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When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested
- Clubber 7y agoHighest prison population in the world by both per capita and total number, and people get thrown in jail because they can't pay their medical bills. How much more corrupt can this country get? What do we do when voting doesn't make a difference?
- save_ferris 7y agoGet involved. Support local and regional elected officials or candidates that share your views on healthcare, the progressive movement is growing rapidly in the US for this very reason. One of the biggest problems in American politics is that everyone is caught up in the blood sport that is Federal politics while not paying attention to what's going on in lower offices. Yes, healthcare is and will always be a Federal issue, but it's never too late to get involved in politics at any level.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- lonelappde 7y agoSorry, but this is bullshit. When the government c disowns the basis for its legitimacy and starts teaming up with profiteers to imprison and kill people, the answer to fight back against violence with violence.
- bhupy 7y agoWhy does healthcare have to be a federal issue?
- _jal 7y agoIt theoretically doesn't, but practically speaking, you're talking about risk pools. Those work better when they're larger.
- bhupy 7y agoRisk pools in other countries work pretty well, and their populations are <= that of pretty much every state in the Union. Denmark’s population is that of Wisconsin. The least populated state (Wyoming) would have a larger risk pool than Iceland, which seems to be doing fine.
- _jal 7y agoSure. For that matter, some bigger corporations in the US choose to run their own. But it is just math - bigger pools have more resources over a larger population, and so are better positioned to survive shocks.
- bhupy 7y agoYou’re not really refuting my point...by that logic the entire world should have one big shared risk pool, it’s just math! My point is that you can have adequate risk pools at a lower administrative level (the states), while not having to deal with having to build up political will among a large, heterogenous polity.
- _jal 7y agoThat's because I'm not arguing with you. It is a complex topic, and the variety of "solutions" to the problem give us a lot to chew on. I don't personally think that's optimal - there are a number of problems US states have that nation-states don't. (Deficit financing, exclusion and latitude to make its own rules being larger ones.) Also, one cost of running "laboratories of democracy" is that some of them fail, and some of them are run incompetently or corruptly or cruelly. But if you like the idea of state level fixes, by all means pull for that. There is no single right answer.
- mlevental 7y agoI agree with you but this isn't a local issue. famously healthcare is under the umbrella of the interstate commerce clause.
- bjornsing 7y agoAs I read the OP they get thrown in jail for not appearing in court. Isn’t that very different?
- geggam 7y agoIf you dont have the money to pay bills how do you afford to get to court ? Being poor is illegal ;)
- true_religion 7y agoCourt is just a building in town. If you are healthy, you can just walk there. The bigger problem in this case is that the people being sent to court probably cannot easily walk there, because they are unhealthy. It’s effectively criminalizing illness.
- wbronitsky 7y agoThis argument is preposterous. There are so many reasons poor people find it difficult to appear in court. A huge, and very easy to imagine, issue is that poor people tend not to have time flexibility; with everyone screaming at them to pick up another job, how could they possibly appear in court as well? Another very easy to imagine issue is getting healthcare outside of this “town” everyone seems to live in in the above argument, could make appearing in court difficult as well. The argument that “all poor people are fat and ill” is not just lazy, but outright ridiculous.
- tbyehl 7y ago> Court is just a building in town. If you are healthy, you can just walk there. If you happen to live in town and that town happens to be where the State put the courthouse for that county. Plenty of counties in this country are bigger than Rhode Island -- not just in the middle of nowhere, either.
- spc476 7y agoTrue. I live in a county that is twice the size of Rhode Island. I work in a county that is the size of Rhode Island. And both counties are far from what you would call "rural" [1]. [1] For the record, Palm Beach County, Fl (main city: West Palm Beach) and Broward County, Fl (main city: Ft. Lauderale), respectively.
