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Mass cellphone surveillance experiment in Spain
- DoctorOetker 7y agogo to etsi.org go to the search form for standards and enter "lawful interception" without quotes. Read / browse all the relevant standards (titles and content). This has been going on for years and years
- severine 7y agoThanks for the link! There are 1130 results: https://www.etsi.org/standards#page=1&search=lawful%20interception&title=1&etsiNumber=1&content=1&version=0&onApproval=1&published=1&historical=1&startDate=1988-01-15&endDate=2019-10-29&harmonized=0&keyword=&TB=&stdType=&frequency=&mandate=&collection=&sort=1 https://www.etsi.org/standards#page=1&search=lawful%20interc...
- severine 7y agoI've posted the link to HN, so as to not derail this thread, but there's a clear conversation starter there! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21390968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21390968
- BuildTheRobots 7y ago> It is unclear whether enabling airplane mode stops this tracking. The only way to make sure is to remove the SIM card and battery from the phone. It is possible for a handset to attach to a network without a SIM card for the purposes of making an emergency call. Please don't think removing or swapping your SIM card stops tracking. I've yet to see 2G or 3G phones try and talk to a local network in aeroplane mode (though you shouldn't believe me). I did see some oddness years ago when testing an early and proprietary LTE handset, but I'm not sure I'd believe that either.
- theossuary 7y agoIt also seems like phones have their own tracking ids that they report, it's not just the sim card. There was a great talk about some of this from black hat; how the CIA renditioned Abu Omar out of Italy and how they were found out: https://youtu.be/BwGsr3SzCZc https://youtu.be/BwGsr3SzCZc
- tinus_hn 7y agoThese ‘trackingids’ are called the IMEI, the International Mobile Equipment Identifier.
- alias_neo 7y agoAll GSM phones have at least one of these (multi-SIM devices have multiple), they uniquely identify devices with SIMs and are held in databases shared intentionally amongst many nations for blacklisting and such. If a phone is reported stolen in the UK and reported, it's IMEI can be added to this list and the device becomes useless in participating countries, say for example, Spain, or Germany or the US. My point is, it's a globally unique identifier; tempering with, modifying or cloning them is illegal in some countries. The SIM itself is almost irrelevant, but, with the information mobile providers hold, it's trivial to link a SIM account, a device identifier and a person (particular given some countries require ID by law to obtain a SIM).
- mindslight 7y agoFurthermore, being criminalized in some countries has caused discussion of how to change IMEIs to be censored in technical forums everywhere. The obvious draw is stolen phones, so nobody wants to touch the topic with a ten foot pole, despite its straightforward relevance to privacy.
- gruez 7y ago>censored in technical forums everywhere everywhere? I found this in 1 minute. https://forum.xda-developers.com/android/general/how-to-restore-lost-imei-t2936696 https://forum.xda-developers.com/android/general/how-to-rest...
- diego 7y ago"With a court order, this data can be used to identify and track an individual... ... which means that it is stored de-anonymized in the carrier servers" No, it does not mean that it's stored de-anonymized. It means that it can be de-anonymized if required by a court order. EDIT because all the downvotes, this is not nitpicking. The deanonymizing data is ELSEWHERE, not on the servers. It takes a court order to obtain it, employees cannot use it. It's an important point.
- the_svd_doctor 7y agoIsn't that the same? If it was properly anonymized, it couldn't be de-anonymized. Which implies it's not anonymized, i.e., it's store de-anonymized.
- diego 7y agoNo, it's not the same. It could be stored anonymized, and the de-anonymizing data is somewhere else, and it can ONLY be accessed with a court order. I don't know why my original comment is being downvoted, it's an important distinction. Edit: stop with the downvotes please. Whether you agree or not, anonymizing something does not always mean it cannot be de-anonymized. And who can do it (and under what circumstances) is important.
- matheusmoreira 7y agoIf the de-anonymizing data exists at all, then the anonymized data was never truly anonymized in the first place.
- diego 7y agoAnonymizing does not mean that it has to be one-way. You can give other people an anonymized version of your data, but you can keep the key to deanonymize that data (and hand it out selectively). I don't know who is assuming that anonymizing means the information has to be thrown away and lost to EVERYONE.
- petre 7y agoJust shut it down and wrap it in aluminium foil if you're concerned.
