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I’m a really big fan of this movement towards shorter workweeks. Personally, I enjoy working hard - usually more than 40 hours per week. But we should distingu

I’m a really big fan of this movement towards shorter workweeks. Personally, I enjoy working hard - usually more than 40 hours per week. But we should distinguish between working for others and working for oneself. Working for oneself can be education, passion work, or anything that energizes you. Working for others is also necessary for most people but reducing the weekly commitment gives people more freedom in their lives and makes them happier and more productive. For some, the extra time away from work gives them the freedom to spend more time with their family or children, or spend more time on their hobbies. But ultimately it makes these people better contributing members of society. One belief I certainly don’t agree with is the idea that working less for others makes you a lazy person or a less contributing member of society. People need free time to care for themselves and others, vote and participate in democracy, and do their laundry. We will be better off with less time committed to working for others. And of course I cant help but plug 30 Hour Jobs here since it’s very much relevant: https://30hourjobs.com https://30hourjobs.com

newswasboring 7y ago
> Personally, I enjoy working hard - usually more than 40 hours per week. The very first thing that needs to go is this glorification of working hours. Nobody should care how long you work. Time doesn't have any inherent value in a knowledge industry.
raxxorrax 7y ago
Contributing to society shouldn't even be the desired metric. With freedom it often comes as a byproduct.
- tripzilch 7y ago
  If you don't care about contributing to society, then: "shouldn't" -- according to who? "desired" -- by who? "freedom" -- with regards to what exactly? I guess ... enjoy your old age when you're unable to work but not part of any society you contributed to, I hope people will care enough to spare some "freedom byproduct" for you.
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    I probably will. Additionally it allows me to see value in life just for the sake of it.
mywacaday 7y ago
I'm not sure if shorter work weeks will ever appear or work but ever since I have had kids I feel guilty working 40+ hours a week. I see my kids when getting ready in the morning and driving them to creche and then the reverse in the evening. About two hours contact time per day but not quality time. Weekends are spent on jobs and chores and some quality time but not enough. A five hour day would allow for so much more contact.
celticninja 7y ago
I work ~40 hours per week over 4 days. The difference that having a 3 day weekend makes to work life balance is significant. I don't work Monday's, I work slightly longer each day for the other 4 days. I never have that Sunday night/Monday morning feeling about work coming round too soon. I miss some meetings that are scheduled for a Monday but guess what, the world keeps turning.
beckingz 7y ago
Morale and productivity would increase if I was expected to spend 30 hours a week producing and 10+ hours improving my ability to produce through either self care or continuing learning.
- nbrempel 7y ago
  Agreed
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  Don't ask permission, just do it anyways. That's what I've done and it's only led to increased pay and broader opportunity to demand flexible work hours.
  - spurdoman77 7y ago
    Well if your work contract allows "not asking for permissions", why not.
  - bamboozled 7y ago
    Agree, do it until someone has a problem with it, and then find another way to do it, like finding a new job (if you have the luxury).
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - merouan 7y ago
    I appreciate the sentiment and agree on an individual level but it’s not reproducible across the entire workforce. There is a certain degree of privilege required to even feel comfortable adopting this policy. As software engineers some of us have that privilege but few other workers do.
    - lugg 7y ago
      Software engineers aren't special. Please stop treating them as some enlightened class. They're not. Software engineers face the same idiocy as everyone else. Every other industry has smart, creative, individuals willing to buck the system and try new things for an edge. If you truly believe people can't express a simple argument for trialing this sort of thing without losing their jobs maybe they should be looking for a new job because their current one sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen.
Swizec 7y ago
Oh damn 30hrjobs looks great! I also like to work hard but I gotta say running a side business while also working full time is getting harder the older I get. There’s really only so much you can squeeze out of a day.
- ibeckermayer 7y ago
  Out of curiosity what’s your side business?
mc3 7y ago
You might know running that job board - do 30 hour jobs pay as good an hourly rate as regular 40 hour jobs?
- nbrempel 7y ago
  I think that depends on the company. There are companies that offer flexible hours and shorter weeks without a reduction in pay. I think it is more common to find companies that support shorter workweeks with a relative adjustment in pay.
ArlenBales 7y ago
> Personally, I enjoy working hard - usually more than 40 hours per week I would call that working long, not hard. If hours determines how hard (i.e. effective) you are when working, then it certainly doesn't apply to some people I know who spend 40% of their 40 hours a week browsing Facebook.
- xboxnolifes 7y ago
  I wouldn't consider those 16 hours on Facebook working as much as being at work.
- grawprog 7y ago
  >I would call that working long, not hard I agree with this. When I first started my current job, overtime hours were utterly ridiculous, over the years I've managed to cut it down to mostly 8 hour days while increasing productivity fairly exponentially. A lot of time was wasted manually doing work pointless i automated as much as possible.I feel I work a lot harder now and get more done in less hours than I did before working 10-11 hour days.
etagobla 7y ago
I wish I knew how common it was to have a full-time job but only work for a fraction of that time. My last software job was supposedly 40 hours/week. I'd usually come in for two hours and leave. They wouldn't be an intense two hours either. Once in a while I'd stay all day. Based on what I hear from my friends from university, this experience is not the median but it's not uncommon either. Many managers really don't know how to manage. Morale goes down the shitter, and unless you have children it's unlikely you'll care about getting caught.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 7y ago
  You are describing it as an unpleasant place to work, but what's the background to this? If you are keeping up with your commitments, and the company is not crashing, is morale the main problem?
  - etagobla 7y ago
    My point is that the "5-hour workday" might be more common than many of us think.
    - galangalalgol 7y ago
      My employer is about to start a 10hr workday 4 days a week. Essentially all errands, chores, and kid time will get shuffled to the weekend i suspect.
      - etagobla 7y ago
        Have you taught your kids about the benefits of fasting? xD
        galangalalgol 7y ago
        I am a proponent of fasting actually. I am curious about the effects on tiny people in growth spurts.
dev_dull 7y ago
Exactly! I have so many side projects I like to tinker with while I'm at home. I use them as a way to learn a new skill. Eventually those skills will come home to my employer, either with new ideas, frameworks, experience, etc. But for that to happen I need the time to self-explore and follow my own ideas.
iamsb 7y ago
Curious - if you are a knowledge worker and getting through your tasks in say 4 days, does your boss/company really care how you are spending remaining 1 day? I often use company time to learn about new things that are related to my work, but not necessarily immediate tasks. For example - While working on a Java app, I will spend some time learning AWS or Kotlin. Not one person in the companies I have worked for ever told me off for doing that, most in fact encouraged it. My personal diary/notes suggests I spend between 25-30 hours/week doing actual tasks or attending meetings and remaining I spend socializing at work to build relationships which will help get things done for me or learning. This of course is average over a year, some weeks are more work heavy (even stretching to more than 40 hours) and some less so. I have come to prefer it instead of shorter work week, which means same amount of work needs to be done in less number of sleep/break cycles, reducing the quality I produce. When I worked for myself, I used to work only 3-4 days a week and observed that in theory it sounds good, but my personal experience was, I was spending far less time subconsciously and output was not inline with my usual quality.
- jsinai 7y ago
  But on the other hand, you could be spending that extra time reading and learning about things for your own interest or socializing with your friends for your personal benefit and social health. Ultimately there is a trade-off between spending time at work and for yourself/friends/family. What the OP and other recent posts are increasingly showing is that the amount of time we really need to spend at work (perhaps especially if you are a knowledge worker) is not as much as our normal hours dictate. Culture is a strong force.
- mantoto 7y ago
  Then you should have time to optimize your environment. Making documentation better. Or cleaning out technical Dept, making things more performant or more reliable.
  - HammockWarrior 7y ago
    If you got time to lean, you got time to clean!