- hestipod 7y agoMy life was ruined by badly done, and even worse ultimately unneeded surgery. That privilege initially cost me many thousands, along with career and insurance going away, and the subsequent struggle to survive since has cost multiples of that. My entire future billed away. For a time I was able to avoid collectors because of a significant savings a frugal life had left me, but as time goes on you have to choose between medical care and other basic needs unless you want to go into a deep financial hole at a time you have MORE financial need like the people in this article. As a former provider, as a patient advocate and activist, and now as a person on the edge, I never saw anyone get out of that hole and it terrifies me every single day. I am constantly getting third and fourth party bills for huge amounts re things I did not consent to be sent away or billed externally. That's AFTER asking up front AND paying huge amounts for the primary service up front. These things come many months later and I can see one easily getting lost or not sent properly and me ending up in a massive legal battle over debt and summary judgements behind my back. Even with paranoid checking of old accounts and services they continue to mess it up and debts show up later. I was ruined by this country's medical business and ultimately it's going to be the cause of my death as I am at the limit of what I can handle in all regards. I tried to get out of the country for good to places I have lived and can get better healthcare, and have at least some quality of life with my remaining health and years, but ironically since I am so broken because of this experience it severely limits my options. I feel trapped and hopeless.
- loceng 7y agoMaybe post this on Reddit in /r/legaladvice - maybe there's a better subreddit - re: all of this? I have seen some seemingly helpful advice or links to resources that can help.
- t34543 7y agoTake your savings and move out of the country.
- hestipod 7y agoI lived abroad in the past. Had a much better life and healthcare. But now that savings is so small and my health so limited I cannot just "move". I wouldn't be able to sustain myself financially. There are immigration requirements I cannot meet. I would love nothing more to leave. But even then things are so bad with pain and health I would never have a good life, maybe just a survivable one in a more comfortable environment for me. But again, the consequences of what was done to me here has taken away the ability to immigrate as per usual. An amazing member of this site once offered to help me with his company abroad and I fought to make that happen but more and more health and financial issues kept hitting me and I couldn't make it happen. When even such an accommodative thing won't work out it robs you of all hope. Occasional rants, when energy and pain allows (the real killer), seem my only attribute at this point. The dying gasps of an angry man.
- geggam 7y agoDebtors prison is back folks
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ekianjo 7y agoOut of topic but they seem to be using film photography to illustrate that article. Medium Format if not large. Very nice to see.
- nitwit005 7y ago> His friend bailed him out the next morning, but at the bond hearing, the judge granted the $500, minus court fees, to the hospital. I know it's not the subject of this, but this sounds like it's probably illegal? He's seizing money that was supposed to be returned to someone other than the defendant.
- derekp7 7y agoYeah, that's the thing they don't tell you up front. When you bail someone out, you are legally giving them that money. So if the money is owed to something else (such as fines / court costs, or a legal judgement) those funds are redirected in the end.
- tomnipotent 7y agoDoesn't matter who pays the bail. This is why bounty hunters exist, to recoup lost bail when "customers" don't show up to court.
- wpdev_63 7y agoObviously it goes without saying, shop around. Fly to another country if you have to. Canadian/Mexican doctors are more than happy to take cash and will often charge less than half what they charge here. Obviously there's medical problems you can't travel for but more often than not you can. Also note that hospitals is one of the very few businesses that you have to get permission from other hospitals to open. It's a cartel.
- XorNot 7y agoIf this were as viable as you are implying, then everyone would do it already.
- keiferski 7y agoHonestly, in my experience, most Americans are simply unaware of viable alternatives. America is a sort of universe-unto-itself, where it's possible to live your entire life without knowing much about the outside world. I imagine China is fairly similar.
- fzeroracer 7y agoFlying to another country implies you have the money to front a ticket to another country, that you've had the foresight to get a passport to go to mexico (I guarantee if you asked many poor people if they had one, they'd say no) and that you can actually take time off to do said medical tourism. For a lot of people? A few days off means they lose their job and everything else. So they work through the pain or the illness until it becomes a severe medical emergency.
