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Since no one posted that, yet: Tor relies on the size the of its network to counteract blocks, prevent take overs, and naturally ensure stability as well as per

Since no one posted that, yet: Tor relies on the size the of its network to counteract blocks, prevent take overs, and naturally ensure stability as well as performance. You can either donate to various groups running Tor servers, the developers, or take part on your own. https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Tor https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Tor https://www.torservers.net/ https://www.torservers.net/ https://www.dfri.se/donera/ https://www.dfri.se/donera/ https://nos-oignons.net/ https://nos-oignons.net/ https://donate.torproject.org/ https://donate.torproject.org/ Also, as a side note, in countries where Tor access is actively inhibited, users may need to rely on bridges. https://bridges.torproject.org/ https://bridges.torproject.org/ https://blog.torproject.org/how-use-meek-pluggable-transport https://blog.torproject.org/how-use-meek-pluggable-transport https://snowflake.torproject.org/ https://snowflake.torproject.org/

blaser-waffle 7y ago
Is it worth it to donate, or to just pool a little cash and start your own? Like, how do I know any of those links aren't the NSA? I ask because I have 5-6 Raspberry Pis, a couple retired Supermicro boxes, and old Cisco gear that isn't doing much...
- LeifCarrotson 7y ago
  Donations are probably better, because while that hardware is helpful, it's the ISP connections that are hard to come by. If you host a Tor exit node on your home network connection, Comcast is likely going to shut down your service for abuse/TOS violations. Having some rack space in a datacenter is far more valuable and better supported by donations.
  - okcando 7y ago
    How does this use case differ from (legal) distributed file sharing, like Bittorrent, which people do at home all the time?
    - solarkraft 7y ago
      Exit nodes are the points at which traffic goes from the encrypted TOR network to the clear net, and since many people like to use TOR to do legally questionable things you will likely very quickly be flooded with law enforcement requests, if not just blocked by your provider.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - apecat 7y ago
      In terms of non-exit Tor relays, it doesn't. In fact, for anyone looking at your traffic, Tor relaying is opaque, unlike legal torrents. As for exits, you'll be dealing with abuse reports from countless parties, including the off-chance that someone sends a death threat through your exit and you have may to fend off law-enforcement that still hasn't gotten the memo on Tor. In countries, like the US where any police encounter might turn deadly, I'd highly advise against running exits at home. As a Tor exit operator, I can in fact honestly tell you not to run exits on production business networks, or basically anywhere where you're not prepared to be a recipient of a lot of unwanted attention.
      - zaarn 7y ago
        Even non-exit nodes can put you in a bad spot (my ISP didn't like it), you'll get blacklisted by quite a few places (because not everyone got the memo that middle nodes != exit nodes)
        apecat 7y ago
        Yeah. If your ISP is manned by dipshits, they won't like Tor relays, just because. It's also worth setting up a Tor relay to use a different external ip address. Because VPN/Procy whitelists employed by dumb web firewall products will temporarily blacklist all publically listed Tor relay IPs. Here's a typical residential setup: ISP-provided broadband modem in bridged mode + some sensible home router with security patches you should be using anyway and the Tor relay server connected to the modem with a non-managed switch (if needed). Please note that Bridges give help directly to individuals who can't access Tor, due to blockage in their home country. They don't use a lot of bandwidth and aren't listed publicly, so bad actors on the firewall market won't block them. So, if you only have one IP address available and you want to do the internet at large a huge solid, just run a Bridge. For anyone interested in running Tor relays, here's an intro to why your new box won't use all available bandwidth for a while https://blog.torproject.org/lifecycle-new-relay https://blog.torproject.org/lifecycle-new-relay
  - driverdan 7y ago
    The network needs both. Too much centralization is a threat to anonymity so it needs users running nodes. At the same time you shouldn't run an exit at home on a consumer connection. Relays are fine though.
    - snagglegaggle 7y ago
      Saying you shouldn't run an exit node at home is accepting that Tor has mainly fraudulent uses. More people need to run it from home so it becomes accepted as a normal Internet usecase.
      - LeifCarrotson 7y ago
        It doesn't have to be even close to "mainly fraudulent uses". If just 0.01% of users use it for illegal stuff that will get your home network connection shut down, and an exit node sees a thousand different users a month, then it would be unwise to host an exit node at home.