- Mirioron 7y agoI thought that something like this would not be allowed due to the general monitoring clause as per article 15 of the directive 2000/31/EC.[0] But reading it again I'm not sure anymore. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0031:en:HTML https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX...
- xpuente 7y agoThis "experiment" might be somehow related with https://tsunamidemocratic.github.io https://tsunamidemocratic.github.io ?
- capableweb 7y agoThat was my first thought too but seems the dates are between 18 and 21 november. If they wanted to track the current widespread protests in Spain, they would have done it right now.
- enriquto 7y agothey are of course tracking us right now. This announcement is just an explicit reminder that they can do so, to try to scare the people. The dates are irrelevant.
- iagovar 7y agoNo, it's not related at all. Jesus guys, this is not reddit, you don't need all of this to know the location and track a mobile phone. Every carrier in the world can do this with very basic tooling.
- jammygit 7y agoAlso in Spanish news: there was a separation movement leading to the arrests and jailing of separatist leaders after 90% of the population votes for separation. The leaders got something like 15 years of jail time. There have been massive protests for weeks now https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-50194846 https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-50194846
- rolae 7y agoWhile true, the number of 90% is a little misleading. The vote was declared unconstitutional and illegal by Spanish government, so many people against a separation did not show up to vote. However with a voter turnout of 43%, it is still a strong signal in favor of separation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe...
- wklauss 7y agoIt is extremely misleading. Support for secession in Catalonia hovers around 40%.
- hutzlibu 7y agoSources?
- wklauss 7y agohttps://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/10/11/the-myth-of-massive-support-for-independence-in-catalonia/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/10/1... The last wave from the Centre d'Studis d'Opinió from the Generalitat (Local Government), measures support for independence at 44% vs 48% who wish to remain part of Spain. http://www.rtve.es/contenidos/documentos/barometro_ceo_julio_2019.pdf http://www.rtve.es/contenidos/documentos/barometro_ceo_julio...
- hutzlibu 7y ago
- Erlich_Bachman 7y agoHasn't this been going on in most countries and most carriers for years?
- StanislavPetrov 7y agoA good article but I'd like to offer one minor correction. >The only way to make sure is to remove the SIM card and battery from the phone. You only have to remove the battery, not the battery and the SIM. You aren't being tracked if your phone has no battery.
- kuu 7y agoThe problem is that carriers have being retrieving this data for a long time. This news is that they're giving the data to the government for statistical analysis and we cannot do anything about it...
- enriquto 7y agoit is very innocent to believe that the carriers would not provide these data already to the government if asked (e.g. by a court order), and they have probably been asked many times.
- readhn 7y agoWell, you would think this kind of mass surveillance would help Spanish authorities put Russian mobsters (with connections to Putin and Co.) in jail... but instead they get acquitted: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45907655 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45907655 https://www.propublica.org/article/fighting-russian-mafia-networks-in-spain https://www.propublica.org/article/fighting-russian-mafia-ne...
- iagovar 7y agoThis information won't be useful to track any individual.
- spanxx 7y agoI'm sorry but this post seems like scaremongering. As long as data is not de-aggregated and de-anonymized there is no issue here. I see no relationship with the GPDR as this law applies to personal data and the agreement explicitly stated that data must be aggregated. As long as it is used to know people flow or for statistical purposes, I see no wrong here. The other political statements and comparisons he makes, well are unrelated and sincerely looks like political propaganda to me.
- iagovar 7y agoIt is, it's going to be part of the Census. I currently work for an spanish ISP, and I can tell you that this test will put a lot of stress in the ISPs network. Querying, for example, cellid for so many phones simultianeously is going to be a problem. Other data like IMSI and so on is not a problem because it's stored in a database. For people who is scared of this, ditch your phones because extracting your location, subscriber id and other info is, honestly, trivial. It is not to do at scale, but if someone wanted to spy on you and had access to the ISP network, be it via hacking into it (very difficult in the one I work for, but may be possible), or using a law, they can know where are you with very little effort.
- about_help 7y ago"As long as data is not de-aggregated and de-anonymized there is no issue here" Awfully hopeful there. "The other political statements and comparisons he makes, well are unrelated and sincerely looks like political propaganda to me." I would say the same about your assertions of innocence and presumption that the data can not be de-anonymized. If the "propaganda" is supporting user privacy I'd say you're on the wrong side of this discussion.