- SomaticPirate 7y agoGovernment funded healthcare on some level would help to alleviate a modicum of this catastrophe. I doubt it would be a magic bullet but medical debt damages society by incentivizing disaster health care instead of preventive care.
- Gibbon1 7y agoIf you wanted a small fix as opposed to my preferred solution of burn it to the ground as an example to every other shitty industry. That fix would be to require insurance companies to be the primary bag holder. Not the patient. AKA a the 'independent' anesthesiologist can't sue the patient, he has to sue the insurance company. At least in that case everyone involved has deep pockets and a strong hand. The reason I say burn it all down is medical billing would be considered outright criminal fraud and extortion in any other industry. Imagine your mechanic engaging in surprise billing. Well yes my bill of $2500 was just for removing and installing the transmission. The $15,000 is the independent transmission rebuilders fee.
- snagglegaggle 7y agoI agree. The idea is the insurance negotiates on my behalf. If they don't pay, I don't pay, and I don't understand how we arrived at the existing status quo.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoBecause not all providers are contracted with your insurance. If there exists an agreement between your insurance and the provider (I.e. in network), then the insurance company does pay for everything beyond the out of pocket maximum.
- XorNot 7y agoRemember kids, always have a friend at the door to the OR checking IDs and corporate affiliations while you're under to avoid unexpected bills! (The US system is literally insane)
- jdkee 7y agoIt’s almost like parts of the U.S. never made it to the 20th century... www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/opinion/alabama-poverty-sewers.amp.html
- 77pt77 7y ago> Judges don’t need a law degree in Kansas, or many other states, to preside over cases like these You can't make this up!
- hestipod 7y agoSo many people think judges are some elevated ethical beings like we imagine as kids. They are mostly lawyers who are appointed or elected politically. The administrative law judge for my social assistance applications was hostile and overtly political and I knew I was screwed in the hearing. To make it worse the appeal was sent right back to HIM for review. Of course he rejected the appeal and upheld his decision. One of those things everyone who I tell responds like its not possible...but it was...and nobody cared. I lost all hope in the systems after that experience.
- 77pt77 7y ago> To make it worse the appeal was sent right back to HIM for review I believe you. Nothing really surprises me anymore...
- giancarlostoro 7y agoI honestly dont find that an awful thing. There are places like small towns where people probably dont go to fancy schools to get fancy degrees. Are they going to be left without judges?
- 77pt77 7y agoGet them from somewhere else where they actually know the law. This is beyond outrageous!
- giancarlostoro 7y agoSome people become lawyers without degrees too. They study law just like anybody else they just dont run themselves into school debt. These too can become judges. Edit: I couldnt find the term but now I did. You become a lawyer by becoming an apprentice of another lawyer. I assume these people become judges. In some states the only requirement to become a judge is to have been a lawyer. My original point was to take the comment from the article with a grain of salt. It requires a citation.
- tracker1 7y agoI'm reminded of some lines from "A Christmas Carol." "Are there no workhouses? Are there no prisons?" ... It's wild how many changes to embolden debt collections happens in so many places, often snuck in by a few legislators that just don't think they'll get called out and generally don't. I'm lucky to live in a state that to my knowledge has a lot of protections in place and makes it harder to charge interest or sue over medical debt. I would like to see some billing revisions take place and make the majority of collections susceptible to review. Also, limit the rates that a facility can charge limited to no more than a 20% variance. Of course now that insurance companies don't act with a fiduciary responsibility, this also needs to change. Obamacare, as well intended as it is/was, has introduced some fierce unintended consequences. As someone who was saddled with a $138k set of bills (after insurance, before Obamacare), it's rough. I make decent money and still had to spend the better part of a decade working 60-70 hour weeks with a day job and side work to pay it off. If they made medical debt a tax credit, it isn't even a deduction most of the time, I'd bet there'd be more interest in actually adjusting the course. I would like to see the collective coverage for Medicare, Medicaid, VA Medical, and Federal Employee coverage combined into a non-profit medical insurance anyone can get a policy from with a single policy that can and does negotiate with fiduciary responsibility. Of course, then the congress would handcuff such an organization and make it unable to wield its' negotiating ability.