  - slenk 7y ago
    Also, an exit node WILL use all of your bandwidth. You're going to quickly hit those 1TB caps. When I was hosting a exit node I was getting over 50GB/day
    - Forbo 7y ago
      That's easily configurable: https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#BandwidthShaping https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#BandwidthSh... Also the "limiting bandwidth" section here: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/TorRelayGuide#Parttwo:technicalsetup https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/TorRelayGuide#...
- class4behavior 7y ago
  >Like, how do I know any of those links aren't the NSA? Well, I've only linked to communities listed by the Tor Project itself. Otherwise, the same way you would check whether HN or your local tea store is the NSA. You do your own research, run your own risk analysis, and if you want to stay sane, by default you give people the benefit of the doubt. Generally, it's best not to run Tor relays from home as services will start to blacklist your IP as a proxy. If you are going to be an exit node, then you should inform yourself about he legal challenges you might face, since you don't know what people will access with your IP address. https://blog.torproject.org/tips-running-exit-node https://blog.torproject.org/tips-running-exit-node https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/faq.html https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/faq.html Being an entry or middle-level node is less of a problem but some uncertainties remain, so this depends on your local laws.
  - zer0tonin 7y ago
    > by default you give people the benefit of the doubt I actually tend to assume websites like HN are the NSA or at least the NSA have read access to their databases. Maybe it's my tinfoil hat tendencies but instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt I would rather not give them any data I don't mind the NSA having.
    - ktm5j 7y ago
      Everyone has read access to HN.. there are no private messages that I'm aware of, anyone can search this site using google
      - cryptoz 7y ago
        HN contains a lot of information that isn't visible on the public web. Ban lists, point counts, user access history, etc. > Everyone has read access to HN No, not to their databases as OP is discussing. It would be definitely a crime if any of us had that info as it would imply we broke in and stole it - but OP is suggesting that they assume NSA already has it (a potentially paranoid but also reasonably fair thing to do, IMO). From a personnel standpoint, isn't Thiel on the board of HN/YC and doesn't Thiel have basically uncountable NSA/CIA/etc connections? I'm not saying Thiel has anything to do with HN's security - but clearly, saying HN's databases might be accessed by someone like CIA (while a board member of YC is active in sales & partnerships to CIA etc) isn't that crazy.
- driverdan 7y ago
  Both if possible. A Pi 3 can saturate its ethernet adapter (~50Mbps) running a Tor relay. It's reasonably straightforward to setup. You shouldn't run exit nodes from a home connection due to possible abuse. If a person uses it to do something illegal you may end up with law enforcement busting down your door. Relays are safe though.
  - MuffinFlavored 7y ago
    I thought the consensus was that law enforcement can "crack" Tor these days (a la tracing the illegal traffic back to the source, not just the exit node) Is this not the case, or is it not a black/white answer?
    - driverdan 7y ago
      No, that's not true. Tor's anonymity depends on distributed control of its nodes. If one entity, say a government org, controls a large portion of entry and exit nodes it may be able to trace some requests. That's an attack that has been known since the beginning though, it's not new.
    - LinuxBender 7y ago
      People will hack the sites that are proxied behind Tor .onion domains. Hacking a site is also a crime, so you won't find too many documents revealing how a crime network was exposed. Instead, they gather data from the hacked servers and hand it over as anonymous tips. Tor is just a proxy. A fancy proxy that uses onion routing, but a proxy nonetheless. Think of it as a CDN that does not have to hand over customer details because they have plausible deniability about who you are. Unlike commercial CDN's however, Tor does not try to prevent hacking. That exercise is left to the people running the servers that Tor is routing to. As it turns out, some criminals may be lazy or inept.
    - sp332 7y ago
      https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#AttacksOnOnionRouting https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#AttacksOnOn... It's not 100%, but the more of the connection your attacker can see, the worse your odds. If you're in the USA and you're using nodes in the Five Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes and you're being tracked by the NSA, they might be able to see everything. Maybe. Also check point #4 on this answer https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#EverybodyARelay https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#EverybodyAR...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- vinniejames 7y ago