- spanxx 7y agoDo you have any idea about law in this matter? It is illegal to de-anonymize data without a court order.
- nudq 7y agoControlled compromise of privacy for the sake of scientific insight seems like a good idea, until you realize that we either get profoundly non-replicable junk "science", or continued and unlimited re-breach of privacy for the sake of replication. Neither is any good. I'm reminded of Raj Chetty who publishes papers based on exclusive access to IRS tax return data. (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/05/how-two-economists-got-direct-access-irs-tax-records https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/05/how-two-economists-g...) Not real science unless you can have access to that data, too. You can't.
- tvanantwerp 7y agoWhile I'm normally all for access to raw data used in research, that's pretty hard to do with IRS data without massively violating Americans' privacy and exposing them to identity theft. It's fair to be skeptical of anything using locked-up data, but I don't see a good way around the problem.
- foxfired 7y agoThe solution will be to have a slider that physically disconnects the networks. Slide it down and the hardware is no longer physically connected. The phone still have all it's no-connection features. Slide it up and you are back online. We cannot trust software to actually disconnect as advertised. It is not in the network operator's interest. Unfortunately, it is also not in the phone manufacturer's interest to have you disconnect. Wake up, this is only a dream.
- enriquto 7y agothere is the librem5 phone that has these physical switches
- cf498 7y agoAlso the Pinephone if i am not mistaken, though it will be a few more month till thats available.
- rm_-rf_slash 7y agoWe need the same for cameras and microphones, too.
- coldtea 7y agoWell, cameras just need you to block them.
- Havoc 7y agoFollowing the link on airplane mode: >“Every phone has two operating systems,” explains Gary S. Miliefsky, CEO of SnoopWall, “One that connects to cellular networks, and one that interfaces with the consumer. Airplane mode may only disable features in the consumer facing operating system, such as Android or iOS, but not in the OS used between the phone and the carrier network. A phone may be giving out a ‘ping’ and you’d never know it.” Surely that defeats the whole idea behind airplane mode. i.e. stop the phone from sending crap that (supposedly) messes with airplanes?
- Romanulus 7y agoYeah, they need to update that setting to "Data Harvesting Mode".
- AshamedCaptain 7y agoPhones affecting airplanes is already not that much of a risk (even if indeed existing), and besides, as the article claims, the phone might still just sent a periodic ping, which is going to be practicable unnoticeable for any equipment.
- coldtea 7y agoIf it's a signal it will be noticeable with a tool that scans the relevant bands. Trivially so. In what sense could it ever be "practicable unnoticeable", much less "for any equipment"?
- iamkroot 7y agoAgree, if the signal is strong enough to reach a cell tower there is no way you could hide it from someone who was looking for it.
- AshamedCaptain 7y agoI mean in the "affect airplanes" sense. Obviously it is distinguishable from noise because it has to be received...
- 7y ago
- 24gttghh 7y agoSolution: Faraday cage. They can't make radio waves break the laws of physics! (that I know of...)
- excalibur 7y agoBetter make sure it's off before you stick it in there, or it will be dead when you take it back out.
- pilsetnieks 7y agoWhy would a Faraday cage kill a phone? It's not EMP.
- tlb 7y agoSome (older) phones will burn a lot of power searching for a cell signal when there is none.
- coldtea 7y agoStill wouldn't do nothing except waste battery power. I had all kinds of older phones, and in older times 20-25 years ago there were tons of places with zero signal (villages, islands, places out of the city, national parks, and so on) and the phones survived just fine. That's as zero as in a faraday cage, as far as the phone is concerned -- no tower to talk to at all, 0 bars for hours or days on end.
- comius 7y agoHaving gps trajectrories and two locations in the city, like home and job address, it should be quite easy to find corresponding trajectory and thus deanonymising a single person. No need for imsi or any other data. Therefore to make data anonymous it should be encoded in terms of number of subscribers in given time and area. My guess would be it isn't
- ruuda 7y agoA few comments here claim that aggregated data is fine. An interesting read is [1]. It discusses how trajectories of individuals can be recovered from aggregated mobility data with high accuracy. It's a great read because it breaks down the approach into small logical steps, but the end result (recovering individual's trajectories from aggregated data) sounds bizarre at first. [1]: https://blog.acolyer.org/2017/05/15/trajectory-recovery-from-ash-user-privacy-is-not-preserved-in-aggregated-mobility-data/ https://blog.acolyer.org/2017/05/15/trajectory-recovery-from...
