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As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to ma

• wongarsu 7y ago
  At my startup we did a round of "come in for an interview, pass FizzBuzz on a whiteboard, if you passed FizzBuzz you can come back for a 4 hour trial where you solve a small task representative of normal work in our normal work environment". We only hired students for 10-20 hours per week, so fairly low risk for both sides. My main takeaway from that was that the actual talking was close to useless for judging candidates. One of the best people we hired looked horrible in the interview, while some others were great at talking about themselves but were at best mediocre otherwise.
  • m0zg 7y ago
    >> great at talking about themselves but >> were at best mediocre otherwise Happens all the time. There's simply no way to judge intrinsic motivation one may or may not have for the job, and without that even a smart person will do the bare minimum to not get fired. Which is not much at all, at most places.
    • wongarsu 7y ago
      There are more reasons than that to perform good, I guess that's what the classic "where do you see yourself in 5 years" is trying to judge. But in general this is a problem, yes. More importantly, the fact that FizzBuzz is used to the point of being a cliche is already admitting that given just a CV and a verbal interview we are unable to reliable judge if a person can even program at all.
      • rhizome 7y ago
        I like how it's always that the hire is to blame for their skill level in the organization once they are hired. How come we don't ask whether companies know how to hire? Like, publicizing firing rates, turnover, that kind of thing. I mean, I know why, but it's never a part of the rubric. "We stopped using talk interviews and our retention went way up. We used to see 1/3 of our hires quit within two months of their first salary review." This is probably a more reliable approach the more a company promotes from within, and my sense is that many-if-not-most startups do not.
  • Retric 7y ago
    In my experience interviews are less effective with students because they rarely have relevant experience to talk about. At the mid level and above tests and technical questions become less useful, but they can talk about meaningful past projects. I don’t know of anything else that’s predictive without weeding great people out. PS: It’s odd, but I suspect a random process may actually work better because the great people actively looking for jobs are likely to be bad at getting them.
    • atupis 7y ago
      >PS: It’s odd, but I suspect a random process may actually work better because the great people actively looking for jobs are likely to be bad at getting them. Somebody should almost build a toy startup around that random process eg Chatroulette for hiring. that might make sense.
      • wongarsu 7y ago
        However you would either need a great process for quickly terminating bad hires or keep this strategy very secret. Otherwise word spreads and your hiring pool quickly turns from "random" to "every freeloader in the industry".
        • atupis 7y ago
          Yeah, you would probably add some weighted sampling to it eg overweight those candidates who have lots of Github contributions.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      • itronitron 7y ago
        'open-source contributions' might be what job postings are trying to capture with this ... presumably the longer a good developer is unemployed the more likely they are to contribute to open source
  • eru 7y ago
    Yes! You aren't the first to make that observation. Compare https://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/03/06/the-hiring-post/ https://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/03/06/the-hiring-post/
• core-questions 7y ago
  > I've heard it so many times about people interviewing others, as "(s)he is smart, passed all test, but weird, I don't like to work with her/him". At this point, it is systemic discrimination. No, that's a misnomer. Systematic discrimination implies the system itself codifies this behaviour - but instead, what is codified is _team fit_, which is often based heavily on intuition. Humans are capable of being good judges of interpersonal compatibility, and the best interviewers employ an appropriate amount of intuition in the process because only a limited interaction is possible and every bit of information available deserves to have some chance of being factored into the assessment. Let's face it: for neurotypical people, a lot of autists are very hard to get along with. Their behaviour is not always predictable in the way that we need behaviour to be in a workplace; and when more pronounced, their specific needs are not something that we want to have to address in our coworkers. It's good that small companies are often able to accomodate folks like yourself, but expecting big companies that more often than not are looking for cookiecutter, commodity employees that will fit the HR process lifecycle. If you need more input and aren't demonstrably going to produce more output than the average worker, from their perspective you're not the best choice to hire, period. Of course, I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who vehemently disagree with me, claim that it is in fact systemic discrimination to want something like "team cohesion", and will make you a protected class soon enough.
  • antoinevg 7y ago
    > Let's face it: for neurotypical people, a lot of autists are very hard to get along with. Their behaviour is not always predictable in the way that we need behaviour to be in a workplace; and when more pronounced, their specific needs are not something that we want to have to address in our coworkers. Or try it like this and see how it feels: "Let's face it: for white people, a lot of black people are very hard to get along with ..."
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • core-questions 7y ago
      Hey, if you want to make it a racial thing, that's your problem. I find people "go to the well" for this sort of argument when they can't actually argue with the real premise.
• icotyl 7y ago
  I had the opposite experience. I don't have Asperger's or ADD, but I'm shy and struggle with eye contact and small talk. I interviewed at about ten startups, and despite doing well on the technical questions, I got rejected every time. I began to suspect it was because of "culture fit" -- will this 35 year old introvert fit in at our frat house/office? I was getting pretty depressed after all that rejection, but I got a random call from a recruiter at a big-N company, and figured why not give it a shot. The interview ended up being more professional, and at the same time the interviewers seemed friendlier and less antagonistic. And I ended up getting an offer. In any case, I'm mentioning this because I went in expecting what you described -- that startups would be easier for me, as a socially-awkward person -- but that's not always the case.