  The number of machines you have doesn't matter nearly as much as unique IP addresses, as far as network security is concerned
- myrandomcomment 7y ago
  What is wrong with this picture.. that the NSA is used as the villain vs. getting around the great firewall in China?
- sasnfbi1234 7y ago
  Well it’s a open project of the naval intelligence unit and it’s primary designed case was a deep cover operative in foreign countries reporting back info to the CIA, etc . The (non CIA ) people who use it primarily act as traffic in order to improve the security for operatives . Your Mileage May very
  - edm0nd 7y ago
    The CIA actually has its own v3 onion, http://ciadotgov4sjwlzihbbgxnqg3xiyrg7so2r2o3lt5wz5ypk4sxyjstad.onion/ http://ciadotgov4sjwlzihbbgxnqg3xiyrg7so2r2o3lt5wz5ypk4sxyjs...
ur-whale 7y ago
The real question is the kind of liability you take on when running a tor node on a machine that "belongs" to you (for some definition of belong). Another is to find a place that will agree to power your machine and allow it to hook in to the ethernet if it runs a tor node. At any rate, running a tor node isn't as simple as running apt-get.
- GoblinSlayer 7y ago
  BBC fights censorship in China, you would do the same by running a tor node.
  - smrq 7y ago
    When the secret police show up at your door, be sure to tell them that. I'm sure they will leave you alone.
  - JCharante 7y ago
    I wonder what other places the BBC is blocked in. I know there's a DNS block in Viet Nam.
    - DarkmSparks 7y ago
      Unfortunately not everywhere. Dishonest war mongering scum entirely infested by project mockingbird. Not to mention the undying support for the family the US literally went to war with to escape the grasp of and celebrates winning every single year. (aka independence day) A few oddball stories about Muslims artists inspired by the female body (I kid you not) https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-50101358/art-starts-conversations-about-being-a-black-muslim-woman https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-50101358/art-starts-conv... Does not make up for the blood on their hands.
- thisisnico 7y ago
  Is it possible to operate a TOR node through a corporate entity? The corporation assumes liability as does insurance.
pmarreck 7y ago
How do I know that my computers won’t be used to traffic child porn, if I donate a server and some bandwidth?
- proto-n 7y ago
  I believe you can choose to be an exit relay or a middle relay. A middle relay only connects to other relays, it does not allow "outgoing" connections, i.e. you won't appear to be browsing child porn from the outside if that's what you mean. If you mean that you don't want to relay traffic that carries child porn, than you can't do that, since you can't see what you are relaying (and even if you did, you'd need to automatically recognize it which is not easy afaik).
- papreclip 7y ago
  They almost certainly will
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  You can't. It creates an interesting moral problem. If people who view such material are in the wrong because they support the harm it causes, then are not people who support Tor in general also guilty of the same? Yes, they have more noble reasons for doing so, but do the ends justify the means, especially when dealing with such a topic?
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > If people who view such material are in the wrong because they support the harm it causes, then are not people who support Tor in general also guilty of the same? How is this any different than FedEx or USPS? They don't read your mail to see what it is. To a near certainty at least some of what they deliver contains child pornography. And what about roads? I bet child pornographers sometimes use roads for child pornography related purposes. Does that mean we're all complicit as taxpayers? Or maybe it's that the child pornographers are the guilty parties and common carriers are not the police.
    - 7y ago
throwaway8491 7y ago
You could also find a relay family, email their contact information, and offer to donate on Tor's Metrics page: https://metrics.torproject.org/rs.html#toprelays https://metrics.torproject.org/rs.html#toprelays
swirepe 7y ago
It can be as easy as sudo snap install tor-middle-relay
make3 7y ago
legal question here for someone who knows what they're doing, if you run a node and illegal activity is performed, are you complicit to the illegal activity?
- flatiron 7y ago
  Answered in tors faq. No.
- jdnenej 7y ago
  Obviously not all of the time because otherwise ISPs, VPNs, postal services could not run. I think what is more of an issue is constantly having to prove you were not involved when police come investigate.

