 19. I'm sure YOU'VE not changed a bit in the past 16 years (the Zuck IMs were from 2003). Yeah, it was a stupid thing to say, but again... 19. [disclaimer: FB has no interest in me speaking on their behalf, unofficially or otherwise]
- slenk 7y agoThere have been stories over the years that always seem to confirm that scumminess is still inside
- Nextgrid 7y agoOn the other hand, if I was at the head of a company the scale of Facebook I'd just admit my past mistakes, apologise and do my best to regain people's trust. To the best of my knowledge, Zuckerberg hasn't done any of that and tried to cover up other potential mistakes by deleting all his past IMs from people's messaging histories [0] (something normal users still can't do). [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/6/17203114/facebook-mark-zuckerberg-messages-deleted-messenger-inbox https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/6/17203114/facebook-mark-zuc...
- resters 7y agoWhen I first heard about Zuck's quote I agreed with one of the commenters below who views it as an adolescent gaffe. But in the years since, it's become clear that Facebook is not a trustworthy platform. It is, in essence the social credit score AND great firewall of the US (and much of the world). No data in Facebook is off limits to governments, period. Think about the many trillions of crimes that have been committed where solid evidence (even confessions) is on Facebook's servers. It's just a matter of time until Facebook's data is used for law enforcement and profiling in ways that dramatically violate the 4th amendment and human rights in general. We learned recently that two Twitter employees had been Saudi agents. I think it ought to be considered obvious that most state actors have various employees in key roles in major tech firms, so it doesn't really matter what Facebook's official policies are with respect to warrant compliance, crime preemption, etc., state actors have access.
- lalos 7y agoI thought this was common knowledge (https://simplecapacity.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Mark-Zuckerberg-Tapes-His-Camera-And-Audio-Jack-With-Pieces-Of-Tape.-THIS-Tells-You-Something....jpg https://simplecapacity.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Mark-Z...). Not affiliated in anyways but EFF (non profit) offers removable stickers for blocking cameras, not to mention that it’s also a donation. This is one set https://supporters.eff.org/shop/laptop-camera-cover-set-ii https://supporters.eff.org/shop/laptop-camera-cover-set-ii Down side is that on newer iPhones you’ll have to cut it down to not block all the screen, small price to pay for a little extra privacy. Also why does iOS have a blinking status bar when the camera is on or at least provide on the settings app how much camera was used per app (in minutes or frames and at what time stamps), this way one can easily validate if the app is using the camera without the user prompting for it.
- uoaei 7y agoI implore you to enter the nearest dive bar or Applebee's and ask people what is "common knowledge" with respect to digital privacy. Yes, we are surrounded by people who live and breathe these sorts of details. For many of us, it's our day jobs. We have to uphold some sense of decency and ethics at the highest levels in order to protect those who are otherwise unaware of the threats.
- 38932ur98u 7y agoSomebody explain this to me, as I've never worked at a large company. Facebook has tens of thousands of employees. How is more not known about the extent that they track you like this (and other slimy practices)? I imagibe if somebody leaks something it would be impossible to pinpoint who exactly did so. Does really nobody whistleblow?
- petmon 7y agoBecause the company is large and the churn in the app is very high, it is hard to keep track of what's happening across the app. Does Facebook activate the camera during feed? The answer may depend on which user is logged in (A/B test), which device is being used, which version of the app (weekly releases), etc. A definitive answer may depend on when you ask, or not exist at all. Maybe this is the default behavior, but it's possible that this is an experiment that Maddux happened to fall into. You can imagine that Facebook would be interested in gauging facial reactions to feed items. It also may legitimately be a bug. It's reasonable that if you navigate to a camera surface, and then back, that the camera is not turned off. Because Facebook releases so often, the cost of bugs is reduced, so the number of bugs rises. (Not trying to defend Fb here, simply answering the question.)
- brenden2 7y agoAnother factor is that for a lot of people the value of their comp is much greater than any reward they might receive as a whistleblower. Why rock the boat when you can keep your head down and keep getting $500k/year? At that rate you can retire comfortably after 5 years.
- aylmao 7y agoI read a thread on Twitter about this. It's an interesting take by the guy who used to be CSO at Facebook, has since resigned, and at some point commented that Zuckerberg should step down [1]: https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/1185954967086981125 https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/1185954967086981125 [1]: https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/5/24/18637823/alex-stamos-facebook-mark-zuckerberg-ceo-kara-swisher-decode-podcast-interview-collision-conference https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/5/24/18637823/alex-stamos-fa...