newswasboring 7y ago

> Personally, I enjoy working hard - usually more than 40 hours per week. The very first thing that needs to go is this glorification of working hours. Nobody should care how long you work. Time doesn't have any inherent value in a knowledge industry.

raxxorrax 7y ago

Contributing to society shouldn't even be the desired metric. With freedom it often comes as a byproduct.

tripzilch 7y ago
If you don't care about contributing to society, then: "shouldn't" -- according to who? "desired" -- by who? "freedom" -- with regards to what exactly? I guess ... enjoy your old age when you're unable to work but not part of any society you contributed to, I hope people will care enough to spare some "freedom byproduct" for you.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  I probably will. Additionally it allows me to see value in life just for the sake of it.

mywacaday 7y ago

I'm not sure if shorter work weeks will ever appear or work but ever since I have had kids I feel guilty working 40+ hours a week. I see my kids when getting ready in the morning and driving them to creche and then the reverse in the evening. About two hours contact time per day but not quality time. Weekends are spent on jobs and chores and some quality time but not enough. A five hour day would allow for so much more contact.

celticninja 7y ago

I work ~40 hours per week over 4 days. The difference that having a 3 day weekend makes to work life balance is significant. I don't work Monday's, I work slightly longer each day for the other 4 days. I never have that Sunday night/Monday morning feeling about work coming round too soon. I miss some meetings that are scheduled for a Monday but guess what, the world keeps turning.

beckingz 7y ago

Morale and productivity would increase if I was expected to spend 30 hours a week producing and 10+ hours improving my ability to produce through either self care or continuing learning.

nbrempel 7y ago
Agreed
Consultant32452 7y ago
Don't ask permission, just do it anyways. That's what I've done and it's only led to increased pay and broader opportunity to demand flexible work hours.
- spurdoman77 7y ago
  Well if your work contract allows "not asking for permissions", why not.
- bamboozled 7y ago
  Agree, do it until someone has a problem with it, and then find another way to do it, like finding a new job (if you have the luxury).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- merouan 7y ago
  I appreciate the sentiment and agree on an individual level but it’s not reproducible across the entire workforce. There is a certain degree of privilege required to even feel comfortable adopting this policy. As software engineers some of us have that privilege but few other workers do.
  - lugg 7y ago
    Software engineers aren't special. Please stop treating them as some enlightened class. They're not. Software engineers face the same idiocy as everyone else. Every other industry has smart, creative, individuals willing to buck the system and try new things for an edge. If you truly believe people can't express a simple argument for trialing this sort of thing without losing their jobs maybe they should be looking for a new job because their current one sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen.

