8 ms·

I don't understand the obsession with VPN providers. Funneling all your Internet access through a single entity no matter where you connect from just seems like

I don't understand the obsession with VPN providers. Funneling all your Internet access through a single entity no matter where you connect from just seems like a fundamentally bad idea to me, especially if that entity's business is getting people to funnel all their traffic through, making them a juicy target for governments or hackers.

steveeq1 7y ago
Because for certain types of things, like pirating movies, it's good enough.
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  It seems a bit strange to me that you'd want to hide your movie pirating from your ISP but are happy for your VPN provider to know about it.
  - sixothree 7y ago
    I think it is more of a matter of hiding your local ip address from other torrent users.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      What's the purpose of that? Genuine question, I'm trying to understand the threat model of another torrent user seeing the IP address that is currently allocated to your router. Is this related to those letters that people sometimes get sent threatening legal action for torrenting?
      - sixothree 7y ago
        quite simply evading copyright strikes or legal filings. I don't know which providers still disconnect your internet after 3 strikes. But I am guessing that's the "threat" here.
  - Fezzik 7y ago
    Any (large?) ISP will report your torrenting and/or terminate your internet usage if you torrent anything they deem copyrightable. Both Comcast and Spectrum do this, at least. Edit, to add: No VPNs do this.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      OK, I was not aware of this. I have been known to occasionally torrent things (not just Linux distros!) and having done this semi-regularly while living in four different countries I'm yet to hear anything from any ISP about it, but I am sure there are places where it's taken more seriously.
    - XJ6 7y ago
      > No VPNs do this. Yet.
    - big_chungus 7y ago
      > No VPNs do this I got a nastygram from the hosting provider I used.
    - gruez 7y ago
      >Edit, to add: No VPNs do this. counter-example: https://forum.goldenfrog.com/t/no-longer-feeling-private-after-copyright-notice/2872 https://forum.goldenfrog.com/t/no-longer-feeling-private-aft...
      - WillPostForFood 7y ago
        If you read the last message in the thread, they no longer log IP. At the time the user originally posted his complaint, they did.
    - jiveturkey 7y ago
      They don't. What you're describing would take them out of common carrier status and make their business unworkable. What they do is respond to notices from copyright holders. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/07/major-isps-agree-to-six-strikes-copyright-enforcement-plan/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/07/major-isps-agree...
  - elbrian 7y ago
    Who said anything about being happy about a VPN provider knowing anything? It's about choosing between the lesser of two evils.
sixothree 7y ago
I am guessing #1 is mot wanting your internet provider (eg. AT&T) knowing what you are doing, then Netflix, Torrents, getting better deals on tickets and such, maybe activities of questionable legality? Personally, I don't like the idea of my mobile provider profiting off knowing which applications I am using and what sites I visit.
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  I don't understand being unhappy with your ISP knowing these things, but being fine with your VPN provider knowing them.
  - rglullis 7y ago
    It is much easier to change VPN provider than your ISP.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      What does that have to do with them knowing what websites you visit?
      - gruez 7y ago
        The implication is that if they're doing shady shit, you can easily switch, in contrast to ISPs.
        xorcist 7y ago
        On the other hand you will have lesser knowledge of what shady things your VPN provider does.
  - sauwan 7y ago
    Because it's easy to change a VPN provider if you don't like their actions, but most of us are stuck with an ISP and have no control over what they do with our data?
wool_gather 7y ago
I use one when I have to connect to a public access point, or really any network that's not owned by someone I know and trust. It's not a perfect privacy/security plan -- you're right that I can't completely trust the VPN provider either -- it's just better than the alternative.
- corford 7y ago
  Try Warp from Cloudflare. Does the same thing but easier to trust versus some outfit like NordVPN
lijogdfljk 7y ago
Well, you're funneling your traffic through a single entity in almost all cases, right? So I view it more as, who do I distrust more? My ISP or a VPN? I don't use a VPN provider, but it's tempting as I don't trust my ISP at all.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 7y ago
  One very explicit reason to not trust your ISP with your internet traffic is that since 2017 [1], they are allowed by Congress to sell your internet history. As a cherry on top, they were also the ones that successfully lobbied the government to allow that in the first place [2]. [1] https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2017/03/house-representatives-votes-215-205-away-broadband-privacy-allow-isps-sell-private-internet-history/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2017/03/house-rep... [2] https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2017/02/internet-service-provider-isp-lobbied-fcc-permission-spy/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2017/02/internet-...
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    To be fair, they can't actually see more than hostnames & IP addresses (assuming the use of TLS, which is becoming ubiquitous), so implying that they sell your "Internet history" makes it sound worse than it is. I've always assumed VPN providers sell whatever data they can too.
    - nvrspyx 7y ago
      I’m not a network expert, but doesn’t TLS just cover your connection with a specific website? Since your IPS is often also your DNS, can’t they still see which specific websites you’re trying to connect to? Wouldn’t TLS just obfuscate what you’re specifically sending to and receiving from that site? I’m under the impression that my ISP can (and probably does) see every website I visit, which is in the least browsing history. I also remember that Comcast did (and might still do) inject code onto websites to display a “pop-up” indicating that you’re reaching or have reached your datacap. It would even pop up on Steam because most of Steam is really just a webview. I’m not sure exactly how they did/do that. Again, I’m not a network or security expert, so I’m not really sure of how TLS protects your internet history, which I take to mean a list of websites you visit and when.
swebs 7y ago
>Funneling all your Internet access through a single entity no matter where you connect from just seems like a fundamentally bad idea to me, You're already doing that with DNS servers. At least VPN providers make the claim that they'll protect you.
jjkaczor 7y ago
Sigh - just because one has a VPN, doesn't mean it has to be used all the time. My NAS device, uses a VPN - my other machines do not. My laptop, uses a VPN when I am travelling and using wifi from unknown sources (i.e. coffee shops, airports, etc.)
rsync 7y ago
"I don't understand the obsession with VPN providers. Funneling all your Internet access through a single entity no matter where you connect from just seems like a fundamentally bad idea to me, especially if that entity's business is getting people to funnel all their traffic through, making them a juicy target for governments or hackers." Agreed - especially when it is so very, very cheap and easy to fire up a handful of VMs - around the world - and run your endpoints any way you like. By far my preferred technology is 'sshuttle'[1] which allows you to use any host, anywhere, running ssh as a VPN endpoint. That cuts the setup time for your VMs down to almost zero. [1] https://github.com/sshuttle https://github.com/sshuttle
- novok 7y ago
  You can fire up VMs, but then issue becomes the VM provider, which definitely has their own logs. Doing torrents through a VPN you setup on a VM provider usually gets the automated emails being forwarded to you.
octosphere 7y ago
> Funneling all your Internet access through a single entity You don't have to funnel it all, only data crossing hostile networks like free wifi hotspots (The only real use-case for VPNs in the first place). Alongside this is choice of geolocation so you can watch things like HBO even when in Europe.
Grimm665 7y ago
Regardless of anonymity or privacy, my ISP almost certainly deprioritizes some traffic (video), so a VPN at least ensures I can use my full bandwidth for whatever I want to access on the Internet.