- autoexec 7y agoPeople are often able to get personally identifiable information from aggregated/anonymized data. At this point, I think people should be automatically skeptical that their personal habits are protected when a company claims they only collect/use/sell aggregated/anonymized data. In practice, it might not be protected at all.
- atemerev 7y agoSince October 14th, there are ongoing mass protests in Catalonia (a part of Spain with a strong pro-independence sentiment), demanding freedom for their political prisoners jailed by Madrid (for 9–13 years). Hundreds of thousands people are on the streets. Barely reported by media. Barcelona Airport was overtaken for one day. So yes, looks extremely convenient these days.
- harperlee 7y agoThe fact that a prisoner was a politician does not make him/her a political prisoner.
- atemerev 7y agoOK, so for what non-political crimes they were jailed then?
- enriquto 7y agoAnd most of the current prisoners are not politicians and have never been. Regarding the politicians, may these traitors rot in jail. They betrayed their people and surrendered themselves when everybody was on the streets ready to fight.
- pvaldes 7y ago[UPDATED. It seems that the recording will happen after the elections, not before, so apparently spying the political preferences of people would not be the motive (yet). I had removed those parts] Is easy to stablish a probable connection between this sudden need to watch all phones in relation to the disturbs in Catalonia coordinated by sms messages and apps. Would be trivial to connect the pool of "people that went to the place X at the day Y", and the part of the city or neighborhoods where they mainly go to sleep after the disturbs. Many other sensible things can be disclosed from that, like how many people came from Euskadi to join the disturbs for example, and if they joined to eat before in a special place). Nobody signed to accept to participate in this, and there is not a way that allow you to be excluded. Is totally "1984" level, is outrageous, breaks many red lines all "in your face european parlament", and somebody should pay for that.
- docuru 7y agoRIP privacy!
- throwawayisp 7y agoThis seems a bit exaggerated. I work for one of these ISPs, but I'm not involved in this project. GDPR explicitly states that no permission is required if the data is anonymised. The data shared with the INE will be movement of batches of at least 5000 people. The movements will be between 3500 zones. There are more than 60.000 cell phone towers in Spain, so they could have made the movements much more precise if they wanted (at the cost of anonymity of course). If less than 5000 people cross from a zone to another it will not be shared. No IMEI/IMSI/MSISDN will be shared. I understand that there might be concerns of de-anonymisation, but it makes no sense. If the Spanish government wanted to track someone they already can, with a court order. Spanish phone providers are required by law to store this data for 6 months minimum up to 2 years maximum. (https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-2007-18243 https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-2007-18243). The government is going to receive data from 4 working days, 1 weekend day, a holiday and two days in Summer. Tying this with Tsunami Democratic is a bit strange. There is an ongoing investigation, so they can already track people tied with the movement as long as they have some form of personal information (IMEI, IMSI, MSISDN). Honestly, a massive protest one of those days might throw off the statistics in Catalunya. And by the way, this data is already being sold to third parties for profit: https://www.orange.es/empresas/grandes-empresas/internet-of-things-big-data?internal_source=orange&internal_medium=homeGrandesEmpresas&internal_term=home+soluciones+internet+of+things+big+data https://www.orange.es/empresas/grandes-empresas/internet-of-... https://www.vodafone.es/c/empresas/grandes-clientes/es/soluciones/cloud-colaboracion/big-data-analytics/ https://www.vodafone.es/c/empresas/grandes-clientes/es/soluc... https://www.business-solutions.telefonica.com/en/products/big-data/business-insights/smart-steps/ https://www.business-solutions.telefonica.com/en/products/bi... Sometimes, unfortunately, it's being sold without anonymisation too and leaks have happened. Just one example in the USA: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nepxbz/i-gave-a-bounty-hunter-300-dollars-located-phone-microbilt-zumigo-tmobile https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nepxbz/i-gave-a-bounty-hu...
- pvaldes 7y agoAn interesting point is that they have yet the data of the phone owner, because is required by the new laws that you send they your name, phone number and your email in order to receive some notifications from the government. This has happened since the last two years or so.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]