Swizec 7y ago

Oh damn 30hrjobs looks great! I also like to work hard but I gotta say running a side business while also working full time is getting harder the older I get. There’s really only so much you can squeeze out of a day.

ibeckermayer 7y ago
Out of curiosity what’s your side business?

mc3 7y ago

You might know running that job board - do 30 hour jobs pay as good an hourly rate as regular 40 hour jobs?

nbrempel 7y ago
I think that depends on the company. There are companies that offer flexible hours and shorter weeks without a reduction in pay. I think it is more common to find companies that support shorter workweeks with a relative adjustment in pay.

ArlenBales 7y ago

> Personally, I enjoy working hard - usually more than 40 hours per week I would call that working long, not hard. If hours determines how hard (i.e. effective) you are when working, then it certainly doesn't apply to some people I know who spend 40% of their 40 hours a week browsing Facebook.

xboxnolifes 7y ago
I wouldn't consider those 16 hours on Facebook working as much as being at work.
grawprog 7y ago
>I would call that working long, not hard I agree with this. When I first started my current job, overtime hours were utterly ridiculous, over the years I've managed to cut it down to mostly 8 hour days while increasing productivity fairly exponentially. A lot of time was wasted manually doing work pointless i automated as much as possible.I feel I work a lot harder now and get more done in less hours than I did before working 10-11 hour days.

etagobla 7y ago

I wish I knew how common it was to have a full-time job but only work for a fraction of that time. My last software job was supposedly 40 hours/week. I'd usually come in for two hours and leave. They wouldn't be an intense two hours either. Once in a while I'd stay all day. Based on what I hear from my friends from university, this experience is not the median but it's not uncommon either. Many managers really don't know how to manage. Morale goes down the shitter, and unless you have children it's unlikely you'll care about getting caught.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ClumsyPilot 7y ago
You are describing it as an unpleasant place to work, but what's the background to this? If you are keeping up with your commitments, and the company is not crashing, is morale the main problem?
- etagobla 7y ago
  My point is that the "5-hour workday" might be more common than many of us think.
  - galangalalgol 7y ago
    My employer is about to start a 10hr workday 4 days a week. Essentially all errands, chores, and kid time will get shuffled to the weekend i suspect.
    - etagobla 7y ago
      Have you taught your kids about the benefits of fasting? xD
      - galangalalgol 7y ago
        I am a proponent of fasting actually. I am curious about the effects on tiny people in growth spurts.

dev_dull 7y ago

Exactly! I have so many side projects I like to tinker with while I'm at home. I use them as a way to learn a new skill. Eventually those skills will come home to my employer, either with new ideas, frameworks, experience, etc. But for that to happen I need the time to self-explore and follow my own ideas.

iamsb 7y ago

Curious - if you are a knowledge worker and getting through your tasks in say 4 days, does your boss/company really care how you are spending remaining 1 day? I often use company time to learn about new things that are related to my work, but not necessarily immediate tasks. For example - While working on a Java app, I will spend some time learning AWS or Kotlin. Not one person in the companies I have worked for ever told me off for doing that, most in fact encouraged it. My personal diary/notes suggests I spend between 25-30 hours/week doing actual tasks or attending meetings and remaining I spend socializing at work to build relationships which will help get things done for me or learning. This of course is average over a year, some weeks are more work heavy (even stretching to more than 40 hours) and some less so. I have come to prefer it instead of shorter work week, which means same amount of work needs to be done in less number of sleep/break cycles, reducing the quality I produce. When I worked for myself, I used to work only 3-4 days a week and observed that in theory it sounds good, but my personal experience was, I was spending far less time subconsciously and output was not inline with my usual quality.

jsinai 7y ago
But on the other hand, you could be spending that extra time reading and learning about things for your own interest or socializing with your friends for your personal benefit and social health. Ultimately there is a trade-off between spending time at work and for yourself/friends/family. What the OP and other recent posts are increasingly showing is that the amount of time we really need to spend at work (perhaps especially if you are a knowledge worker) is not as much as our normal hours dictate. Culture is a strong force.
mantoto 7y ago
Then you should have time to optimize your environment. Making documentation better. Or cleaning out technical Dept, making things more performant or more reliable.
- HammockWarrior 7y ago
  If you got time to lean, you got time to clean!