13 ms·

Startpage is now owned by an advertising company

182 points by rahuldottech 7y ago

mikece 7y ago
So is it recommended to stop using Startpage? Use DuckDuckGo? Is there a way to roll your own to post on your own DigitalOcean/Linode/Docker hosting solution?
- doopfoopdoop 7y ago
  https://github.com/asciimoo/searx https://github.com/asciimoo/searx
  - onesmalluser 7y ago
    The problem with hosting your own instance of searx is that you will most likely be one of the only users and since the underlying search engine (Google, etc) knows where the traffic came from (your instance) they can pin it on you so you might as well just use Google directly. Also, I keep getting captcha errors when I try to use searx.
- larkeith 7y ago
  If you can find (or host) a good Searx instance, that's an option.
- onesmalluser 7y ago
  https://github.com/jivesearch/jivesearch https://github.com/jivesearch/jivesearch. I run my own instance with the crawler so I don't rely on Yandex (their default). I switched when DDG purged a lot of their !bangs. Even though I don't use the purged !bangs much I felt they were censoring.
paul7986 7y ago
Startpage uses Google's results yet does Google offer an API like Bing does?
- rahuldottech 7y ago
  Yes, Google does offer such a (paid) API, that is what Startpage uses.
  - paul7986 7y ago
    Anyone know how many other semi-known search engines are using it? Also, your searches are completely anonymous using any third party Goggle search engine?
    - wumpus 7y ago
      Every search engine box you see on the Internet is powered by google or bing, basically, with Yandex having a tiny piece. And part of System1's business is syndicating google/bing APIs.
- judge2020 7y ago
  Google keeps their search private, startpage uses a private API.
  - steve19 7y ago
    I don't think they would have lasted long using a private API.
    - ubercow13 7y ago
      It can be private but paid and supported simultaneously
    - wumpus 7y ago
      They pay for it. In fact the most common deal is to show both google search ads and google results, then the results are free and you get a cut of the ad revenue.
      - vruiz 7y ago
jammygit 7y ago
It isn’t exactly the ads that are the problem but the tracking. It is possible this is fine, but it seems likely to be... not fine Edit: definitely not-fine: > Startpage is now (partly?) owned by System1, a company which... > has developed a pre-targeting platform that identifies and unlocks consumer intent across channels including social, native, email, search, market research and lead generation rather than relying solely on what consumers enter into search boxes
- Startpage_rep 7y ago
  Hey, Startpage here. We appreciate your concern. We would be wary ourselves of outside investment in a company that we trust and depend on. Startpage leadership spent a lot of time considering who to bring on as an investor. The System1 funds will allow us to grow our global user base and bring private search to more people. To ensure that our mission and privacy practices do not change, the investment includes covenants that ensure Startpage’s founders in the Netherlands will retain complete control over all privacy-related decisions. If you’re interested, you can read more about the investment in this letter from our Founder and CEO Robert E.G. Beens: https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct3†1.jpg https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct3†1.jpg
jiofih 7y ago
What is Startpage?
- rahuldottech 7y ago
  A wrapper around Google search. Supposed to be: great results, no tracking, respect for privacy.
  - ghostly_s 7y ago
    Never heard of it. What's the advantage over DuckDuckGo?
    - xref 7y ago
      Not a pro or con: DDG uses Bing results, startpage uses Google results
      - Nicksil 7y ago
        EDIT: The comment I replied to here has since been changed. xref originally wrote: "DDG uses Bing results, startpage uses Google results" --- You haven't described an advantage with this reply. Or, at least, reasoning why you believe it's an advantage.
        unionpivo 7y ago
        Most people believe (at least as far as I know them), that google results are better than bing. Plus star page has super useful anonimized view. It's essentially anon proxy built into search page. It's useful if you have to go look trough doggy websites.
        Nicksil 7y ago
        >Most people believe (at least as far as I know them), that google results are better than bing. This doesn't help. A lot of people believe things which don't always hold up to scrutiny.
zubspace 7y ago
Maybe Qwant [1] is a good alternative? I'm interested what others think about it. It's European and they seem to respect privacy. I like their detailed FAQ [2]. According to Wikipedia they use their own indexing service but collaborate with the Bing ad network [3]. [1] https://www.qwant.com/ https://www.qwant.com/ [2] https://help.qwant.com/help/overview/how-does-qwant-make-money/ https://help.qwant.com/help/overview/how-does-qwant-make-mon... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwant
- wumpus 7y ago
  Qwant is powered by bing under the hood. Wikipedia is wrong about that. https://news.microsoft.com/europe/features/qwant-and-microsoft-announce-an-exclusive-partnership-for-a-unique-internet-research-experience/ https://news.microsoft.com/europe/features/qwant-and-microso... -- dated May 22, 2019
rasengan 7y ago
Private.sh [1] cryptographically protects your privacy. [1] https://private.sh https://private.sh
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
  I don't think private.sh can provide the kind of protection that they seem to imply is their goal; sure, they can encrypt your traffic in the browser, but unless the search engine(s) they use as a backend are the ones are decrypting it then private.sh controls the exit nodes and can MitM anything they want.