  • stared 7y ago
    To be fair, I don't think that its only big companies that discriminate (e.g. too many are agist, classist, or have a bias against parents). Though, small companies vary. And even if one is biased one way, it's likely that there are some (as in "any") that are not. For social awkwardness - there are many kinds of that. For some corporate interview process may be not an issue. For others, a road blocker.
  • Leherenn 7y ago
    I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit". You describe it yourself as a frat house, which, I assume from the rest of your post, is not what you want. Work is not always only about output and skills, especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues. It says nothing about your skills, just that both sides would probably be miserable in case you were hired, so it makes sense to find someone who would fit in the mold, even if less experienced/skillful.
    • icotyl 7y ago
      Some had frat house vibes, some didn't. In any case, I think I'm pleasant and easy-going at work, and I do a good job, which makes other peoples' job easier. If someone would become "miserable" because I was hired... well, OK, but that might say more about their personality than mine.
• RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Weird may be a simple emotional feeling people get because they sense you will mistreat them. (likely based on previous experience) What I have found dealing with people that are Aspie/ADD (father and brother) is they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior to adapt to others. (even when directly told their behavior is not acceptable) This means that many social problems (like work interactions) only have a one sided solution, and this turns into a simple form of abuse acceptance.
  • Smithalicious 7y ago
    I know it's not intended, but this comment comes off as very mean. I don't know your father and brother, but that kind of assholish behavior is completely different orthogonal to having Aspergers or ADD.
    • RobertRoberts 7y ago
      This is the difficulty with Aspergers/ADD. They seem to not recognize that it's healthy and normal to call them on their bad behavior.
      • Nasrudith 7y ago
        That is a narcissistic thing period. When I do it I am justified - when others do they are assholes.
  • tarsinge 7y ago
    The problem is that if you are aspie not being awkward and rude takes 100% of your brain for conscious analysis, whereas for neurotyoical people it’s the opposite it takes a conscious decision to be rude. So it’s impossible for an aspie to change permanently while working.
    • mlang23 7y ago
      Which totally explains why some teams dont want them.
• ma2rten 7y ago
  Are you talking about big tech companies or non-tech companies? I have ADD and work at a big tech company. I know someone else who has Aspergers/ADD. I would say it's slightly easier to get hired at a big tech company compared to a smaller company for someone who is not Neurotypical. (Assuming both places are equally hard to get accepted at). In the company where I work we use a scoring rubric to score candidates. The final hiring decision is not made by the interviewers, but by a hiring committee based on notes from the interview. That makes it (slightly) less likely to reject candidates just because the interviewer didn't like them.
• eru 7y ago
  > Moreover, many symptoms od ADD are taken for laziness, sloppiness, or lack of motivation. Many symptoms of Aspie are taken for rudeness, ill intentions or trying to dominate (breaking a social rule => (s)he thinks (s)he is above it). To make matters even more complicated, in just the right dosage those faux pas can actually serve as countersignalling, and increase your perceived worth. I'm speaking from experience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling
  • stared 7y ago
    I've learned that as well. It felt weird that people excuse my social mistakes when they think I am dominating and don't care for others, but don't excuse it when I say "I am sorry" and explain that I didn't know (they assume wrong intentions + being caught red-handed + not admitting it). Comparing with autistic standards, a lot of neurotypical interactions is less about being honest, and more: building one's position in the social hierarchy. (I find that disappointing, but well - it is how the world works.)
• nullandvoid 7y ago
  I think "weird" is a bit of an umbrella term with areas of "weird" that make it pretty undesirable to work with said person. Do you believe there should be no other criteria other than strictly strictly technical competence when hiring? Some of the more unpleasant workplace environments i've had hasn't been because of lack of peer technical skill.
• darkwater 7y ago
  > Many symptoms of Aspie are taken for rudeness, ill intentions or trying to dominate (breaking a social rule => (s)he thinks (s)he is above it). Honest question: how do you find out if it's somebody with Asperger or just an asshole? I had a former colleague who maybe was in the spectrum or maybe it was just rude/uninterested all the time, and now I feel a bit guilty for him.
  • Nasrudith 7y ago
    Well the two aren't mutually exclusive any more than other personal traits. A guy in a wheelchair can still be an asshole. The big sign for any sort of social ineptness is remorse if they find out they accidentally hurt someone. Although that definition may also be somewhat values influenced. Asian people are often stereotyped as rude for instance because of different standards. A grocer just silently bagging your goods and only speaking the bare minimum might be considered rude but for them it is the norm.