- nycticorax 7y ago"We further noticed the issue only occurs if you have given the Facebook app access to your camera." Are there any good reasons for FB to be asking for this, or for people to grant it?
- kimjongtrill 7y agoshit. good thing i have been scrolling with the tip of my dick.
- dang 7y agoPlease don't do this here.
- kimjongtrill 7y agoLol ok
- oliyoung 7y agothis is either priming the video feed to make it quicker when you want to access it, or it's malicious. i mean, it's Facebook, no way it's malicious right?
- samat 7y agoGiving & taking back photos & camera access is pain in the ass. Apple already solved this exact issue with location, where you can grant it for one time only and be re-asked next time. Hope they use the same mechanics with camera & photos.
- saagarjha 7y agoGranting one-time access to photos means Facebook can just copy them all and keep them.
- Flockster 7y agoIt could be the other way around, the App calling an OS Picker, where the user decides which photo to give to the app.
- alexanderchr 7y agoThis is already how apps access files (except for files in the app's own directory). Don't see why Apple couldn't make it work the same for photos.
- snuxoll 7y agoIt does, but apps want to customize the experience instead of using the OS provided picker for some annoying reason. At least they should fallback if you deny access to your library, I’d like to see Apple mandate that.
- saagarjha 7y agoThis already exists; apps have to opt-in to using it and a Facebook (among many other apps) refuses to.
- chopin 7y agoAndroid has "intents", which do exactly this. But you need to explicitly code against that.
- codeulike 7y agodont install their app, just use it in the browser edit: and they wont let you use messenger that way, for no good reason. So just use messenger on desktop or in desktop mode. edit: or mbasic.facebook.com for messenger
- cryptozeus 7y agoThat is what i do, it has also help me decrease the usage of fb and insta.
- fooker 7y agoUse mbasic.facebook.com
- NegatioN 7y agoI use messenger.com which seems like another bare-bones alternative they have. But I'm guessing it's still heavy on tracking somehow? Also using Messenger lite on Android for whatever that's worth... Would love to hear any reasons to make me delete that as well.
- tracker1 7y agoThere's a few "lite" versions of facebook and messenger out there that are either electron or otherwise wrappers for their trimmed down websites. I use Caprine on desktop for messenger, and Face-Slim (F-Droid) for mobile.
- staz 7y agoOn Android you can use "Tinfoil for Facebook", which is basicallt a separte browser which will limit facebook interaction with other site and work with Messenger
- FloatArtifact 7y agoI could be wrong but last I checked the app is no longer maintained.
- skizm 7y agoWhy doesn't Apple turn on a green light when the camera is in use, just like their laptops do when using the webcam? Or even something like the GPS indicator you see when an app is using your GPS? Seems like a pretty easy fix. Could even do it in software.
- saagarjha 7y agoWell, there is no green light to turn on at the moment.
- teolandon 7y ago>Or even something like the GPS indicator you see when an app is using your GPS? Seems like a pretty easy fix. Could even do it in software.
- saagarjha 7y agoIf you’re talking about the double-height status bar (or its equivalent on modern iPhones), I think you can programmatically draw over it.
- uoaei 7y agoThe public became aware of remote non-consensual hardware access about 5 iPhones ago. And since the laptops all have that feature... it looks like Apple is aware of the problem. Surely there is some crosstalk in the company between product designers. With a company like Apple, anything less is inexcusable.
- spike021 7y agoEh, they could put a camera icon in the status bar just like they do with the location icon if a service/app is trying to access the user's location.
- saagarjha 7y agoI believe you can hide that programmatically.
- ihuman 7y agoIIRC The app used to have a feature that allowed you to swipe to the right to quickly bring up the camera. I wonder if this bug is a remnant of that feature.
- ga-vu 7y agoThe feature still exists. It's for their Stories support. Basically, the iOS app is prematurely pulling up the camera view. Nothing super shady as the linked (garbage) article implies.
- uoaei 7y agoStated intention and actual intention are different. And besides, even if that is the intention... this company is way too big and influential to be making blatant privacy violations and having internet commenters try to sell the public on a corporation's ethics.