blaser-waffle 7y ago

Is it worth it to donate, or to just pool a little cash and start your own? Like, how do I know any of those links aren't the NSA? I ask because I have 5-6 Raspberry Pis, a couple retired Supermicro boxes, and old Cisco gear that isn't doing much...

LeifCarrotson 7y ago
Donations are probably better, because while that hardware is helpful, it's the ISP connections that are hard to come by. If you host a Tor exit node on your home network connection, Comcast is likely going to shut down your service for abuse/TOS violations. Having some rack space in a datacenter is far more valuable and better supported by donations.
- okcando 7y ago
  How does this use case differ from (legal) distributed file sharing, like Bittorrent, which people do at home all the time?
  - solarkraft 7y ago
    Exit nodes are the points at which traffic goes from the encrypted TOR network to the clear net, and since many people like to use TOR to do legally questionable things you will likely very quickly be flooded with law enforcement requests, if not just blocked by your provider.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - apecat 7y ago
    In terms of non-exit Tor relays, it doesn't. In fact, for anyone looking at your traffic, Tor relaying is opaque, unlike legal torrents. As for exits, you'll be dealing with abuse reports from countless parties, including the off-chance that someone sends a death threat through your exit and you have may to fend off law-enforcement that still hasn't gotten the memo on Tor. In countries, like the US where any police encounter might turn deadly, I'd highly advise against running exits at home. As a Tor exit operator, I can in fact honestly tell you not to run exits on production business networks, or basically anywhere where you're not prepared to be a recipient of a lot of unwanted attention.
    - zaarn 7y ago
      Even non-exit nodes can put you in a bad spot (my ISP didn't like it), you'll get blacklisted by quite a few places (because not everyone got the memo that middle nodes != exit nodes)
      - apecat 7y ago
        Yeah. If your ISP is manned by dipshits, they won't like Tor relays, just because. It's also worth setting up a Tor relay to use a different external ip address. Because VPN/Procy whitelists employed by dumb web firewall products will temporarily blacklist all publically listed Tor relay IPs. Here's a typical residential setup: ISP-provided broadband modem in bridged mode + some sensible home router with security patches you should be using anyway and the Tor relay server connected to the modem with a non-managed switch (if needed). Please note that Bridges give help directly to individuals who can't access Tor, due to blockage in their home country. They don't use a lot of bandwidth and aren't listed publicly, so bad actors on the firewall market won't block them. So, if you only have one IP address available and you want to do the internet at large a huge solid, just run a Bridge. For anyone interested in running Tor relays, here's an intro to why your new box won't use all available bandwidth for a while https://blog.torproject.org/lifecycle-new-relay https://blog.torproject.org/lifecycle-new-relay
- driverdan 7y ago
  The network needs both. Too much centralization is a threat to anonymity so it needs users running nodes. At the same time you shouldn't run an exit at home on a consumer connection. Relays are fine though.
  - snagglegaggle 7y ago
    Saying you shouldn't run an exit node at home is accepting that Tor has mainly fraudulent uses. More people need to run it from home so it becomes accepted as a normal Internet usecase.
    - LeifCarrotson 7y ago
      It doesn't have to be even close to "mainly fraudulent uses". If just 0.01% of users use it for illegal stuff that will get your home network connection shut down, and an exit node sees a thousand different users a month, then it would be unwise to host an exit node at home.
- slenk 7y ago
  Also, an exit node WILL use all of your bandwidth. You're going to quickly hit those 1TB caps. When I was hosting a exit node I was getting over 50GB/day
  - Forbo 7y ago
    That's easily configurable: https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#BandwidthShaping https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#BandwidthSh... Also the "limiting bandwidth" section here: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/TorRelayGuide#Parttwo:technicalsetup https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/TorRelayGuide#...
class4behavior 7y ago