- tracker1 7y agoI'm not sure I understand the downvotes... unless those downvoting likes how things are and feel the medical industries should just run roughshod over the population.
- wglb 7y agoDownvotes (which you shouldn't complain about) often mean disagreement.
- tracker1 7y agoThere was a bit there... and without an actual reply, it's hard to know what part or parts someone took offense to or disagreement with. I'm fine with being down-voted, but would prefer to have at least some insight into the why. As it is, there was no furthering any discussion which is less than productive.
- alistproducer2 7y agoCan someone cc the Sanders or Warren campaign. This is ripe for national debate. Hard to imagine this isnt a good wedge issue.
- chrisabrams 7y agoSure will do that now.
- tracker1 7y agoI have strong feelings on how much medical reform needs to happen, and some ideas on how it can be done without socializing the system as a whole. That said, I don't understand why nobody has tried to organize protests outside the courthouse or hospital over this. 90 people in one session are plenty to leverage a pretty big protest. The black eye to the court or hospital in question could definitely lead to some changes. If there are other counties in OK facing the same issues, they could protest at the state level and probably get better protective legislation in place. I fail to understand how apathy has lead to such passive lack of any kind of action for reform.
- snagglegaggle 7y agoThe system preys on those that are isolated and may not have a support system. There's a similar issue with involuntary psychiatric care -- you're more likely to be committed (especially for no good reason) if you are alone and have no one who can get you legal aid on the outside. While in, they keep you isolated and too medicated to function.
- hestipod 7y agoIt's depressing (ha!) how accurate this cynical sounding stuff is. I have had to be really cautious as my usually avoidant and blaming family have threatened to try and have me locked up by exaggerating things when I have told them how severely depressed I am as a result of my situation. They don't care to help in any practical way and ignore me in general. They know I have no financial stability. They know taking such action would put me in five to six figure unrecoverable debt here. It's the same with "mental health providers". You cannot be open without fear of debt and losing more agency. It's why I occasionally rant online as I have no safe space irl. My mental issues are entirely side effects of my physical and financial issues...but those root problems are avoided.
- rfhjt 7y agoI think this condition is the result of knowingly doing wrong things, in the general sense. The right thing to do now is to start a campaign, attract attention and make an initiative to reform healthcare. You have nothing to lose.
- privateSFacct 7y agoA quick suggestion. If things are really this dire sign up for platinum coverage under a total in-network HMO like Kaiser. Platinum 90 0/10 as an example. If you have serious medical costs these plans are MAJORLY subsidized because they don't discriminate on pre-existing conditions. You CANNOT go out of network.
- DaiPlusPlus 7y agoThis doesn’t help if you have pre-existing debts. Also, there are no Platinum plans where I live (western WA), some counties, especially rural, low-density areas, sometimes only have one plan provider for individuals for people who don’t qualify for Medicaid - and they aren’t obligated to provide even a Gold-level plan. We need universal coverage, now.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoNo health insurance can deny insurance coverage for pre existing conditions since ACA was passed.
- wil421 7y agoRelevant government website. It’s been this way since 2014. No one in the US should be talking about pre existing conditions anymore. [1]https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/pre-existing-condition/ https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/pre-existing-condition/
- Animats 7y agoNo. No US health insurance sold via the ACA marketplace can deny coverage for pre-existing conditions. There are new "short term" insurance policies which are not ACA compliant, and do not cover pre-existing conditions. [1] https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2019/short-term-plans-large-bills-consumers https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2019/short-term-plans-...
- lotsofpulp 7y agoThanks for that info. I don’t understand why those are allowed to exist, and more importantly, why people buy them.