  - solarkraft 7y ago
    It's just marketing bullshit.
    - rasengan 7y ago
      The query is encrypted with the publickey of gigablast, clientside. Private.sh cannot see the query/search. And vice versa, the results are encrypted with the client's public key and thus can only be decrypted by the client!
  - mkl 7y ago
    Yes, the search engine they use (Gigablast) is the one decrypting. From the private.sh main page: > Every single search request from our website and extension is encrypted locally on the client and proxied through our service, stripping away your public IP address ensuring that only the search provider is able to decrypt and see your query without any knowledge of who you are. > The results are returned to you through our proxy and are rendered locally on your machine only using javascript running on your machine. I haven't used it, so I don't know what their results are like, but you seem to be mistaken about the privacy.
- solarkraft 7y ago
graaben 7y ago
I've worked with System1 in a previous job. One of their main products is ad arbitrage, which as far as I can tell adds zero (or negative) value to the average consumer's browsing experience. This is a company that only cares about extracting as much money as they can by finding new ways of showing you ads. As a side note - the whole digital advertising industry reminds me a little of the financial engineering on Wall Street of the last decade. Doesn't add any new value to society - and in many ways actually harms it - but makes so much money that companies build their whole strategy around it.
- friedman23 7y ago
  Why do you say it doesn't add value? I assume the targeting actually works and improves ad performance for advertisers?
  - mattigames 7y ago
    I see you omitted "to society" on purpose on your question (after the word "value")
    - friedman23 7y ago
      Many things exist that don't add value to "society", I'm going to stick to worrying about the value given to the people actually doing the purchasing thank you.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      But if it improves ad performance for the people advertising then it does provide value for society. If nobody knows about your product then nobody's going to use it, which would make your product worthless to society regardless how good it is. Just think about launching a product, but you aren't allowed to advertise it in any way. You can't even expect word of mouth, because somebody would have to actually have known it exists.
      - eropple 7y ago
maest 7y ago
How does Startpage make money? How does it plan to make money in the future?
- Startpage_rep 7y ago
  Startpage has been a profitable business since 2006. We make money with contextual ads (based solely on your search query) vs. other search engines that make money with behavioral ads (based on your personal profile and browsing history). These contextual ads appear on the top of each search results page. As a condition of the investment terms, this will always be our business model on search. The investment we received will be used to reach more users worldwide.
XiS 7y ago
Nice discussion going on at PTIO about delisting: https://forum.privacytools.io/t/candidate-for-delisting-discussion-startpage/284/3 https://forum.privacytools.io/t/candidate-for-delisting-disc...
GrayTextIsTruth 7y ago
Posted on Reddit, which is also an advertising company.
SHAKEDECADE 7y ago
I wonder what this means for StartMail’s (startpage’s email) clients?
- ValentineC 7y ago
  From the Reddit thread [1], StartMail is a separate company and wasn't part of the acquisition. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/di5rn3/startpage_is_now_owned_by_an_advertising_company/f3w9isn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/di5rn3/startpage_i...
  - Startpage_rep 7y ago
    Yes, that is correct.
freediver 7y ago
Every search engine that uses ads and affiliate links as primary method to monetize searches is in essence owned by advertising company which includes Google and DuckDuckGo.
Startpage_rep 7y ago
Hi Everyone, Startpage here. We are happy to answer any questions people have, please feel free to ask us. To start, we’ve addressed some existing comments and questions with the information below. I’d also suggest reading this open letter about the acquisition from Startpage Founder and CEO Robert E.G. Beens (https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct31.jpg https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct31.jpg). - To ensure that our mission and privacy practices do not change, the investment includes covenants that ensure Startpage’s founders in the Netherlands will retain complete control over all privacy-related decisions. - Robert still has final say over all product decisions, and Startpage will always be headquartered in the Netherlands. - System1 invested in Startpage because they recognize increasing consumer demand for privacy-focused tools, not because they plan to alter Startpage’s core mission in any way. - We will never compromise or weaken Startpage’s industry-leading privacy policy. - We will not depart from Startpage’s core business model, which has been profitable since 2006. We make money with contextual ads (based solely on your search query) vs. other search engines that make money with behavioral ads (based on your personal profile and browsing history). - The purpose of this investment is to allow Startpage to reach more users worldwide and advance our mission of making safe, private search available to everyone.
- gibblz 7y ago
  I’m a senior engineer at Startpage, and I can personally confirm all of the above. Our system is implemented in such a way that we never store a user's search query, IP address, or any other personally identifying information, and that will never change. If anyone is interested, I can answer specific questions about technical details.