steveeq1 7y ago

Because for certain types of things, like pirating movies, it's good enough.

_-___________-_ 7y ago
It seems a bit strange to me that you'd want to hide your movie pirating from your ISP but are happy for your VPN provider to know about it.
- sixothree 7y ago
  I think it is more of a matter of hiding your local ip address from other torrent users.
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    What's the purpose of that? Genuine question, I'm trying to understand the threat model of another torrent user seeing the IP address that is currently allocated to your router. Is this related to those letters that people sometimes get sent threatening legal action for torrenting?
    - sixothree 7y ago
      quite simply evading copyright strikes or legal filings. I don't know which providers still disconnect your internet after 3 strikes. But I am guessing that's the "threat" here.
- Fezzik 7y ago
  Any (large?) ISP will report your torrenting and/or terminate your internet usage if you torrent anything they deem copyrightable. Both Comcast and Spectrum do this, at least. Edit, to add: No VPNs do this.
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    OK, I was not aware of this. I have been known to occasionally torrent things (not just Linux distros!) and having done this semi-regularly while living in four different countries I'm yet to hear anything from any ISP about it, but I am sure there are places where it's taken more seriously.
  - XJ6 7y ago
    > No VPNs do this. Yet.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    > No VPNs do this I got a nastygram from the hosting provider I used.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >Edit, to add: No VPNs do this. counter-example: https://forum.goldenfrog.com/t/no-longer-feeling-private-after-copyright-notice/2872 https://forum.goldenfrog.com/t/no-longer-feeling-private-aft...
    - WillPostForFood 7y ago
      If you read the last message in the thread, they no longer log IP. At the time the user originally posted his complaint, they did.
  - jiveturkey 7y ago
    They don't. What you're describing would take them out of common carrier status and make their business unworkable. What they do is respond to notices from copyright holders. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/07/major-isps-agree-to-six-strikes-copyright-enforcement-plan/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/07/major-isps-agree...
- elbrian 7y ago
  Who said anything about being happy about a VPN provider knowing anything? It's about choosing between the lesser of two evils.

sixothree 7y ago

I am guessing #1 is mot wanting your internet provider (eg. AT&T) knowing what you are doing, then Netflix, Torrents, getting better deals on tickets and such, maybe activities of questionable legality? Personally, I don't like the idea of my mobile provider profiting off knowing which applications I am using and what sites I visit.