- whateverm4n 7y agoThis is happening in Kansas. Everyone feels bad, but not enough to actually vote based on the issue. That suggests it isn't really a major issue for them. Not only do they suffer, but numerous people in progressive states also suffer because right-leaning states like Kansas vote the country towards these types of repressive laws.
- dunnevens 7y agoI live in Kansas. We currently have a Democratic governor who is quite progressive by this state's standards. She's in her job because the voters rejected another 4 years of Brownback-style austerity. Brownback ended his term with ~21 percent approval. Currently, the state still doesn't have the ACA Medicaid expansion, but we're very close to having enough votes in the legislature. I'm cautiously optimistic about next year's legislative session. The voters do respond, eventually. But the ship is slow to turn. With the wave of rural Kansas hospital closures, farmers going out of business due to the tariffs, and stories like the one linked, Medicaid expansion is very popular with the voters. The pressure is only going to grow.
- dillondoyle 7y agoI'd love to hear what you think of KS-Sen race if you have been keeping up?
- dunnevens 7y agoI have kept up a little. The GOP establishment is scrambling to keep Kris Kobach out of the race, but he's popular with the sort of voter who shows up in droves to the Republican primaries. So, he's the front runner. Considering his loss in the 2018 gubernatorial race, KS Democrats are hoping he'll win the primary. He's as unpopular with general election voters as Brownback now is. Democratic side is full of candidates who would be moderate Republicans in any other state. None of them are particularly exciting. Though the most recent entry in the race on the Democratic side is a woman who was a leader in the state legislature as a Republican. She changed parties last year due to both Trump and Brownback. Changing parties in a very red state like this is an act of courage, or a foolish act, or the act of someone who knows what the long term trends are. She's the most interesting so far.
- black_puppydog 7y agoI'm gonna echo here what I heard on a podcast the other day: somehow "socialism" is a dirty word in the US, even though the US citizens absolutely love their socialism when they get it.
- Keverw 7y agowow, didn't know this happens over medical debt. I always thought just tons of letters and harassing phone calls. I know we don't have debtor prisons but if you are fined (say a guilty on a traffic ticket) and you don't pay, it can be considered contempt if you don't pay it and can then be jailed. I wonder if they are doing this for student loan debts, which some can't even be discharged in bankruptcy, and few states are suspending driver licenses over student loan debts similar to how they punish people who are behind on child support. Also crazy you can be a judge without a law degree, even if you want to a be a lawyer there's a long process without going to law school, like years of a apprenticeship. Feel like that opens up the judge to being manipulated by lawyers. Just seems like more evidence that the so called justice system isn't really just. Then the whole private prisons and prisons not really focused on rehabilitation, people get released and don't know what to do on the outside so they reoffend and get comfortable with prison. I guess in prison at least you get food and probably warmer than being cold on the streets homeless. There's some books I've been wanting to read on these topics, but haven't got around to it yet. Apparently people unknowingly commits three felonies a day, and of course being ignorant is a excuse either as you must memorize and understand thousands of pages of legal gibberish. Feel like our nation has veered so far off course than our original principles and ideals, and then if you watch the news... Very disturbing stuff happening all over the place. Really saddening. Plus I feel like our education system is dumbing people down, but that's an entire other topic. But not sure if any other countries are that much better, seems like everywhere has it's problems.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago”judge without a law degree” That one is really shocking. I don’t even understand how this can work if the judge isn’t highly trained.
- doggydogs94 7y agoAt the end of the day, somebody has to pay for the health care.
- taneq 7y agoIn civilized countries this is one of the things that we pay taxes for.
- novalis78 7y ago...indeed. that's why healthcare itself needs to be as inexpensive as possible. we need entrepreneurs working on making the care a commodity. And if necessary policymakers to defend that position.