182 points by rahuldottech 7y ago

So is it recommended to stop using Startpage? Use DuckDuckGo? Is there a way to roll your own to post on your own DigitalOcean/Linode/Docker hosting solution?

doopfoopdoop 7y ago
https://github.com/asciimoo/searx https://github.com/asciimoo/searx
- onesmalluser 7y ago
  The problem with hosting your own instance of searx is that you will most likely be one of the only users and since the underlying search engine (Google, etc) knows where the traffic came from (your instance) they can pin it on you so you might as well just use Google directly. Also, I keep getting captcha errors when I try to use searx.
larkeith 7y ago
If you can find (or host) a good Searx instance, that's an option.
onesmalluser 7y ago
https://github.com/jivesearch/jivesearch https://github.com/jivesearch/jivesearch. I run my own instance with the crawler so I don't rely on Yandex (their default). I switched when DDG purged a lot of their !bangs. Even though I don't use the purged !bangs much I felt they were censoring.

paul7986 7y ago

Startpage uses Google's results yet does Google offer an API like Bing does?

rahuldottech 7y ago
Yes, Google does offer such a (paid) API, that is what Startpage uses.
- paul7986 7y ago
  Anyone know how many other semi-known search engines are using it? Also, your searches are completely anonymous using any third party Goggle search engine?
  - wumpus 7y ago
    Every search engine box you see on the Internet is powered by google or bing, basically, with Yandex having a tiny piece. And part of System1's business is syndicating google/bing APIs.
judge2020 7y ago
Google keeps their search private, startpage uses a private API.
- steve19 7y ago
  I don't think they would have lasted long using a private API.
  - ubercow13 7y ago
    It can be private but paid and supported simultaneously
  - wumpus 7y ago
    They pay for it. In fact the most common deal is to show both google search ads and google results, then the results are free and you get a cut of the ad revenue.
    - vruiz 7y ago

jammygit 7y ago

It isn’t exactly the ads that are the problem but the tracking. It is possible this is fine, but it seems likely to be... not fine Edit: definitely not-fine: > Startpage is now (partly?) owned by System1, a company which... > has developed a pre-targeting platform that identifies and unlocks consumer intent across channels including social, native, email, search, market research and lead generation rather than relying solely on what consumers enter into search boxes

Startpage_rep 7y ago
Hey, Startpage here. We appreciate your concern. We would be wary ourselves of outside investment in a company that we trust and depend on. Startpage leadership spent a lot of time considering who to bring on as an investor. The System1 funds will allow us to grow our global user base and bring private search to more people. To ensure that our mission and privacy practices do not change, the investment includes covenants that ensure Startpage’s founders in the Netherlands will retain complete control over all privacy-related decisions. If you’re interested, you can read more about the investment in this letter from our Founder and CEO Robert E.G. Beens: https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct3†1.jpg https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct3†1.jpg

jiofih 7y ago

What is Startpage?

rahuldottech 7y ago
A wrapper around Google search. Supposed to be: great results, no tracking, respect for privacy.
- ghostly_s 7y ago
  Never heard of it. What's the advantage over DuckDuckGo?
  - xref 7y ago
    Not a pro or con: DDG uses Bing results, startpage uses Google results
    - Nicksil 7y ago
      EDIT: The comment I replied to here has since been changed. xref originally wrote: "DDG uses Bing results, startpage uses Google results" --- You haven't described an advantage with this reply. Or, at least, reasoning why you believe it's an advantage.
      - unionpivo 7y ago
        Most people believe (at least as far as I know them), that google results are better than bing. Plus star page has super useful anonimized view. It's essentially anon proxy built into search page. It's useful if you have to go look trough doggy websites.
        Nicksil 7y ago
        >Most people believe (at least as far as I know them), that google results are better than bing. This doesn't help. A lot of people believe things which don't always hold up to scrutiny.

zubspace 7y ago

Maybe Qwant [1] is a good alternative? I'm interested what others think about it. It's European and they seem to respect privacy. I like their detailed FAQ [2]. According to Wikipedia they use their own indexing service but collaborate with the Bing ad network [3]. [1] https://www.qwant.com/ https://www.qwant.com/ [2] https://help.qwant.com/help/overview/how-does-qwant-make-money/ https://help.qwant.com/help/overview/how-does-qwant-make-mon... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwant

wumpus 7y ago
Qwant is powered by bing under the hood. Wikipedia is wrong about that. https://news.microsoft.com/europe/features/qwant-and-microsoft-announce-an-exclusive-partnership-for-a-unique-internet-research-experience/ https://news.microsoft.com/europe/features/qwant-and-microso... -- dated May 22, 2019

rasengan 7y ago

Private.sh [1] cryptographically protects your privacy. [1] https://private.sh https://private.sh