>Like, how do I know any of those links aren't the NSA? Well, I've only linked to communities listed by the Tor Project itself. Otherwise, the same way you would check whether HN or your local tea store is the NSA. You do your own research, run your own risk analysis, and if you want to stay sane, by default you give people the benefit of the doubt. Generally, it's best not to run Tor relays from home as services will start to blacklist your IP as a proxy. If you are going to be an exit node, then you should inform yourself about he legal challenges you might face, since you don't know what people will access with your IP address. https://blog.torproject.org/tips-running-exit-node https://blog.torproject.org/tips-running-exit-node https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/faq.html https://www.eff.org/torchallenge/faq.html Being an entry or middle-level node is less of a problem but some uncertainties remain, so this depends on your local laws.
- zer0tonin 7y ago
  > by default you give people the benefit of the doubt I actually tend to assume websites like HN are the NSA or at least the NSA have read access to their databases. Maybe it's my tinfoil hat tendencies but instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt I would rather not give them any data I don't mind the NSA having.
  - ktm5j 7y ago
    Everyone has read access to HN.. there are no private messages that I'm aware of, anyone can search this site using google
    - cryptoz 7y ago
      HN contains a lot of information that isn't visible on the public web. Ban lists, point counts, user access history, etc. > Everyone has read access to HN No, not to their databases as OP is discussing. It would be definitely a crime if any of us had that info as it would imply we broke in and stole it - but OP is suggesting that they assume NSA already has it (a potentially paranoid but also reasonably fair thing to do, IMO). From a personnel standpoint, isn't Thiel on the board of HN/YC and doesn't Thiel have basically uncountable NSA/CIA/etc connections? I'm not saying Thiel has anything to do with HN's security - but clearly, saying HN's databases might be accessed by someone like CIA (while a board member of YC is active in sales & partnerships to CIA etc) isn't that crazy.
driverdan 7y ago
Both if possible. A Pi 3 can saturate its ethernet adapter (~50Mbps) running a Tor relay. It's reasonably straightforward to setup. You shouldn't run exit nodes from a home connection due to possible abuse. If a person uses it to do something illegal you may end up with law enforcement busting down your door. Relays are safe though.
- MuffinFlavored 7y ago
  I thought the consensus was that law enforcement can "crack" Tor these days (a la tracing the illegal traffic back to the source, not just the exit node) Is this not the case, or is it not a black/white answer?
  - driverdan 7y ago
    No, that's not true. Tor's anonymity depends on distributed control of its nodes. If one entity, say a government org, controls a large portion of entry and exit nodes it may be able to trace some requests. That's an attack that has been known since the beginning though, it's not new.
  - LinuxBender 7y ago
    People will hack the sites that are proxied behind Tor .onion domains. Hacking a site is also a crime, so you won't find too many documents revealing how a crime network was exposed. Instead, they gather data from the hacked servers and hand it over as anonymous tips. Tor is just a proxy. A fancy proxy that uses onion routing, but a proxy nonetheless. Think of it as a CDN that does not have to hand over customer details because they have plausible deniability about who you are. Unlike commercial CDN's however, Tor does not try to prevent hacking. That exercise is left to the people running the servers that Tor is routing to. As it turns out, some criminals may be lazy or inept.
  - sp332 7y ago
    https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#AttacksOnOnionRouting https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#AttacksOnOn... It's not 100%, but the more of the connection your attacker can see, the worse your odds. If you're in the USA and you're using nodes in the Five Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes and you're being tracked by the NSA, they might be able to see everything. Maybe. Also check point #4 on this answer https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#EverybodyARelay https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/faq.html.en#EverybodyAR...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
vinniejames 7y ago
The number of machines you have doesn't matter nearly as much as unique IP addresses, as far as network security is concerned
myrandomcomment 7y ago
What is wrong with this picture.. that the NSA is used as the villain vs. getting around the great firewall in China?
sasnfbi1234 7y ago
Well it’s a open project of the naval intelligence unit and it’s primary designed case was a deep cover operative in foreign countries reporting back info to the CIA, etc . The (non CIA ) people who use it primarily act as traffic in order to improve the security for operatives . Your Mileage May very
- edm0nd 7y ago
  The CIA actually has its own v3 onion, http://ciadotgov4sjwlzihbbgxnqg3xiyrg7so2r2o3lt5wz5ypk4sxyjstad.onion/ http://ciadotgov4sjwlzihbbgxnqg3xiyrg7so2r2o3lt5wz5ypk4sxyjs...