- dkonofalski 7y agoYeah... the article is pretty garbage. If you have given the Facebook app permission to use your camera, it can use it whether it's showing you a frame in the background or not. The tweet in question is merely showing a bug that happens to speed up the loading of the camera UI. If FB is spying on users, they're doing it whether this article is true or not.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- egdod 7y agoFacebook is not entitled to the benefit of any doubts.
- s17n 7y agoThe article is clearly crap though.
- IgorPartola 7y agoDelete that thing off your phone. I use Instagram pending a better platform but Facebook is useless to me.
- rantwasp 7y agoInstagram is Facebook
- derwiki 7y agoThat's why I started posting photos to LinkedIn
- amwelles 7y agoI switched to Pixelfed recently. My friends aren’t on it (yet), but I can share my photos there and send the links as needed.
- newscracker 7y agoPixelfed doesn’t yet have a mobile app, which is the primary requirement for a platform that wants to compete with Instagram. Until there’s an app, I don’t see it picking up more users. [I have used Pixelfed from a browser]
- cyrksoft 7y agoIt's something new they are working on. Something about augmented reality ads or something like that (I have a friend working at Facebook).
- cwkoss 7y agoThat somehow sounds more dystopian than covert surveillance
- EGreg 7y agoA week later: “Apple announces apps will no longer have access to the camera for more than a minute after authorization, will have to tell call new iOS methods to say when they’re done using the camera, indicators will appear in the status bar when camera is on, ...” When they could have just had a green light like macbooks, at least on the front (or if they care about rights of others to know when they are being recorded, the back too)
- nouveau0 7y agoWhen FB sees my cam from the feed https://i.redd.it/icok5mempnd21.jpg https://i.redd.it/icok5mempnd21.jpg
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- h3ckr 7y agoBeing an iOS developer myself, I can see how a bug like that can take place. I'm sure it's just a technical glitch, but hey, conspiracy theories everywhere these days.
- vmurthy 7y agoHas a bunch of PMs or whoever decided that they'll f* up the business in the long term chasing OKRs? It looks like they introduce these sort of "features" every now and then which should spark more outrage but looks like people don't care even if they are aware. I am unfortunately in the minority who cares enough not to use FB/IG :-( Also, the hypocrisy [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/22/mark-zuckerberg-tape-webcam-microphone-facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/22/mark-zuck...
- moooo99 7y agoHonestly, I never thought that I'd be defending facebook, but I honestly think its a bug. It always takes some time until the camera is initialized and the first frame rendered on the canvas. I bet the Instagram app, Snapchat, Twitter and WhatsApp are doing the same thing. I honestly think it is a feature to improve the user experience when starting the camera. That being said, while they are already using the camera, they'd probably be able to do some on device ML to detect faces, emotions etc. But I'm pretty confident they're not constantly streaming your private camera feed.
- unkclelanny 7y agoI’ve long suspected this as the Facebook app in particular causes the phone to get hot around where the main camera module ic is located. It is also a battery drain. They appear to be doing this in collaboration with Apple as the battery usage for the camera does not increase despite the camera constantly being initiated while using the Facebook app. I’ve also noticed that when certain ad platforms inject their code into Safari taboola/outbrain the same heating occurs. This would make sense as taboola and outbrain appear to be linked to Israeli intelligence. I guess they not only don’t care about our privacy they also don’t care about our battery life / health of our devices either. It sort of reminds me of how windows would spin up your HDD In the middle of the night and scan through your entire hard drive causing it to prematurely fail. All under the guise of windows update or whatever the cover was for what I consider criminal damage.
- colejohnson66 7y agoOr maybe the main processor is near the camera? It’s not a conspiracy.
- an2911k 7y agoGenuine Question: How is Apple's review system also not at a fault here?
- swamp-agr 7y agoPaste content from link below to your /etc/hosts file: https://pastebin.com/raw/FAV2f9eA https://pastebin.com/raw/FAV2f9eA On Android you could prevent Facebook by blacklisting same hosts via Firefox + NoScript.
- tripzilch 7y ago... and I was only joking when a few years back, I asked my then girlfriend if she could maybe not check her Facebook feed lying next to me in bed, "because who knows, Zuckerberg might be watching us through that little camera". I was joking, damnit.
- throwawaymanbot 7y agoI love how the facebook discussion on this thread has turned in to Amazon and google discussion. Bravo facebook PR, Bravo.
- jdlyga 7y agoJust disable permissions for camera and microphone in the Facebook app. It doesn't affect uploading photos, and you can still use Messenger to take selfies and send voice messages.