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
I don't think private.sh can provide the kind of protection that they seem to imply is their goal; sure, they can encrypt your traffic in the browser, but unless the search engine(s) they use as a backend are the ones are decrypting it then private.sh controls the exit nodes and can MitM anything they want.
- solarkraft 7y ago
  It's just marketing bullshit.
  - rasengan 7y ago
    The query is encrypted with the publickey of gigablast, clientside. Private.sh cannot see the query/search. And vice versa, the results are encrypted with the client's public key and thus can only be decrypted by the client!
- mkl 7y ago
  Yes, the search engine they use (Gigablast) is the one decrypting. From the private.sh main page: > Every single search request from our website and extension is encrypted locally on the client and proxied through our service, stripping away your public IP address ensuring that only the search provider is able to decrypt and see your query without any knowledge of who you are. > The results are returned to you through our proxy and are rendered locally on your machine only using javascript running on your machine. I haven't used it, so I don't know what their results are like, but you seem to be mistaken about the privacy.
solarkraft 7y ago

graaben 7y ago

I've worked with System1 in a previous job. One of their main products is ad arbitrage, which as far as I can tell adds zero (or negative) value to the average consumer's browsing experience. This is a company that only cares about extracting as much money as they can by finding new ways of showing you ads. As a side note - the whole digital advertising industry reminds me a little of the financial engineering on Wall Street of the last decade. Doesn't add any new value to society - and in many ways actually harms it - but makes so much money that companies build their whole strategy around it.

friedman23 7y ago
Why do you say it doesn't add value? I assume the targeting actually works and improves ad performance for advertisers?
- mattigames 7y ago
  I see you omitted "to society" on purpose on your question (after the word "value")
  - friedman23 7y ago
    Many things exist that don't add value to "society", I'm going to stick to worrying about the value given to the people actually doing the purchasing thank you.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    But if it improves ad performance for the people advertising then it does provide value for society. If nobody knows about your product then nobody's going to use it, which would make your product worthless to society regardless how good it is. Just think about launching a product, but you aren't allowed to advertise it in any way. You can't even expect word of mouth, because somebody would have to actually have known it exists.
    - eropple 7y ago

maest 7y ago

How does Startpage make money? How does it plan to make money in the future?

Startpage_rep 7y ago
Startpage has been a profitable business since 2006. We make money with contextual ads (based solely on your search query) vs. other search engines that make money with behavioral ads (based on your personal profile and browsing history). These contextual ads appear on the top of each search results page. As a condition of the investment terms, this will always be our business model on search. The investment we received will be used to reach more users worldwide.

XiS 7y ago

Nice discussion going on at PTIO about delisting: https://forum.privacytools.io/t/candidate-for-delisting-discussion-startpage/284/3 https://forum.privacytools.io/t/candidate-for-delisting-disc...

GrayTextIsTruth 7y ago

Posted on Reddit, which is also an advertising company.

SHAKEDECADE 7y ago

I wonder what this means for StartMail’s (startpage’s email) clients?

ValentineC 7y ago
From the Reddit thread [1], StartMail is a separate company and wasn't part of the acquisition. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/di5rn3/startpage_is_now_owned_by_an_advertising_company/f3w9isn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/di5rn3/startpage_i...
- Startpage_rep 7y ago
  Yes, that is correct.

freediver 7y ago

Every search engine that uses ads and affiliate links as primary method to monetize searches is in essence owned by advertising company which includes Google and DuckDuckGo.

Startpage_rep 7y ago

Hi Everyone, Startpage here. We are happy to answer any questions people have, please feel free to ask us. To start, we’ve addressed some existing comments and questions with the information below. I’d also suggest reading this open letter about the acquisition from Startpage Founder and CEO Robert E.G. Beens (https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct31.jpg https://preview.redd.it/zher3ok6pct31.jpg). - To ensure that our mission and privacy practices do not change, the investment includes covenants that ensure Startpage’s founders in the Netherlands will retain complete control over all privacy-related decisions. - Robert still has final say over all product decisions, and Startpage will always be headquartered in the Netherlands. - System1 invested in Startpage because they recognize increasing consumer demand for privacy-focused tools, not because they plan to alter Startpage’s core mission in any way. - We will never compromise or weaken Startpage’s industry-leading privacy policy. - We will not depart from Startpage’s core business model, which has been profitable since 2006. We make money with contextual ads (based solely on your search query) vs. other search engines that make money with behavioral ads (based on your personal profile and browsing history). - The purpose of this investment is to allow Startpage to reach more users worldwide and advance our mission of making safe, private search available to everyone.

gibblz 7y ago
I’m a senior engineer at Startpage, and I can personally confirm all of the above. Our system is implemented in such a way that we never store a user's search query, IP address, or any other personally identifying information, and that will never change. If anyone is interested, I can answer specific questions about technical details.