- concordDance 7y agoTo make it inexpensive you'd have to deregulate it a bit... I'm a fan of people being allowed to sell medical services regardless of qualifications, BUT being required to explicitly state and advertise their (lack of) qualifications. Have more continuous rather than binary qualifications too. That would drive prices down for the poorest, allowing them to purchase healthcare, while not really affecting the rest of us who can afford the inflated prices.
- throwaway019129 7y agoFor-profit healthcare is a crime against humanity.
- ijiiijji1 7y agoI was in a coffee shop in Redding, CA that was apparently across the street from a bankruptcy court. Inside said cafe I was in line with a gal who had Stage IV cancer and was battling debt collectors to keep a car, house and the proverbial shirt on her back because the hospitals, doctors and insurance companies wanted everything while she was dying. This is what vampiric, grotesque, cannibalistic wealth transfer from the very poor to the very rich looks like in a third-world country without universal healthcare.
- grumple 7y ago> Hassenplug replied, “Well, this will end when one of us dies.” So he's going to continue to waste: 1) his own time. 2) the other guy's time. 3) a judge's time (and therefore taxpayer money). Aside from the moral implications of the method of debt collection itself (harassing the most helpless), this is basically a crime against everyone. Such a waste.
- t0mas88 7y agoI'm genuinely surprised this guy hasn't been murdered yet. If several defendants got to the point of committing suicide you would expect at some point one of them breaks and you end up with a mass shooting at the debt collectors office or a hospital or something? They have nowhere to go, totally hopeless situation, and there are a lot of them. So the probability of running into one with a serious mental health issue and a gun are non-zero.
- NTDF9 7y agoHealthcare here is so f-ed up, I can't believe we don't produce more medical refugees to other countries. All this shit show makes Mexico look like an advanced country.
- anovikov 7y agoIt keeps striking me. Really have no idea how this crap could be happening. Is that a consequence of democracy? But none of the other rich and democratic countries has any of that shit. Here is Cyprus we have same life expectancy as in the U.S. (ok 3 months shorter) and the healthcare is paid for by a tax of 2.65% of income (but it is charged on any and all income including those kinds of it exempt from any other taxes, except there is a cap of taxable income of 180,000 EUR per person per year). On top of that there are purely symbolical charges (say a doctor visit is usually 1 euro) probably only to keep track of these visits. Seems to be enough. And no it's not Soviet-style healthcare, and doctors are not poor - they all drive new BMWs, have good houses and stuff, and appear to be doing just as well as their American colleagues. What's going on there in the U.S. people?!
- w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago> Another woman said she watched, a decade ago, as a deputy came to the door for her diabetic aunt and took her to jail in her final years of life. Another horror storie from america. This rare gem mix otherwise common issues of debt, failling healthcare and jailing. It's 3 year and half I take interest of the inner working of american society, since Trump declared he didn't understand why the US didn't use its nuke more often. I think at every article I have reached the bottom... Yet everytime I learn something worse from another story. America is on the decline. Corruption, greed and madness is literaly ruining the country from the inside. No country will defeat you ; you will defeat yourself.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- InTheArena 7y ago“ More than half of the debt in collections stems from medical care, which, unlike most other debt, is often taken on without a choice or an understanding of the costs. Since the Affordable Care Act of 2010, prices for medical services have ballooned; insurers have nearly tripled deductibles — the amount a person pays before their coverage kicks in — and raised premiums and copays, as well. As a result, tens of millions of people without adequate coverage are expected to pay larger portions of their rising bills.” ACA has been yet another screwup on top of the cluster-Fsck that is the US health care healthcare system. Medicare can’t even force payment restrIctions or transparency. It’s not in politicians interest to fix it - they raise all their money by either running on medical reform(fixing it would take that issue and revenue stream off the money) or protecting it. Why else do you think that a supermajority under Obama made the problem worse? It’s time to form a separate states controlled mechanism for doing this. The federal government has proven to be either completely and totally inept, or corrupt beyond all imagination.