• otaviokz 7y ago
  As a slightly above average dev in London (and I mean it), I feel that for many big companies the interview process always achieve on thing: to avoid hiring anyone who could really transform it for the better.
  • PeterStuer 7y ago
    That is because in a large company you are hired to support the fiefdom of a manager that wants to claw to the top in the existing structure, not 'transform it for the better'.
    • glouwbug 7y ago
      Yes because in his mind he already is transforming it for the better
  • antihero 7y ago
    IDK, I'm an extrovert and a senior developer, I've had mostly positive experiences with interviews, but I think you have to give people the hope that you're the person that is going to be able to make things better. I think except in the worst circumstances, people can be worked with positively and if you bring a certain energy to the workplace you can bring people around to your way of thinking and bring out their passion. Some people will dead weight no matter what, but they can be identified and let go.
  • scarejunba 7y ago
    The UK and EU (well, France is my experience) did seem that way a lot. US companies are way better.
  • michaelt 7y ago
    What sort of transformations have you been offering, that companies have been avoiding?
  • rhizome 7y ago
    In a big company, "transforming it for the better" is not a thing that one hire can do until years have passed. Sometimes it takes an entire career! So, at a big company interview, revolutionary attitudes are going to be known to be a pain in the ass. Not thought, known. A desire to fuck shit up "from the inside" grows to be less of a positive trait the larger and more inertial a company is.
• ggambetta 7y ago
  You might be interested in this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic
• growlist 7y ago
  The most depressing thing at the moment is that people with a bare minimum of knowledge, interest and competence with technology are infiltrating and being given desirable jobs because they meet HR's perceptions of a good employee, rather than being what the business needs. These people parasite themselves on the people that do the real work but don't happen to have a nice smile/good hair/preferred sexual organs etc.
• adj83 7y ago
  you succeeded in university though
• Agenttin 7y ago
  I'd like to suggest an easier way to say (s)he or her/him. Just replace it with they, they're, and them. It means the same thing but doesn't draw attention.
• nscalf 7y ago
  Just so I'm getting this straight, in a setting where your entire goal is to make a company want to work with you every day, it's discrimination to turn you down because you did not make them want to work with you? Listen, companies have their own cultures, and if you're not a fit to that culture, bringing you on runs the risk of ruining the culture they have been building and making their employees quit. I turn down every single person who acts in a way that convinces me I do not want to deal with them day in and day out, and I haven't regretted it once. Sure, we probably miss some good people, but we have a specific culture in place that we all enjoy, and I don't want to feel uncomfortable or have to walk on egg shells around my team. These cries of discrimination are getting a bit out of hand. You may just be rude in an interview, and that will 100% result in me turning you down. It doesn't matter much to me if you're an "Aspie/ADD" or if you just found out your wife cheated on you, I don't want you around me all the time based off the only data point I have. To blame the interviewer for your behavior, whatever the reason, is outrageous. I think interviews aren't the best way to find out if someone is a going to be a good engineer, but to be a good team member, you have to have good interactions with the team.
  • commandlinefan 7y ago
    I know it’s not a popular opinion in today’s environment, but I tend to agree with you… I struggled with social interactions when I was younger, so I worked on getting better at social interactions. I don’t know if I have Asperger’s or ADD, I just know that talking to people makes me uncomfortable and I always feel like I’m doing it “wrong”, but I’ve figured out enough patterns and templates to apply to enough situations that I can fool them into thinking I’m doing it the way other people do. Now, I’m willing to concede that it’s possible that there’s another level of “uncomfortable around people” that I can’t even comprehend (although I also wonder if I and OP are actually “normal” and everybody else goes through this, we just complain about it more). It’s hard for me to believe, but there are lots of things that are hard for me to believe that are nonetheless true. But even if it is, it’s beside the point. I also concede that there may well be people who, due to genetic unluckiness, are doomed to be overweight no matter what they do. They still can’t work as airline stewardesses because weight matter on an airplane, just as some baseline level of social interactions matter in an office environment. If there really are people who are genuinely unable to comprehend the difference between rudeness and politeness, they’re few enough that it’s not fair to everybody else to have to compensate for them.
• TheOperator 7y ago
  >I've heard it so many times about people interviewing others, as "(s)he is smart, passed all test, but weird, I don't like to work with her/him". I never really understood the point of affirmative action until I was told point blank repeatedly that my co-workers thought I was good at the work, but didn't like me because of what I couldn't do, and that getting hired & staying hired is about having co-workers like you. I've tolerated hostile workplace environments, abuse, discrimination, disclosure of medical information, and such just to cling onto a job because I couldn't prove most of it. I didn't think I could just leave the situation and get another job so I didn't want to make any enemies. Honestly one of the main things I have going for me career-wise is that this has happened so much people feel bad for me and pull strings for me. Discrimination is so easy. Just say somebody was a bad culture-fit. If anybody is different: disabled, poor, old, wrong ethnicity, wrong gender, ESL, then they obviously don't "fit in".