_-___________-_ 7y ago
I don't understand being unhappy with your ISP knowing these things, but being fine with your VPN provider knowing them.
- rglullis 7y ago
  It is much easier to change VPN provider than your ISP.
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    What does that have to do with them knowing what websites you visit?
    - gruez 7y ago
      The implication is that if they're doing shady shit, you can easily switch, in contrast to ISPs.
      - xorcist 7y ago
        On the other hand you will have lesser knowledge of what shady things your VPN provider does.
- sauwan 7y ago
  Because it's easy to change a VPN provider if you don't like their actions, but most of us are stuck with an ISP and have no control over what they do with our data?

wool_gather 7y ago

I use one when I have to connect to a public access point, or really any network that's not owned by someone I know and trust. It's not a perfect privacy/security plan -- you're right that I can't completely trust the VPN provider either -- it's just better than the alternative.

corford 7y ago
Try Warp from Cloudflare. Does the same thing but easier to trust versus some outfit like NordVPN

lijogdfljk 7y ago

Well, you're funneling your traffic through a single entity in almost all cases, right? So I view it more as, who do I distrust more? My ISP or a VPN? I don't use a VPN provider, but it's tempting as I don't trust my ISP at all.

bitxbitxbitcoin 7y ago
One very explicit reason to not trust your ISP with your internet traffic is that since 2017 [1], they are allowed by Congress to sell your internet history. As a cherry on top, they were also the ones that successfully lobbied the government to allow that in the first place [2]. [1] https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2017/03/house-representatives-votes-215-205-away-broadband-privacy-allow-isps-sell-private-internet-history/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2017/03/house-rep... [2] https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2017/02/internet-service-provider-isp-lobbied-fcc-permission-spy/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2017/02/internet-...
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  To be fair, they can't actually see more than hostnames & IP addresses (assuming the use of TLS, which is becoming ubiquitous), so implying that they sell your "Internet history" makes it sound worse than it is. I've always assumed VPN providers sell whatever data they can too.
  - nvrspyx 7y ago
    I’m not a network expert, but doesn’t TLS just cover your connection with a specific website? Since your IPS is often also your DNS, can’t they still see which specific websites you’re trying to connect to? Wouldn’t TLS just obfuscate what you’re specifically sending to and receiving from that site? I’m under the impression that my ISP can (and probably does) see every website I visit, which is in the least browsing history. I also remember that Comcast did (and might still do) inject code onto websites to display a “pop-up” indicating that you’re reaching or have reached your datacap. It would even pop up on Steam because most of Steam is really just a webview. I’m not sure exactly how they did/do that. Again, I’m not a network or security expert, so I’m not really sure of how TLS protects your internet history, which I take to mean a list of websites you visit and when.

swebs 7y ago

>Funneling all your Internet access through a single entity no matter where you connect from just seems like a fundamentally bad idea to me, You're already doing that with DNS servers. At least VPN providers make the claim that they'll protect you.

jjkaczor 7y ago

Sigh - just because one has a VPN, doesn't mean it has to be used all the time. My NAS device, uses a VPN - my other machines do not. My laptop, uses a VPN when I am travelling and using wifi from unknown sources (i.e. coffee shops, airports, etc.)

rsync 7y ago

"I don't understand the obsession with VPN providers. Funneling all your Internet access through a single entity no matter where you connect from just seems like a fundamentally bad idea to me, especially if that entity's business is getting people to funnel all their traffic through, making them a juicy target for governments or hackers." Agreed - especially when it is so very, very cheap and easy to fire up a handful of VMs - around the world - and run your endpoints any way you like. By far my preferred technology is 'sshuttle'[1] which allows you to use any host, anywhere, running ssh as a VPN endpoint. That cuts the setup time for your VMs down to almost zero. [1] https://github.com/sshuttle https://github.com/sshuttle

novok 7y ago
You can fire up VMs, but then issue becomes the VM provider, which definitely has their own logs. Doing torrents through a VPN you setup on a VM provider usually gets the automated emails being forwarded to you.

octosphere 7y ago

> Funneling all your Internet access through a single entity You don't have to funnel it all, only data crossing hostile networks like free wifi hotspots (The only real use-case for VPNs in the first place). Alongside this is choice of geolocation so you can watch things like HBO even when in Europe.

Grimm665 7y ago

Regardless of anonymity or privacy, my ISP almost certainly deprioritizes some traffic (video), so a VPN at least ensures I can use my full bandwidth for whatever I want to access on the Internet.