ur-whale 7y ago

The real question is the kind of liability you take on when running a tor node on a machine that "belongs" to you (for some definition of belong). Another is to find a place that will agree to power your machine and allow it to hook in to the ethernet if it runs a tor node. At any rate, running a tor node isn't as simple as running apt-get.

GoblinSlayer 7y ago
BBC fights censorship in China, you would do the same by running a tor node.
- smrq 7y ago
  When the secret police show up at your door, be sure to tell them that. I'm sure they will leave you alone.
- JCharante 7y ago
  I wonder what other places the BBC is blocked in. I know there's a DNS block in Viet Nam.
  - DarkmSparks 7y ago
    Unfortunately not everywhere. Dishonest war mongering scum entirely infested by project mockingbird. Not to mention the undying support for the family the US literally went to war with to escape the grasp of and celebrates winning every single year. (aka independence day) A few oddball stories about Muslims artists inspired by the female body (I kid you not) https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-50101358/art-starts-conversations-about-being-a-black-muslim-woman https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-50101358/art-starts-conv... Does not make up for the blood on their hands.
thisisnico 7y ago
Is it possible to operate a TOR node through a corporate entity? The corporation assumes liability as does insurance.

pmarreck 7y ago

How do I know that my computers won’t be used to traffic child porn, if I donate a server and some bandwidth?

proto-n 7y ago
I believe you can choose to be an exit relay or a middle relay. A middle relay only connects to other relays, it does not allow "outgoing" connections, i.e. you won't appear to be browsing child porn from the outside if that's what you mean. If you mean that you don't want to relay traffic that carries child porn, than you can't do that, since you can't see what you are relaying (and even if you did, you'd need to automatically recognize it which is not easy afaik).
papreclip 7y ago
They almost certainly will
SkyBelow 7y ago
You can't. It creates an interesting moral problem. If people who view such material are in the wrong because they support the harm it causes, then are not people who support Tor in general also guilty of the same? Yes, they have more noble reasons for doing so, but do the ends justify the means, especially when dealing with such a topic?
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > If people who view such material are in the wrong because they support the harm it causes, then are not people who support Tor in general also guilty of the same? How is this any different than FedEx or USPS? They don't read your mail to see what it is. To a near certainty at least some of what they deliver contains child pornography. And what about roads? I bet child pornographers sometimes use roads for child pornography related purposes. Does that mean we're all complicit as taxpayers? Or maybe it's that the child pornographers are the guilty parties and common carriers are not the police.
  - 7y ago

throwaway8491 7y ago

You could also find a relay family, email their contact information, and offer to donate on Tor's Metrics page: https://metrics.torproject.org/rs.html#toprelays https://metrics.torproject.org/rs.html#toprelays

swirepe 7y ago

It can be as easy as sudo snap install tor-middle-relay

make3 7y ago

legal question here for someone who knows what they're doing, if you run a node and illegal activity is performed, are you complicit to the illegal activity?

flatiron 7y ago
Answered in tors faq. No.
jdnenej 7y ago
Obviously not all of the time because otherwise ISPs, VPNs, postal services could not run. I think what is more of an issue is constantly having to prove you were not involved when police come investigate.